NASA Warped our View of Space

[Kevin M. West]

Wrong in so many ways I don't know where to begin. I'll keep it short as I've gotta go make dinner.

There was delay in the responses in the apollo audio

In a translunar trajectory, they spent much more time in contact with each station on the ground than they would in a low orbit.

The deep space network, which was used to provide continuous coverage by placing dishes around the world, was build AFTER john glenn's flight.

[Dave Greer]

Apollo 1 couldn't even get their radios to work correctly between two buildings , yet we are suppossed to believe that Houston was able to communicate with an Apollo space craft , 240,000 miles out into the cosmic radiation of deep space , on the radioactive lunar surface , with NO DELAYS , NO STATIC , NO INTERFERENCE and CRYSTAL CLEAR , INSTANTANEOUS REPLIES every time they talked !?!? .... Right .... But you want everyone to believe this is just hand waving and conjecture.

If you ask me , it looks like the pro Apollo evidence is based on rank bad science .

No delays? No static? Instantaneous replies?

I don't know what audio you've been listening to, but it's not the audio I've heard.

[Duane Daman]

I just watched the DVD's and I listened to every word the Apollo actors spoke to Houston ... Plus I have listened to numerous bogus Apollo voice recordings before , and there is absolutely no delay or static in any of them .

In fact , the audio trnasmissions from each mission of them 'landing on the moon' , are so clear that you could have heard a pin drop .... and with all that rocket engine thrust right underneath their feet too !!!

Nope , not even a vibration in the asto-actors voices as they ascended onto the moon ball simulator .

[Dave Greer]

I just watched the DVD's and I listened to every word the Apollo actors spoke to Houston ... Plus I have listened to numerous bogus Apollo voice recordings before , and there is absolutely no delay or static in any of them .

In fact , the audio trnasmissions from each mission of them 'landing on the moon' , are so clear that you could have heard a pin drop .... and with all that rocket engine thrust right underneath their feet too !!!

Nope , not even a vibration in the asto-actors voices as they ascended onto the moon ball simulator .

Well, I've had a quick hunt just to make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me. There is a complete audio recording of the entire Apollo 11 mission here:-

http://www.live365.com/stations/apollo_11_oda, which also describes which loop the recording is from.

Quick question: assume the audio is being recorded in Houston. If Armstrong says something on the moon, and Mission Control replies the instant they hear his transmission end, what is the recorded delay between Armstrong's voice ending and Mission control starting? (Assume a two second delay from moon to Earth).

If you can answer this question correctly, you've debunked part of your own theory. If you can't, then you don't understand what's going on and either myself or someone else will be happy to explain it for you.

[Duane Daman]

Sorry Dave , but in the voice recordings I just listened to , there isn't even a two second delay ... In fact , they even talked over each other at times .

There was noise , static and loads of delays in the Mercury and Gemini missions ... Yet NONE in Apollo ones ... Landing on the moon with the rocket thrust engines right beneath where they were standing , would have generated tons of noise and vibration in the astronots voices , yet there was never any sound at all .

Even Cernan and Bean couldn't manage to get their stories straight about the noise or lack of , when they allegedly landed the same type of craft on the lunar surface ... Bean went along with the voice recordings , obviously done in simulation, and told Sibrel it was completely QUIET ...While Cernan forgot about those bogus recordings done in the sims , and claimed it was VERY LOUD .

Why don't you face the facts ? ... There is NO WAY the voice transmissions from Apollo could have been coming from the moon ... There is more delay in a TV news broadcast today, coming from the middle east , than there ever was during the Apollo debacle .

[Kevin M. West]

How about a specific example Duane? I haven't heard one yet that didn't have the proper delay, yet you claim that none of them do, so it should be trivial for you to find an example.

[Duane Daman]

Go to the ALSJ and listen to the videos of the astro-actors pretending to be on the moon ... You will find plenty of examples there .

[Kevin M. West]

I didn't find any, I guess you're wrong. Can you find a single specific example?

[Duane Daman]

If you didn't hear any then you didn't go the the ALSJ , because every video there has examples of faked audio transmissions , with no proper delay time between Houston and the astronots .

Or you can buy nasa's DVD collection , 'Men on the Moon' ( teehee ) and the 'Apollo Collection' and listen to the audio transmissions with no delay in them at all .

You can also view the cheesy looking special effects where nasa was trying to make it look as though the LM was flying over the lunar surface ... I literally laughed out loud when I saw that blue screen imaging silliness !

[Dave Greer]

Sorry Dave , but in the voice recordings I just listened to , there isn't even a two second delay ... In fact , they even talked over each other at times .

