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Behaviour of Members


John Simkin

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John and Andy are providing a forum here to share research, thoughts, and ideas. At their own expense; and John with a very ill wife. Robert Charles-Dunne made some excellent points a few posts back. I strongly urge all forum members to re- read this post and then follow it. Points CAN be made without insults; infact insults greatly detract from otherwise valid points.

Dawn

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I have, on several occasions, opined that the vitriol that seems to be the inevitable result of virtually every photographic thread (and many, many others) contributes to the inability to "solve" the case. I stand by these comments. When the majority of the threads on which I can provide meaningful participation inevitably end in a shouting match, it makes one less than eager to participate. It becomes tiresome sorting through the myriad of replies -- most of which could qualify as cut-and-paste from a dozen other threads -- attempting to find anything either germane or new. This has, on several occasions, caused me to ponder taking my leave from this forum. I can't help but wonder how many other people have quietly left (or never joined at all) for this reason alone.

And, while we are all speaking our minds, I find the anti-American sentiment that occasionally rears its head on this forum to be an unfair generalization. While it may be true that the majority of complaints on this forum are about American participants, it is a breach in logic to extrapolate this behavior to all (or even the majority of) Americans.

On the question of moderation and rules, I generally view this as the domain of those who operate the forum. I will support whatever rule set or guidelines they wish to implement.

On the question of moderation, this too is a good idea. I would recommend, however, the selection of several moderators perhaps spanning several time zones. Prerequisite to this selection, though, is a published set of rules and guidelines so that there are no questions as to the expected forum policy and moderator actions. I would also recommend mandating that images must be hosted off-site and linked. This may reduce some of the bandwidth that the forum uses (and the associated costs).

John -- I offer my best wishes to you and your wife.

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However, on forums, some Americans behave as if they are in the movies. Therefore, I assume there is something cultural in all this. That it is not a bad thing to be very aggressive. After all, in foreign affairs you seem to take a very similar approach.

I may have to review, but I don't believe that the British Empire became at one time the largest empire in the world by winning cricket matches and sipping pints in pubs.

Be that as it may, based on the attention now being given to the actual forum issues—regardless of race, creed, religion, color, or place of national origin—and the apparent improvement since, I've removed the recent examples of rampant ad hominem from my sig.

I will say from my observation that ad hominem attacks are the single most virulent source of distraction and forum disruption, and that ad hominem begets ad hominem, and so is infinitely self-perpetuating. Ad hominem also is always off-topic. A particularly vicious and covert method of ad hominem is constantly to accuse a member of holding a position or making a statement he or she never held or made, then endlessly to demand that he or she "defend" or "justify" the non-existent "position" or "statement." An instantly identifiable hallmark of such tactics is that the target of the attack is not quoted in such accusations. The accuser just claims it without any evidence whatsoever. Of course this is a form of straw man, but a particularly odious use of the straw man indeed.

Ashton

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John is on the right track in banning forum members who continually show abusive behavior.

Ashton Gray's arrival in the Watergate section, with his instanteous personal attacks on other members, had the effect of ending that particular forum as a source of new information and valuable research concerning this history-changing scandal.

If abusive behavior is the standard by which a member should be banned, Ashton Gray easy meets and exceeds this criterion.

This raises the problem that I face. Doug Caddy and Alfred Baldwin were both answering questions about the Watergate affair. Then Ashton Gray arrived and employed his sarcastic style of questioning people.

Any actual and honest address to the record will demonstrate conclusively that my initial questions to both Alfred Baldwin and Douglas Caddy were polite and not remotely sarcastic. Both uniformly evaded the questions and refused to answer them. In fact, Douglas Caddy started a campaign to get me banned from these forums before I had asked him any questions at all, so the statement above is false on its face, as is proven by the record if anybody wanted to deal with actual fact.

Then Caddy jumped in on the tag-team with Pat Speer to smear me personally—which you condoned.

At this very moment, over six months later, there are still 52 (that's fifty-two) polite, non-sarcastic questions sitting in the topic I started last year called Who was Douglas Caddy representing, and When? He won 't answer them.

The excuse given for not answering relevant, polite, and extremely important questions is "Ashton Gray is sarcastic."

