Bobby, Marilyn and Jack

[Charles Black]

Since I cannot personally prove that these oft talked about relationships in fact occurred, I am one of those who believe that in most cases, where there is smoke, there is, or at least was, a fire.

I am not introducing this to re-discuss exclusively Marilyn's death. I have a problem, and a very serious one I feel. I am not concerned with or wish to pass judgement on the "sexual" behavior of these three persons.

My question involves the possible extremely reckless and dangerous (concerning matters of National Security) possible "mental" behavior of the President and Attorney General of the United States.

There has been so much written regarding Marilyn's "secret diary", and taped bedroom conversations of these three, along with many other "allegations" regarding these alledged relationships that a question arises that I feel that any teenager would ask.

The World knew of these alledged relationships, and Marilyn's mere exposure of this would hardly be earth shattering. This exposure would in no way be a motive for which to risk detection of murder.

My question relates to the mental state of a U.S. President and Attorney General to have confided "anything" of a confidential nature to this mentally unstable woman. Her mental instability and drug usage was certainly known to nearly the entire world. They could not have needed to further IMPRESS this lady. They certainly were not stupid enough, to under normal conditions, have discussed publicly, in bed or at parties, issues of National Security.

Considering my immediately prior statement, were they suffering from something that may have altered their minds.....this not the rational behavior of a President and Attorney General, or for that matter, anyone entrusted with National Security issues.

Or is there something factual in reports of White House drug usage ? Or was Marilyn simply making up that she was going to expose "secrets" and had in fact a "secret diary" or possibly tape recordings.

Perhaps this drug addict did die from an accidental overdose.....but there appear to be some weird happenings at around the "time of her death".

This matter could definitely relate to some opinions of important persons, regarding JFK & Bobby's "potential recklessness", which could be endangering the security of the nation.

I expect that I will again be assailed as a Kennedy Basher by some. But all that I want is truth that sounds reasonable and logical to me.

Again ! My purpose is neither to praise or belittle the Kennedy's. But I assert that it is extremely naive to believe Jack and Robert not participating in some very reckless behavior on a number of proven occasions.

Since most of us have all read the same materials, I suppose that "opinion" is the most that anyone could render.

There are many things that smell very bad in this "Marilyn Thing".

Charlie Black

[Kathleen Collins]

There has been so much written regarding Marilyn's "secret diary", and taped bedroom conversations of these three, along with many other "allegations" regarding these alledged relationships that a question arises that I feel that any teenager would ask.

The World knew of these alledged relationships, and Marilyn's mere exposure of this would hardly be earth shattering. This exposure would in no way be a motive for which to risk detection of murder.

I am convinced that President Kennedy had an affair with Marilyn. Written logs at the White House re visitors and incoming phone calls lead me in that direction. I think you can find this in The Goddess by Anthony Summers, an extremely depressing book. I never looked at it again because of the photo of her after her autopsy. Her death has overshadowed her extraordinary life, which is a shame.

I believe Bobby Kennedy visited her on her last day of life. Eunice Murray, the so-called housekeeper, stated to the BBC in Say Goodbye to the President, that "He was there that afternoon." Neigbors -- the Pollards -- were having a game of Bridge when he turned up without any disguise, according to them, in a convertible. Everyone had gotten up to look out the window. One of them had announced, "Here he is again." I believe you can find this in Norman Mailer's Marilyn.

Charles, when you say the World knew of these relationships, I have to tell you you're wrong. My family voted for President Kennedy. They didn't know. It wasn't till Mailer's book came out in 1973. But I agree she was a drug addict, a severe depressive, and an alcoholic. But there was little or no treatment then for a woman like that. Gail Storm had 2 TV shows in the Fifties, Oh, Susannah and My Little Margie. When they came to an end, she admitted to the world that she was an alcoholic. This was an extraordinary admission. "This Is Your Life" did a show on her. So she was very brave in telling the world about this. She might have gone to AA, but I bet she was the only woman there in those days. Maybe she went to her church.

About Monroe's diary: Bobby Kennedy could have destroyed it himself. And even if he did, she still had something of a memory, whereby she could spout what she had already written down. According to Slatzer, The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe, her file cabinets were being broken into, and the locksmith submitted a bill for these new locks to her Estate after she died. I think the Kennedys could find a way around Marilyn's problems other than killing her.

Kathy

[Charles Drago]

In a recent Los Angeles Times feature,, "The Marilyn Monroe Story," John W. Miner adds interesting grist to this mill.

At the time of Monroe's passing, Miner was a Deputy District Attorney of L.A. County and headed that office's Medical-Legal Section. In that position he was designated as liaison to the County's Chief Medical Examiner.

