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Remember, Zapruder and Sitzman are off the pedestal.

If you want to double check, be my guest.

Look at #2 and what's he wearing atop his head.

I count 3 people.

The old switcharoo was in motion.

cheers

Chris Davidson

They used a combination of these people in the other photos.

Look at the eyes on the hat man #2, they match the Betzner eyes in the photo from Life magazine.

Her dress is black, she has white sleeves, which matches the Bronson I posted.

Don't know who #1 is.

Their in the same spot where ducking man appears in Nix.

Here it is again with some distortion enhancement.

chris

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Remember, Zapruder and Sitzman are off the pedestal.

If you want to double check, be my guest.

Look at #2 and what's he wearing atop his head.

I count 3 people.

The old switcharoo was in motion.

cheers

Chris Davidson

Chris, I have two questions that would pertain to this nonsense that you consistently post ...

1) What film or photo source did you use and how long after the assassination was it time stamped in your best guess?

2) What other films or photos have you cross checked it against to see if what you are talking about is even valid?

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Chris,

It`s at this time that I wouldn`t mind talking to you on the phone(remember when I asked you about how many hats you see ?)

"Look at #2 and what's he wearing atop his head."

I`ve seen at least 10 of these (probably more)

Michael,

you can reach me at

chris@3125.us

Then I'll pass on my phone # to you.

Bill,

I'm giving you the story.

The frame is from Groden's version of the Bell movie.

Sitzman and Zapruder appear about 10 frames later walking away from the wall.

They had doubles/standins of them.

Please go back and look at the Betzner from Life magazine that I posted.

The hat and eyes match the hat and eyes of #2 in Bell.

The lady in Bronson who I said is filming with white sleeves and a dark dress is #3 in Bell.

The guy labeled #1 has a vest on.

I believe he is the white shirted guy in Wiegman.

Take a look at that photo, fill in the rest of his shirt area and you could have the vest. Least sure about this guy.

There's never a clear picture of Sitzman/Zapruder on the pedestal, this is why.

It's no coincidence,

It's what was done.

chris

P.S.

There is no exact time sequence for photos/movies after the shooting.

Remember, Bell's film was cut.

But not in this sequence. Z/Sitz are off the wall about 10 frames after the frame I have supplied.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Chris...the amazing thing about your find is that it appears that the same

woman with white sleeves on the pedestal in Bronson appears in a different

place in the frame you show. This woman cannot be in both places.

Great work!

Jack

Thanks Jack,

There were people on the pedestal, just wasn't Z/Sitz.

Just to difficult to tell the difference with the photos we had to work with.

chris

P.S.

Included is the original from the Bell movie.

I'm sorry I didn't post that first with the other.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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Chris...the amazing thing about your find is that it appears that the same

woman with white sleeves on the pedestal in Bronson appears in a different

place in the frame you show. This woman cannot be in both places.

Great work!

Jack

Thanks Jack,

There were people on the pedestal, just wasn't Z/Sitz.

Just to difficult to tell the difference with the photos we had to work with.

chris

P.S.

Included is the original from the Bell movie.

I'm sorry I didn't post that first with the other.

Chris, you are getting poor Jack's hopes up over something that doesn't exist. While I can appreciate your at least recognizing sunspots on a wall as Zapruder and Sitzman are walking away from the pedestal ... I must point out that Bell filmed those same sunspots for quite some time after the assassination even after the crowds had made their way up the walkway. Even the motorcade has long since left the plaza and the regular street traffic is moving down Elm Street.

Many of them later passes Bell made of that same spot are clearer than the image you chose to use so to imply that a woman was standing on the wall. If you guys do not wish to have this forum viewed as one consisting of a bunch of nuts, then try and check your observations out thoroughly by thinking them through before posting them to the forum as factual.

Bill

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Chris...the amazing thing about your find is that it appears that the same

woman with white sleeves on the pedestal in Bronson appears in a different

place in the frame you show. This woman cannot be in both places.

Great work!

Jack

Thanks Jack,

There were people on the pedestal, just wasn't Z/Sitz.

Just to difficult to tell the difference with the photos we had to work with.

chris

P.S.

Included is the original from the Bell movie.

I'm sorry I didn't post that first with the other.

Chris, you are getting poor Jack's hopes up over something that doesn't exist. While I can appreciate your at least recognizing sunspots on a wall as Zapruder and Sitzman are walking away from the pedestal ... I must point out that Bell filmed those same sunspots for quite some time after the assassination even after the crowds had made their way up the walkway. Even the motorcade has long since left the plaza and the regular street traffic is moving down Elm Street.

Many of them later passes Bell made of that same spot are clearer than the image you chose to use so to imply that a woman was standing on the wall. If you guys do not wish to have this forum viewed as one consisting of a bunch of nuts, then try and check your observations out thoroughly by thinking them through before posting them to the forum as factual.

