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Clothing Examination--JFK's Shirt


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The starting point in this is me suggesting you had scaled the photos incorrectly. I've already, then and since, outlined how I think it should be done. In order to show, without any doubts creeping in through the use of different images, I pointed out that there appeared to be a cloned on piece of shoulder on the shirt. You insisted this was not the case and I looked again and found the shirt image distorted. You then informed that you had indeed done that and posted the original undistorted. OK fine, except it's not undistorted. Anyone can check that for themselves. So it was back to square one, how to show how you were miscaling without using different images.

We've resolved the autopsy one. "If not, I was wrong on that point." it is and you were. OK, thats fine.

Ego turns mistakes into lies. I can't tell you how to react to my posts. I simply pointed out a problem as I saw it. That's the only concept I introduced. I have consistently showed that the images are skewed and compressed. It's plain to see. A rip of the frames and a transarency comparison shows it without doubt.

So back to square one, I don't know what shirt/back scaling you started with, so I can't show the mistakes. All I can say is that:

"The HSCA full shirt photo has a two foot ruler. The enlargement of the small area around the hole has a one inch ruler. The back autopsy photo has a 30 cm ruler.

The HSCA full shirt photo is taken obliquely which significantly changes dimensions.

The back autopsy photo is of a contoured back which is leaning away from the camera so the dimension changes are like on the HSCA photo but in the other direction.

The WC full shirt photo is very much more a true birds eye view of the shirt.

I recommend scaling up to the largest photo which is the back autopsy photo. First enlarge the full shirt to where the ruler is half of the two foot ruler. Then take the one inch enlargement and scale that to an inch on the full shirt photo.

This one inch enlargement has clearly defined pin stripes. Resize the area at the hole on the full shirt photo to this spacing.

Now you have the back photo and the shirt photo area around the hole at the same scale. Everything away from this area is not to scale. So it's within this area one must find matches.

Here the WC photo is more useful as it has not been flattened out like the HSCA one. The folds and creases and discolorations are more as they were originally. There the matches in this area are to be found."

That's how I would do it and it would show that the hole you have is wrong. That's one thing. However the starting point was that I can show you how you made a mistake in scaling.

The reason for the regular grid in the background of the group of three is to show how the image is distorted. The middle one is the ditortion corrected to match an overlay on the HSCA.It's clear that the third image you posted in the gif is skewed and compressed.

Well, I can see you simply are not going to post an image with your version, and instead are going to talk it to death and continue with innuendo against what I did.

Although I haven't followed this up, it's recently come to my attention that some time ago (before I came along) you did some involved series with blood stains on the back and and on the shirt, pointing to the conclusion that the larger "D" shaped mark on the back was the bullet hole. Do I have this correct? Is this the "ego" issue that's actually involved here, and why you simply will not post your own anim of the elements at issue, but instead just go on and on and ON finding any way you possibly can to attempt to discredit my results?

Whatever the reason, go on and gum it to death. I'm not wasting another second of time on it. When and if you get around to putting results where your mouth is, let me know. (And I'm not going to hold my breath, because it's become pretty clear why you won't post a comparable anim, as I've requested repeatedly.) Till you do, just yap on.

Ashton

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Ashton, your results are what they are and you stand by them. Somehow an examination of that (peer review?) you prefer to be an examination of my work. Don't worry, I'll post on that as well.

So I take it that this is indeed your final word on my pointing out image problems with your gif?

I'm not looking to discredit anything or anyone. You're really making a simple issue into something more than it should be.

Like I said anyone, including you if you chose to do so, can see in a simple overlay that the gif shirt is distorted. So I don't know what scaling you started with. So I can't address the issue as it started before all this needless huffing and puffing.

Edited by John Dolva
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John, it's only out of my fundamental respect for you and your very impressive work in several areas of research that I'm going to respond to you on this message, and then, yes, I'm done chewing it to rags.

Ashton, your results are what they are and you stand by them.

Yes. Warts and all.