Miner was present for the Monroe autopsy. Based upon his observations and those of coroner Thomas T. Noguchi, he reached the following conclusion:

"Marilyn Monroe took or was given chloral hydrate to render her unconscious. Someone dissolved Nembutal in water by breaking open 30 or more capsules. That person then administered the Nembutal-loaded solution by enema to Miss Monroe using an ordinary fountain syringe or enema bag. As the drug was slowly absorbed, the tissues of the large intestine reacted to the trauma of exposure to the poisonous substance by an inflammatory response producing congestion and a marked purple color. That congestion and purple color were in evidence when the body was opened at the autopsy. Never regaining consciousness, Marilyn Monroe died.

"It must be concluded from the medical evidence alone that Marily Monroe was killed by person(s) unknown."

(So we're looking for Public Enema Number One?)

But Miner is not done. In 1962 he also was an Associate Clinical Professor in the Psychiatry Department at USC's Medical School. There he became acquainted with Ralph Greenson, MD -- Monroe's psychiatrist.

Miner now reveals that Greenson allowed him to listen to selected (there's the rub?) tape recordings of the psychiatrist's sessions with Monroe, after first having been informally questioned by Miner on the suicide question.

Of Miner's summary of what he heard, the following are of interest to this site's correspondents:

"For those many writers who maintain that she was going to blow the whistle on J.F. Kennedy (that horse had left the barn) about their sexual relationship, she shoots down such speculation when she expresses utmost admiration for the President and explicitly says she would never embarrass him."

"Her remarks disprove those who claim that she killed herself because Robert Kennedy broke off their relationship because it was she who broke it off."

Additionally, Miner reports hearing Monroe speak with great excitement of pending projects that, until his revelations, were not well known -- if at all. Thus despair at professional decline can be ruled out as a motive for suicide.

Okay ... deep breath.

I am not suggesting that we take Miner at his word, but only that, as an exercise and based on what Miner now writes, we speculate on the identity and motives of the forces who took out Marilyn.

My hypothesis: Extraordinary efforts had been made by Giancana and company to get Marilyn to turn on the Kennedys (the debacle at the Cal-Neva Lodge shortly before her death likely was the scene of a most intense episode thereof), but she steadfastly refused. So the plan was altered.

RFK was informed in a most convincing manner that Monroe was going public with news of her affairs with the Kennedy brothers, and had no choice but to go to her L.A. home and demand that she cease and desist. Her protestations to the contrary on that final afternoon/evening left RFK unconvinced.

But the damage was done; Kennedy was observed by neighbors and others entering and leaving the premises, and his argument with Monroe was captured on tape. What was NOT recorded were threats by Monroe to go public or threats by RFK to harm her.

But hey, close enough for government work. The hit went ahead as planned, but subsequent blackmail attempts were blunted.

Yes, all of this amounts to a radical rethinking of the events surrounding the unsolved murder of Marilyn Monroe. But it certainly conforms to the levels of conspiratorial thinking that we've learned to expect from these SOBs.

Worth pondering, I'd submit.

Charles

[Charles Drago]

ADDENDUM

I neglected to note that Miner stated that he has been released from the pledge of confidentiality he made to Greenson by the psychiatrist's heirs.

And a point of clarification may be in order: I do NOT conclude that Robert Kennedy or any emmisary of his family played any criminal roles in the murder of Marilyn Monroe.

RFK was patsied. And he came to realize it, and took measures -- successful, as it turned out -- to evade the trap's endgame.

The SOBs couldn't close the deal. At least for another six years.

One man's hypothesis.

Charles

[Ron Ecker]

Who quoted Peter Lawford or what was the source of his alleged statement in the hours after her death that Marilyn had "taken her last enema"? I don't recall where I read it but certainly remember reading it.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

In a recent Los Angeles Times feature,, "The Marilyn Monroe Story," John W. Miner adds interesting grist to this mill.

Charles

A word of caution on Mr. Miner, from a recent thread on Monroe:

Miner (not minor) details here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/co...lines-columnone

Thank you for the link to Miner's article. Miner's account reveals an anomaly involving his official role in the investigation immediately following the death of Marilyn Monroe.

Miner now says "It must be concluded from the medical evidence alone that Marilyn Monroe was killed by person(s) unknown". Miner does not say that he had reached that conclusion simultaneous with the autopsy, But we can surely assume that he had considered homicide to be at least a possibility when he was asked to inquire about what light Dr. Greenson could shed on the drug overdose that killed his patient.

Miner's meeting with Greenson came about because Miner was fulfilling his official duty to investigate a possible homicide. Given that the fatal drug was known to be nembutal, it would have been logical to consider Greenson, the physician closest to Marilyn in her final hours, as a possible suspect.

