Dealey Plaza Detailed Map by Donald Roberdeau

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, Commendable, and much appreciated. (No offence meant. Scrub profit, but just recoup costs of a fullscale scan of West's best plat?) Then get someone to host it online.

? There are a number of times that I've personally had to shelve a thread of research for lack of a good copy with all levels and so on that the HSCA does not have. Many of the numbers (HSCA) are borderline readable. And as pointed out uses an arbitrary banchmark etc.

Miles, there's a need to triangulate and the good West fragments I have don't allow for it. However, given that Don's plat is demonstrably significantly incorrect then one can reasonably assume the mark is wrong. I'm patient and respect Tom going about the full release eventually in his choosen way. Meanwhile the HSCA plat is the way to go. Perhaps someone has a better copy of it? The (45mb) size is keeping the portions Tom has posted over time to scale and enlarging the HSCA. Unfortunately the detail (HSCA) doesn't get better.

Virtually, it's like working on a wall sized copy with all lines so thick that it introduces an error margin. Comparing that to a full size Dealey Plaza need finer detail. Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.

It sounds to me like things are progressing in the right direction. Patience.

John;

One does not turn the "tide" of belief over a short period. No doubt it took many years to convince the populace that the earth was in fact round, as opposed to flat.

In that regards, I have openly shared information, with little or no stipulations. (which obviously could not be enforced anyway).

However, I would request that the factual information which I provide, and which is not protected under my copyright, not be utilized in furtherance of ill-conceived assassination theories. (such as multiple assassins).

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc;

To the extent possible, I will openly explain much of the WC manipulations of the facts and evidence, and of course such manipulations (by a limited few persons) continued into the HSCA investigation as it was a "must" that the truth not be allowed to surface.

Not entirely clear here. Does Tom have a good plat ("Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.") which he has or has not published to the Forum? If portions of Tom's plat are available can anyone post a link? Thx

How does an accurate plat hinder the activities of unbiased researchers?

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc;

Mercy, what book is this?

Tom, I noticed in your Bio that you are a Combat Veteran of Vietnam. (Me too. B trp, 1/9th, 1st Cav. Div.) What do you say to a HALO jump with the plat?

Miles

Although there are many who would no doubt prefer that I make a jump (without benefit of parachute), I long ago ceased such foolish activities.

As former President of the Second Infantry Division Sport Parachute Club (South Korea); Instructor in the HALO Committee; an "A"Team Leader of an SF Team with HALO capability; and member of a HALO "Mass Exit" record group from 29,700 feet high, there are few things left in life to get that worked up over.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, to subject matter, I am in possession of copies of all the survey's as well as survey notes which Mr. Robert West had in his possession (which he could find), and thus have what is most probably the single most accurate information relative to Elm St. through Dealy Plaza, and the various assassination re-enactment data.

[Miles Scull]

Not entirely clear here. Does Tom have a good plat ("Tom's plat has the fine detail and numbers to give the proper answers, or to check/confirm/debunk previous answers.") which he has or has not published to the Forum? If portions of Tom's plat are available can anyone post a link? Thx

How does an accurate plat hinder the activities of unbiased researchers?

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc;

Mercy, what book is this?

Tom, I noticed in your Bio that you are a Combat Veteran of Vietnam. (Me too. B trp, 1/9th, 1st Cav. Div.) What do you say to a HALO jump with the plat?

Miles

Although there are many who would no doubt prefer that I make a jump (without benefit of parachute), I long ago ceased such foolish activities.

As former President of the Second Infantry Division Sport Parachute Club (South Korea); Instructor in the HALO Committee; an "A"Team Leader of an SF Team with HALO capability; and member of a HALO "Mass Exit" record group from 29,700 feet high, there are few things left in life to get that worked up over.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, to subject matter, I am in possession of copies of all the survey's as well as survey notes which Mr. Robert West had in his possession (which he could find), and thus have what is most probably the single most accurate information relative to Elm St. through Dealy Plaza, and the various assassination re-enactment data.

OK Tom,

That's real good.

Now, is this swag buried in a treasure chest in your backyard? If so, then you must have a treasure map for the chest. You know, like the ol' pirates' X marks the spot. Can you at least share that map?

[David G. Healy]

Mike Scull wrote:

That's real good.

Now, is this swag buried in a treasure chest in your backyard? If so, then you must have a treasure map for the chest. You know, like the ol' pirates' X marks the spot. Can you at least share that map?

He has, Miles -- on more than one occasion.

Edited June 11, 2007 by David G. Healy

[John Dolva]

Mike Scull wrote:

That's real good.

