End-of-Course Exam/Questionaire

[Pat Speer]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

[Gary Murr]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of the tracing measuring 40 inches in width, 72 inches in length. It is made to a scale of 1 inch equals 10 feet. From the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared.

The area is bounded on the north by the Texas School Book Depository Building, and on further here by railroad property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the original size of the WC Survey Plat as well as the size of the "two" copies which I acquired directly from Mr. West and represent the WC Survey Plat.

What one will find when comparing the Time/Life original survey plat with the WC plat (other than the minor survey errors which are a direct result of the lack of accuracy on the part of C. H. Breneman) is that Time/Life clearly surveyed in and platted the impact position of the first shot which, when transferred (utilizing established survey Control points) to the WC Survey Plat, places the first shot impact point at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Whereas of course, the WC Survey Plat establishes no impact point for the first shot fired and of course claims that the first shot was not fired until some point past Z210.

Lastly, the US Secret Service and the FBI Plats indicate an impact point for the first shot at what would effectively be approximately Z208/Z210.

[Gary Murr]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of the tracing measuring 40 inches in width, 72 inches in length. It is made to a scale of 1 inch equals 10 feet. From the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared.

The area is bounded on the north by the Texas School Book Depository Building, and on further here by railroad property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the original size of the WC Survey Plat as well as the size of the "two" copies which I acquired directly from Mr. West and represent the WC Survey Plat.

What one will find when comparing the Time/Life original survey plat with the WC plat (other than the minor survey errors which are a direct result of the lack of accuracy on the part of C. H. Breneman) is that Time/Life clearly surveyed in and platted the impact position of the first shot which, when transferred (utilizing established survey Control points) to the WC Survey Plat, places the first shot impact point at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Whereas of course, the WC Survey Plat establishes no impact point for the first shot fired and of course claims that the first shot was not fired until some point past Z210.

Lastly, the US Secret Service and the FBI Plats indicate an impact point for the first shot at what would effectively be approximately Z208/Z210.

Tom:

Given my respect for your expertise in this area, and my admitted ignorance of most things relating to "surveying," could you enlighten me by answering, if possible, a few questions for me?[1] Do you know the precise date on which West/Brenneman conducted the survey which resulted in the TIME/LIFE plat? Is the date affixed in the "legend box" as with other West versions of Dealey Plaza plats?: [2] Can you confirm Breneman's participation in this same event, through documentation etc.? [3] Can you reproduce that portion of the TIME/LIFE plat that actually shows their positioning of the first shot "at approximately Z204 to Z206, and who told West/Breneman to place it where they apparently did? [names if possible]. I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Gary

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of the tracing measuring 40 inches in width, 72 inches in length. It is made to a scale of 1 inch equals 10 feet. From the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared.

The area is bounded on the north by the Texas School Book Depository Building, and on further here by railroad property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the original size of the WC Survey Plat as well as the size of the "two" copies which I acquired directly from Mr. West and represent the WC Survey Plat.

What one will find when comparing the Time/Life original survey plat with the WC plat (other than the minor survey errors which are a direct result of the lack of accuracy on the part of C. H. Breneman) is that Time/Life clearly surveyed in and platted the impact position of the first shot which, when transferred (utilizing established survey Control points) to the WC Survey Plat, places the first shot impact point at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Whereas of course, the WC Survey Plat establishes no impact point for the first shot fired and of course claims that the first shot was not fired until some point past Z210.

Lastly, the US Secret Service and the FBI Plats indicate an impact point for the first shot at what would effectively be approximately Z208/Z210.

Tom:

Given my respect for your expertise in this area, and my admitted ignorance of most things relating to "surveying," could you enlighten me by answering, if possible, a few questions for me?[1] Do you know the precise date on which West/Brenneman conducted the survey which resulted in the TIME/LIFE plat? Is the date affixed in the "legend box" as with other West versions of Dealey Plaza plats?: [2] Can you confirm Breneman's participation in this same event, through documentation etc.? [3] Can you reproduce that portion of the TIME/LIFE plat that actually shows their positioning of the first shot "at approximately Z204 to Z206, and who told West/Breneman to place it where they apparently did? [names if possible]. I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Gary

I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Persons who seek the facts through a thorough evaluation of the evidence are called "researchers", NOT "pest".