Somehow an examination of that (peer review?) you prefer to be an examination of my work.
No, John, not at all. I haven't even looked at your former work on that, as I said above. It just was brought to my attention, and I am trying to get some grasp on what this is all about. Because it seems clear to me that something else is at work here below the surface manifestations. I can't make any sense of it and I'm trying to. There's not a soul in this world who can't start with the two images I started with and create a very similar anim. If anybody is qualified to do just that, you are. And you won't.
So I take it that this is indeed your final word on my pointing out image problems with your gif?

Here is my final word on your pointing out "image problems" with my gif:

BackAutopsy-Shirt3-ORIG.gif

There it is. Take it or leave it. It's just too simple.

Any and all "image problems," real or imagined, raised by you or not raised by you, are fully within what I consider to be ACCEPTABLE TOLERANCES for what is being demonstrated. I don't know how else to get this across to you.

From my considerable work on this, I don't think that there's a chance in hell that anybody is going to find a way to line that shirt hole up with the upper dark spot without GROSS DISTORTIONS so far beyond any complaint you've managed to nitpick with my work that it will look like a Salvadore Dali painting.

And, frankly, I think that's exactly why you won't post a comparable anim.

I understand that my ACCEPTABLE TOLERANCES are NOT within YOUR acceptable tolerances. Get the idea that nobody is stopping you from doing your own version that IS within your acceptable tolerances. Why won't you just do that, John, and quit trying to prod me to do something I have absolutely no interest in doing to YOUR specification? Why, John? You obviously, from your earlier posted gif, have already done the work to the HSCA shirt to the exact dimensions and to your satisfaction. So WHY won't you just take the simple next step and show your superior version of the shirt overlaid on the back?

I'm not looking to discredit anything or anyone.
Well, then, I sure don't ever want to be on the receiving end when you are trying. That must be a party.
You're really making a simple issue into something more than it should be.

Ummm, no, John, I'm not the one introducing all the irrelevant complexity. Here's the entirety of my simplicity on it:

BackAutopsy-Shirt3-ORIG.gif

So I can't address the issue as it started before all this needless huffing and puffing.

:rolleyes:

Come on, John. What is this really all about? Yes: it's just too simple for all this needless huffing and puffing.

Ashton

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These are reasons for posting and not posting that belong to you, Ashton.

It seems to me that your work is beyond scrutiny and somehow inviolate. If so, fair enough, your choice.

__________

(separately)

Here is a suggestion on the blood patterns on the body and on the shirt that may aid in locating the bullet hole. (I hope this analysis undergoes rigorous scrutiny and critique.)

one step at a time:

To lay the basis of it and to provide a firm foundation for further steps here is a collage of male backs. The only one for anatomic study that seems to serve the purpose is the middle pair which unfortunately is poor in resolution. The other two are from beachcrowd photos.

There are (I think good features visible on the autopsy photo that match those on a stadard back.

The lower inner corner of the shoulder blade and the upper outer edge which shows as plane changes hence different shadows. (yellow)

In the lower trunk are the upper outer hip bones and the musculature and topography of the small of the back.(blue)

In betwen this lies the rest of the back.

Realising that Kennedy's back is angled away from the camera, exept for the top area of shoulderblades which is pretty much direcly facing the camera and the head and neck angled towards the camera, it's possible to slice the photo into three basic parts and locate them and then get a correct placement for the blood run down the back.(purple)

This then provides a rough model on which the shirt can be located

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Truth by popular acclaim. Wonderful!!! A strangely pervasive notion. If reality ultimately was determined by a vote we would live in a very surreally morphing world like that seen in the curved mirrors in a funhouse.

For non members:

aligning the body according to description above:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh10.jpg

scaling the components to the same scale around the hole area:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh11.jpg

this image is very large because the small closeup of the hole loses definiton if reduced to the size of the HSCA photo. So, the HSCA photo is enlarged.

The ruler is cut out and put aside.

The hole closeup resized to the inch scale on this ruler.

The hole placed over the hole in the full shirt and the shirts stripe spacing matched to that of the closeup.

Now the ruler of the HSCA photo is larger. The spacing of the stripes in the tail of the shirt is greater. This is because the photo is taken obliquely. Hence the saving of the ruler separately.