Now, is this swag buried in a treasure chest in your backyard? If so, then you must have a treasure map for the chest. You know, like the ol' pirates' X marks the spot. Can you at least share that map?

He has, Miles -- on more than one occasion.

John, Tom, TWIMC,

I am lost. PLEASE forgive me and my ignorance here.

Ok, so you are saying that Don's map is wrong, as well as Miles' Ciccone map , but Tom's isn't (mostly) and he's not showing it because we may use it to find multiple assassins that are not there in the first place, according to him?

If that is true, I don't understand why Roberdeau and Ciccone made their maps to begin with unless they were made to place witnesses. How can you place witnesses correctly on an incorrect map?

What map are we using as the standard?? Where is it??? How can we use it if we can't see it?

Kathy Beckett

My understanding is: Don's , Ciccone's and Marsh's are wrong in various ways.

Tom's (West's '64 Certified Survey Plat) is correct. The HSCA Drommer is correct but uses an arbitrary stepping off point, not from the established local benchmark that surveyors should start from, also it was done years later when levels from road grading and shifting of signs and posts have happened. So, it's essentially correct for that moment in time and therefore not fully appliccable.

Also it (HSCA) AFAIK is only available in a size that makes the reading of some of the data impossible to be certain.

In the two years I personally have been doing research, Tom has indeed posted many portions of the map. I've tried to grab as much as possible over time but I want all of it in one go, as fitting portions together introduces some (not much, but some) error, and often the missing bits are the ones one sometimes want right there and then*. When working with a survey one really needs ready access to all parts of it even when focusing on a small area as confirmations often call on data on any of a number of far off points.

Tom has the best data, and it will be on display shortly in a Library. And hopefully at some point available in full for all to use at any time. Then that will be the standard.

"How can you place witnesses correctly on an incorrect map?" good question.

*Personally, having assisted in surveying small areas, a matter of meters square for precicion placing of drilling points for bolts on factory floors for machinery that's still in transit, to cutting through miles of bush in a straight line for a farmers fence, to laying out new housing projects and then participating in producing parts that the Certified Surveyor can reasonably trust an assistant with, I know that often as one proceeds one needs to have on hand any number of seemingly irrelevant data. If one doesn't the whole thing can become guess work.

EDIT:: Date correction, thank you, Tom.

Edited June 12, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The West Survey Plat as produced for the WC in 1964 is by far the more accurate of any of the survey plats.

However, most of the information to generate this large scale map was actually gained during the 3+ days of survey work which was done for the US Secret Service & their 12/5/63 assassination re-enactment.

In fact, the two survey's are for all practical purposes identical (a few exceptions). However, the small scale SS Survey Plat (1-inch = 20 feet) measures only 22 inches X 28 inches in size.

Whereas, the larger scale WC Survey plat (1-inch = 10 feet) measures some 40 inches wide X 60 inches in length.

The items of critical importance are the actual survey notes from the SS survey work as well as from the WC survey work.

Most of which is not actually platted onto the survey charts.

However, with the known positions and elevations, one can, onto the large scale WC Survey plat, re-establish the control points from which Mr. West did all of his critical survey work.

He/his survey personnel took exact measurements from trees; points on the curb of Elm St; etc; etc;, to established locations onto Elm St and other points, to include angles and distances to the sign posts, etc;.

The larger scale WC Survey Plat also provides that information necessary to physically view those platted points which refer to frames 208 & 210 in which the WC altered the survey data.

It also makes it quite simple to visually see the misrepresentations of distances between platted frames of the film which ultimate demonstrate that the Vehicle speed (as computed) is clearly not accurate and in turn demonstrates manipulation of frame#'s of the Z-film in order to achieve what the WC wanted to represent.

[Miles Scull]

Mike Scull wrote:

That's real good.

Now, is this swag buried in a treasure chest in your backyard? If so, then you must have a treasure map for the chest. You know, like the ol' pirates' X marks the spot. Can you at least share that map?

He has, Miles -- on more than one occasion.

Pardon me. If Tom's important maps are on the record, where are they? Care to say, Healy, or, i.e., anyone (John?)? I am all ear(s) & dogged! See, Healy, within blue oval & overlook black nose:

[John Dolva]

"If Tom's important maps are on the record, where are they? Care to say, Healy, or, i.e., anyone (John?)? "

my understanding:

- Tom has them in personal possesson + accompanying records, notes etc.

- The governement received, but secreted and replaced with something different, copy(ies).

- Jack has indicated he has a copy(ies)

Personally I've only digitised fragments collected over time.