The Data Block for the Time Life Survey was previously posted, if you like, I will (just as proof) provide it again.

The date in the data block is 11/26/63.

However, somewhere, I have something which indicates that this is the date in which the plat was drawn by Paul D. Hardin and the actual Time/Life re-enactment occurred on 11/25/63.

Would have to check into that for final verification as all of these dates, etc; tend to run together in the slowly diminishing memories of the cerebral tissues.

C. H. Breneman was the instrument man for all of this work (which for the most part is about all that he worked on), and as previously indicated, he rounded distances to what was supposedly the nearest foot and frequently only shot angles to the nearest degrees.

Additionally, all angles were computed to impact points on Elm St., and the true nature of the grade of Elm St. was not taken into consideration, thus compounding the potential for errors.

I will have to dig out the info and repost it, and yes, on the actual survey plat, Hardin's name is listed as the person who drew the plat and Breneman's name is llsted as the "instrument man"

I also possess a limited amount of the survey notes from the Time/Life work, but they carry no affixed date.

And lastly, according to Mr. West, neither he nor any of his survey personnel actually ever looked at the Z-film and did the positioning.

They were merely directed to locations and directed thereafter to survey it in and designate it as told.

However, Mr. West did say that Breneman was responsible for most of the work for Time/Life, and this is of course why Mr. West had to completely re-do the work for the US Secret Service, as the Time/Life work is extremely lacking as well as being not too professional.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of the tracing measuring 40 inches in width, 72 inches in length. It is made to a scale of 1 inch equals 10 feet. From the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared.

The area is bounded on the north by the Texas School Book Depository Building, and on further here by railroad property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the original size of the WC Survey Plat as well as the size of the "two" copies which I acquired directly from Mr. West and represent the WC Survey Plat.

What one will find when comparing the Time/Life original survey plat with the WC plat (other than the minor survey errors which are a direct result of the lack of accuracy on the part of C. H. Breneman) is that Time/Life clearly surveyed in and platted the impact position of the first shot which, when transferred (utilizing established survey Control points) to the WC Survey Plat, places the first shot impact point at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Whereas of course, the WC Survey Plat establishes no impact point for the first shot fired and of course claims that the first shot was not fired until some point past Z210.

Lastly, the US Secret Service and the FBI Plats indicate an impact point for the first shot at what would effectively be approximately Z208/Z210.

Tom:

Given my respect for your expertise in this area, and my admitted ignorance of most things relating to "surveying," could you enlighten me by answering, if possible, a few questions for me?[1] Do you know the precise date on which West/Brenneman conducted the survey which resulted in the TIME/LIFE plat? Is the date affixed in the "legend box" as with other West versions of Dealey Plaza plats?: [2] Can you confirm Breneman's participation in this same event, through documentation etc.? [3] Can you reproduce that portion of the TIME/LIFE plat that actually shows their positioning of the first shot "at approximately Z204 to Z206, and who told West/Breneman to place it where they apparently did? [names if possible]. I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Gary

I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Persons who seek the facts through a thorough evaluation of the evidence are called "researchers", NOT "pest".

The Data Block for the Time Life Survey was previously posted, if you like, I will (just as proof) provide it again.

The date in the data block is 11/26/63.

However, somewhere, I have something which indicates that this is the date in which the plat was drawn by Paul D. Hardin and the actual Time/Life re-enactment occurred on 11/25/63.

Would have to check into that for final verification as all of these dates, etc; tend to run together in the slowly diminishing memories of the cerebral tissues.

C. H. Breneman was the instrument man for all of this work (which for the most part is about all that he worked on), and as previously indicated, he rounded distances to what was supposedly the nearest foot and frequently only shot angles to the nearest degrees.

Additionally, all angles were computed to impact points on Elm St., and the true nature of the grade of Elm St. was not taken into consideration, thus compounding the potential for errors.