I think you're showing here that you don't quite understand what's going on here, but if you could answer my simple question we'll know one way or another. I'll rephrase it to make it easier. Let's assume a two second delay from Earth to Moon (and vice versa), and that the audio is being recorded at Houston.

Armstrong says "Radio check".

Q1. If the mission controller replies "Roger" as soon as he hears Neil finish speaking, how long is the recorded gap in the audio?

a - No gap, since the reply is instant.

b - Two seconds, since that is the time delay from the moon to the earth.

c - Four seconds, since that is the delay from moon to the Earth and back again.

Q2. How long after stopping speaking does Neil hear Houston say "Roger"?

a - No gap, since the reply is instant.

b - Two seconds, since that is the time delay from the Earth to the moon.

c - Four seconds, since that is the delay from Earth to the moon and back again.

Give it a go - if you get the right answers, you've solved the problem for yourself. If you don't I'll explain it to you, providing you're as open-minded as you claim to be?

Sorry if this seems like you're being asked to go "back to school" but I'm not convinced you fully understand what is happening.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Dave Greer

[Kevin M. West]

If you didn't hear any then you didn't go the the ALSJ , because every video there has examples of faked audio transmissions , with no proper delay time between Houston and the astronots .

Or you can buy nasa's DVD collection , 'Men on the Moon' ( teehee ) and the 'Apollo Collection' and listen to the audio transmissions with no delay in them at all .

You can also view the cheesy looking special effects where nasa was trying to make it look as though the LM was flying over the lunar surface ... I literally laughed out loud when I saw that blue screen imaging silliness !

Why can't you give a single specific example? Just saying 'all of it' is no good, because whatever I pick you'll just say 'no not that one' when I show it's consistant. I want you to pick an example so you can't accuse me of cherry-picking the good bits.

[Duane Daman]

I don't have the time to cipher through those ridiculous audio transmissions on the ALSJ ... If you want to hear the bogus , overlapping , no delay transmissions , then buy nasa's DVD's ' Men on the Moon and the 'Apollo Collection ' ...

Dave ... I think you completely missed my point ... In the audio transmissions I heard , which were taken directly from the original nasa recordings , with NO editing done , there was not even a two second delay ... The astronots answered Houston , immediately .... And like I stated before ... there are more delays heard on the news , coming from Bagdad , than there was allegedly coming from 240,000 miles away in deep space ...

There was no static , no delay and the transmissions were crystal clear ... Completelty unlike the audio transmissions that came from nasa's other missions , which all took place in low earth orbit !

Why would the transmissions coming from the nearness of LEO be filled with static and delays , while those allegedly coming from the moon , have no static or delay at all ? ...

It's a real simple answer ... because they were not really coming from the moon , they were coming from much closer ... Like a moon set right here on Earth .

[Kevin M. West]

Why do you have to 'cipher through' anything? If they are all wrong, you can pick any of them, no searching required.

[Dave Greer]

I don't have the time to cipher through those ridiculous audio transmissions on the ALSJ ... If you want to hear the bogus , overlapping , no delay transmissions , then buy nasa's DVD's ' Men on the Moon and the 'Apollo Collection ' ...

Dave ... I think you completely missed my point ... In the audio transmissions I heard , which were taken directly from the original nasa recordings , with NO editing done , there was not even a two second delay ... The astronots answered Houston , immediately .... And like I stated before ... there are more delays heard on the news , coming from Bagdad , than there was allegedly coming from 240,000 miles away in deep space ...

There was no static , no delay and the transmissions were crystal clear ... Completelty unlike the audio transmissions that came from nasa's other missions , which all took place in low earth orbit !

Duane, the reason I asked you to answer the simple questions above is because I didn't think you understood the time delay between earth and moon, and your answer seems to confirm I'm right.

In Theory

Average Earth -moon distance is approx 385,000 km. Speed of light is approx 300,000 kms-1. Delay from Earth to moon is hence 1.3 seconds approx. Total delay in comms (round trip Eart-moon-Earth) is therefore approx 2.6 seconds. (This doesn't take into account any possible delays due to equipment design). How about a ball park figure of approx 3 seconds for round trip comms?

McCandless is CapCom at Houston, and audio is being recorded there. If one of the astronauts says something, and McCandless replies as soon as he hears the astronaut finish speaking (i.e. he says "over), there will be NO delay recorded in the audio. Why? Because the audio transmission is being recorded at mission control, so the recording of the astronauts voice occurs at the same time McCandless hears it. If McCandless takes a few seconds to respond, that is NOT due to the earth-moon delay, it's simply because he didn't answer straight away.

Reversing the situation, if McCandles says something, as soon as he finshes speaking, it takes approx 1.5 seconds for that fact to reach the astronauts on the moon. IF they respond straight away, then there is another 1.5 second delay before their voice is heard back at Houston. Total delay between McCandles finishing his transmission and hearing the astronauts reply? 3 seconds.

