FBI file links Kennedy to Monroe's death

[Kathleen Collins]

In discussing JFK, we are talking about an assassinated president. But we are also not, I repeat not, talking about a saint. Had JFK and his brother been just a little more faithful to their wives, MM might have lived to die of old age, with all the respect that she warranted.

As much as I hold her in high esteem, I just wish Monroe hadn't given in to promiscuity so much, or conducted affairs with married men time and again. She would have lived longer and her life would have held more quality. I wish, too, she would have put the cork in the bottle.

Kathy

[Greg Parker]

I would like to add my two cents to the moralizing here about MM. This forum is about the assassination of JFK. MM is relevant, regardless of whatever else she did in life, insofar as she apparently had affairs with both JFK and RFK, and she may have been murdered as a result. So who was at fault here? Did MM go after these two brothers, or was it the other way around? In any case it is hardly a good reflection on the Kennedys, with JFK known to be a habitual womanizer, yet it is others who are being criticized here for treating MM with disrespect.

Ron, let me get this straight... the Kennedy's disrespected Monroe because they apparently had affairs with her. These apparent affairs may have culminated in her murder, meaning she either went after them or, they went after her, but either way, it reflects poorly on the K's.

It is this kind of woolly thinking which provides an excuse for the media treatment of conspiracy theorists. Having followed a lot of your posts here, I am taken a little aback by this from you, Ron.

I believe it was JFK and RFK whom MM reportedly said treated her like "a piece of meat." So if MM seems to be treated with disrespect in the JFK case, I would like to ask who is ultimately responsible for that.

Yes. As you've established, this came from Robert Saltzer who claimed to have married and divorced Monroe in Mexico all in one weekend in 1952 and remained a lifelong friend and confidante to her. Let's see who disrespected MM, shall we - without qualification? Monroe was writing checks in Los Angeles on the date of the alleged marriage, and a witness for this cited by Waltzer later admitted being paid for that service. The only evidence existing which shows he even ever met Monroe was a photo of them together. Waltzer spun this story into two books. I think you'll be hard pressed to come up with one MM biographer who gives Saltzer's claims any serious consideration.

In discussing JFK, we are talking about an assassinated president. But we are also not, I repeat not, talking about a saint. Had JFK and his brother been just a little more faithful to their wives, MM might have lived to die of old age, with all the respect that she warranted.

Yeah, forget about JFK's degenerative back problem and Addison's. All he realllllly had was good ol' Shagger's Back. As for RFK, what can I say? Buy a biography that doesn't rely on smear and innuendo.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Greg Parker

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

For four decades there have been rumours that Marilyn Monroe's death was not a simple suicide. Now a Los Angeles-based Australian writer and director, Philippe Mora, has uncovered an FBI document that throws up a chilling new scenario.

The screen legend Marilyn Monroe...the FBI report says she "expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt", but it suggests she was left to die.

........................

"Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt. The psychiatrist left word for Marilyn to take a drive in the fresh air but did not come to see her until after she was known to be dead."

Perhaps Mr. Mora doesn't understand the prevalence of FBI documents that contain demonstrable falsehoods reported as fact, or the instances in which purportedly genuine FBI documents are demonstrable fabrications. If not, he can perhaps be forgiven for that lack of knowledge.

However, even the slightest bit of research would indicate to him the very conditions that suggest Ms. Monroe was murdered preclude the contents of the purported FBI document being true. To wit:

Ms. Monroe's death was attributed by cornoner Thomas Noguchi to "acute barbiturate poisoning, ingestion of overdose." The presence of barbituates at the death scene made such a finding tenable, but Dr. Noguchi's autopsy results revealed that the lethal dose could not have been ingested orally. For, while the toxicology report found significant traces of barbituates in the liver and the bloodstream - congruent with barbituate poisoning - Noguchi's autopsy stipulated that: "... The stomach is almost completely empty. The contents is brownish mucoid fluid. The volume is estimated to be no more than 20 cc. No residue of the pills is noted. A smear made from the gastric contents and examined under the polarized microscope shows no refractile crystals. The mucosa shows marked congestion and submucosal petechial hemorrhage diffusely. The duodenum shows no ulcer. The contents of the duodenum is also examined under polarized microscope and shows no refractile crystals."