This resulted in Doug and Alfred withdrawing from the debate we were having.
What a load of crap. They "withdrew from the debate" because they encountered somebody who wouldn't accept their evasions and regurgitations of "The Official Story" as "answers," because they weren't answers, and so kept asking the questions.
Ashton...also spends a lot of time sending me emails complaining about members who retaliate

That's a damned lie. I sent you two (or three, maybe, in an exchange with you) PMs/emails in July of last year when Speer and Caddy were doing their tag-team smear job on me to help Caddy evade the questions I had asked him. Then several days ago, I sent six standard reports from one thread about the egregious personal attacks that were going on, and announced it in that same thread.

If this post of yours with the false and unupported parroting of the Caddy's smear job is the holier-than-though British concept of "justice," ban me the instant you read this. It won't be a punishment;. it will be a supreme honor.

Then you can curry favor again with the CIA puppets who helped pull off the biggest, most heinous CIA hoax in history.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray
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Duane, for what it's worth, I think oftentimes the people who are shining a light where the fascists would rather it remain dark are the very people who are harassed, in the apparent hopes of intimidating and wearing them down. For example, it's precisely because Jack has furthered JFK research that he's targeted by some. They pile on when they sense a threat to the party line.

While Jack is being mentioned, may I highlight the fact that I do NOT mention Jack's worth as a JFK researcher; I do not have the background to assess his work in that area and thus I confine myself to his 'Apollo Hoax' claims (with the odd foray into the 9/11 world). That is where I am knowledgeable, and that is where I restrict my debate with him to.

Understood. I was just using Jack as a general example.

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Perhaps the forum could adopt a stock insult, a particular statement that anyone can make about a fellow member, as long as the person utilizing the insult immediately returns to civility. This would be the only insult allowed on the forum, as long as the insult is used infrequently and with discretion, reserved only for someone who absolutely deserves to be insulted.

Here are two insults, personal favorites of mine, either one of which I think would be a good stock insult for the forum:

"He/she has all the attributes of a dog except loyalty."

"If he/she was any dumber he/she would have to be watered twice a week."

Other forum members may have personal favorites to suggest. Just remember, though, that there is a psychological phenomenon known as spontaneous trait transference. The traits you describe in other people will be applied to you as well, however unconsciously, by the person(s) you're describing them to. You become associated with the characteristics you describe. So beware of this boomerang effect in insulting other people.

That's the best idea I've every heard Ron!

Here's my entry:

"Is that your nose or are you eating a banana?"

Hang on a minute, girly man.

I believe I already made that suggestion way back in post #2. (I like your entry, though)

It's on the record. Read it and weep.

Ron is already showered with adulation. (I think he's a serial glory hogger)

Mark,

This is exactly the kind of behavious and use of juvenile language that this whole thread is referring to. I should think that if the forum is to gain more respectability you should refrain from using this attack method and conduct yourself in a more civil manner. If not for the good of the forum, but out of respect for John Simkin, who invests money so that we can enjoy the privilege of membership.

Respectfully,

John Geraghty

John, I'm hoping you're just joining the the fun and kidding along with us in this sub-thread, which is intentionally silly and frisky. If not, please take the time to read back over the sub-thread I think you'd see that a few members are sharing a laugh.

The respect you show for the forum in your comments is laudable. Now if you could couple that with a sense of humor and awareness of context, we'd make even more progress on improving communication in the forum.

Respectfully,

Myra

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I have had a lot of complaints recently about the insulting comments of some members of this forum. In virtually every case, the culprits are Americans. I suppose this abusive behaviour must be part of their culture, however, people from outside the United States find it very offensive.

John:

Do you really believe that abusive behaviour is part of American culture?

Steve

As you might infer, I found this opinion troubling.

It is indeed true that a large percentage of members of this forum are Americans.

It is also true that the United Staes of America is a large country, with internet available to nearly everyone, and that Americans may have a disproportionate interest in an assassination which occurred in this country.

It is also true that the majority behave in an exemplary way. However, it is true that virtually every complaint I receive is about the behaviour of an American member.

But, as you note, a large percentage of members of this forum are Americans.

I do think it is partly cultural.

This, I don't understand. You believe it is a part of American culture to be aggressive?

For example, the films that you make often include people being very aggressive to each other.

The films that "we" make? Again, we make MANY of the films seen here and around the world. Do other nations make less aggressive films? I am troubled by this projection of what filmmakers do to American culture in general.

In fact, it seems as the aggression is part of some sort of formula that the American public like.