But Dr. Greenson was an old pal of Mr. Miner and Mr. Miner entered a secret agreement that he would conceal his knowledge of tape recordings that provided a priceless insight into the state of Marilyn's mind near the end of her life. If the tapes provided such powerful evidence that Marilyn was not a suicide, as Miner now says, then only accidental self-overdose remained, short of homicide. On the available evidence there was no way yet to distinguish between negligent and intentional homicide. Either way, Dr. Greenson was elevated to the status of most crucial witness in a case in which it was logical to consider him a suspect.

Greenson was a Freudian psychiatrist, who sometimes strayed from Freudian orthodoxy. He was considered brilliant in his day, according to Miner.

Hollywood fashions have changed, and a movie star today who consulted a Freudian analyst would be laughed out of town. Experimental psychology has made huge advances in the past five decades and has exposed much of Freudian therapy as having no scientific basis.

But only Greenson's conclusionary opinions as a Freudian analyst -- not the vital evidence he had in his possession and in his memory -- made it into the official record in the case, it seems. His professional opinions carried little weight even then, but the tape recording, had it been known, might have prevented a verdict of "probable suicide" from being rendered.

NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS (Jesus of Nazareth)

Miner does not say who gave him the authority to suppress evidence (evidence that could have been subpoenad by Miner) directly relevant to the drug overdose that took Marilyn's life. It is very nice that Miner agreed to protect his old buddy Greenson, loyalty is a virtue we can all admire, but it has its limits. Miner also owed a prior and higher duty to the people of California and Los Angeles to bring to light any evidence bearing on Monroe's overdose. Somehow he decided, during his meetig with Dr. Greenson, to take his loyalty to The People, those who paid his salary, on a 30-year Sabattical.

Is anybody at the LA Times making an issue of this?

[Charles Drago]

Caution indeed is called for when attempting to evaluate Miner's major "revelations," and I thank you for the previous reference to his story.

When the notion of a Truth and Amnesty Commission was first raised in the context of JFK's assassination (by George Michael Evica and yours truly at a Lancer conference), we had in mind (among many categories of individuals) people like Miner who, innocent of complicity in the murder, nonetheless very well may have broken the letter and/or spirit of the law by concealing evidence.

Miner is a minor ... player, that is. A thousand pardons I'd gladly offer to him and his ilk in return for full access to what they know and hold.

Charles

[Kathleen Collins]

Who quoted Peter Lawford or what was the source of his alleged statement in the hours after her death that Marilyn had "taken her last enema"? I don't recall where I read it but certainly remember reading it.

Ron, I have seen that quote somewhere too. It might have been Peter Lawford's last wife, as he is the one who said that. You might find it in a book, Peter Lawford: the Man Who Kept the Secrets. But I definitely read that quote attributed to Lawford. Supposedly, Monroe took enemas so her belly would look flatter and as a weight loss method. I don't think it helped either way. This is weird but I think she was chronically constipated and that was the real reason.

Kathy

[Ron Ecker]

If Lawford actually said it, I would wager that he was referring to the method of killing her (the question being how did he know) and not just to a habitual activity of hers.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Supposedly, Monroe took enemas so her belly would look flatter and as a weight loss method. I don't think it helped either way. This is weird but I think she was chronically constipated and that was the real reason.

Kathy

The theory that MM's overdose was administered via enema is not in the Coroner's findings (someone please correct me if that is

wrong). This theory was dreamed up later, I believe, an inference drawn from the condition of Monroe's colon.

According to an author named Wolfe, Monroe was diagnosed with ulcerated colon in 1961, hence the condition of her colon at the time of death. I am not aware that anyone has refuted Wolfe on this issue.

[Kathleen Collins]

Supposedly, Monroe took enemas so her belly would look flatter and as a weight loss method. I don't think it helped either way. This is weird but I think she was chronically constipated and that was the real reason.

Kathy

The theory that MM's overdose was administered via enema is not in the Coroner's findings (someone please correct me if that is

wrong). This theory was dreamed up later, I believe, an inference drawn from the condition of Monroe's colon.

According to an author named Wolfe, Monroe was diagnosed with ulcerated colon in 1961, hence the condition of her colon at the time of death. I am not aware that anyone has refuted Wolfe on this issue.

I never knew of that diagnosis. I know she had trouble getting to her set on time, and said she was sick to her stomach. She was a very nervous woman and would drink black coffee on the set all day (Marilyn by Norman Mailer), not knowing how it affected her.

But I believe she was given an enema, and this wasn't examined. It's possible we don't have the real autopsy. Some author suggested that she had bruises on her body, not mentioned in the autopsy. What was Eunice Murray washing in the washing machine at 4:30 am? Soiled bed clothes? This activity was not mentioned in the police report.

Kathy

[Terry Mauro]

Since I cannot personally prove that these oft talked about relationships in fact occurred, I am one of those who believe that in most cases, where there is smoke, there is, or at least was, a fire.