[Miles Scull]

"If Tom's important maps are on the record, where are they? Care to say, Healy, or, i.e., anyone (John?)? "

my understanding:

- Tom has them in personal possesson + accompanying records, notes etc.

- The governement received, but secreted and replaced with something different, copy(ies).

- Jack has indicated he has a copy(ies)

Personally I've only digitised fragments collected over time.

So you're saying that the map has been altered????

Followed the same path as the zfilm.??/

OK., Miles, with this new information, I'd just bet that your Ciccone map is perfect to use, as is my Roberdeau.(I love Don's map anyway, and yours is way cool, AND they match.)

When there is a big HUSH HUSH about an object critical to the assassination, and only a few own it,and are holding it back, who just happen to be proponents of another theory, it's time to reassess what is presently being stated.

Kathy Beckett

Agreed.

Hey , is Jack a LNer?

[John Dolva]

Don's , Ciccone's and Marsh's are wrong in various ways. They are all differsnt in significant ways. That's been demonstrated in the previous pages.

Tom's (West's '64 Certified Survey Plat) is correct. The HSCA Drommer is correct but uses an arbitrary stepping off point, not from the established local benchmark that surveyors should start from, also it was done years later when levels from road grading and shifting of signs and posts have happened. So, it's essentially correct for that moment in time and therefore not fully appliccable.

I found an online file storage site that allows large files.

The HSCA is here: http://www.mediamax.com/yanndee/Hosted/HSCA.zip

converted to lossless jpg and zipped up with winzip to about 2Mb

The problem with this one, apart from what's already been outlined, is that the various markers like lamp posts and signs are not as they were in 1963. So a proper independent research of triangulation, location of photographers and filmers and witnesses can't be done. Only the full release of West's will enable a variety of threads of research to proceed with a degree of certitude. Pick and choose whichever makes you happy, but remember that whichever one chooses, it will be significantly different from the others.

EDIT:: the link works now.

Edited June 12, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"If Tom's important maps are on the record, where are they? Care to say, Healy, or, i.e., anyone (John?)? "

my understanding:

- Tom has them in personal possesson + accompanying records, notes etc.

- The governement received, but secreted and replaced with something different, copy(ies).

- Jack has indicated he has a copy(ies)

Personally I've only digitised fragments collected over time.

So you're saying that the map has been altered????

Followed the same path as the zfilm.??/

OK., Miles, with this new information, I'd just bet that your Ciccone map is perfect to use, as is my Roberdeau.(I love Don's map anyway, and yours is way cool, AND they match.)

When there is a big HUSH HUSH about an object critical to the assassination, and only a few own it,and are holding it back, who just happen to be proponents of another theory, it's time to reassess what is presently being stated.

Kathy Beckett

Actually!

It would be best, provided that one is interested in anything factual, to understand and learn what is being stated first, prior to closing of the mind.

The "altered" data happens to be the Survey Data Box as introduced into evidence by Arlen Specter during the questioning of FBI Agent Leo Gautier.

CE 884.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a schedule which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 884 and ask you what figures are contained thereon.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 884 for identification.)

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map.

It contains certain positions marked as frame numbers. It indicates elevations and a column dealing with angle of sight from the frame positions to the window and to a horizontal line.

It also contains angels of sight the degree of sight and distances from these positions to a point on the top of the bridge, handrail height.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, that concludes the description of the general setting.

I would like to move now at this time for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 884, which completes all of the exhibits used heretofore.

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While the actual full size survey (which contains the unaltered survey data) was introduced into evidenc in a sealed envelope.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the tracing at this time, please?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container.

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, we will mark the tracing Commission Exhibit No. 882, and not take it out, since the cardboard represents it,

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is absolutely nothing which is "altered" on the West/WC Survey.

I have authorized another who posts here to provide that information relative to the alteration of survey data by the WC, which merely demonstrates the manner in which certain evidence was manipulated by "Specter & Company".

P.S.

I do not deal in "theory"!

[John Dolva]

"Are you are saying that Tom has West's map, but he's not releasing it yet???"

Tom speaks for himself, he has in past posts on this thread answered that question. AFAIK it will shortly be on display in a library in MS.

"If it needs to be studied, it needs to be studied.

We cannot have a standard that we cannot see. Surely you must agree."

Certainly I agree. This is a hindrance. I have a need for the full plat in order to do studies. Personally I believe that Tom will in time make everything available, but not because I or anyone else demands it.

"The more and more I read about this, as well as some other things, I am led to believe, (and I don't want to, but it's starting to look like it IMO) that this is all some kind of game where people try to 1 UP others. I am not clear about the purpose of this, and if this is true, it is truly sad."

