What Helen Markum didn't see

[Charles Black]

Hello Ed

Even tho you are speculating, I feel that a lot of your speculation "could be correct". I have always felt that as a result of some of J.D.'s off the job activities, that his killing "may not" have been associated with JFK. I have been asked in this case by both the WC & HSCA, to believe a lot of less believable coincidences.

Perhaps I have allowed my personal "speculations" too much weight in this aspect of the case. The reason that I made an issue of the time frame which was supplied by the witnesses is that even tho, you agreed that watches wouldn't necessarily have to match......not many people are as aware of time as you seem to be . You "know" that certain of your time pieces are set a certain way, and you are therefore aware of "correct time". My wife and my two sons go by "approximate time". If they see that their watches are within a few minutes of what they feel that the time is....they feel that exact minutes is splitting hairs. They refer to my specific time keeping as being "ANAL".

But in my thinking, since I have never been convinced that Oz pulled the trigger on Tippitt, the time frame is not as important to me. I will also stick by my statement that had their been a trial, that the recorded police radio "log in" would have been the time most accepted in court.

Certainly it would have weighed much more heavily than the other two time references for the reasons previously stated.

But in my opinion, the discrepancies in the eyewitnesses description of the shooter, along with Markham's problem identifying the shooter and the manner in which the "lineups" were conducted, I really feel that the time would not be the major factor. It becomes "THE MAJOR FACTOR" only if Oz is the "only" possible shooter, which of course could never have been proven. It cannot be proven even after the passage of 43 years. I downplay the time because since I feel that the shooter "was not" Oz,

the time that it "would have taken" for the walk is moot. Oz may have given an accounting of his time in his unrecorded interrogations, that was not known to the public. Hoover said within hours that "they had their man".

This thread is no doubt maddening to those who tend "not" to speculate. However, we are speculating because we have so few absolutes.

My bottom line is that I not only do not know the time of the shooting, but the identity of the shooter was never clear. This is another discussion, tho interesting, could be carried forward endlessly and still yield no factual results.

Charlie Black

Edited February 15, 2007 by Charles Black

[Duke Lane]

Please allow me to be so brash as to respond to a number of points in this single post.

There is no reason to believe that her testimony regarding the time was any more credible than anything else that she said. NO ONE can verify what exact time this occurred.

It might be closer to the truth to say that ANYONE "can verify what exact time this occurred." The record clearly shows that TF Bowley verified Markham's time. Thus we have two percipient witnesses who INDEPENDENTLY verify that the murder HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED BEFORE 1.10. That is the defense case which, as the whole world knows, was never presented to the Warren Commission.

[That] is why we are still discussing it.

It seems to me that there is nothing left to discuss about the TIME of the murder, unless you can now produce some EVIDENCE that Markham and Bowley were BOTH WRONG ABOUT THE TIME. ... If you know of evidence which actually contradicts the time given by Bowley and Markham, I'm sure members would appreciate your posting it.

A lack of contradictory evidence proves nothing and needs not to, as their is no certifiable evidence that the shooting occuured at 1:08 or 1:13. If there was, we would still not be discussing this. Whether or not there was a trial may have been of no consequence. Were their a trial, I don't doubt that the police record would have been weighted heavier than the personal timepieces of the two civilians.

At the risk of stating the obvious, if Bowley and Markham are the sole source of evidence as to the time of the murder, and if rational people are to be guided by evidence and not some preconceived belief, then it is impossible that Lee Oswald murdered JD Tippit, because he had a pretty airtight alibi for the time in question (unless he owned a helicopter).

but the evidence which I am referring to and that I feel would have been accepted would have been the record of the "call in" that an officer was down.

No question that the "call in" is evidence, but it does not contradict the testimony of Bowley and Markham, which remains unchallenged as far as I can determine. I think it was Bowley himself who finally figured out how to work the police radio and made the call-in, so his own sworn affidavit, combined with the record of the call-in, means that the call-in came about six minutes after Bowley drove up, and about eight minutes after the murder.

