Junie needs a new pair of shoes.

[Chuck Robbins]

Didn't Oswald make this statement two times while in custody?

I can understand a Father being concerned about new shoes being provided for a child, however,

I hardly believe that this would have been a priority for Oswald under his circumstances.

This sounds like it could be a coded request for assistance of some sort.

Any thoughts on this?

[Thomas Graves]

Didn't Oswald make this statement two times while in custody? ("Junie needs a new pair of shoes.")

_______________________________________

Interesting question, Chuck. I don't know if he said this twice, once, or...

--Thomas

_______________________________________

[John Dolva]

I understand these were the last words to, first Marina, "Be sure to buy shoes for June", and then later to his brother Robert. "Junie needs a new pair of shoes."

Apparently he was quite devoted to Junie and it may be a simple request arising from that care. Junie was already a child who could run, so worn shoes for a growing child is not a little matter.

In the context though, as last words to two people, one can read other things into it. There is another time when shoes was a matter for discussion, in this case the 'faux leather' black sealed canves shoes from Russia, a discussion at one of the Oswald gatherings (DeM?). \\PURE speculation: by checking whether Junies shoes were in need of replacing perhaps one could find an insert in the shoe cut to make the shoe better fitting, or to cover worn areas. Winter was approaching too, so an inset for warmth is not unusual. Perhaps in checking if Lee was correct about this shoe need should one have removed this insert one would find something of interest, perhaps a message, in this case to Marina. In this context it would indicate some prescience. Marina did say in her first comments that she did not believe Lee was guilty, but rather that he was a good man. Obviously there are indications to the contrary, but knowing Lee perhaps she did find something in Junies shoes? Today? Who can say?

Edited April 1, 2007 by John Dolva

[Myra Bronstein]

Didn't Oswald make this statement two times while in custody?

I can understand a Father being concerned about new shoes being provided for a child, however,

I hardly believe that this would have been a priority for Oswald under his circumstances.

This sounds like it could be a coded request for assistance of some sort.

Any thoughts on this?

OHMYGOD.

I'm reading "Executive Action" by Mark Lane (et al) now.

It's a "fictionalized" account of President Kennedy's murder (in the same way that the WCR is a "factual" account."

It has frequent footnotes to define the jargon.

At one point a high level CIA agent (Preston) says to an asset he's trying to persuade to sign on as an assassin:

Preston>"I've never seen a better cover plan. You will be personally escorted from the scene ty the S.S."

...

Asset>"The S.S.?"

Preston>Our straight penetration agents. And you'll have S.S. shoes" too."

Footnotes:

S.S.--The Secret Service

Penetration agents--Agents who infiltrate another organization for life

Shoes--False documents

Ahem...

Pg 48 of hardcover version, eighth printing May 1975

GOOD eye Chuck.

---

Oswald's last words by Mae here, for context:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

"...

1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald

(To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing."

(To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June."

2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley

"I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair."

3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit

"I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."

(Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

..."

Edited April 1, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Ron Ecker]

This thread immediately reminded me of a hit song from that era, "Betty Lou's Got a New Pair of Shoes." It was recorded by Bobby Freeman in 1958.

I'm sure there's no connection, but I'll be singing that song all day now.

[Steve Thomas]

Chuck,

I can understand a Father being concerned about new shoes being provided for a child, however,

I hardly believe that this would have been a priority for Oswald under his circumstances.

I always thought that Oswald's concern for his daughter's shoes, and the $170.00 he left on the dresser to pay for them mitigated in Oswald's favor.

Steve Thomas

[Bob Goodman]

Perhaps Oswald was trying to explain his actions? "Junie need a new pair of shoes" could mean, Hey, I needed the money.

[Mark Knight]

Could it be that "shoe" translates to "Zapata," and the inference is that Marina is being advised that "Poppy" will take care of everything...???

[Chuck Robbins]

Didn't Oswald make this statement two times while in custody?

I can understand a Father being concerned about new shoes being provided for a child, however,

I hardly believe that this would have been a priority for Oswald under his circumstances.

This sounds like it could be a coded request for assistance of some sort.

Any thoughts on this?

OHMYGOD.

I'm reading "Executive Action" by Mark Lane (et al) now.

It's a "fictionalized" account of President Kennedy's murder (in the same way that the WCR is a "factual" account."