I am not introducing this to re-discuss exclusively Marilyn's death. I have a problem, and a very serious one I feel. I am not concerned with or wish to pass judgement on the "sexual" behavior of these three persons.

My question involves the possible extremely reckless and dangerous (concerning matters of National Security) possible "mental" behavior of the President and Attorney General of the United States.

There has been so much written regarding Marilyn's "secret diary", and taped bedroom conversations of these three, along with many other "allegations" regarding these alledged relationships that a question arises that I feel that any teenager would ask.

The World knew of these alledged relationships, and Marilyn's mere exposure of this would hardly be earth shattering. This exposure would in no way be a motive for which to risk detection of murder.

My question relates to the mental state of a U.S. President and Attorney General to have confided "anything" of a confidential nature to this mentally unstable woman. Her mental instability and drug usage was certainly known to nearly the entire world. They could not have needed to further IMPRESS this lady. They certainly were not stupid enough, to under normal conditions, have discussed publicly, in bed or at parties, issues of National Security.

Considering my immediately prior statement, were they suffering from something that may have altered their minds.....this not the rational behavior of a President and Attorney General, or for that matter, anyone entrusted with National Security issues.

Or is there something factual in reports of White House drug usage ? Or was Marilyn simply making up that she was going to expose "secrets" and had in fact a "secret diary" or possibly tape recordings.

Perhaps this drug addict did die from an accidental overdose.....but there appear to be some weird happenings at around the "time of her death".

This matter could definitely relate to some opinions of important persons, regarding JFK & Bobby's "potential recklessness", which could be endangering the security of the nation.

I expect that I will again be assailed as a Kennedy Basher by some. But all that I want is truth that sounds reasonable and logical to me.

Again ! My purpose is neither to praise or belittle the Kennedy's. But I assert that it is extremely naive to believe Jack and Robert not participating in some very reckless behavior on a number of proven occasions.

Since most of us have all read the same materials, I suppose that "opinion" is the most that anyone could render.

There are many things that smell very bad in this "Marilyn Thing".

Charlie Black

*************************************************************

"My question involves the possible extremely reckless and dangerous (concerning matters of National Security) possible "mental" behavior of the President and Attorney General of the United States."

And, my question is, why are you insisting on whipping a dead horse? Wasn't this already discussed quite thoroughly in Doug Caddy's thread, which goes on 4 or more pages, AD NAUSEUM?

I'm surprised to see 207 hits on this already, and for what? Someone's overactive prurient interests? Or, someone desperately scraping the bottom of the barrel in an effort to bash the Kennedy brothers, one more time. And, you're all falling for it like a bunch of lemmings. This place is starting to resemble something closer to a "chat room," or a super market tabloid like The Inquirer, than it does a research or an education forum. Maybe this is somebody's idea of group therapy?

Listen, it's all been documented below. What's not to understand? Jeez...

___________________________________________

Doug Caddy posted:

FBI file links Kennedy to Monroe's death

March 17, 2007

Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/kennedy-l...722744304.html#

For four decades there have been rumours that Marilyn Monroe's death was not a simple suicide. Now a Los Angeles-based Australian writer and director, Philippe Mora, has uncovered an FBI document that throws up a chilling new scenario.

The screen legend Marilyn Monroe...the FBI report says she "expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt", but it suggests she was left to die.

Latest related coverage

How Bobby betrayed Marilyn

Web links

Documents: Read the FBI papers

BOBBY KENNEDY'S affair with the screen idol Marilyn Monroe has been documented, but a secret FBI file suggests the late US attorney-general was aware of - and perhaps even a participant in - a plan "to induce" her suicide.

The detailed three-page report implicates the Hollywood actor Peter Lawford, Monroe's psychiatrist, staff and her publicist in the plot.

The allegations suggest the 36-year-old actress, who had a history of staging attention-seeking suicide attempts, was deliberately given the means to fake another suicide on August 4, 1962. But this time, it is suggested, she was allowed to die as she sought help.

The document, hidden among thousands of pages released under freedom-of-information laws last October, was received by the FBI on October 19, 1964 - two years after her death - and titled simply "ROBERT F KENNEDY".

It was compiled by an unnamed former special agent working for the then Democrat governor of California, Pat Brown, and forwarded to Washington by Curtis Lynum, then head of the San Francisco FBI. Despite a disclaimer that it could not be sourced or authenticated, it was considered important enough to immediately circulate to the FBI's five most senior officers, including director J. Edgar Hoover's right-hand man, Clyde Tolson.

The report was in effect buried for decades as a classified document, and even the released version contains censored sections. Never before mentioned despite thousands of articles, books and documentaries about her death, it details aspects of Kennedy's on-and-off affair with the movie star, including sex parties and a lesbian dalliance, as well as her emotional departure from 20th Century Fox and descent into depression.