As far as Markham and Bowley are concerned, we know a couple of things:

1. Helen Markham saw the shooting; Tom Bowley did not.
   
2. Markham was heading to Jefferson Blvd to catch a bus to work; Bowley was late to picking his wife up from work at the phone company a few blocks away.
   
3. Mr & Mrs Frank Wright lived a block from the shooting, heard the shots, and immediately called the operator to report it.
   

No matter how "flaky" Mrs Markham was regarding the events that happened at 10th & Patton, it was her regular routine to catch a bus to take her to work every day on time. She knew when she had to leave the house, what time the bus would pick her up, what time it would drop her off, and what time she'd walk into work at the downtown diner where she'd worked. She was a short block from where the bus was to have picked her up at the time of the shooting.

The WC looked into the bus schedule for Markham's route, and published it as a Commission Document, meaning it wasn't generally available to the public for several years after the Report and Hearings were published. It showed that her bus arrived at Patton & Jefferson Blvd at 1:08 or perhaps as late as 1:10 p.m., if memory serves. It was that bus that would have deposited Markham downtown in time for her to get to work on time.

Since Markham was going to meet a 1:10 bus (using the later figure) and she still had a "comfortable" block to walk without being late for it, then the shooting absolutely, positively had to have taken place before that bus arrived. That is in keeping with Markham's testimonial estimate, whether her watch was ahead or behind slightly or not.

This, for Charlie Black's edification, is "certifiable evidence" that shows when the murder had taken place by, tho' not at what time. The bus schedule would have been given every bit as much weight as any police records that may have existed, and in fact the police record only can show that the shooting had taken place some time before 1:16.

The only "evidence" that police records had or have as to the time of the shooting is the personal recollections and time estimates of people who did not look at their watches (e.g., "a few minutes later, the police arrived" - how long is "a few minutes?"). Beyond that, there are the Wrights, who called the phone operator to report the shooting right after it happened (according to their story published October 12, 1964 in The New Leader), who are discussed below.

We all know that TF Bowley looked at his watch, and had noted that it read 1:10. In his affidavit, he had said that he did not witness the shooting, so he arrived after it took place and after the gunman had fled. (We should also note that by this time, Markham's bus would have already been departing its stop to take her to work if she hadn't been distracted.)

What Bowley did not say in his affidavit, but which he told me, is that the reason he'd looked at his watch was because he was supposed to have picked up his wife at the telephone company (which he did say) at 1:00 (which he didn't), and that he was already late when he'd swung onto 10th. As he'd stopped, his chief concern - besides ensuring that his daughter didn't see the carnage ahead - was "how much later am I going to be?" As it turned out, it didn't much matter since his wife - a telephone operator - had had to work late due to the increased phone traffic after the assassination. She wasn't relieved of duty until after 4:00 p.m.

(Incidentally, the reason that he did not give an affidavit until 11/25 was because he'd told the cops when they'd arrived that he could provide no information material to the shooting and that he was already late to pick up his wife from work. He promised to give them a statement when he'd come back from a weekend in Austin, which they accepted and which he did.)

Finally, the Wrights: as noted, they lived a block from 10th & Patton, at 501 E 10th at the corner of Denver. They related to George and Patricia Nash of The New Leader that Mrs. Wright had "dialed '0'" to report the shooting (a common practice in the times before 911 emergency calls). The operator - presumably in "emergency mode" after the report of a possible murder, even despite the heavy call volume after the assassination - called the police and relayed their address and information about the shooting.

There is, unfortunately, no record of when all of this transpired. At 1:18 - two minutes after Tom Bowley (not Donnie Benavides) had called in the shooting over the radio - DPD dispatch told responding officers that the address was "501 East Tenth," which was the Wrights' address. At this point, they definitely had the information. Also according to the Nashes' article, at that time, 1:18, Dudley Wright Jr., who was on duty as his father's funeral home, received a call from DPD to dispatch an ambulance to the Wrights' address, and punched a slip in a time clock noting the time he received the information.