It has frequent footnotes to define the jargon.

At one point a high level CIA agent (Preston) says to an asset he's trying to persuade to sign on as an assassin:

Preston>"I've never seen a better cover plan. You will be personally escorted from the scene ty the S.S."

...

Asset>"The S.S.?"

Preston>Our straight penetration agents. And you'll have S.S. shoes" too."

Footnotes:

S.S.--The Secret Service

Penetration agents--Agents who infiltrate another organization for life

Shoes--False documents

Ahem...

Pg 48 of hardcover version, eighth printing May 1975

GOOD eye Chuck.

---

Oswald's last words by Mae here, for context:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

"...

1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald

(To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing."

(To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June."

2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley

"I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair."

3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit

"I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."

(Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

..."

If "visa or ID" was the context of the statement...that would imply that Robert and Marina were aware of the intelligence work being performed by "Harvey".

More and more I get the feeling that Marina and Robert, for whatever reason, and there are many possible reasons why they could or would not, have not yet told all that they know regarding Harvey and what part, if any, they had played in supporting him in his various activities.

After reassuring Marina that she was free to speak, even though they were being monitored, the word of caution to Robert about the tapped phone is especially interesting.

What information were they worried about revealing to the Dallas authorities?

Is it possible that, knowing of the tap, Oswald was sending a message through the tap in hopes of getting help?

Edited April 8, 2007 by Chuck Robbins

[Myra Bronstein]

Didn't Oswald make this statement two times while in custody?

I can understand a Father being concerned about new shoes being provided for a child, however,

I hardly believe that this would have been a priority for Oswald under his circumstances.

This sounds like it could be a coded request for assistance of some sort.

Any thoughts on this?

OHMYGOD.

I'm reading "Executive Action" by Mark Lane (et al) now.

It's a "fictionalized" account of President Kennedy's murder (in the same way that the WCR is a "factual" account."

It has frequent footnotes to define the jargon.

At one point a high level CIA agent (Preston) says to an asset he's trying to persuade to sign on as an assassin:

Preston>"I've never seen a better cover plan. You will be personally escorted from the scene ty the S.S."

...

Asset>"The S.S.?"

Preston>Our straight penetration agents. And you'll have S.S. shoes" too."

Footnotes:

S.S.--The Secret Service

Penetration agents--Agents who infiltrate another organization for life

Shoes--False documents

Ahem...

Pg 48 of hardcover version, eighth printing May 1975

GOOD eye Chuck.

---

Oswald's last words by Mae here, for context:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

"...

1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald

(To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing."

(To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June."

2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley

"I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair."

3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit

"I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."

(Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

..."

If "visa or ID" was the context of the statement...that would imply that Robert and Marina were aware of the intelligence work being performed by "Harvey".

...

Not necessarily. Lee could have been hoping that his wife or brother would repeat his comments to... "friends"--like the Paines or George de Mohrenschildt, who would understand the "shoe" reference.

When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are.[/b] . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."

If Lee had just made one "shoe" comment, esp to his wife, I'd be inclined to dismiss it as an attempt to act normal to calm her down and discuss mundane things couples discuss while showing concern for his child.

But the fact that he mentioned "shoes" twice within his short incarceration, once to his brother in the context of the Paines, makes me really think it's possible that "shoes" documents and cover. Lee was under unbelievable stress so maybe his comments were a bit odd... but he said the shoe thing twice to immediate family members.

[Myra Bronstein]

Didn't Oswald make this statement two times while in custody?

I can understand a Father being concerned about new shoes being provided for a child, however,

I hardly believe that this would have been a priority for Oswald under his circumstances.

This sounds like it could be a coded request for assistance of some sort.

Any thoughts on this?

OHMYGOD.

I'm reading "Executive Action" by Mark Lane (et al) now.

It's a "fictionalized" account of President Kennedy's murder (in the same way that the WCR is a "factual" account."

It has frequent footnotes to define the jargon.

At one point a high level CIA agent (Preston) says to an asset he's trying to persuade to sign on as an assassin:

Preston>"I've never seen a better cover plan. You will be personally escorted from the scene ty the S.S."

...

Asset>"The S.S.?"

Preston>Our straight penetration agents. And you'll have S.S. shoes" too."

Footnotes:

S.S.--The Secret Service

Penetration agents--Agents who infiltrate another organization for life

Shoes--False documents

Ahem...