Americans, of course, are not the only consumers of American films. As I flip through the movie listings in my local paper, I see only a small proportion that seem to have an aggressive theme. In any case, there is a universal theme to creative works involving the antagonist and the protagonist, and it's not excusively American.

Of course the “baddies” are portrayed in this way, but so are the “goodies”. Take the example of the crime movie. The detectives attempting to solve the case are invariable unpleasant to each other for most of the time. However, by the end of the film, they are the best of friends, and in many cases, lovers. American movies are not only aggressive and violent, they are also extremely sentimental.

I'm not sure this represents the majority of American films, but I'm also not sure how this applies to out culture.

I have visited the United States many times and have not found the American people to be particularly aggressive or violent. They are just as polite and courteous as members of any country I have visited. In fact, on average, I would say they are better behaved that the British.

Indeed, one could look at different cultures and cherry-pick certain traits. Such as a culture where sarcasm is frequently used.

However, on forums, some Americans behave as if they are in the movies.

I do agree that there are some over-aggressive Americans on forums.

Therefore, I assume there is something cultural in all this.

I think that's a wrong assumption on your part. From an American perspective, it certainly is.

That it is not a bad thing to be very aggressive. After all, in foreign affairs you seem to take a very similar approach.

Is this what's at the root of it? From an American perspective: There was a power-vacuum after World War II, and the the US, the UK, the USSR and other rushed to fill it, for better or worse. The US has made mistakes in foreign policy, but the American people always seem to find a way to curtail it, as we did in Southeast Asia, and as we are now trying to do in the Middle East. Some of our leaders are cowboys, but some are peacemakers.

I think the good often gets lost in the torrent of criticism. Come to America again some time. I'll show you an America you may not know.

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When I first joined this forum I was hoping for meaningful and intelligent discussions about my favorite subject , the Apollo moon hoax ... I mainly joined this forum to be supportive of my mentor Jack White .... I have admired Jack's works for a long time now and was hoping to help defend one of his causes here , exposing the Apollo photography as being faked .

At first I tried to be a peacemaker with those who had been constantly attacking and insulting Jack on the Political Conspiracies forum .... but soon it became very evident to me that no matter how much I asked certain members to be civil towards him , the personal insults still continued ... Then , because of my defense of Jack and also because of my opinions about Apollo , I also became the target of their ad homs .

Since you currently are the most abusive member of this forum your complaints ring very hollow.

-I’ve only seen one post on this forum that was edited by a moderator for being too offensive and it was one of yours

- Twice you have accused me of trolling after I asked you politely to back your claims.

- Recently you called a fellow member dog $#!& after he politely pointed out errors in one of your posts.

- You regularly hurl invectives like Nazi and sociopath at your critics and accuse them of lying or acting “stupidly”

Len ... I already apologized for my unkind behavior and insulting comments to some of the members who have insulted me ever since I joined this forum .... Too bad you are not big enough of a man to do the same thing ... Your treatment of Jack White and now me is completely out of line .... And I stand behind what I posted yesterday on the political Conspircies forum .... If anyone should be banned for insulting conduct it should be you and Lamson ... Not only for your constant insults to Jack and me but now for your outright lies .. No one ever "politely" rebutted my Apollo evidence posted here ... but if you consider being called a crackpot , ignoramous, delusional , stupid , etc ., mostly by Craig Lamson as being "polite" , then you really do need a reality check ....

None of you will let up .... Your posts to me today on the Political Conspiracies prove that ... But I will not be dragged into another brawl by you , Lamson , or anyone else on this forum who defend Apollo with the most dispicable of tactics .

I didn't realize that you and Lamson and Ulman and Burton had come here from the Bad Astronomy forum until I read Jack's post here last night .... Now it all makes perfect sense why you are all so rude and insulting .... everyone on that pathetic forum acts the same way the four of you do when it comes to trying to debunk the hoax evidence ....

Sorry to dissapoint you but I will no longer play your game by answering your dishonest comments or your personal attacks .

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Perhaps the forum could adopt a stock insult, a particular statement that anyone can make about a fellow member, as long as the person utilizing the insult immediately returns to civility. This would be the only insult allowed on the forum, as long as the insult is used infrequently and with discretion, reserved only for someone who absolutely deserves to be insulted.

Here are two insults, personal favorites of mine, either one of which I think would be a good stock insult for the forum:

"He/she has all the attributes of a dog except loyalty."

"If he/she was any dumber he/she would have to be watered twice a week."