I will have to dig out the info and repost it, and yes, on the actual survey plat, Hardin's name is listed as the person who drew the plat and Breneman's name is llsted as the "instrument man"

I also possess a limited amount of the survey notes from the Time/Life work, but they carry no affixed date.

And lastly, according to Mr. West, neither he nor any of his survey personnel actually ever looked at the Z-film and did the positioning.

They were merely directed to locations and directed thereafter to survey it in and designate it as told.

However, Mr. West did say that Breneman was responsible for most of the work for Time/Life, and this is of course why Mr. West had to completely re-do the work for the US Secret Service, as the Time/Life work is extremely lacking as well as being not too professional.

P.S.

Should have added:

Paul D. Hardin was apparantly permanent employed by Robert West Survey Company, whereas Breneman was merely an instrument man who was contacted for the Time/Life work as Mr. West had his other crews/etc. engaged elsewhere.

Hardin was also with Mr. West when on 3/16/64, (the date that the autopsy surgeons testified before the WC) when the request was received to go to Dealy Plaza and get the exact dimensions and locations of the road signs in Dealy Plaza.

So, it is unknown if Paul D. Hardin is or is not still living, but if so, he remains the single remaining witness who has direct knowledge of much of the Dealy Plaza survey work as well as the sign measurements just prior to their "relocation" for the completely staged and fraudulent WC re-enactment.

[Gary Murr]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of the tracing measuring 40 inches in width, 72 inches in length. It is made to a scale of 1 inch equals 10 feet. From the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared.

The area is bounded on the north by the Texas School Book Depository Building, and on further here by railroad property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the original size of the WC Survey Plat as well as the size of the "two" copies which I acquired directly from Mr. West and represent the WC Survey Plat.

What one will find when comparing the Time/Life original survey plat with the WC plat (other than the minor survey errors which are a direct result of the lack of accuracy on the part of C. H. Breneman) is that Time/Life clearly surveyed in and platted the impact position of the first shot which, when transferred (utilizing established survey Control points) to the WC Survey Plat, places the first shot impact point at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Whereas of course, the WC Survey Plat establishes no impact point for the first shot fired and of course claims that the first shot was not fired until some point past Z210.

Lastly, the US Secret Service and the FBI Plats indicate an impact point for the first shot at what would effectively be approximately Z208/Z210.

Tom:

Given my respect for your expertise in this area, and my admitted ignorance of most things relating to "surveying," could you enlighten me by answering, if possible, a few questions for me?[1] Do you know the precise date on which West/Brenneman conducted the survey which resulted in the TIME/LIFE plat? Is the date affixed in the "legend box" as with other West versions of Dealey Plaza plats?: [2] Can you confirm Breneman's participation in this same event, through documentation etc.? [3] Can you reproduce that portion of the TIME/LIFE plat that actually shows their positioning of the first shot "at approximately Z204 to Z206, and who told West/Breneman to place it where they apparently did? [names if possible]. I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Gary

I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Persons who seek the facts through a thorough evaluation of the evidence are called "researchers", NOT "pest".

The Data Block for the Time Life Survey was previously posted, if you like, I will (just as proof) provide it again.

The date in the data block is 11/26/63.

However, somewhere, I have something which indicates that this is the date in which the plat was drawn by Paul D. Hardin and the actual Time/Life re-enactment occurred on 11/25/63.

Would have to check into that for final verification as all of these dates, etc; tend to run together in the slowly diminishing memories of the cerebral tissues.

C. H. Breneman was the instrument man for all of this work (which for the most part is about all that he worked on), and as previously indicated, he rounded distances to what was supposedly the nearest foot and frequently only shot angles to the nearest degrees.

Additionally, all angles were computed to impact points on Elm St., and the true nature of the grade of Elm St. was not taken into consideration, thus compounding the potential for errors.

I will have to dig out the info and repost it, and yes, on the actual survey plat, Hardin's name is listed as the person who drew the plat and Breneman's name is llsted as the "instrument man"

I also possess a limited amount of the survey notes from the Time/Life work, but they carry no affixed date.