There is a problem with this. Mrs Wright said she "didn't wait a minute" before she called the operator, after having heard the shots, looked out of her window and seen a man lying in the street. If we are to believe that police first learned of this only immediately before the time they broadcast the info over Channel 1 and called Dudley Hughes Funeral Home for an ambulance (1:18), then only a few things can be deduced from this:

1. Mrs Wright did not call the operator "immediately," but instead waited several minutes before doing so. That means that she would have waited to see Tom Bowley drive around the corner some time after the shooting, stop his car, admonish his daughter to stay put, walk up the street to the crime scene, and stand around for a while before taking the radio mike from Donnie Benavides and calling the cops ... and then waiting another minute or so; or
   
2. Mrs Wright did call immediately, bu the operator did not consider a shooting - with someone lying in the street afterward - to be of any great import given the news of the President's death, and sat on the information for several minutes before deciding that the police should be notified; or alternately, that she first took a few minutes to notify her supervisor (possibly powdering her nose on the way?) to get permission to notify the police of a shooting; or
   
3. Mrs Wright did call immediately, and the operator also notified the police immediately, but either it took a few minutes for the operator's message to actually get to the dispatchers, or it took the dispatchers a few minutes to assign any priority to it (since they had so much else to think about, what with the assassination site being shaken down, etc.), or else that they themselves sat on the information for several minutes before deciding to broadcast it (after putting two and two together?).
   

If there are other possible scenarios explaining how and why Mrs Wright's report took until 1:18 to be broadcast, they are escaping me at the moment, and they're worth considering. (Anyone?)

Taking all of this into account, the three most probative bits of information - only two of which we have that I'm aware of - are Helen Markham's bus schedule, the time of the radio call-in by Bowley, and the time of the operator's receiving Mrs Wright's call. All of these entities - the bus company, the police and the phone company - all had to operate on reasonably accurate times, and recorded anything of consequence that happened or any deviations from the norm (e.g., that the bus was late to its stop).

To my knowledge, no effort was made to determine who took Mrs Wright's call or what she did with the information, since according to Frank Wright, the police were not interested in hearing his version of events while he and they were at the crime scene, and the Wrights are not listed on any witness list. That something is not on the record does not mean that it didn't happen, only that it wasn't recorded.

Of those, as noted, we don't know when Mrs Wright called, or when her information was relayed; we DO know the bus schedule; and while we know what time the radio call was made, we DON'T know how long before the radio call that the shooting took place. We will leave Bowley's watch out of the equation because, according to his own description, it was not a particularly fancy watch, nor one that he absolutely made sure was accurate even weekly (such as by calling a time-of-day service).

(It is possible, however, to determine from Dallas School District records what time Bowley's daughter's elementary school let out, which also would have been according to a regular schedule. Since he was planning to pick up his wife at 1:00 to leave on a weekend vacation, either the school - or that particular grade - let out before 1:00, or his daughter had special permission to leave early, which he did not indicate to me was the case. We could then determine the time it would take to drive from the school to 10th & Denver, and to walk - or trot - a few houses to the shooting, and we'd have an approximation of what time the shooting took place before.)

The fact that his watch read the time that Helen Markham should have been boarding the bus (but clearly wasn't), and that the shooting had already taken place, however, does suggest that his watch was at least reasonably accurate. The only question is whether it took six minutes before he was able to take the microphone from Benavides.

The bottom line, however, is that Mrs Markham's regular - and successful - routine and the bus company's schedule would have been - barring anything unusual - also accepted as "official" evidence. That it wasn't entered into evidence before the WC could be because it didn't support its theory of "Oswald did it," since it is quite clear that, even if he ran part of the way, LHO could not have gotten to where he is purported to have been in under eight minutes: he'd have had to maintain a pretty brisk clip, an outright run (tho' not an actual sprint) to have done so.

The DPD tape only shows what time the incident was reported, not the time it occurred, and its evidentiary value is thus reduced significantly beside the bus's schedule and Mrs Markham's regular routine in meeting it.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Since Markham was going to meet a 1:10 bus (using the later figure) and she still had a "comfortable" block to walk without being late for it, then the shooting absolutely, positively had to have taken place before that bus arrived.