Critically, it raises an alleged conspiracy, apparently overseen by Lawford, for Monroe to unwittingly commit suicide with the drug Seconal, a barbiturate used to treat insomnia and relieve anxiety. The document gives no precise reason why she would be killed but hints it may be linked to her threats to make public her affair with Kennedy, as other conspiracy theories have previously claimed. It states in part: "Peter Lawford, [censored words blacked out] knew from Marilyn's friends that she often made suicide attempts and that she was inclined to fake a suicide attempt in order to arouse sympathy.

"Lawford is reported as having made 'special arrangements' with Marilyn's psychiatrist, Dr Ralph Greenson, from Beverley Hills. The psychiatrist was treating Marilyn for emotional problems and getting her off the use of barbiturates. On her last visit to him he prescribed Seconal tablets and gave her a prescription for 60 of them, which was unusual in quantity especially since he saw her frequently. On the date of her death … her housekeeper put the bottle of pills on the night table. It is reported that the housekeeper and Marilyn's personal secretary and press agent, Pat Newcomb, were co-operating in the plan to induce suicide."

It goes on to say that on the same day, Kennedy had booked out of the Beverley Hills Hotel and flown to San Francisco where he booked into the St Charles Hotel, owned by a friend. "Robert Kennedy made a telephone call from St Charles Hotel, San Francisco, to Peter Lawford to find out if Marilyn was dead yet."

Lawford called and spoke to Monroe "then checked again later to make sure she did not answer". The document claims the housekeeper, Eunice Murray, who had been hired by the actress on the advice of Dr Greenson, then called the psychiatrist.

"Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt. The psychiatrist left word for Marilyn to take a drive in the fresh air but did not come to see her until after she was known to be dead."

Officially, the actress was found by Murray in the early hours of August 5, naked on her bed lying on top of her telephone. The others are now dead, too.

The FBI report says Kennedy had promised Monroe he would divorce his wife and marry her, but the actress eventually realised he had no intention of doing so.

About this time, he had told her not to worry about 20th Century Fox cancelling her contract - "he would take care of everything". When nothing happened, she called him at work and they had "unpleasant words. She was reported to have threatened to make public their affair."

Hoover, keeper of America's secrets, was obsessed with the private life of celebrities, particularly those with leftist leanings. The files show the FBI tracked Monroe from the Cold War mid-1950s to her death in 1962, but particularly after she met and married the playwright Arthur Miller, who was being watched as a possible communist.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/kennedy-l...722744304.html#

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post Mar 17 2007, 03:39 AM

Post #2

Advanced Member

***

QUOTE(Douglas Caddy @ Mar 17 2007, 04:12 AM) *

FBI file links Kennedy to Monroe's death

March 17, 2007

Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/kennedy-l...722744304.html#

For four decades there have been rumours that Marilyn Monroe's death was not a simple suicide. Now a Los Angeles-based Australian writer and director, Philippe Mora, has uncovered an FBI document that throws up a chilling new scenario.

The screen legend Marilyn Monroe...the FBI report says she "expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt", but it suggests she was left to die.

Latest related coverage

How Bobby betrayed Marilyn

Web links

Documents: Read the FBI papers

BOBBY KENNEDY'S affair with the screen idol Marilyn Monroe has been documented, but a secret FBI file suggests the late US attorney-general was aware of - and perhaps even a participant in - a plan "to induce" her suicide.

The detailed three-page report implicates the Hollywood actor Peter Lawford, Monroe's psychiatrist, staff and her publicist in the plot.

The allegations suggest the 36-year-old actress, who had a history of staging attention-seeking suicide attempts, was deliberately given the means to fake another suicide on August 4, 1962. But this time, it is suggested, she was allowed to die as she sought help.

The document, hidden among thousands of pages released under freedom-of-information laws last October, was received by the FBI on October 19, 1964 - two years after her death - and titled simply "ROBERT F KENNEDY".

It was compiled by an unnamed former special agent working for the then Democrat governor of California, Pat Brown, and forwarded to Washington by Curtis Lynum, then head of the San Francisco FBI. Despite a disclaimer that it could not be sourced or authenticated, it was considered important enough to immediately circulate to the FBI's five most senior officers, including director J. Edgar Hoover's right-hand man, Clyde Tolson.

The report was in effect buried for decades as a classified document, and even the released version contains censored sections. Never before mentioned despite thousands of articles, books and documentaries about her death, it details aspects of Kennedy's on-and-off affair with the movie star, including sex parties and a lesbian dalliance, as well as her emotional departure from 20th Century Fox and descent into depression.