The WC shirt photo is enlarged to match the closeup stripe spacing. This spacing is maintained in the tail, telling us that the WC shirt is more reliable as a guide to where the various features on the shirt really are.

The Back Autopsy photo is scaled to match the saved cutout ruler.

As the ruler rests on the skin at the site of the wound we can now see that the area around the wound on the autopsy photo and the area around the hole on the shirt photos are all sized correctly.

On the WC shirt photo one can trust most of it to be correct.

On the HSCA photo only a stripe in the horizontal across the hole area is correct.

On the autopsy photo only an area around the wound is correct.

So only an area around the wound is correct for all images.

___________________________

The next thing to keep in mind is that the shirt is spread out flat in both photos.

On the HSCA photo the shirt is cleaned and flattened out a lot more than the WC photo.

The WC photo has the shirt a lot more like it was when taken off Kennedy. The dried blood and how it has warped the fabric, and the various creases are more there. The fact that it's hard to see where the hole is is a bonus. It means one need not be influenced by any desire to have the hole match anything, only to match the shirt on the body and only then see where the hole is.

These are the ingredients as I understand they should be in order to make a correct determination of what part on the back lines up with the hole on the shirt .

Edited by John Dolva
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Truth by popular acclaim. Wonderful!!! A strangely pervasive notion. If reality ultimately was determined by a vote we would live in a very surreally morphing world like that seen in the curved mirrors in a funhouse.

Ayup. Of course, in some barbaric locales and settings and circumstances, they refer to such a process as "a jury." Very bizarre concept.

These are the ingredients as I understand they should be in order to make a correct determination of what part on the back lines up with the hole on the shirt .

Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I got my buttered popcorn and Junior Mints and a big ol' Coke, and keep waiting for the movie to start. When are the previews going to be over?

Ashton

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Truth by popular acclaim. Wonderful!!! A strangely pervasive notion. If reality ultimately was determined by a vote we would live in a very surreally morphing world like that seen in the curved mirrors in a funhouse.

For non members:

aligning the body according to description above:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh10.jpg

scaling the components to the same scale around the hole area:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh11.jpg

this image is very large because the small closeup of the hole loses definiton if reduced to the size of the HSCA photo. So, the HSCA photo is enlarged.

The ruler is cut out and put aside.

The hole closeup resized to the inch scale on this ruler.

The hole placed over the hole in the full shirt and the shirts stripe spacing matched to that of the closeup.

Now the ruler of the HSCA photo is larger. The spacing of the stripes in the tail of the shirt is greater. This is because the photo is taken obliquely. Hence the saving of the ruler separately.

The WC shirt photo is enlarged to match the closeup stripe spacing. This spacing is maintained in the tail, telling us that the WC shirt is more reliable as a guide to where the various features on the shirt really are.

The Back Autopsy photo is scaled to match the saved cutout ruler.

As the ruler rests on the skin at the site of the wound we can now see that the area around the wound on the autopsy photo and the area around the hole on the shirt photos are all sized correctly.

On the WC shirt photo one can trust most of it to be correct.

On the HSCA photo only a stripe in the horizontal across the hole area is correct.

On the autopsy photo only an area around the wound is correct.

So only an area around the wound is correct for all images.

___________________________

The next thing to keep in mind is that the shirt is spread out flat in both photos.

On the HSCA photo the shirt is cleaned and flattened out a lot more than the WC photo.

The WC photo has the shirt a lot more like it was when taken off Kennedy. The dried blood and how it has warped the fabric, and the various creases are more there. The fact that it's hard to see where the hole is is a bonus. It means one need not be influenced by any desire to have the hole match anything, only to match the shirt on the body and only then see where the hole is.

These are the ingredients as I understand they should be in order to make a correct determination of what part on the back lines up with the hole on the shirt .

John;

Might I advise that you not allow yourself to become goaded into presentation of all of your frequently excellent work without some form of copyright protection.

As you will find on this subject matter, there are many, many, who would like nothing better than to profit from or lay claim to the works of others.

This is especially true of many who seem to lack the capability for independent factual research.