Hopefully goodwill will prevail. There are conflicts that are unfortunate. There are frustrations that are understandable. Personally having been in the research of Kennedy assassination for about two years now, I've no knowledge of behind the scene histories and am not particularly interested in it either. IOW I take the side of truth with no alliance nor pre judice. Truth has a way of percolating to the top. Some actions assist this, other actions do not. That's all IMO. I still think there is progress towards a resolution. Some principals are yet to comment or provide input. That's their choice.

Various sans judice persons have done proper comparisons that show that the discrepancies are significant. See Chris' posts for example. The material is available for anyone to duplicate this. So it's outside the realm of belief and simply empirical.

[Miles Scull]

Hopefully goodwill will prevail. There are conflicts that are unfortunate. There are frustrations that are understandable. Personally having been in the research of Kennedy assassination for about two years now, I've no knowledge of behind the scene histories and am not particularly interested in it either.

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc; -- Purvis

Bernice et al., what book would this be?

Potpourri of possible explanations (or, something's loose in the gear box)

1.) Purvis would be agreeable to publishing the West map, except that by doing so certain unidentifiable persons would gain access to information which they would put into their books, which books might be promoting a conspiracy theory. Thus, Purvis would consider himself used as a tool of these persons & their bogus theory were he to publish West.

2.) The suggestion is that unscrupulous manipulators might distort & twist West's data. Why let them have that chance? Hide the map.

3.) There is something in West's map that, if it were disclosed, would harm the LN position. If the West map is accurate, then WHAT is of danger to the LN position? A mystery to be kept a mystery.

4.) Purvis is planning to publish a treatise on the assassination possibly based on West's map & naturally he doesn't want the CT persons vitiating & trumping his treatise. Naturally.

5.) If Purvis releases West then he loses his weapon to hammer CTs. Purvis can say, nope, you cannot prove that because you don't have the real data (West). I have it & you don't, so you are wrong & I am right.

Well, gosh, who knows where this will all end? A padded cell?

Edited June 12, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Hopefully goodwill will prevail. There are conflicts that are unfortunate. There are frustrations that are understandable. Personally having been in the research of Kennedy assassination for about two years now, I've no knowledge of behind the scene histories and am not particularly interested in it either.

Long ago, another highly un-informed person took it upon himself to publish in his book information related to the alteration of the survey data.

This factual alteration, which was entirely not understood by those responsible for allowing it's publication, was thereafter utilized to further the theory of multiple assassins, etc; -- Purvis

Bernice et al., what book would this be?

Potpourri of possible explanations (or, something's loose in the gear box)

1.) Purvis would be agreeable to publishing the West map, except that by doing so certain unidentifiable persons would gain access to information which they would put into their books, which books might be promoting a conspiracy theory. Thus, Purvis would consider himself used as a tool of these persons & their bogus theory were he to publish West.

2.) The suggestion is that unscrupulous manipulators might distort & twist West's data. Why let them have that chance? Hide the map.

3.) There is something in West's map that, if it were disclosed, would harm the LN position. If the West map is accurate, then WHAT is of danger to the LN position? A mystery to be kept a mystery.

4.) Purvis is planning to publish a treatise on the assassination possibly based on West's map & naturally he doesn't want the CT persons vitiating & trumping his treatise. Naturally.

5.) If Purvis releases West then he loses his weapon to hammer CTs. Purvis can say, nope, you cannot prove that because you don't have the real data (West). I have it & you don't, so you are wrong & I am right.

Well, gosh, who knows where this will all end? A padded cell?

Might I add one?

6.) Purvis is getting older and finds little left in life for enjoyment other then watching multiple assassin/body snatcher CT'er's chase either their on tail or someone else's tale, and thus would like to drag this out as long as possible in order to get the maximum "laugh milage" which can be obtained from observing grown adults make complete fools of themselves.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Were it that some of the "newer know-nothings" which continue to flock to this sight, had the ability and/or drive to actually conduct any form of research, then they would have found that the great majority of the critical information which is revealed by my possession of the West Survey Data, has been made available on this site previously, or else allowed to be published elsewhere.

As stated, JFK Lancer was allowed a single "one-time" publishing of that information relative to the altered survey data as well as the Vehicle Speed information.*

*I might add, that one could determine the vehicle speed problems merely by having conducted research into the WC documents (CE884) and clearly demonstrated the fallacies of this information without even having knowledge of the West Survey Data.

Anyone do this?????????????????????