And lastly, according to Mr. West, neither he nor any of his survey personnel actually ever looked at the Z-film and did the positioning.

They were merely directed to locations and directed thereafter to survey it in and designate it as told.

However, Mr. West did say that Breneman was responsible for most of the work for Time/Life, and this is of course why Mr. West had to completely re-do the work for the US Secret Service, as the Time/Life work is extremely lacking as well as being not too professional.

P.S.

Should have added:

Paul D. Hardin was apparantly permanent employed by Robert West Survey Company, whereas Breneman was merely an instrument man who was contacted for the Time/Life work as Mr. West had his other crews/etc. engaged elsewhere.

Hardin was also with Mr. West when on 3/16/64, (the date that the autopsy surgeons testified before the WC) when the request was received to go to Dealy Plaza and get the exact dimensions and locations of the road signs in Dealy Plaza.

So, it is unknown if Paul D. Hardin is or is not still living, but if so, he remains the single remaining witness who has direct knowledge of much of the Dealy Plaza survey work as well as the sign measurements just prior to their "relocation" for the completely staged and fraudulent WC re-enactment.

Thanks Tom:

I appreciate your correspondence on this matter and look forward to the posting of the "legend" with Hardin's name on it. Most of the correspondence I have between the West office and TIME/LIFE is actually signed, and/or the exchanges actually involve, Paul Hardin and not Robert West directly. [Though the communication indicating the copying and transmittal of the May 31 1964 WC survey was filled out by West on his own stationery]. If you can find the time, send me a private e-mail; I have other things I would like to ask you.

Gary

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I was just going blind trying to read West's 12-5-63 survey in Weisberg's White Wash II, and I thought I'd look online to see if I could read your version. I assume it's one of the pages above. But there's no there there. Please re-post if possible.

Pat;

The SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 is 24" X 30" (same size as the Time/Life Plat, the FBI Plat of 2/7/64/ and the FBI "modified" plat of June 1964.

I have never bothered to reduce these plats down to the extent that a "full" view could be seen, and have posted here only areas of them which could be gotten up onto the scanner without tearing the plat completely apart.

In event you have a specific area in mind, then I will make an attempt to provide something.

Along that lines, all of the above mentioned plats are on a scale of 1-inch = 20 feet.

Whereas the WC Survey Plat is a much better tool to work with as it's scale is 1-inch = 10 feet.

However, it is also some 40" by 60" (I believe that's correct) in size.

Lastly;

I can not recall having seen the survey plat to which you refer in Weisberg's book (have not seen the book).

However, with the various portions of survey plats which I have allowed into the public domain, as well as the reduced copy of the WC Survey plat, I personally would take nothing for face value unless the provider can provide accurate information relative to the "provenance" of the documents.

Of course, anyone can send of to the National Archives and get a copy of the CE which shows either the reduced SS Survey plat, which was introduced into evidence during he questioning of Ronald Simmons, or of the actual WC Survey Plat as it was entered into evidence.

Just that one had best have a good microscope to review what they get.

Tom:

FWIW: The plat that Pat is referring to, reproduced in Weisberg's WWII, is a copy of the Secret Service plat dated December 5, 1963. Weisberg acquired a copy of this "plat" from its then [1966] resting place in the "old" original National Archives, SS File No. 87. You are correct, Tom, in stating that there were/are "larger" copies of certain "editions" of Robert West's survey plats. I have copies of correspondence between West and various individuals at TIME/LIFE indicating that West could supply them with a 3 X 6 foot copy of a "survey he made for the Warren Commission dated May 31, 1964." Do you know anything about this particular copy, Tom? West did eventually send them a copy of this "larger" plat, air expressing it, via American Airlines, Flight No. 98, that left Dallas in the early afternoon of November 3, 1966, arriving at JFK airport at 535 p.m. that same date. The map, and other material necessary to the LIFE "re-investigation" of the assassination, carried Waybill No. 89-59-52. And Pat, if you are interested, I have various copies of all of the West survey plats, and other "non-West" related plats, [utilized specifically the the FBI] - just send me a private e-mail.