Other forum members may have personal favorites to suggest. Just remember, though, that there is a psychological phenomenon known as spontaneous trait transference. The traits you describe in other people will be applied to you as well, however unconsciously, by the person(s) you're describing them to. You become associated with the characteristics you describe. So beware of this boomerang effect in insulting other people.

That's the best idea I've every heard Ron!

Here's my entry:

"Is that your nose or are you eating a banana?"

Hang on a minute, girly man.

I believe I already made that suggestion way back in post #2. (I like your entry, though)

It's on the record. Read it and weep.

Ron is already showered with adulation. (I think he's a serial glory hogger)

Mark,

This is exactly the kind of behavious and use of juvenile language that this whole thread is referring to. I should think that if the forum is to gain more respectability you should refrain from using this attack method and conduct yourself in a more civil manner. If not for the good of the forum, but out of respect for John Simkin, who invests money so that we can enjoy the privilege of membership.

Respectfully,

John Geraghty

John, I'm hoping you're just joining the the fun and kidding along with us in this sub-thread, which is intentionally silly and frisky. If not, please take the time to read back over the sub-thread I think you'd see that a few members are sharing a laugh.

The respect you show for the forum in your comments is laudable. Now if you could couple that with a sense of humor and awareness of context, we'd make even more progress on improving communication in the forum.

Respectfully,

Myra

John,

I have to agree with Myra here.

My comments to Myra and about Ron were firmly tongue in cheek (and you'll notice Myra promptly returned serve). Ron is one of my favorite posters on the Forum.

I'm joking around. Get a sense of humor--that's what the Irish are famous for aren't they?

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Take the example of the crime movie. The detectives attempting to solve the case are invariable unpleasant to each other for most of the time. However, by the end of the film, they are the best of friends, and in many cases, lovers.

This is simply a formula used in movies for conflict and resolution. Every movie has to have conflict (in the sense of tension, not necessarily violence), preferrably some conflict in every scene, to hold interest. No one wants to hear one detective tell another throughout the movie "You're doing a heck of a job, Brownie." For a good movie, you've got to have the detectives or the main characters arguing, disagreeing, or fighting about something all the time as they are trying to reach whatever their goal is in the story. So I think this has less to do with culture than with good movie-making.

Some of the best British films I've ever seen are full of conflict, whether serious or hilarious, e.g., "This Sporting Life," "The Wrong Box," "Lawrence of Arabia." Conflict is what movies are about.

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I have had a lot of complaints recently about the insulting comments of some members of this forum. The names of certain people are constantly being mentioned. They are nearly always about posts on threads about the photographic evidence concerning the JFK assassination, 9/11 conspiracies and moon landings. In virtually every case, the culprits are Americans. I suppose this abusive behaviour must be part of their culture, however, people from outside the United States find it very offensive.

I spend a considerable amount of money on this forum. We recently upgraded to a much more expensive package. I also spend a great deal of time on this forum. This is in itself an expensive business as I am self-employed. I do not have the time to monitor these people. Especially as they tend to post on threads that I have little interest in.

Warnings do not seem to work. Therefore, I am considering banning the worst offenders from the forum. Do you agree? I await your advice on how to proceed.

Whatever helps the forum is what is important.

I support any action you feel is necessary. Including my own banishment if you feel that is the best course of action.

If you are looking into insults......I personally like..... "[add the name], why dont you take the day off. You dont have to be an asshole every day! thanks-smitty

Smitty...I was admonished for using the word ASSHOLE, which is the perfect description for some

here. So I have substituted SPHINCTER, which apparently is not as repulsive to some. Maybe

they don't recognize the word. I made up the phrase YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR SPHINCTER FROM

A GEOLOGICAL EXCAVATION. Unfortunately, they apparently don't know what I mean when I

say that. Oh, well.

Jack

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I have had a lot of complaints recently about the insulting comments of some members of this forum. The names of certain people are constantly being mentioned. They are nearly always about posts on threads about the photographic evidence concerning the JFK assassination, 9/11 conspiracies and moon landings. In virtually every case, the culprits are Americans. I suppose this abusive behaviour must be part of their culture, however, people from outside the United States find it very offensive.

I spend a considerable amount of money on this forum. We recently upgraded to a much more expensive package. I also spend a great deal of time on this forum. This is in itself an expensive business as I am self-employed. I do not have the time to monitor these people. Especially as they tend to post on threads that I have little interest in.