Had Ms. Monroe orally ingested a lethal dose of barbituates, Dr. Noguchi would have found traces of same in the stomach, along with the tell-tale discolouration that accompanies such ingestion. He did not. Nor did he locate the refractile crystals associated with such an oral overdose. Moreover, the 20 cc - the maximum estimate he made for the volume of stomach fluid found - would be equivalent to a large sewing thimble full of liquid. How does one down dozens of pills - presumably with a water "chaser" - and leave behind so little in the digestive tract?

Two other hypothetical means of barbituate overdose do exist.

The first is by intravenous injection, which would leave the barbituate level found in the bloodstream and liver, without leaving any tell-tale residue in the stomach. Despite having searched for such an injection site, Dr. Noguchi found no such marks upon her body.

The second means is by enema.

Needless to say, neither of the latter two means of overdose are congruent with "suicide," but would suggest murder.

Mr. Mora's speculations are fantasy, irrespective of the unproven bona fides of the purported FBI documentation.

[Myra Bronstein]

Is the source of MM's "reported" statement one of the discredited sources cited by Anthony Summers?

I don't remember where I read it, but Googling produced the book The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe by her former husband Robert Slatzer, in which she is quoted as telling one of them (I assume Bobby), "You two have been passing me around like a piece of meat."

Whether she herself said it or not, there would appear to be some truth to the statement.

Book for sale on eBay

Well, given the post assassination assassination the Kennedy men have been subjected to, and the fact (I consider it a fact) that they were framed for Marilyn's murder, I would not be at all surprised if the "piece of meat" comment was part of the ongoing character assassination of the men. I would need a super reliable source to believe it. Obviously it's subjective whether or not Slatzer is a good source. But a brief google search turned up this:

"He gained the media spotlight with his 1974 book "The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe," in which he claimed that he and Monroe had met when she was a struggling model and were secretly married in Mexico in 1952. He wrote that 20th Century Fox Studios head Darryl F. Zanuck ordered the marriage dissolved over concerns about Monroe's image, and that the documents were destroyed.

In the 1980s, he sent a letter to county supervisors arguing that Monroe was murdered and a grand jury should investigate her death. The grand jury rejected the request. He wrote a second book on Monroe, "The Marilyn Files," that was published in 1992.

Slatzer was never able to conclusively prove the marriage took place to the satisfaction of her many biographers, but, likewise, attempts to conclusively disprove his claims have fallen short as well."

http://www.mst3kinfo.com/rolodex/Slatzer.html

"We lived together as man and wife for two days. But then it was all over . . . Our relationship was strained and I finally decided that it had to come to an end. 'I think we should go back to Tijuana and get the marriage annulled,' I suggested.

Slatzer wrote that, on their return to Mexico, the official who had married them refused to grant an annulment, but burnt their marriage certificate after being given a $50 bribe."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn41...30/ai_n14606802

So this guy claims he was married to MM for two days but the proof was burned. And in the two obits I found of him there is a huge contradiction about why the marriage ended.

I think I'll give the Kennedy brothers the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[Ron Ecker]

Having followed a lot of your posts here, I am taken a little aback by this from you, Ron.

On Saltzer or Waltzer, I knew nothing about him. I just remembered hearing the term used that I quoted for the menage a trois. I Googled it and found a source. I don't know if MM actually said it or not.

I've said all that I care to say on JFK and RFK taking turns with MM, if that is in fact what happened.

Maybe I'm just jealous. My brother and I have been after Jessica Alba, but she won't give us the time of day.

