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Clothing Examination--JFK's Shirt


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Robin Unger has recently posted (The Throat Wound) a photo from the National Archives which demonstrates the bullet entry through the back of JFK's shirt.

It is my hope that he will again post this photo here, and then perhaps some semblance of rational discussion can occur in regards to this bullet hole.

I would further ask of Robin, (in order to save my digging through boxes), that if you have the original FBI closeup photo that you also post it as well for comparison.

Anyone interested in a few facts----stay tuned!

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Robin Unger has recently posted (The Throat Wound) a photo from the National Archives which demonstrates the bullet entry through the back of JFK's shirt.

It is my hope that he will again post this photo here, and then perhaps some semblance of rational discussion can occur in regards to this bullet hole.

I would further ask of Robin, (in order to save my digging through boxes), that if you have the original FBI closeup photo that you also post it as well for comparison.

Anyone interested in a few facts----stay tuned!

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/8/8...vid_CE394-3.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d...vid_CE394-4.jpg

The easy way!

Nevertheless, neither of these photo's represent the shirt worn by JFK as ORIGINALLY RECEIVED by the FBI for examination.

These photo's represent the shirt as received by the National Archives, AFTER the FBI Laboratory had completed examination of the shirt.

And, as such, the bullet entrance hole into the back of the shirt of JFK, in this (these) photo's demonstrates the puncture hole after FBI Lab Technician Henry Heiberger had cut and removed a small area of fabric from the entrance hole in the back of the shirt.

The "straight cut" from where this fabric was removed can be observed at the top area of the hole.

It is also noted that prior to any destructive examination of the evidence, the FBI Lab also takes several photo's of the evidence (in this case, the hole) PRIOR to any testing and evaluation which may physically alter or change the condition of the evidence.

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Robin Unger has recently posted (The Throat Wound) a photo from the National Archives which demonstrates the bullet entry through the back of JFK's shirt.

It is my hope that he will again post this photo here, and then perhaps some semblance of rational discussion can occur in regards to this bullet hole.

I would further ask of Robin, (in order to save my digging through boxes), that if you have the original FBI closeup photo that you also post it as well for comparison.

Anyone interested in a few facts----stay tuned!

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/8/8...vid_CE394-3.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d...vid_CE394-4.jpg

The easy way!

Nevertheless, neither of these photo's represent the shirt worn by JFK as ORIGINALLY RECEIVED by the FBI for examination.

These photo's represent the shirt as received by the National Archives, AFTER the FBI Laboratory had completed examination of the shirt.

And, as such, the bullet entrance hole into the back of the shirt of JFK, in this (these) photo's demonstrates the puncture hole after FBI Lab Technician Henry Heiberger had cut and removed a small area of fabric from the entrance hole in the back of the shirt.

The "straight cut" from where this fabric was removed can be observed at the top area of the hole.

It is also noted that prior to any destructive examination of the evidence, the FBI Lab also takes several photo's of the evidence (in this case, the hole) PRIOR to any testing and evaluation which may physically alter or change the condition of the evidence.

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Robin Unger has recently posted (The Throat Wound) a photo from the National Archives which demonstrates the bullet entry through the back of JFK's shirt.

It is my hope that he will again post this photo here, and then perhaps some semblance of rational discussion can occur in regards to this bullet hole.

I would further ask of Robin, (in order to save my digging through boxes), that if you have the original FBI closeup photo that you also post it as well for comparison.

Anyone interested in a few facts----stay tuned!

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/8/8...vid_CE394-3.jpg

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d...vid_CE394-4.jpg

The easy way!

Nevertheless, neither of these photo's represent the shirt worn by JFK as ORIGINALLY RECEIVED by the FBI for examination.

These photo's represent the shirt as received by the National Archives, AFTER the FBI Laboratory had completed examination of the shirt.

And, as such, the bullet entrance hole into the back of the shirt of JFK, in this (these) photo's demonstrates the puncture hole after FBI Lab Technician Henry Heiberger had cut and removed a small area of fabric from the entrance hole in the back of the shirt.

The "straight cut" from where this fabric was removed can be observed at the top area of the hole.

It is also noted that prior to any destructive examination of the evidence, the FBI Lab also takes several photo's of the evidence (in this case, the hole) PRIOR to any testing and evaluation which may physically alter or change the condition of the evidence.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0026a.htm

One can certainly observe the detail of the "hole" in this exhibit. The WC was so nice to provide us with such outstanding photo's of the evidence.