Pg 48 of hardcover version, eighth printing May 1975

GOOD eye Chuck.

---

Oswald's last words by Mae here, for context:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

"...

1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald

(To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing."

(To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June."

2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley

"I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair."

3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit

"I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes."

(Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.")

..."

...

More and more I get the feeling that Marina and Robert, for whatever reason, and there are many possible reasons why they could or would not, have not yet told all that they know regarding Harvey and what part, if any, they had played in supporting him in his various activities.

After reassuring Marina that she was free to speak, even though they were being monitored, the word of caution to Robert about the tapped phone is especially interesting.

What information were they worried about revealing to the Dallas authorities?

Is it possible that, knowing of the tap, Oswald was sending a message through the tap in hopes of getting help?

Hm, interesting question. Of course that still leaves the original question about the meaning of the shoe comments. But it makes it seem even more possible that, if he was trying to communicate over a tap, he could have been talking about "shoes" = documents/cover. He couldn't be real precise in his situation. He may have been getting as close as he dared to get to his real meaning.

[Mark Knight]

Not sure if it's common worldwide or just a US kind of thing, but the stereotypical gambler, when he's about to roll the dice, says, "Baby needs a new pair of shoes"...so maybe LHO was telling Robert that he was just going to "roll the dice" in his situation and see what happened.

Nothing conspiratorial there, of course...just another explanation for the phrase he used, and one that may be far off the mark. While sometimes it's helpful to scrutinize every word or phrase for clues, sometimes the words and phrases used are simply words and phrases, with no connotations other than what's visible on the surface.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Mark Knight

[John Dolva]

Interesting, Mark, as one meaning of 'Patsy' is 'a cheated one'. In other words perhaps another way (in this context) of saying 'the dice are loaded'.

however as you say: "While sometimes it's helpful to scrutinize every word or phrase for clues, somethime the words and phrases used are simply words and phrases, with no connotations other than what's visible on the surface."

Edited April 9, 2007 by John Dolva

[Lee Forman]

Or...it could mean that Oswald recognized that his daughter needed shoes.

Marguerite told us that they had offered Marina a private room where she could nurse Rachel and take care of June. When they finally got to see Lee, several hours later, they spoke to via telephone from a glass enclosed booth where they could see but not touch anybody. The actual meeting lasted about six or seven minutes. Marguerite saw that Lee was quite bruised around his face and had a black eye. Lee told her it happened during a scuffle. He told Marguerite not to worry, that he was fine and had arranged for an attorney. Marina stayed on a little longer and when she left she was crying. Marguerite told us that Marina said, "I tell Lee I love Lee and Lee says he loves me very much, and to be sure to buy new shoes for June now that she is walking."

....."Now here's a man," Marguerite said, "who is accused of the murder of the President of the United States and, twenty four hours later he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes and Marina couldn't even reach out and touch his hand."

[Pat Speer]

Or...it could mean that Oswald recognized that his daughter needed shoes.

Marguerite told us that they had offered Marina a private room where she could nurse Rachel and take care of June. When they finally got to see Lee, several hours later, they spoke to via telephone from a glass enclosed booth where they could see but not touch anybody. The actual meeting lasted about six or seven minutes. Marguerite saw that Lee was quite bruised around his face and had a black eye. Lee told her it happened during a scuffle. He told Marguerite not to worry, that he was fine and had arranged for an attorney. Marina stayed on a little longer and when she left she was crying. Marguerite told us that Marina said, "I tell Lee I love Lee and Lee says he loves me very much, and to be sure to buy new shoes for June now that she is walking."

....."Now here's a man," Marguerite said, "who is accused of the murder of the President of the United States and, twenty four hours later he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes and Marina couldn't even reach out and touch his hand."

I suspect you're right. Oswald was buying time, waiting for the right lawyer (or some government guardian angel) to appear. He knew he was in deep doo-doo, and was trying to calm his family by focusing on the needs of others.

While Robert took Lee's "There's nothing there" comment to mean that Lee was beyond help, it also can be read as Lee's warning his brother away. "Don't bother trying to figure out what's going on here, brother, cause it will only get you into trouble." It's possible Lee was trying to protect his family. It's possible he succeeded. After all, none of them ended up on the "mysterious deaths" list.