Gary Murr

Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute.

Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of the tracing measuring 40 inches in width, 72 inches in length. It is made to a scale of 1 inch equals 10 feet. From the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared.

The area is bounded on the north by the Texas School Book Depository Building, and on further here by railroad property.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the original size of the WC Survey Plat as well as the size of the "two" copies which I acquired directly from Mr. West and represent the WC Survey Plat.

What one will find when comparing the Time/Life original survey plat with the WC plat (other than the minor survey errors which are a direct result of the lack of accuracy on the part of C. H. Breneman) is that Time/Life clearly surveyed in and platted the impact position of the first shot which, when transferred (utilizing established survey Control points) to the WC Survey Plat, places the first shot impact point at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Whereas of course, the WC Survey Plat establishes no impact point for the first shot fired and of course claims that the first shot was not fired until some point past Z210.

Lastly, the US Secret Service and the FBI Plats indicate an impact point for the first shot at what would effectively be approximately Z208/Z210.

Tom:

Given my respect for your expertise in this area, and my admitted ignorance of most things relating to "surveying," could you enlighten me by answering, if possible, a few questions for me?[1] Do you know the precise date on which West/Brenneman conducted the survey which resulted in the TIME/LIFE plat? Is the date affixed in the "legend box" as with other West versions of Dealey Plaza plats?: [2] Can you confirm Breneman's participation in this same event, through documentation etc.? [3] Can you reproduce that portion of the TIME/LIFE plat that actually shows their positioning of the first shot "at approximately Z204 to Z206, and who told West/Breneman to place it where they apparently did? [names if possible]. I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Gary

I apologize for being a pest, but I am a minutia junky when it comes to evidence and documentation!

Persons who seek the facts through a thorough evaluation of the evidence are called "researchers", NOT "pest".

The Data Block for the Time Life Survey was previously posted, if you like, I will (just as proof) provide it again.

The date in the data block is 11/26/63.

However, somewhere, I have something which indicates that this is the date in which the plat was drawn by Paul D. Hardin and the actual Time/Life re-enactment occurred on 11/25/63.

Would have to check into that for final verification as all of these dates, etc; tend to run together in the slowly diminishing memories of the cerebral tissues.

C. H. Breneman was the instrument man for all of this work (which for the most part is about all that he worked on), and as previously indicated, he rounded distances to what was supposedly the nearest foot and frequently only shot angles to the nearest degrees.

Additionally, all angles were computed to impact points on Elm St., and the true nature of the grade of Elm St. was not taken into consideration, thus compounding the potential for errors.

I will have to dig out the info and repost it, and yes, on the actual survey plat, Hardin's name is listed as the person who drew the plat and Breneman's name is llsted as the "instrument man"

I also possess a limited amount of the survey notes from the Time/Life work, but they carry no affixed date.

And lastly, according to Mr. West, neither he nor any of his survey personnel actually ever looked at the Z-film and did the positioning.

They were merely directed to locations and directed thereafter to survey it in and designate it as told.

However, Mr. West did say that Breneman was responsible for most of the work for Time/Life, and this is of course why Mr. West had to completely re-do the work for the US Secret Service, as the Time/Life work is extremely lacking as well as being not too professional.

P.S.

Should have added:

Paul D. Hardin was apparantly permanent employed by Robert West Survey Company, whereas Breneman was merely an instrument man who was contacted for the Time/Life work as Mr. West had his other crews/etc. engaged elsewhere.

Hardin was also with Mr. West when on 3/16/64, (the date that the autopsy surgeons testified before the WC) when the request was received to go to Dealy Plaza and get the exact dimensions and locations of the road signs in Dealy Plaza.

So, it is unknown if Paul D. Hardin is or is not still living, but if so, he remains the single remaining witness who has direct knowledge of much of the Dealy Plaza survey work as well as the sign measurements just prior to their "relocation" for the completely staged and fraudulent WC re-enactment.