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Robin Unger has recently posted (The Throat Wound) a photo from the National Archives which demonstrates the bullet entry through the back of JFK's shirt.

It is my hope that he will again post this photo here, and then perhaps some semblance of rational discussion can occur in regards to this bullet hole.

I would further ask of Robin, (in order to save my digging through boxes), that if you have the original FBI closeup photo that you also post it as well for comparison.

Anyone interested in a few facts----stay tuned!

I'm certainly interested both in facts, and in "some semblance of rational discussion."

So the facts are in evidence: There's a hole in the back of the coat, there's a corresponding hole in the back of the shirt, and there was a corresponding hole in the man.

All facts in evidence are entirely consistent with a projectile having been fired into the man's back.

The one person known to have probed the hole in the man's back said it was shallow, and appeared to have entered on downward trajectory at between 45 and 60 degrees.

My semblance of rational discussion on this set of evidence only: JFK was shot once in the back by a shooter somewhere behind and above.

What's yours?

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
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Robin Unger has recently posted (The Throat Wound) a photo from the National Archives which demonstrates the bullet entry through the back of JFK's shirt.

It is my hope that he will again post this photo here, and then perhaps some semblance of rational discussion can occur in regards to this bullet hole.

I would further ask of Robin, (in order to save my digging through boxes), that if you have the original FBI closeup photo that you also post it as well for comparison.

Anyone interested in a few facts----stay tuned!

I'm certainly interested both in facts, and in "some semblance of rational discussion."

So the facts are in evidence: There's a hole in the back of the coat, there's a corresponding hole in the back of the shirt, and there was a corresponding hole in the man.

All facts in evidence are entirely consistent with a projectile having been fired into the man's back.

The one person known to have probed the hole in the man's back said it was shallow, and appeared to have entered on downward trajectory at between 45 and 60 degrees.

My semblance of rational discussion on this set of evidence only: JFK was shot once in the back by a shooter somewhere behind and above.

What's yours?

Ashton

I'm certainly interested both in facts, and in "some semblance of rational discussion."

Based entirely upon some of your other postings, I personally have severe difficulty in accepting and/or believing that statement.

So the facts are in evidence: There's a hole in the back of the coat, there's a corresponding hole in the back of the shirt, and there was a corresponding hole in the man.

All facts in evidence are entirely consistent with a projectile having been fired into the man's back.

Were it so simple, one could merely state "JFK was shot in the back" and leave it with that!

The one person known to have probed the hole in the man's back said it was shallow, and appeared to have entered on downward trajectory at between 45 and 60 degrees.

Actually, if one reviews the facts and testimonies, they will find that the back entry wound was "probed" by more than one individual.

My semblance of rational discussion on this set of evidence only: JFK was shot once in the back by a shooter somewhere behind and above.

Which, anyone who bothers to read the testimony of the autopsy surgeons could have easily deduced!

Too bad that some can not stick with the subject matter (Clothing Examination--JFK's Shirt) without meandering off into other aspects of the evidence which are also not understood.

Perhaps we need some math major's here who recognize that each piece of the evidence is merely an integral part of the overall equation, which must be independently resolved along with each and every other seperate aspect of the evidence, if one is to understand the entire equation.

I do believe that it is often referred to as "Problem Resolution"!

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Mr. SPECTER - In the course of your duties have you had an occasion to examine the clothing which was purportedly worn by President John Kennedy November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER - And do you have that clothing with you at the present time, sir?

Mr. FRAZIER - I have certain parts of it. I have the coat, shirt, tie, and the bandages and support belt which he allegedly was wearing that day.

Mr. SPECTER - Would you refer at this time to the coat, if you please, which, may the record show, has heretofore been marked as Commission Exhibit 393.

And by referring to that coat will you describe what, if anything, you observed on the rear side of the coat?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was located on the rear of the coat 5 3/8 inches below the top of the collar, a hole, further located as 1 3/4 inches to the right of the midline or the seam down the center of the coat; all of these being as you look at the back of the coat.

Mr. SPECTER - What characteristics did you note, if any, on the nature of that hole?

Mr. FRAZIER - I noticed that the hole penetrated both the outer and lining areas of the coat, that it was roughly circular in shape. When I first examined it it was approximately one-fourth of an inch in diameter, and the cloth fibers around the margins of the hole were pushed inward at the time I first examined it in the laboratory.

Mr. SPECTER - Did any tests conducted on the coat disclose any metallic substance on that area of that hole?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I had a spectrographer run an analysis of a portion of the hole which accounts for its being slightly enlarged at the present time. He took a sample of cloth and made an analysis of it. I don't know actually whether I am expected to give the results of his analysis or not.