This doesn't take into consideration that the astronauts may start speaking as the same time as mission control, in which case neither party will be aware of the fact for 1.5 seconds, which can cause overlapping audio. And these delays are the expected minima, if noone's talking the delays will be larger.

In Practice

OK, lets look at an actual example of this happening. I've chosed a segment during the EVA prep in whcih we can hear both Aldrin, Armstrong and McCandless.

You can follow the audio transcript here:- http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.evaprep.html

And you can here the audio itself here:- http://www.live365.com/stations/apollo_11_oda - click on Day 5-Moonwalk-July 20. In the audio player that opens up, click on part 4 (108:12 to 108:51). Click play.

Here is a transcript. My additions in bold, highligting time delays in communication between Earth and Moon, which are completely as expected. There is also a noticeable static hiss on the recording, the occasional word gets garbled, and there is noticeable interference whenever the astronauts speak, as well as the occasional word heard as an echo.

Sorry Duane, but once again your claims just don't hold up to examination. Either you're hearing what you want to hear, or you have heard one snippet taht you think backs up your claims.

108:12:21 Aldrin: Okay. Now I'm going to Mode Select B. (Long Pause) Warning tone. (Pause) That where you want to be?

108:12:44 Armstrong: I'm in B.

108:12:45 Aldrin: (Garbled) A.

108:12:47 Armstrong: Going to A. I'm in A.

108:12:51 Aldrin: Okay. How do you read me?

108:12:53 Armstrong: I read you.

108:12:55 Aldrin: You're loud and clear.

108:12:58 Armstrong: I got another warning tone. (Pause) (Garbled)

108:13:04 Aldrin: Out now? Okay?

[They have just finished Sur-31.]

108:13:06 Aldrin: Both. PLSS mode select AR.

108:13:11 Armstrong: AR. How do you read?

108:13:16 Aldrin: Didn't get a warning tone.

108:13:17 Armstrong: I got one.

108:13:18 Aldrin: Got it? (Pause) Okay, warning tone is out. Verify PLSS O2 bottle pressure greater than 85.

108:13:33 Armstrong: It is.

108:13:35 Aldrin: Do you have voice with "each other".

108:13:38 Armstrong: Yup.

108:13:39 Aldrin: Houston, Tranquility. How do you read? Over.

NO DELAY IN MCCANDLES REPLY, AS EXPLAINED ABOVE

108:13:43 McCandless: Neil. Neil. This is Houston through Tranquility. Radio check. Over.

[Now that they are on PLSS comm, the path is from Houston through the LM to the PLSS antennas, then back through the LM EVA antenna (which they raised earlier) and on to Houston.]

APROX 4 SECOND DELAY, AS EXPECTED for EARTH - MOON - EARTH

108:13:53 Armstrong: Roger. Houston, this is Neil. How do you read?

NO DELAY IN MCCANDLES REPLY, AS EXPLAINED ABOVE

108:13:57 McCandless: Neil, this is Houston. We're reading you loud and clear. Break, break. Buzz, this is Houston through Tranquility. Over.

APPROX 3.5 SECOND DELAY, AS EXPECTED for EARTH - MOON - EARTH

108:14:06 Aldrin: Roger, Houston. This is Buzz through Tranquility. How do you read? Over.

NO DELAY IN MCCANDLES REPLY, AS EXPLAINED ABOVE

108:14:10 McCandless: We're reading you loud and clear, Buzz. Out. (Pause)

APPROX 6.5 SECOND DELAY, AS EXPECTED for EARTH - MOON - EARTH

108:14:18 Aldrin: And you're getting a signal on the TV? Over.

NO DELAY IN MCCANDLES REPLY, AS EXPLAINED ABOVE

108:14:24 McCandless: (Making a mis-identification) That's affirmative, Neil. The data that we're receiving looks good and we are receiving Sync pulses and a black signal on TV.

[Evan Burton]

Once again, Duane, your "evidence" fails the litmus test. When called to account on specific items used in your claims you wave your hands and claim you don't have time to check the records.

Let me turn this around a little (and apologies for derailing the thread with this): IIRC you deal in antiques? If someone brings you a widget they claim was made in 1776 and is very valuable, do you check or accept their word? Do you check if widgets were made in 1776? Where and by whom they were made? Do you check if the method of manufacture was in use at that time? Do you check what the relative value of those 1776 widgets is today?

If from your experience in these matters you know that widgets weren't made until 1792, and that they were hand-made not cast, would you think the person was justified in dismissing your knowledge? If they claimed you were just trying to rip them off of a valuable item?