Gary Mack tells me that Markham's bus was scheduled to arrive at 1.12 and that the the next one was at 1.22.

I think Markham herself said the bus came at 1.15, and someone has suggested that 3 minutes late constituted "on time" by bus co. standards.

If Markham arrived at the corner at 1.06 - 1.07, as I think she testified, then she had a good five minutes to make it to her bus stop, just over a block away(?). This suggests that she was right on schedule by her own time estimates, which were based on her final glance at the clock in her apartment building.

I have asked Gary if he has information on the bus's scheduled time of arrival at a stop near the Eatwell Cafe. If anyone can cite the WC Vol/Page No. of the bus schedule, it would be appreciated.

Assuming Markham intended to get a 1.12-1.15 bus, I am guessing that she was due at work at 2 p.m. I am further guessing that the 1.12 would ordinarily get her to work in good time but that the 1.22 (which might really be a 1.25) might land her in hot water with her boss, who was Greek. And you know what Greeks can be like if you show up late.

[Ed LeDoux]

Hello Mr. Black

Thank you for an articulate response. I do tend to shy away from threads that use too much supposition as their foundation.

It is fine for minor points but not as a basis for major sticking points. I guess I am still hoping for a deductive sleuth to use logical means to unravel some of the mystery we are left with.

The Jacket is a major sticking point with me, it just doesn't add up to have such a "damning" piece of evidence but it isn't photographed at the scene in situ or even with the rest of the evidence back at the station. It is not used for the lineups.

It just shows up later when needed.

The wallet too is another ace up the sleeve only to be pulled if absolutely needed. The hulls, smooth and slim, not pregnant and bulging. The descriptions of the shooter. The paraffin test. The bus transfer. The taxi ride. The line ups. Each of these can seem solid till you begin to look at them closely until they crumble apart.

You are correct with all other factors considered, the time element just isn't that crucial. I find the tapes suspect, and would rather find an independent source to corroborate the time. In a court the tapes would be seen as solid, but I am not a court. I think I would get a better deal from a shady used car salesman (Callaway) than those tapes. I have seen first hand several local police attempts to use spliced and edited tapes to try and circumvent justice. Even when caught red handed they seem to get away with these attempts. I believe it is in the unwritten handbook/playbook ever since audio and video tapes were allowed into court, that no matter what, if it isn't on the tape it never happened.

This case has too many star witnesses who didn't see anything, their best is really the worst, too many damning pieces of evidence with no chain. Was this all supposed to have fallen apart years ago and yet some dark matter is still adhering it together? Mentally on some higher plain I have moved on past even seeing LHO as a factor in this mess, he is like a common denominator which should be ignored till the end of the equation.

My bottom line is that I not only do not know the time of the shooting, but the identity of the shooter was never clear. This is another discussion, tho interesting, could be carried forward endlessly and still yield no factual results.

Agreed.

I just want the facts. The other side (WC/HSCA/Government/etc.,) wants to fit that square peg in the circular hole no matter how many laws of nature it breaks. That is why I opine the time is closer to 1:10 than 1:15. Really I couldn't care less if Tippit was shot on the way to the morgue, it does not affect the outcome. Tippit is still dead and they got Oswald.

For the time to matter LHO would have to be taking a circuitous route which just happens to put him in front of the apartment

of JD's girlfriend at the exact moment Tippit pulls up. Even then no big deal just walk on. But no we are expected to swallow the story that Tippit is protecting and serving at that moment stopping every male between 20 and 30 some odd years old and just happens to strike oil. Why would the DPD be looking for a pedestrian, unless they were looking for LHO and their records show he had no license and no registered vehicle, or they just knew him, he was the mark. Tippit would know LHO as the guy eating breakfast at the same diner, but if they were strangers, a cop and your average Joe nobody, Tippit would have even more of a reason to pass him by. A familiar face of the guy at the diner, not much more.

FWIW your not ANAL your just chronologically exact and that could be a liability in this inquiry.