Mr. SPECTER - Yes; would you please, or let me ask you first of all, were those tests run by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the regular course of its testing procedures?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. SPECTER - And have those results been made available to you through the regular recordkeeping procedures of the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - Would you then please tell us what those tests disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER - Traces of copper were found around the margins of the hole in the back of the coat, and as a control, a very small section under the collar was taken, and no copper being found there, it was concluded that the copper was foreign to the coat itself.

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Mr. SPECTER - Taking 393 at the start, Doctor Humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the President's back or lower neck.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385.

Mr. SPECTER - Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat?

Commander HUMES - That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I might say, continues on through the material.

Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed by experts, I believe, at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the control area taken by the Bureau, and that the reason the lower defect is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations.

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Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed by experts

"Memorandum's" are nice! However, I personally would much prefer to see the FBI Laboratory Analysis sheets which are completed during evidence examination, and demonstrate any/all testing which was done during examination of the coat.

And, since absolutely none of those personnel from the FBI Lab claim to have examined the coat of JFK, then it would seem most unlikely that the WC; the FBI; or for that matter anyone else; is in possession of such evidence (unless of course it is a forgery), since the coat WAS NOT EXAMINED!

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and also that a control area was taken from under the collar,

Mr. SPECTER - What, if anything, did you observe then on the back side of the shirt Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER - I found on the back of the shirt a hole, 5 3/4 inches below the top of the collar, and as you look at the back of the shirt 1 1/8 inch to the right of the midline of the shirt, which is this hole I am indicating.

Mr. SPECTER - May the record show the witness is examining the shirt, as he has the coat, to indicate the hole to the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN - The record may show that.

Mr. FRAZIER - In connection with this hole, I made the same examination as I did on the coat, Exhibit 393. I found the same situation to prevail, that is the hole was approximately circular in shape, about one-fourth inch in diameter, and again the physical shape of it is characteristic of a bullet hole, that is the edges are frayed, and there are slight radial tears in the cloth, which is characteristic of a bullet having passed through the cloth, and further, the fibers around the margin of the hole were--had been pressed inward, and assuming that, when I first examined the shirt it was in the same condition as it was at the time the hole was made, it is my opinion that this hole, in addition, was caused by a bullet entering the shirt from the back at that point.

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It would appear that CE394 (the shirt) is missing two things:

A. A "Memorandum" as regards examination of the fabric surrounding the entry hole in the back of the shirt which correlates with the entry hole in the coat.

B. A "Control" sample location.

Perhaps FBI Lab Technician Henry Heiberger could help straighten out some of this confusion.

P.S. Do not get sidetracked by the discussion as relates to examination of the coat of JFK. (the coat has it's own story to tell) It is merely another of those EEI's

(essential elements of information) which are necessary in order for one to understand the "shell game" which Specter & Company (which includes JEH) played with the evidence and WC Testimony of witnesses, in order to confuse and mis-direct.

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Think Complex!----------And one may wander around in the rabbit holes and forest's of multiple assassins and body kidnappers.

Think Simple!----------And one just may discover that they are either "simple minded", or else they may just begin to understand exactly how Specter & Company (including JEH) managed to pull the wool over the eyes of many.

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Think Complex!----------And one may wander around in the rabbit holes and forest's of multiple assassins and body kidnappers.

Think Simple!----------And one just may discover that they are either "simple minded", or else they may just begin to understand exactly how Specter & Company (including JEH) managed to pull the wool over the eyes of many.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/d/d...vid_CE394-4.jpg

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When you manage to arrive at a point—any point—send up a flare.

Ashton

The "point" was long ago made!

That one may be too inexperienced to recognize, or too inept to conduct their own independent research, is however no excuse for not having taken the time to at least review the facts of the evidence prior to launching off into assinine discussions.

Experience would clearly demonstrate to anyone that the bullet entrance hole in the shirt (& coat) of JFK WAS NOT a typical entrance wound as created by the rounded nose of a 6.5mm Carcano Bullet.

Lacking ballistic experience, a serious researcher should/would want to question each and every piece of evidence for himself in order to understand the significance of that specific item.

The mere fact that one of the autopsy surgeons (Dr. Boswell) is on record as having stated that the wound of entry into the back of JFK contained considerable fabric from the clothing which had been carried down into the wound, again, should have sent up a "Red Flag on the Playing Field" for the experienced researcher, and at least created questions for the inexperienced.