Critically, it raises an alleged conspiracy, apparently overseen by Lawford, for Monroe to unwittingly commit suicide with the drug Seconal, a barbiturate used to treat insomnia and relieve anxiety. The document gives no precise reason why she would be killed but hints it may be linked to her threats to make public her affair with Kennedy, as other conspiracy theories have previously claimed. It states in part: "Peter Lawford, [censored words blacked out] knew from Marilyn's friends that she often made suicide attempts and that she was inclined to fake a suicide attempt in order to arouse sympathy.

"Lawford is reported as having made 'special arrangements' with Marilyn's psychiatrist, Dr Ralph Greenson, from Beverley Hills. The psychiatrist was treating Marilyn for emotional problems and getting her off the use of barbiturates. On her last visit to him he prescribed Seconal tablets and gave her a prescription for 60 of them, which was unusual in quantity especially since he saw her frequently. On the date of her death … her housekeeper put the bottle of pills on the night table. It is reported that the housekeeper and Marilyn's personal secretary and press agent, Pat Newcomb, were co-operating in the plan to induce suicide."

It goes on to say that on the same day, Kennedy had booked out of the Beverley Hills Hotel and flown to San Francisco where he booked into the St Charles Hotel, owned by a friend. "Robert Kennedy made a telephone call from St Charles Hotel, San Francisco, to Peter Lawford to find out if Marilyn was dead yet."

Lawford called and spoke to Monroe "then checked again later to make sure she did not answer". The document claims the housekeeper, Eunice Murray, who had been hired by the actress on the advice of Dr Greenson, then called the psychiatrist.

"Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt. The psychiatrist left word for Marilyn to take a drive in the fresh air but did not come to see her until after she was known to be dead."

Officially, the actress was found by Murray in the early hours of August 5, naked on her bed lying on top of her telephone. The others are now dead, too.

The FBI report says Kennedy had promised Monroe he would divorce his wife and marry her, but the actress eventually realised he had no intention of doing so.

About this time, he had told her not to worry about 20th Century Fox cancelling her contract - "he would take care of everything". When nothing happened, she called him at work and they had "unpleasant words. She was reported to have threatened to make public their affair."

Hoover, keeper of America's secrets, was obsessed with the private life of celebrities, particularly those with leftist leanings. The files show the FBI tracked Monroe from the Cold War mid-1950s to her death in 1962, but particularly after she met and married the playwright Arthur Miller, who was being watched as a possible communist.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/kennedy-l...722744304.html#

WHAT IS THIS, A SAINT PADDY'S DAY JOKE?

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK. THIS IS NEWS IN SYDNEY? ONE FBI DOC THAT REAKS OF TOTAL BS - AN FBI DOC FROM AN AGENCY THAT NO LONGER AND PROBABLY NEVER SHOULD HAVE ANY REASONABLE PERSON'S RESPECT OR ATTENTION - AFTER ALL WE'VE LEARNED ABOUT THE FBI - HOW THEY FOLLOWED OSWALD AROUND BUT MISSED EVERYTHING, HOW THEY HELPED FRAME HIM AFTERWARDS, FUDGED MEXICO CITY, AN AGENCY RUN BY A CROSS DRESSING FAGOT, THAT CONTINUED TO FUDGE EVERY MAJOR INVESTIGATION OF NATIONAL SECURITY SIGNIFICANCE, AND CONTINUES TO BE MISUSED BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR THE ADMINISTRATION'S POLITICAL ENDS - THE COUNTERINTELLIGENCE AGENCY THAT FAILED US IN 1963, 2001 AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.

WHY ANYONE WOULD CONSIDER ANY FBI DOCUMENT ANYTHING MORE THAN KINDLING, ESPECIALLY ONE ABOUT MONROE AND ANY KENNEDY, MEANS YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION.

IF THIS IS NEWS IN SYDNEY, THEN THEY HAVEN'T SEEN THE SPIRGILIO DOC YET.

BK

Post Mar 17 2007, 05:26 AM

Post #3

Hi Bill:

My,My how the story has already grown.....

NOTE: ""The report, titled simply Robert F Kennedy, is not sourced or authenticated but it was circulated to the FBI's five most senior officers, Mora said.""

That means it could be another phony.....they have arisen in the past....

Killing Kennedys Again Time.?? Repeatedly moreso it seems in the past few years.

This was the earlier report, how some seem to have jumped on the bandwagon...as always. And as usual break their necks to report such without checking

and or having any verification...aw well, the way it has gone on for years...

Kennedy link to Monroe death

March 17, 2007 12:00

Article from: AAP

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AN Australian director has uncovered a document that suggests Robert Kennedy was aware of a plot to "induce" the suicide of Marilyn Monroe.

Bobby Kennedy was the brother of murdered US president John F Kennedy and served as US Attorney-General from 1961 to 1964 before he was assassinated in 1968.

Philippe Mora, writing for Fairfax newspapers, said Monroe was well known for staging suicide attempts as a form of attention seeking.