Anyone here bother to read that evidence within the WC which clearly demonstrates the Z313 headshot occurred at stationing 4+65, whereas SS evidence within the report clearly states that the impact point of the last shot was at stationing 4+95???????????????????????

One does not require the West Survey Data in "Tom's" possession to recognize either of these significant evidentiary flaws within the WC Report.

I apologize to the "FNG's" for the fact that I have no intention of digging back through the multitudes of boxes in which I have again packed away most of the JFK materials in my possession, and most of which has been previously provided.*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*This apology is conditional in that the FNG/Grantee must clearly demonstrate that they are a serious researcher who has at least taken the time and effort to completely review that information and evidence as presented throughout the volume of evidence of the Warren Commission Report.

In event that the FNG/Grantee can not demonstrate a clear history of conducting separate, independent, and verifiable research ( watching re-runs of the movie "JFK" do not count), then all warranties of apologies, whether written or implied, are null and void.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although the attached information is readily available, as it was incorporated into the JFK Lancer article, as well as now also being on the Mary Ferrel website, it is, for absolutely the last time, provided again for those who wish to continue with the factual research of the JFK assassination.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Were it that some of the "newer know-nothings" which continue to flock to this sight, had the ability and/or drive to actually conduct any form of research, then they would have found that the great majority of the critical information which is revealed by my possession of the West Survey Data, has been made available on this site previously, or else allowed to be published elsewhere.

As stated, JFK Lancer was allowed a single "one-time" publishing of that information relative to the altered survey data as well as the Vehicle Speed information.*

*I might add, that one could determine the vehicle speed problems merely by having conducted research into the WC documents (CE884) and clearly demonstrated the fallacies of this information without even having knowledge of the West Survey Data.

Anyone do this?????????????????????

Anyone here bother to read that evidence within the WC which clearly demonstrates the Z313 headshot occurred at stationing 4+65, whereas SS evidence within the report clearly states that the impact point of the last shot was at stationing 4+95???????????????????????

One does not require the West Survey Data in "Tom's" possession to recognize either of these significant evidentiary flaws within the WC Report.

I apologize to the "FNG's" for the fact that I have no intention of digging back through the multitudes of boxes in which I have again packed away most of the JFK materials in my possession, and most of which has been previously provided.*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*This apology is conditional in that the FNG/Grantee must clearly demonstrate that they are a serious researcher who has at least taken the time and effort to completely review that information and evidence as presented throughout the volume of evidence of the Warren Commission Report.

In event that the FNG/Grantee can not demonstrate a clear history of conducting separate, independent, and verifiable research ( watching re-runs of the movie "JFK" do not count), then all warranties of apologies, whether written or implied, are null and void.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although the attached information is readily available, as it was incorporated into the JFK Lancer article, as well as now also being on the Mary Ferrel website, it is, for absolutely the last time, provided again for those who wish to continue with the factual research of the JFK assassination.

Had there been, in the past 43 plus years, a researcher who was diligent enough to actually research; review; study; etc; the WC, then they should have recognized by much of the evidence that the WC was a completely phony/staged re-enactment of the assassination.

The mere "Adjusted Position" alone should have told one that, even if it did confuse to the extent that they were completely lost as to what actually transpired.

These problems were located back in 1989 or so, yet until such time as I began to wave red flags and point to them, no one else seems to have demonstrated the research ability to find these problems within the WC solution.

As a former pre-engineering major, the alteration to the "Leroy" lettering/numbering on CE884 was quite obvious, (under a microscope).

So, the mere fact that I took time to examine the available (at the time) documents within the WC with a magnification glass, should be indicative that the "reduced copies" means of obscuring the evidence within the WC was recognized prior to location of the altered data.

And, just as it was immediately recognized that something "smelled" in relation to the manner in which CE 884 was introduced into evidence, the other means and methods which Specter & Company utillzed to obscure and obfuscate the factual evidence in the WC investigation, is also that obvious.

Provided of course that one also has some/limited experience with "shyster" lawyer types.

With most of the information now made available, complete with "Red Flags" attached and the roadway lighted as well as having established arrows pointing the way, there is little doubt in my mind that the "History" of the assassination of JFK will now eventually get back onto the correct course and thus "right" itself.

Those who continue to perpetuate hypothetical nonesense, based on nonsense and a complete lack of verification of information and facts, do as big a dis-service to resolution of the issues of the assassination as do those such as Posner and Bugliosi who are at the other end of the scale in ignoring what the factual evidence clearly establishes.

There is a "middle-ground" here, and as soon as it is recognized, then those who actually care can get on with assuring that events such as the WC are never allowed to happen again in the future history of the US.