[Myra Bronstein]

For four decades there have been rumours that Marilyn Monroe's death was not a simple suicide. Now a Los Angeles-based Australian writer and director, Philippe Mora, has uncovered an FBI document that throws up a chilling new scenario.

The screen legend Marilyn Monroe...the FBI report says she "expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt", but it suggests she was left to die.

........................

"Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt. The psychiatrist left word for Marilyn to take a drive in the fresh air but did not come to see her until after she was known to be dead."

Perhaps Mr. Mora doesn't understand the prevalence of FBI documents that contain demonstrable falsehoods reported as fact, or the instances in which purportedly genuine FBI documents are demonstrable fabrications. If not, he can perhaps be forgiven for that lack of knowledge.

However, even the slightest bit of research would indicate to him the very conditions that suggest Ms. Monroe was murdered preclude the contents of the purported FBI document being true. To wit:

Ms. Monroe's death was attributed by cornoner Thomas Noguchi to "acute barbiturate poisoning, ingestion of overdose." The presence of barbituates at the death scene made such a finding tenable, but Dr. Noguchi's autopsy results revealed that the lethal dose could not have been ingested orally. For, while the toxicology report found significant traces of barbituates in the liver and the bloodstream - congruent with barbituate poisoning - Noguchi's autopsy stipulated that: "... The stomach is almost completely empty. The contents is brownish mucoid fluid. The volume is estimated to be no more than 20 cc. No residue of the pills is noted. A smear made from the gastric contents and examined under the polarized microscope shows no refractile crystals. The mucosa shows marked congestion and submucosal petechial hemorrhage diffusely. The duodenum shows no ulcer. The contents of the duodenum is also examined under polarized microscope and shows no refractile crystals."

Had Ms. Monroe orally ingested a lethal dose of barbituates, Dr. Noguchi would have found traces of same in the stomach, along with the tell-tale discolouration that accompanies such ingestion. He did not. Nor did he locate the refractile crystals associated with such an oral overdose. Moreover, the 20 cc - the maximum estimate he made for the volume of stomach fluid found - would be equivalent to a large sewing thimble full of liquid. How does one down dozens of pills - presumably with a water "chaser" - and leave behind so little in the digestive tract?

Two other hypothetical means of barbituate overdose do exist.

The first is by intravenous injection, which would leave the barbituate level found in the bloodstream and liver, without leaving any tell-tale residue in the stomach. Despite having searched for such an injection site, Dr. Noguchi found no such marks upon her body.

The second means is by enema.

Needless to say, neither of the latter two means of overdose are congruent with "suicide," but would suggest murder.

Mr. Mora's speculations are fantasy, irrespective of the unproven bona fides of the purported FBI documentation.

Right, no needle marks. Death by micky finn + toxic enema.

At least according to former Los Angeles prosecutor John W. Miner who was head of the District Attorney’s medical-legal section when Marilyn Monroe died. And he worked with Noguchi who has so much integrity it almost ruined his career when he told the truth on the RFK murder.

Miner (not minor) details here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/co...lines-columnone

[Greg Parker]

Having followed a lot of your posts here, I am taken a little aback by this from you, Ron.

On Saltzer or Waltzer, I knew nothing about him. I just remembered hearing the term used that I quoted for the menage a trois. I Googled it and found a source. I don't know if MM actually said it or not.

My mistake, Ron. It's neither. Correct name (as shown elsewhere in the thread) is Slatzer. Too many names running around in my head. I don't know if she said it, either, but Slatzer is the only source, and his word is hardly compelling.

I've said all that I care to say on JFK and RFK taking turns with MM, if that is in fact what happened.

Hopefully you'll find something more to say when/if you come to realise how bad the sources are for this.

Maybe I'm just jealous. My brother and I have been after Jessica Alba, but she won't give us the time of day.

Hang in there!

[James Richards]

My brother and I have been after Jessica Alba, but she won't give us the time of day. (Greg Parker)

I feel your pain, Greg. Beyonce won't return my calls.

I might have posted this document before. If so, my apologies.