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Truth by popular acclaim. Wonderful!!! A strangely pervasive notion. If reality ultimately was determined by a vote we would live in a very surreally morphing world like that seen in the curved mirrors in a funhouse.

For non members:

aligning the body according to description above:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh10.jpg

scaling the components to the same scale around the hole area:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh11.jpg

this image is very large because the small closeup of the hole loses definiton if reduced to the size of the HSCA photo. So, the HSCA photo is enlarged.

The ruler is cut out and put aside.

The hole closeup resized to the inch scale on this ruler.

The hole placed over the hole in the full shirt and the shirts stripe spacing matched to that of the closeup.

Now the ruler of the HSCA photo is larger. The spacing of the stripes in the tail of the shirt is greater. This is because the photo is taken obliquely. Hence the saving of the ruler separately.

The WC shirt photo is enlarged to match the closeup stripe spacing. This spacing is maintained in the tail, telling us that the WC shirt is more reliable as a guide to where the various features on the shirt really are.

The Back Autopsy photo is scaled to match the saved cutout ruler.

As the ruler rests on the skin at the site of the wound we can now see that the area around the wound on the autopsy photo and the area around the hole on the shirt photos are all sized correctly.

On the WC shirt photo one can trust most of it to be correct.

On the HSCA photo only a stripe in the horizontal across the hole area is correct.

On the autopsy photo only an area around the wound is correct.

So only an area around the wound is correct for all images.

___________________________

The next thing to keep in mind is that the shirt is spread out flat in both photos.

On the HSCA photo the shirt is cleaned and flattened out a lot more than the WC photo.

The WC photo has the shirt a lot more like it was when taken off Kennedy. The dried blood and how it has warped the fabric, and the various creases are more there. The fact that it's hard to see where the hole is is a bonus. It means one need not be influenced by any desire to have the hole match anything, only to match the shirt on the body and only then see where the hole is.

These are the ingredients as I understand they should be in order to make a correct determination of what part on the back lines up with the hole on the shirt .

John;

Might I advise that you not allow yourself to become goaded into presentation of all of your frequently excellent work without some form of copyright protection.

As you will find on this subject matter, there are many, many, who would like nothing better than to profit from or lay claim to the works of others.

This is especially true of many who seem to lack the capability for independent factual research.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would like to have identified for the record three articles on which I have placed Commission Exhibits Nos. 393 being the coat worn by the President, 394 being the shirt, and 395 being the President's tie, and at this time move for their admission into evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The articles of clothing referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 393, 394 and 395 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER - Taking 393 at the start, Doctor Humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the President's back or lower neck.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385.

Mr. SPECTER - Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat?

Commander HUMES - That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I might say, continues on through the material.

Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed by experts, I believe, at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the control area taken by the Bureau, and that the reason the lower defect is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, does the one which you have described as the entry of the bullet go all the way through?

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes through both layers.

Mr. SPECTER - How about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through?

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait a minute, excuse me it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below.

Mr. SPECTER - Does the upper one go all the way through in the same course?

Commander HUMES - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Through the inner side as it went through the outer side?

Commander HUMES - No, in an irregular fashion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I had a spectrographer run an analysis of a portion of the hole which accounts for its being slightly enlarged at the present time. He took a sample of cloth and made an analysis of it. I don't know actually whether I am expected to give the results of his analysis or not.

Mr. SPECTER - Yes; would you please, or let me ask you first of all, were those tests run by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the regular course of its testing procedures?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. SPECTER - And have those results been made available to you through the regular recordkeeping procedures of the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - Would you then please tell us what those tests disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER - Traces of copper were found around the margins of the hole in the back of the coat, and as a control, a very small section under the collar was taken, and no copper being found there, it was concluded that the copper was foreign to the coat itself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an old acquaintence once said: "Houston, we have a problem!"

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Truth by popular acclaim. Wonderful!!! A strangely pervasive notion. If reality ultimately was determined by a vote we would live in a very surreally morphing world like that seen in the curved mirrors in a funhouse.

For non members:

aligning the body according to description above:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh10.jpg

scaling the components to the same scale around the hole area:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/yanndee/sh11.jpg

this image is very large because the small closeup of the hole loses definiton if reduced to the size of the HSCA photo. So, the HSCA photo is enlarged.