But he said he has uncovered a three-page document that revealed on August 4, 1962, she was left to die while attempting another attention seeking moment.

The report, handed to the FBI on October 19, 1964, implicated the actor Peter Lawford, Monroe's psychiatrist, her housekeeper and personal secretary in the 36-year-old actresses death.

It stated Lawford made “special arrangements” with the psychiatrist that saw Monroe given a high quantity of her prescription medication.

“Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt,” the report said.

It said on the same day, Kennedy made a phone call from St Charles Hotel, San Francisco to Lawford “to find out if Marilyn was dead yet”.

Mora, who is based in Los Angeles, has found the document, compiled by an unnamed former special agent, among thousands of pages released under Freedom of Information laws in October.

The report, titled simply Robert F Kennedy, is not sourced or authenticated but it was circulated to the FBI's five most senior officers, Mora said.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/stor...from=public_rss

post Mar 17 2007, 02:24 PM

Post #4

Bill, Bernice, Doug

This bulls### disinfo has been floating around for years. Next there will be Bobby kills MM, the movie. Of course Drudge has it. Sickening.

Dawn

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Post Mar 17 2007, 02:53 PM

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This story makes a lot of sense on every level. MM's friend Peter Lawford, her psychiatrist, and her housekeeper all agree to kill MM. (What a world.) Well, not kill her directly, but the doc prescribes her a bunch of pills, and the housekeeper leaves them on her bed table, and everybody hopes she will take them all. And MM does take them, seeing as how somebody clearly wants her to fake another suicide. She must think that they're waiting and will come into her bedroom in the middle of the night with something to pump out her stomach with. At least she certainly hopes so. Or else she hopes she'll have time to call someone before she passes out. Or something.

Everybody's hopes bear fruit except MM's, who must have put the dumb in the old chauvinistic term "dumb blonde."

If RFK wanted MM dead, I think he had the means to see that it got done in more certain fashion than everyone hoping that MM would idiotically do herself in. (And what was everyone's motive, other than RFK's, to do this? RFK wants her dead, and luckily MM's friend, her doctor, and her employee all agree to help out? For money? I guess you can truly buy anything.)

Almost any of the theories about her death make more sense than this. So maybe it's true.

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post Mar 17 2007, 03:31 PM

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QUOTE(Dawn Meredith @ Mar 17 2007, 02:24 PM) *

Bill, Bernice, Doug

This bulls### disinfo has been floating around for years. Next there will be Bobby kills MM, the movie. Of course Drudge has it. Sickening.

Dawn

This attempt to link the Kennedy brothers with the death of Marilyn Monroe has been going on for sometime. This is a CIA document dated 3rd August, 1962, that appeared on the web a few years ago

Wiretap of telephone conversation between reporter Dorothy Kilgallen and her close friend, Howard Rothberg; from wiretap of telephone conversation of Marilyn Monroe and Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Appraisal of Content: (Blacked Out).

1. Rothberg discussed the apparent comeback of subject with Kilgallen and the break up with the Kennedys. Rothberg told Kilgallen that she was attending Hollywood parties hosted by the "inner circle" among Hollywood's elite and was becoming the talk of the town again. Rothberg indicated in so many words, that she had secrets to tell, no doubt arising from her trists (sic) with the President and the Attorney General. One such (illegible) mentions the visit by the President at a secret air base for the purpose of inspecting things from outer space. Kilgallen replied that she knew what might be the source of the visit. In the mid-fifties Kilgallen learned of secret effort by US and UK governments to identify the origins of crashed spacecraft and dead bodies, from a British government official. Kilgallen believed the story may have come from the (illegible) in the late forties. Kilgallen said that if the story is true, it could cause terrible embarrassment to Jack and his plans to have NASA put men on the moon.

2. Subject repeatedly called the Attorney General and complained about the way she was being ignored by the President and his brother.

3. Subject threatened to hold a press conference and would tell all.

4. Subject made references to "bases" in Cuba and knew of the President's plan to kill Castro.

5. Subject made reference to her "diary of secrets" and what the newspapers would do with such disclosures.

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post Mar 17 2007, 03:39 PM

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QUOTE(John Simkin @ Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Dawn Meredith @ Mar 17 2007, 02:24 PM) *

Bill, Bernice, Doug

This bulls### disinfo has been floating around for years. Next there will be Bobby kills MM, the movie. Of course Drudge has it. Sickening.

Dawn

This attempt to link the Kennedy brothers with the death of Marilyn Monroe has been going on for sometime. This is a CIA document dated 3rd August, 1962, that appeared on the web a few years ago

Wiretap of telephone conversation between reporter Dorothy Kilgallen and her close friend, Howard Rothberg; from wiretap of telephone conversation of Marilyn Monroe and Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Appraisal of Content: (Blacked Out).