James

[John Geraghty]

The finding of this document could be timed to coincide with the increased coverage of the RFK assassination. Shane O'Sullivan's Newsnight piece would have upset a few in Langley and D.C., perhaps this is a reprisal of sorts. John mentioned the fact that Talbot's book will be coming out soon. And of course the Dealey Plaza UK conference is this weekend, let us not forget that. The Australian press are obviously giving us something to talk about in the pub in Canterbury.

John

[Greg Parker]

My brother and I have been after Jessica Alba, but she won't give us the time of day. (Greg Parker)

I feel your pain, Greg. Beyonce won't return my calls.

I might have posted this document before. If so, my apologies.

James

Thanks James. You've just blown my cover as "Ron Ecker".

Seriously, I don't have a clue who Jessica Alba is. I'll google. And Beyonce sounds like a perfume. What the hell is going on? When I was a young whippersnapper, the object of crushes had real names. Like Hayley Mills. And then Jane Fonda and Claudine Longet.

[James Richards]

Greg,

I'll see your Hayley Mills, Jane Fonda and Claudine Longet, and raise you Ann Margaret.

Back to RFK for a moment, that's the first time I have heard of this alleged girl in El Paso. If true, I guess she would have written a book by now.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

The finding of this document could be timed to coincide with the increased coverage of the RFK assassination. Shane O'Sullivan's Newsnight piece would have upset a few in Langley and D.C., perhaps this is a reprisal of sorts. John mentioned the fact that Talbot's book will be coming out soon. And of course the Dealey Plaza UK conference is this weekend, let us not forget that. The Australian press are obviously giving us something to talk about in the pub in Canterbury.

John

And then Bugliosi's book will be coming out... on President Kennedy's birthday, May 29.

So the propagandists are ramping up big time.

[Terry Mauro]

The finding of this document could be timed to coincide with the increased coverage of the RFK assassination. Shane O'Sullivan's Newsnight piece would have upset a few in Langley and D.C., perhaps this is a reprisal of sorts. John mentioned the fact that Talbot's book will be coming out soon. And of course the Dealey Plaza UK conference is this weekend, let us not forget that. The Australian press are obviously giving us something to talk about in the pub in Canterbury.

John

And then Bugliosi's book will be coming out... on President Kennedy's birthday, May 29.

So the propagandists are ramping up big time.

******************************************************

"And then Bugliosi's book will be coming out... on President Kennedy's birthday, May 29. So the propagandists are ramping up big time."

You got that right, my friend. Operation Mockingbird, ready to kick in at full tilt boogie.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks James. You've just blown my cover as "Ron Ecker".

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Good one, Greg!

Really!!

--Thomas

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Edited March 20, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

My brother and I have been after Jessica Alba, but she won't give us the time of day. (Greg Parker)

I feel your pain, Greg. Beyonce won't return my calls.

I might have posted this document before. If so, my apologies.

James

____________________________

James,

In your post #39, above, thanks for posting the "U.S. Government Memorandum" to FBI's Belmont (from, unfortunately, someone I've never heard of in "the U.S. Government" and therefore must do a lot of "research" on, but never mind, what I find interesting is that the original (typewritten) subjects of the memorandum were not "Allegations of RFK's sleeping around and his denial thereof" or something to that effect (lol), but rather 1) Meyer Lansky, and 2) Anti-racketeering, and then, almost as an afterthought, 3) the handwritten name of "Robert F. Kennedy." Interesting indeed. Does anyone have a plausible explanation for the juxtaposition of Lansky, anti-racketeering, and the insinuation that RFK was sleeping with/ had slept with a woman from El Paso and/or M.M.? DOH-- I guess the obvious answer is that Lansky and Hoffa were sending Bobby a message through "the U.S. Government" that "he couldn't ignore." IOW, they probably had the goods on him and just wanted him to know that and wanted him to know that the FBI knew that.... Sorry, I guess I've answered my own question...

--Thomas

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