The ruler is cut out and put aside.

The hole closeup resized to the inch scale on this ruler.

The hole placed over the hole in the full shirt and the shirts stripe spacing matched to that of the closeup.

Now the ruler of the HSCA photo is larger. The spacing of the stripes in the tail of the shirt is greater. This is because the photo is taken obliquely. Hence the saving of the ruler separately.

The WC shirt photo is enlarged to match the closeup stripe spacing. This spacing is maintained in the tail, telling us that the WC shirt is more reliable as a guide to where the various features on the shirt really are.

The Back Autopsy photo is scaled to match the saved cutout ruler.

As the ruler rests on the skin at the site of the wound we can now see that the area around the wound on the autopsy photo and the area around the hole on the shirt photos are all sized correctly.

On the WC shirt photo one can trust most of it to be correct.

On the HSCA photo only a stripe in the horizontal across the hole area is correct.

On the autopsy photo only an area around the wound is correct.

So only an area around the wound is correct for all images.

___________________________

The next thing to keep in mind is that the shirt is spread out flat in both photos.

On the HSCA photo the shirt is cleaned and flattened out a lot more than the WC photo.

The WC photo has the shirt a lot more like it was when taken off Kennedy. The dried blood and how it has warped the fabric, and the various creases are more there. The fact that it's hard to see where the hole is is a bonus. It means one need not be influenced by any desire to have the hole match anything, only to match the shirt on the body and only then see where the hole is.

These are the ingredients as I understand they should be in order to make a correct determination of what part on the back lines up with the hole on the shirt .

John;

Might I advise that you not allow yourself to become goaded into presentation of all of your frequently excellent work without some form of copyright protection.

As you will find on this subject matter, there are many, many, who would like nothing better than to profit from or lay claim to the works of others.

This is especially true of many who seem to lack the capability for independent factual research.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Commission, I would like to have identified for the record three articles on which I have placed Commission Exhibits Nos. 393 being the coat worn by the President, 394 being the shirt, and 395 being the President's tie, and at this time move for their admission into evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.

(The articles of clothing referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 393, 394 and 395 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER - Taking 393 at the start, Doctor Humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the President's back or lower neck.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. It is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at Point C on Exhibit 385.

Mr. SPECTER - Would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately 6 inches below the top of the collar, and 2 inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat?

Commander HUMES - That is approximately correct, sir. This defect, I might say, continues on through the material.

Attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed by experts, I believe, at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the control area taken by the Bureau, and that the reason the lower defect is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, does the one which you have described as the entry of the bullet go all the way through?

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes through both layers.

Mr. SPECTER - How about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through?

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; it goes all the way through. It is not--wait a minute, excuse me it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below.

Mr. SPECTER - Does the upper one go all the way through in the same course?

Commander HUMES - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Through the inner side as it went through the outer side?

Commander HUMES - No, in an irregular fashion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. I had a spectrographer run an analysis of a portion of the hole which accounts for its being slightly enlarged at the present time. He took a sample of cloth and made an analysis of it. I don't know actually whether I am expected to give the results of his analysis or not.

Mr. SPECTER - Yes; would you please, or let me ask you first of all, were those tests run by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the regular course of its testing procedures?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. SPECTER - And have those results been made available to you through the regular recordkeeping procedures of the FBI?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - Would you then please tell us what those tests disclose?

Mr. FRAZIER - Traces of copper were found around the margins of the hole in the back of the coat, and as a control, a very small section under the collar was taken, and no copper being found there, it was concluded that the copper was foreign to the coat itself.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an old acquaintence once said: "Houston, we have a problem!"

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When comparing the horizontal and vertical dimensions of the gif shirt to the autopsy photo the distortion amounts to a difference in scale of

+ 2.5% in the vertical

- 2.5% in the horizontal

7 degrees anticlockwise

The law's an ass. The vast multitude of wrongfully convicted attest to that. The notion that jury trial is precise is a falsehood. It may attempt to be, that's all, nothing more.