Bill

Bill,

I'm sorry that all you'll ever see is sunspots.

Next you'll tell me that it's not a hat/face in Betzner that I pointed out. Which by the way shows 3 people on the wall. Another coincidence.

It's too bad you have some preconceived notion about what is and isn't the truth.

It's called following the masses.

People can judge for themselves.

Later this afternoon, I'll put together a little collage of my sunspots and the matching photos that go with them.

chris

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Bill,

I'm sorry that all you'll ever see is sunspots.

Next you'll tell me that it's not a hat/face in Betzner that I pointed out. Which by the way shows 3 people on the wall. Another coincidence.

It's too bad you have some preconceived notion about what is and isn't the truth.

It's called following the masses.

People can judge for themselves.

Later this afternoon, I'll put together a little collage of my sunspots and the matching photos that go with them.

chris

Chris, are you not going to explain why it is that what ever you think you see is still present at the same location long after the motorcade has left the area and still in the same posture? I would think that any rational person would want to look at this and address it. I would also think that any rational person would also want to explain why the thing they believe they see in a blurry image isn't present in an image that was validated not 30 minutes following the assassination and while Mary Moorman still had her photograph in her possession. Look at the same area in Moorman's photo and tell me where your alleged person is on the wall? (see below) I ask that you be precise and to the point for if you are not, then I feel that you are merely trying to make CT's look foolish through your postings.

Bill

post-1084-1170336946_thumb.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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Chris's topic has strayed off-topic. He has showed an image in Bell

VERY SIMILAR TO THE IMAGE IN WIEGMAN. The Wiegman image

clearly IS NOT SUNSPOTS ON THE WALL. What should be addressed

are the images in each film. After all, BOTH FILMS MAY BE TAMPERED

WITH and we must understand what anomalies may have been

introduced by the retouchers, whether they be sunspots or men

in white shirts. If it looks like a duck....is it?

Jack

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Chris's topic has strayed off-topic. He has showed an image in Bell

VERY SIMILAR TO THE IMAGE IN WIEGMAN. The Wiegman image

clearly IS NOT SUNSPOTS ON THE WALL. What should be addressed

are the images in each film. After all, BOTH FILMS MAY BE TAMPERED

WITH and we must understand what anomalies may have been

introduced by the retouchers, whether they be sunspots or men

in white shirts. If it looks like a duck....is it?

Jack

Jack, this response is not to you, Chris, or anyone else who cannot use sensible reasoning when looking at these images and how to cross reference them. This response is for those who do have the ability to follow reasoning. Some guys have been claiming (only recently I might add) that a figure is seen dancing on the pedestal or concrete wall. I say the pedestal because they have misread the images so badly that one moment they will claim the alleged figure is behind Sitzman with his arm on her because of the angle at which Betzner or Wiegman viewed the knoll, only to then say the figure is on the concrete wall when viewed from a different angle that someone like Bell had to the knoll. This alleged figure's location changes only because of the angle over the pedestal or wall that it is being viewed from in each film source. If it was a real figure and not the background - it would remain at the same location no matter which angle it was viewed from. An example of this is Zapruder and Sitzman ... they are seen on the pedestal from each filming location in the Betzner, Willis, Moorman, Nix, Bronson film, and Wiegman film when looking at a good Wiegman print. So if shifting of this alleged figure from one location to another takes place between filming locations, then what is being seen in the background being confused as a figure of someone. The Bronson slide and Moorman photograph should have put that matter to rest and probably has to those who can understand perspective and the need to use the best images over the poorer degraded ones.

Now what reliable photographic film source do we have again? Mary Moorman's photo was an instant picture that she had taken at the time of the assassination and had kept in her possession right up until the time that it was filmed for TV not 35 minutes following the shooting of President Kennedy. Mary's photo shows that clearly no one but Zapruder and Sitzman were on the pedestal and absolutely no one is seen standing on the concrete wall. The same goes for the Bronson slide and the Willis color photo. The same will also apply to the Betzner photograph if one does not degrade it to the point that they can imagine figures seen in amongst the grains and pixels.

There is a general consistency in the light patterns seen on the shelter wall. Those patterns, depending on from where they are seen - the steadiness of the camera - and the amount of light the camera captured the walkway in, will look differently to a certain extent, but their general shape is noticeable if looked at closely. What I find totally amazing is that the validity of this alleged figure fails on several levels, but even at that ... I would not expect these select few to not get the point on each and every one. I can only suggest that those people who really think that they have found some ground breaking observation - then treat it as if it is important enough to go into the 6th Floor Museum and ask that they be shown a good film copy so to confirm or deny the validity of their observation. If the latter is too much trouble, then the person making the claim doesn't feel that their observation is that reliable in the first place.

Bill Miller

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