Warnings do not seem to work. Therefore, I am considering banning the worst offenders from the forum. Do you agree? I await your advice on how to proceed.

Whatever helps the forum is what is important.

I support any action you feel is necessary. Including my own banishment if you feel that is the best course of action.

If you are looking into insults......I personally like..... "[add the name], why dont you take the day off. You dont have to be an asshole every day! thanks-smitty

Smitty...I was admonished for using the word ASSHOLE, which is the perfect description for some

here. So I have substituted SPHINCTER, which apparently is not as repulsive to some. Maybe

they don't recognize the word. I made up the phrase YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR SPHINCTER FROM

A GEOLOGICAL EXCAVATION. Unfortunately, they apparently don't know what I mean when I

say that. Oh, well.

Jack

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The more I read these ANTI-American slurs by John and Andy in reference to American agressiveness, I feel it very necessary to say that they and many others around the world, more than once gave thanks to their God for this agressiveness, and no doubt prayed that it not be stopped.

Perhaps I was born in the wrong century, seriously lack culture, am immature and probably thought to be quite ignorant by you.....however in "my" neolithic culture, it has never been seen as an unmanly or inhuman trait for a man to be agressive.

Frankly, I have personally thanked God that I was given the agressiveness that perhaps kept myself and others alive.

It is nothing that I would care to sell at any price, and I feel that there are others who are glad that I wouldn't.

Do what ever you wish with your "good manners".

I am very grateful to have the attributes that I feel that I was Blessed with !

Frankly, I feel that the worst slurs that I have suffered on this forum are those inferences of John and Andy. In reality, they are very damned nasty and were meant to be quite degrading !

But I am certain that you two self proclaimed gentlemanly intellects, who are already legends in your own minds, are quite aware of this.

How could you not be ?

Please remember that the agressive mistakes that my country has made during the past six years was certainly in concert with those of YOUR government.

Are you REALLY IMPLYING that the Brits have been less agressive than Americans ?

Charlie Black

Edited by Charles Black
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As an American who has traveled a bit, and lives in an international city, Los Angeles, with as large a percentage of immigrants as any city in the world, I feel I can comment on Andy's statements. He's right. Americans are extremely aggressive, among the most aggressive people in the world. Part of this is our "Ugly American" attitude. If you take a day trip to Mexico you'll find Americans lined up at Papa's 'N' Beer, paying Mexican waiters to toss Tequila poppers down their throat and hold a towel over their mouths so they don't throw it back up. Part of it is purely conditioning. People in Los Angeles learn to drive fast, otherwise they won't get anywhere on time. The MTA adds extra minutes onto the route of any bus going through Chinatown, because Asian immigrants are known to drive much slower than those born here.

Now, if you get outside the large urban centers, you might witness a more laid back, passive existence. (Not completely true--small town folks in the Western states drive 90 mph on the highways and Americans, everywhere, like to drink and fight over football.) When my mom moved out to the desert, she was shocked. There, most everyone is on what some call "Indian Time". If the repairman says he'll be there at two, he'll call you at 4 and say he's running late and can he come back tomorrow. Perhaps some of my more defensive countrymen come from such areas.

Some have concluded this American aggressiveness is connected to our Puritan and Democratic heritage. We have no royalty. While people from other cultures are taught their lot in life from an early age, Americans are taught that they can become anything they want, and that they have to EARN their way into heaven. This combination spurs inventions, factories, music and murder. Americans are taught the world is theirs to mold. I suspect people from other countries have a different attitude.

Edited by Pat Speer
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However, on forums, some Americans behave as if they are in the movies. Therefore, I assume there is something cultural in all this. That it is not a bad thing to be very aggressive. After all, in foreign affairs you seem to take a very similar approach.

I may have to review, but I don't believe that the British Empire became at one time the largest empire in the world by winning cricket matches and sipping pints in pubs.

I agree entirely. See my comments on the Empire of Disorder thread. I am no defender of the British Empire.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7751

I am sure that individual Britons were also extremely aggressive when they thought they ruled the world but I was not around then. The current problem concerns the American Empire. As a country the United States thinks it can use its power and technology to bully the rest of the world to do what it wants. It should have discovered from its experiences in Vietnam that this was not the case. Unfortunately, your political leaders (and a large percentage of the electorate) were unable to grasp the truth that the US had been defeated in Vietnam and are therefore having to learn the same lesson all over again in Iraq.

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