Fortunately empirical measurements are not subject to jury trial. Unlike legal appeals that may or not overturn a jury judgenment, all it ultimately takes is logic to change course.

"esteemed coleagues, chairperson, this court judgement proves that the distance you have all this time through history thought to be 30 cm is in fact 30.8 cm. However, heretics in timbuktoo are not accepting this and are perversely spreading the false rumour that all the rest of the world maintains it to still be 30 cm's." Unintelligent redesign?

Ashton,the notion that I have stated I will produce an animation is yours entirely. As is the notion that I think you are a xxxx. As is the the suggestion of what my motivation is for doing this. The only thing of interest to me is to find out what the truth is, and if the truth is contrary to anything I believe, then I want to know so I can adjust my position. Personality and ego has no place in this process. On the contrary, it's a hindrance. It's nice to have people say nice things to me and it's not nice when they don't. Once I get over either I get back on track. Truth is not nice, nor is it nice, it just is. To paraphrase Lennon: truth is what happens while you're busy polishing your ego.

Tom, my take on this is that this is a murder investigation. One thing that continually creates problems is the inaccessibility of good data unless one wishes to pay for what seems to me should be public property. This is a personal choice of mine to not seek any profit from this. Sharing with and learning from others is an important thing.

(Are you saying you knew J Swigart and the crew of Apollo 13? Reminds me of my childhood dream of being an austronaut.)

___________________________________

Back on track:

Some further considerations re the shirt shape:

http://ebulfin.myby.co.uk/medical/blood/blood.html

"Platelets are irregularly-shaped, colorless bodies that are present in blood. Their sticky surface lets them, along with other substances, form clots to stop bleeding.

When bleeding from a wound suddenly occurs, the platelets gather at the wound and attempt to block the blood flow. The mineral calcium, vitamin K, and a protein called fibrinogen help the platelets form a clot.

A clot begins to form when the blood is exposed to air. The platelets sense the presence of air and begin to break apart. They react with the fibrinogen to begin forming fibrin, which resembles tiny threads. The fibrin threads then begin to form a web-like mesh that traps the blood cells within it. This mesh of blood cells hardens as it dries, forming a clot, or "scab."

Clot retraction:

"tightening" of clot

contraction of platelets trapped within clot shrinks fibrin meshwork, pulling edges of damaged vessel closer together"

IOW blood shrinks when it dries.

Blood also hardens when it dries. These body products including tissue have remarkable glue properties. We all can experience this when cleaning up congealed blood or when pulling bandage off a wound. The white house staff saw this when trying to clean up the Limo.

So, the heavily blood soaked part of the shirt which includes the area of the shirt hole, holds its shape much more than the unbloodied areas.

This clotting, or thromboplastia, is very fast where exposed to air. Less than a minute and more like 40 seconds.

The shirt, where it has stuck to the back, is unlikely to be stretched away from there. Another reason to use the WC image.

Edited by John Dolva
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When comparing the horizontal and vertical dimensions of the gif shirt to the autopsy photo the distortion amounts to a difference in scale of

+ 2.5% in the vertical

- 2.5% in the horizontal

7 degrees anticlockwise

The law's an ass. The vast multitude of wrongfully convicted attest to that. The notion that jury trial is precise is a falsehood. It may attempt to be, that's all, nothing more.

Fortunately empirical measurements are not subject to jury trial. Unlike legal appeals that may or not overturn a jury judgenment, all it ultimately takes is logic to change course.

"esteemed coleagues, chairperson, this court judgement proves that the distance you have all this time through history thought to be 30 cm is in fact 30.8 cm. However, heretics in timbuktoo are not accepting this and are perversely spreading the false rumour that all the rest of the world maintains it to still be 30 cm's." Unintelligent redesign?

Ashton,the notion that I have stated I will produce an animation is yours entirely. As is the notion that I think you are a xxxx. As is the the suggestion of what my motivation is for doing this. The only thing of interest to me is to find out what the truth is, and if the truth is contrary to anything I believe, then I want to know so I can adjust my position. Personality and ego has no place in this process. On the contrary, it's a hindrance. It's nice to have people say nice things to me and it's not nice when they don't. Once I get over either I get back on track. Truth is not nice, nor is it nice, it just is. To paraphrase Lennon: truth is what happens while you're busy polishing your ego.