[Antti Hynonen]

As I recall the Tippit killing has been discussed on a few other threads and one of the valuable pieces of information (evidence) discussed were the DPD radio dispatch transcripts.

My recollection is that the general conclusion was that these transcripts did not include all pertinent and accurate "timestamps". Forum member Mark Knight wanted to see if he could obtain an unaltered copy of the original recording to verify some of the times, from other researchers. Apparently such (sound/recorded)material was not readily available, unlike the (easily altered) transcripts which are available through a few sources. Gary Mack, any info on recordings of Dallas police radio dispatch from 11/22/63 early afternoon, from 1 p.m. to 2:30 p.m. would do nicely?

It is entirely possible (even likely) that this evidence has been modified to help support the official Oswald timeline, allowing him just enough time to rapidly walk from his N. Beckley address to 10th and Patton to kill Tippitt.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Taking all of this into account, the three most probative bits of information - only two of which we have that I'm aware of - are Helen Markham's bus schedule, the time of the radio call-in by Bowley, and the time of the operator's receiving Mrs Wright's call.

Gary Gack referred me to Dave Perry for info. on the bus schedule. On checking Dave's site I found the following:

"With respect to witness Helen Markham, the Warren Commission claimed her bus was to arrive at the northeast corner of Jefferson and Patton at 1:15 PM. This would make it appear that the shooting could have taken place closer to 1:16 PM. However, I discovered the bus schedule (CE630H) actually shows the bus should arrive at approximately 1:12 PM. In my view the Commission changed the time to give 3 additional minutes so they would have an easier time in proving Oswald could have reached the scene."

http://home.comcast.net/~dperry1943/unsolved.html

[J. Raymond Carroll]

As I recall the Tippit killing has been discussed on a few other threads and one of the valuable pieces of information (evidence) discussed were the DPD radio dispatch transcripts.

Antii: Congratulations on your appointment as moderator. I note that the Forum Index lists only 2 threads on Tippit, and I think quite a few members would be very thankful if the Index relating to Tippit could be made comprehensive.

[Duke Lane]

Since Markham was going to meet a 1:10 bus (using the later figure) and she still had a "comfortable" block to walk without being late for it, then the shooting absolutely, positively had to have taken place before that bus arrived.

Gary Mack tells me that Markham's bus was scheduled to arrive at 1.12 and that the the next one was at 1.22. I think Markham herself said the bus came at 1.15, and someone has suggested that 3 minutes late constituted "on time" by bus co. standards.

If Markham arrived at the corner at 1.06 - 1.07, as I think she testified, then she had a good five minutes to make it to her bus stop, just over a block away(?). This suggests that she was right on schedule by her own time estimates, which were based on her final glance at the clock in her apartment building.

I have asked Gary if he has information on the bus's scheduled time of arrival at a stop near the Eatwell Cafe. If anyone can cite the WC Vol/Page No. of the bus schedule, it would be appreciated.

Assuming Markham intended to get a 1.12-1.15 bus, I am guessing that she was due at work at 2 p.m. I am further guessing that the 1.12 would ordinarily get her to work in good time but that the 1.22 (which might really be a 1.25) might land her in hot water with her boss, who was Greek. And you know what Greeks can be like if you show up late.

I was going from memory, and 1:12 seems about right, come to think of it. That doesn't change the basic point of my statement, that "the shooting absolutely, positively had to have taken place before that bus arrived," whether that was at 1:10, or two minutes later at 1:12.

The schedule, as I'd noted, was published in a Commission Document, meaning you won't find it in any of the volumes. I'll see if I can't get ahold of that info for you, and possibly publish it here or elsewhere if it's not online already (I haven't found it yet among the Mary Ferrell collection, but then, I'm not sure which one I'm looking for!).

While three minutes late might be considered "on time" as far as a bus company is concerned, getting to the bus stop after its scheduled departure doesn't constitute being "on time" as a bus rider watches the bus disappear into the distance because it did depart on time! Anyone who regularly rides a bus knows not only to be there when the bus is supposed to depart, otherwise they very well might miss it, but they also know that, while busses aren't supposed to depart ahead of their scheduled time, it does occasionally happen, and thus they know to arrive at the bus stop not merely when it's supposed to depart, but before that!