Thanks Tom:

I appreciate your correspondence on this matter and look forward to the posting of the "legend" with Hardin's name on it. Most of the correspondence I have between the West office and TIME/LIFE is actually signed, and/or the exchanges actually involve, Paul Hardin and not Robert West directly. [Though the communication indicating the copying and transmittal of the May 31 1964 WC survey was filled out by West on his own stationery]. If you can find the time, send me a private e-mail; I have other things I would like to ask you.

Gary

Well!

Since you already had Hardin's name, perhaps that adds some validity???

In event that you definitively want to keep certain items close, then email me and I will attempt to answer.

For the most part I am normally entirely "open" in what I have to offer as it is about the only way that others can also have a change to "chunk darts & knives".

In that regards, there are a couple of those here who have taken information and carried it far beyond any capability which I am ever likely to have.

This is what will eventually place most of the facts into the proper perspective.

Knowing that there are many out there who are completely looking for the unprotected works of some here, and their full intent is based on nothing more than money, I understand and fully appreciate your request.

As one who has had his works utilized by others, (which I also knew would happen), I seldom shared more than a little informatin at at time.

Will find the Time/Life legend block & repost it.

Just keep getting sidetracked on other items.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Two copies of the Time/Life survey plat data block.

The bottom/smaller copy shows the last part of Hardin's name and the last part of Breneman's name which is written in just to the left of the data block.

This says:

Drawn Paul D. Hardin

Instr. C. H. Breneman

Somewhere, are copies which clearly demonstrate the names. The original Time/Life Survey Plat is now in a frame to attempt to prevent further damage and I do not particulary want to have to take it out again.

[Gary Murr]

Two copies of the Time/Life survey plat data block.

The bottom/smaller copy shows the last part of Hardin's name and the last part of Breneman's name which is written in just to the left of the data block.

This says:

Drawn Paul D. Hardin

Instr. C. H. Breneman

Somewhere, are copies which clearly demonstrate the names. The original Time/Life Survey Plat is now in a frame to attempt to prevent further damage and I do not particulary want to have to take it out again.

Hi Tom:

Many thanks, once again, for the re-posting; it helps to clarify confusion [in my mind]regarding an exchange between LIFE and Hardin/West that occurred in November of 1966. I appreciate this and can sympathize with your concerted effort to preserve your copy of this document.

Gary

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Two copies of the Time/Life survey plat data block.

The bottom/smaller copy shows the last part of Hardin's name and the last part of Breneman's name which is written in just to the left of the data block.

This says:

Drawn Paul D. Hardin

Instr. C. H. Breneman

Somewhere, are copies which clearly demonstrate the names. The original Time/Life Survey Plat is now in a frame to attempt to prevent further damage and I do not particulary want to have to take it out again.

Hi Tom:

Many thanks, once again, for the re-posting; it helps to clarify confusion [in my mind]regarding an exchange between LIFE and Hardin/West that occurred in November of 1966. I appreciate this and can sympathize with your concerted effort to preserve your copy of this document.

Gary

Gary;

Quite obviously, you have what would be considered "new information" as well.

And although I can certainly appreciate the work as well as the potential cost of developing additional information which may have relevance, I would also hope that it will be made publicly available in one form or another soon.

The answers to the JFK assassination are scattered throughout the manipulations of the evidence and witness's, and prior to my cease of oxygen consumption, I would like to see Specter & Company as well as all of those responsible for this sham exposed.

For years, I "guarded" my resevoir of heretofore unrevealed facts and information, as it was felt that "Stupid" people do not have the right to know.

However, old age ultilmately revealed that I had once fought for their rights to be as stupid and misguided as they want to be, as well.

If I can be of any assistance, let me know.

Tom

P.S. You can freely post absolutely factual information here with little difficulty, as there are only a few who may recognize it's worth and further it.

It's those who do not log on and are observed under the "anonymous" category who are looking for bread crumbs.

Personally, I waited until virtually all of them had totally committed themselves to the ignorance of "Multiple Assassins's" and "Body Snatchers".