1. Normal entrance wounds created by the rounded nose of a 6.5mm medium to high velocity bullet, (or for that matter any similar bullet) DO NOT carry clothing fabric into the wound.

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Mr. SPECTER - Dr. Shaw, I show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it was the shirt worn by Governor Connally, together with a photograph marked "Commission Exhibit No. 685," and ask you if that is a picture of that shirt, the back side of the shirt?

Dr. SHAW - Yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. However, in this particular picture I am not able to make out the hole in the shirt very well.

Now I see it, I believe; yes.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the shirt? Aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the back of the shirt itself?

Dr. SHAW - On the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater diameter. The whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to blood.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/..._Vol6_0053a.htm

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In fact, if one reviews all of the testimony they will find that the back wound of Governor Connally had NO fabric from his coat and shirt carried down into the wound of entry.

Which of course adds to the enigma as to exactly how it was that the bullet which struck JFK in the back, defied the logic of forensics/ballistics and carried fabric into the wound of entry, yet, the bullet which struck JBC in the back, even though creating an elongated/eliptical wound, did not carry fabric into the entry.

Lastly, the attached photo's demonstrate the entry of a 6.5mm Carcano bullet through clothing (a shirt), and demonstrates exactly why a normal entry does not carry fabric into the wound of entry.

The fabric is basically "pushed" aside as the spinning nose of the projectile forces it's way through the fabric.

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May as well take a look at an entrance wound or two, or three!

Top photo is of course the 4mm X 7mm entry wound into the back of JFK which had relatively clean cut edges, as well as the wound having considerable fabric from the coat and shirt having been carried down into the wound.

Second photo is a normal entry wound for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet.

Third photo is an entry wound for a 6.5mm "Wadcutter" Carcano bullet.

And, the bottom photo is a WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet which was modified into a Wadcutter round and was utilized to create the entry wound which contains the almost perfectly round wound of entry with the relatively clean cut edges. (Third Photo)

And, needless to say, not unlike a paper punch, the flat-nosed wadcutter bullet also removed considerable fabric from the overlaying coat and shirt, having "punched" the fabric out and thus carrying it down into the wound of entry.

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Most grade school kids that I know of down here in the backwoods of South Mississippi could have easily determined exactly which end of CE399 struck JFK.

Provided of course that they were given the pertinent information.

1. Oval/flat base of CE399 deformed to 4mm X 7mm in size.

2. Oval area of shirt worn by JFK "punched out"/removed by entering bullet.

3. Oval 4mm X 7mm wound of entry into back of JFK which had relatively clean cut edges.

4. Fabric from clothing of JFK carried down into the wound of entry by the entering bullet.

One would be remiss in not also mentioning that the removal of fabric from the coat of JFK by the entering bullet also, exactly like the shirt, is completely abnormal to the entry of a bullet striking nose first.

Even a secretary/administrative assistant who operates a paper punch should recognize what creates "punch-type" entry, whether in paper, clothing, or the human skin tissue.

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Since the back entry wound of JFK is elongated in width (horizontally) to 7mm wide, and was only 4mm in vertical dimension, one just might also want to question exactly why the wound is not elongated vertically, as even the HSCA recognized should be for a downward angle of fire.

Their drawing demonstrates what "should be" the norm for an entrance wound of a downward angle, complete with the "abrasion collar".

It would appear that we are back to the question of exactly what instrument do we have that measures exactly 4mm X 7mm in size?

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To cut directly to the chase of how I have interpreted Tom's writings:

CE399 was not magic by any sense. It was fired (may have even short fired, thus the "firecracker" comment from many witnesses -- my own comment, not deduced from Tom's writing), hit something (tree limb) which deposited sap, reduced rifling-induced spin, reduced velocity substantially, deformed its shape, then tumbled/knuckle-balled through JFK's jacket, through the shirt, and into his back ass-end first. The entry of a non-pointed object at lower velocity "pushed" (ripped) fabric from the shirt into the wound.

The depth of entry of the projectile was shallow, and in a downward direction, exactly as the doctors described it in their attempt to probe the wound. It probably fell out sometime during the Parkland events. CE399 was never acquainted with JBC or even with JFK's necktie...

The result of the back wound is seen as JFK emerges from behind the sign in the z-film.

However, Tom, you're a three-shot, three-hit, one gunman theorist, with hit #3 coming at the Altgens location, post Z313. When was JBC initially struck, and what the heck is he doing between Z212 and Z313?

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