Is two minutes ahead of scheduled departure too far in advance, assuming it would take Markham 3-4 minutes to walk that block and cross a busy boulevard at a leisurely pace? I would think not, since one never knows what obstacles might arise, such as particularly heavy traffic (such as a funeral departing from Dudley Hughes'?), for example, that might delay someone from crossing the street to catch the bus.

As to Greeks, I've never worked for one, but I think ol' Helen testified at one point that she was fired or otherwise chastised because of all the bother her witnessing the shooting was causing at work (in particular, I think, that Mark Lane was calling her there, and maybe the FBI, too).

[Antti Hynonen]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...lite=%2BTippitt

J. Raymond Carroll Posted Today, 03:59 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Feb 16 2007, 12:19 PM)

As I recall the Tippit killing has been discussed on a few other threads and one of the valuable pieces of information (evidence) discussed were the DPD radio dispatch transcripts.

Antii: Congratulations on your appointment as moderator. I note that the Forum Index lists only 2 threads on Tippit, and I think quite a few members would be very thankful if the Index relating to Tippit could be made comprehensive.

Thank you.

Above I attempted to attach a link, to search results relating to Tippitt, I counted at least 3 threads with Tippitt in the thread title. Further, Tippitt is sometimes mistakenly spelled Tippett or Tippet etc. meaning more searches may produce more threads. I'm not sure what you mean by making a comprehensive index to Tippitt...

Nevertheless, I hope this helps. Here's the DPD dispatch thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6826

Edited February 16, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Steve Thomas]

Duke,

The schedule, as I'd noted, was published in a Commission Document, meaning you won't find it in any of the volumes. I'll see if I can't get ahold of that info for you, and possibly publish it here or elsewhere if it's not online already (I haven't found it yet among the Mary Ferrell collection, but then, I'm not sure which one I'm looking for!).

From my reading, it appears that the Secret Service, especially the local Dallas office was given the task of tracking down various bus schedules; so I would look for reports from them.

CD 689 is a report from SS Agent James Patterson about various bus schedules in the City of Dallas. Look around pp. 11+

Also the WC testimony of Cecil McWatters - the bus driver has a schedule of his route in 16H972 (I think it's CE 372)

The print is so tiny in the Commission Documents that it's hard to follow.

Steve Thomas

[Chuck Robbins]

J. Raymond

A lack of contradictory evidence proves nothing and needs not to, as their is no certifiable evidence that the shooting occuured at 1:08 or 1:13. If there was, we would still not be discussing this. Whether or not there was a trial may have been of no consequence. Were their a trial, I don't doubt that the police record would have been weighted heavier than the personal timepieces of the two civilians.

However, as I have stated before, I feel that there is no evidence that LHO shot anyone in his entire life..... other than himself. And he did not even do that particularly well !

Charlie Black

Charlie Black

There is the report, from a dallas police officer, who, after following the ambulance which carried Tippit to the hospital, gives Tippit's time of death, as 1:15 p.m. on 11/22/1963.

I have posted this report before. It supports a shooting time closer to 1:00.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

would someone commit on the direction the murderer of Tippit was traveling when spotted by Markum?

If this man was walking from west to east Markum must have seen hjm cross the street in front of her as she approached the intersection.

jim feemster

Mrs. Markham.

I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.

Mr. Ball.

Did you see any man walking at that time?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.

Mr. Ball.

Almost across Patton?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Walking in what direction?

Mrs. Markham.

I guess this would be south.

Mr. Ball.

Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?

Mrs. Markham.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball.

Walking away from you, wasn't he?

Mrs. Markham.

He was walking up 10th, away from me.

Mr. Ball.

To your left?

Mrs. Markham.

Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.

Mr. Ball.

Had he reached the curb yet?

Mrs. Markham.

Almost ready to get up on the curb. (WCIII, 307)

So Helen Markham did see the gunman before the shooting. She saw him as he was about to step onto the curb to walk east.