Tom, my take on this is that this is a murder investigation. One thing that continually creates problems is the inaccessibility of good data unless one wishes to pay for what seems to me should be public property. This is a personal choice of mine to not seek any profit from this. Sharing with and learning from others is an important thing.

(Are you saying you knew J Swigart and the crew of Apollo 13? Reminds me of my childhood dream of being an austronaut.)

___________________________________

Back on track:

Some further considerations re the shirt shape:

http://ebulfin.myby.co.uk/medical/blood/blood.html

"Platelets are irregularly-shaped, colorless bodies that are present in blood. Their sticky surface lets them, along with other substances, form clots to stop bleeding.

When bleeding from a wound suddenly occurs, the platelets gather at the wound and attempt to block the blood flow. The mineral calcium, vitamin K, and a protein called fibrinogen help the platelets form a clot.

A clot begins to form when the blood is exposed to air. The platelets sense the presence of air and begin to break apart. They react with the fibrinogen to begin forming fibrin, which resembles tiny threads. The fibrin threads then begin to form a web-like mesh that traps the blood cells within it. This mesh of blood cells hardens as it dries, forming a clot, or "scab."

Clot retraction:

"tightening" of clot

contraction of platelets trapped within clot shrinks fibrin meshwork, pulling edges of damaged vessel closer together"

IOW blood shrinks when it dries.

Blood also hardens when it dries. These body products including tissue have remarkable glue properties. We all can experience this when cleaning up congealed blood or when pulling bandage off a wound. The white house staff saw this when trying to clean up the Limo.

So, the heavily blood soaked part of the shirt which includes the area of the shirt hole, holds its shape much more than the unbloodied areas.

This clotting, or thromboplastia, is very fast where exposed to air. Less than a minute and more like 40 seconds.

The shirt, where it has stuck to the back, is unlikely to be stretched away from there. Another reason to use the WC image.

Although it was long ago recognized that a correlation existed between the outline of the blood stains on the back of JFK as well as the corresponding stains on the shirt worn at the time of the assassination, neither then, nor now, do I/did I have the capability to do as you have done in this computer age.

Your work still represents "Original Research", which many would no doubt like to claim credit (or credits as in cash rewards) for.

So goes life as well as much of the JFK research.

Facts, truths, and personal integrity, are frequently (surely not) put aside in the name of the dollar bill.

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Ashton,the notion that I have stated I will produce an animation is yours entirely.

Well...now what am I going to do with all this popcorn?

The only thing of interest to me is to find out what the truth is, and if the truth is contrary to anything I believe, then I want to know so I can adjust my position.
I just knew we were fundamentally in agreement. I feel exactly the same way. Would you like some of my popcorn?
Personality and ego has no place in this process. On the contrary, it's a hindrance.

Uhhhhh, yeah. (Without stipulating to the existence of any No-See-Um called "ego," "id," "atavistic reptile brain," or any other psychobabble.)

It's nice to have people say nice things to me and it's not nice when they don't.
John, let me ask you a question for moment, and I'd appreciate it if you'd give this some long sober consideration before answering: Have you ever seen the slightest indication that I—*I*—have been vying for some kind of popularity? :rolleyes:

Sheeeeeeeeeesh...

Truth is not nice, nor is it nice, it just is.

I'll second that. Hell, I'll drink to that!

So let's stop the tango and get to the truth: on JFK's back, which is the bullet hole and which is the standard Government-Issue rabbit hole?

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
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Are you saying you knew----Apollo 13?

If one observes closely, a resemblance between the boat driver and the person posting may be found.

Just as the individual to the far right closely resembles Apollo XIII Commander James (Jim) Lovell.

Who knows? It may be fact and it may not be!

However, if one takes a look at the the upcoming March issue of VERITAS (Journal of Army Special Operations History) they just may see the same photo, as the JFK Center recently contacted me in regards to any/all photo-history I may have of the Special Forces Underwater Operations Course.

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