Now, they would have to admit complete prior stupidity, were they to jump onto the factual bandwagon.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Two copies of the Time/Life survey plat data block.

The bottom/smaller copy shows the last part of Hardin's name and the last part of Breneman's name which is written in just to the left of the data block.

This says:

Drawn Paul D. Hardin

Instr. C. H. Breneman

Somewhere, are copies which clearly demonstrate the names. The original Time/Life Survey Plat is now in a frame to attempt to prevent further damage and I do not particulary want to have to take it out again.

Hi Tom:

Many thanks, once again, for the re-posting; it helps to clarify confusion [in my mind]regarding an exchange between LIFE and Hardin/West that occurred in November of 1966. I appreciate this and can sympathize with your concerted effort to preserve your copy of this document.

Gary

Gary;

Quite obviously, you have what would be considered "new information" as well.

And although I can certainly appreciate the work as well as the potential cost of developing additional information which may have relevance, I would also hope that it will be made publicly available in one form or another soon.

The answers to the JFK assassination are scattered throughout the manipulations of the evidence and witness's, and prior to my cease of oxygen consumption, I would like to see Specter & Company as well as all of those responsible for this sham exposed.

For years, I "guarded" my resevoir of heretofore unrevealed facts and information, as it was felt that "Stupid" people do not have the right to know.

However, old age ultilmately revealed that I had once fought for their rights to be as stupid and misguided as they want to be, as well.

If I can be of any assistance, let me know.

Tom

P.S. You can freely post absolutely factual information here with little difficulty, as there are only a few who may recognize it's worth and further it.

It's those who do not log on and are observed under the "anonymous" category who are looking for bread crumbs.

Personally, I waited until virtually all of them had totally committed themselves to the ignorance of "Multiple Assassins's" and "Body Snatchers".

Now, they would have to admit complete prior stupidity, were they to jump onto the factual bandwagon.

[Gary Murr]

Two copies of the Time/Life survey plat data block.

The bottom/smaller copy shows the last part of Hardin's name and the last part of Breneman's name which is written in just to the left of the data block.

This says:

Drawn Paul D. Hardin

Instr. C. H. Breneman

Somewhere, are copies which clearly demonstrate the names. The original Time/Life Survey Plat is now in a frame to attempt to prevent further damage and I do not particulary want to have to take it out again.

Hi Tom:

Many thanks, once again, for the re-posting; it helps to clarify confusion [in my mind]regarding an exchange between LIFE and Hardin/West that occurred in November of 1966. I appreciate this and can sympathize with your concerted effort to preserve your copy of this document.

Gary

Gary;

Quite obviously, you have what would be considered "new information" as well.

And although I can certainly appreciate the work as well as the potential cost of developing additional information which may have relevance, I would also hope that it will be made publicly available in one form or another soon.

The answers to the JFK assassination are scattered throughout the manipulations of the evidence and witness's, and prior to my cease of oxygen consumption, I would like to see Specter & Company as well as all of those responsible for this sham exposed.

For years, I "guarded" my resevoir of heretofore unrevealed facts and information, as it was felt that "Stupid" people do not have the right to know.

However, old age ultilmately revealed that I had once fought for their rights to be as stupid and misguided as they want to be, as well.

If I can be of any assistance, let me know.

Tom

P.S. You can freely post absolutely factual information here with little difficulty, as there are only a few who may recognize it's worth and further it.

It's those who do not log on and are observed under the "anonymous" category who are looking for bread crumbs.

Personally, I waited until virtually all of them had totally committed themselves to the ignorance of "Multiple Assassins's" and "Body Snatchers".

Now, they would have to admit complete prior stupidity, were they to jump onto the factual bandwagon.

Tom:

If things work out according to plan, [yikes!!!] I hope to be in a position to "reveal" material that I hope will be of interest very soon. And while some may not like the form that will eventually emerge, my hope is that it will both enlighten, entertain, and help further the search for the truth of November 22, 1963. I think you will enjoy my treatment of Specter et al, but only time will tell.

Regards in research,

Gary