Although the man was walking west to east when she saw him, she did not say that the man had come from the west. He could just as easily, on this testimony, have come from the south, walking north on Patton along the western side, before crossing the street just as Helen Markham was coming into sight of the intersection.

If anyone (eg Duke Lane) is familiar with the terrain that Markham was traversing it would be interesting to have an estimate of how close to the corner Markham would need to be before she could see a man walking on the far side of the intersection, assuming she walked looking straight ahead.

On the question of TIme, David Perry emailed me a copy of Robert Barret's FBI report dated March 17, 1964. This is a CD, not in the 26 vols. Barret checked the bus schedule and reported, as Gary Mack had told me, that the next bus was due at 1.12 and every ten minutes thereafter.

I am unable to copy or otherwise post this document, but will gladly forward Dave Perry's email to any member who emails me (not PM).

[Duke Lane]

If anyone (eg Duke Lane) is familiar with the terrain that Markham was traversing it would be interesting to have an estimate of how close to the corner Markham would need to be before she could see a man walking on the far side of the intersection, assuming she walked looking straight ahead.

See this link: Dealey Plaza & Oak Cliff Virtual Tour.

As to your specifics, there are too many variables to consider: what was Mrs Markham's vision? Without contacts or glasses, I'd have to be within a foot of something to see what it was, and probably pretty close to being AT the intersection before realizing that anything was moving across the way!!

How did she walk: head up, eyes ahead, or dawdly, eyes watching where her feet were placed, looking up only when necessary (like when you get to an intersection)? You KNOW people walk different ways, including like that and lots of ways in between ... and we ALL know what happens when you "assume!"

I don't think there's a simple, easy or dependable answer to that.

On the question of TIme, David Perry emailed me a copy of Robert Barret's FBI report dated March 17, 1964. This is a CD, not in the 26 vols. Barret checked the bus schedule and reported, as Gary Mack had told me, that the next bus was due at 1.12 and every ten minutes thereafter. I am unable to copy or otherwise post this document, but will gladly forward Dave Perry's email to any member who emails me (not PM).

It is CD630(h), found on the Mary Farrell Foundation Archives. It reads:

The distance from the front door of the washateria

[sic]

at 328 East 9th Street to the northwest corner of the intersection at East 10th and Patton Streets was walked and timed and this time was two minutes and thirty seconds.

It was ascertained from the Dallas Transit System that during the afternoon hours of every weekday a bus going to the downtown area of Dallas can be boarded about every ten minutes at the corner of Patton and Jefferson Streets

[sic - Jefferson

Boulevard

]

. The bus is scheduled to pass this point at about 1:12 PM and every ten minutes thereafter.

One can only presume that it was Helen Markham who walked the route in her usual manner when such timing was made.

[James Richards]

Duke,

I do not wish to divert this thread but what do you know about Markham's son, James? A few months before the assassination he had been paroled from Huntsville doing time on a burglary conviction and since had been sought for parole violations. Helen Markham was supposedly under quite some stress at the time.

I believe James was eventually nabbed in early 1964.

James

[J. Raymond Carroll]

How did she walk: head up, eyes ahead, or dawdly, eyes watching where her feet were placed, looking up only when necessary (like when you get to an intersection)? You KNOW people walk different ways, including like that and lots of ways in between ... and we ALL know what happens when you "assume!"

I don't think there's a simple, easy or dependable answer to that.

Thanks to Duke Lane for these links.

I guess I phrased the question rather badly. The late Larry Ray Harris took me to the scene years ago and I made some video, including the view Markham would have had while waiting to cross the street. But at the time I did not think to videotape the view Markham would have had from further back, as she approached the intersection. I have a vague recollection that there is an uphill slope part of the way from Markham's apartment building going towards the intersection, and that the intersection does not become visible to a walker until he/she reaches the top of that hill.

What I would like to ascertain is how close to (or how far from) the intersection a person (anyone with normal or corrected vision who was looking straight ahead) would be when the intersection first comes comes into view.