1. Rothberg discussed the apparent comeback of subject with Kilgallen and the break up with the Kennedys. Rothberg told Kilgallen that she was attending Hollywood parties hosted by the "inner circle" among Hollywood's elite and was becoming the talk of the town again. Rothberg indicated in so many words, that she had secrets to tell, no doubt arising from her trists (sic) with the President and the Attorney General. One such (illegible) mentions the visit by the President at a secret air base for the purpose of inspecting things from outer space. Kilgallen replied that she knew what might be the source of the visit. In the mid-fifties Kilgallen learned of secret effort by US and UK governments to identify the origins of crashed spacecraft and dead bodies, from a British government official. Kilgallen believed the story may have come from the (illegible) in the late forties. Kilgallen said that if the story is true, it could cause terrible embarrassment to Jack and his plans to have NASA put men on the moon.

2. Subject repeatedly called the Attorney General and complained about the way she was being ignored by the President and his brother.

3. Subject threatened to hold a press conference and would tell all.

4. Subject made references to "bases" in Cuba and knew of the President's plan to kill Castro.

5. Subject made reference to her "diary of secrets" and what the newspapers would do with such disclosures.

John,

This is the so-called Spirgilio Document I was refereing to. It has everything, MM, Dorothy Kilgallon, pillow talk with the Pres, plot to kill Castro and UFOs, all on one page.

Appologies for my rant, but the FBI gets on my nerves sometimes.

BK

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post Mar 17 2007, 04:26 PM

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Bill, I would tend to agree with you. The "murderous" JFK was the same one who fired Dulles, Bissell and Cabell, who were trying to kill Castro.

He sent an envoy to Trujillo to try to talk him into surrendering power. He sent a plane to whisk Diem and his brother Nhu out of So. Vietnam. After his election, he was considering coming to the rescue of Patrice Lumumba.

He did everything he could to prevent the murder of these men.

It is difficult for me to grasp the notion that this same man, JFK, who abhorred the possibilty that he might have to "push the button" and kill 300 million people, had no qualms about murdering in single numbers.

Likewise, the AG, who was after the murderous mob with the full force of the justice department, would himself resort to the same tactics of those who he sought to put behind bars.

It just doesn't make sense.

Compare that to the credibility of the man, J. Edgar Hoover, man whose whole life was a lie, from his secret homosexual life, to his hypocritical stand against gays, to his taking credit for captures of criminals who were actually caught by his subordinates.

This was a man so paranoid, that he spent the resources of the federal government obtaining "dirt" on everyone and had no problem "leaking" that dirt to the press.

There were many "unsubstantiated rumors" that found their way into the FBI's files. This one seems just like another one.

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post Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM

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QUOTE(John Simkin @ Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Dawn Meredith @ Mar 17 2007, 02:24 PM) *

Bill, Bernice, Doug

This bulls### disinfo has been floating around for years. Next there will be Bobby kills MM, the movie. Of course Drudge has it. Sickening.

Dawn

This attempt to link the Kennedy brothers with the death of Marilyn Monroe has been going on for sometime. This is a CIA document dated 3rd August, 1962, that appeared on the web a few years ago

Wiretap of telephone conversation between reporter Dorothy Kilgallen and her close friend, Howard Rothberg; from wiretap of telephone conversation of Marilyn Monroe and Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Appraisal of Content: (Blacked Out).

1. Rothberg discussed the apparent comeback of subject with Kilgallen and the break up with the Kennedys. Rothberg told Kilgallen that she was attending Hollywood parties hosted by the "inner circle" among Hollywood's elite and was becoming the talk of the town again. Rothberg indicated in so many words, that she had secrets to tell, no doubt arising from her trists (sic) with the President and the Attorney General. One such (illegible) mentions the visit by the President at a secret air base for the purpose of inspecting things from outer space. Kilgallen replied that she knew what might be the source of the visit. In the mid-fifties Kilgallen learned of secret effort by US and UK governments to identify the origins of crashed spacecraft and dead bodies, from a British government official. Kilgallen believed the story may have come from the (illegible) in the late forties. Kilgallen said that if the story is true, it could cause terrible embarrassment to Jack and his plans to have NASA put men on the moon.

2. Subject repeatedly called the Attorney General and complained about the way she was being ignored by the President and his brother.

3. Subject threatened to hold a press conference and would tell all.

4. Subject made references to "bases" in Cuba and knew of the President's plan to kill Castro.

5. Subject made reference to her "diary of secrets" and what the newspapers would do with such disclosures.

Most of these stories originated from the efforts of one Frank Capell, the RW's propaganda minister, in an ongoing program to dicredit the K's, He would later resurface after 11/22/63, to do his handy work in that case as well.

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post Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM

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QUOTE(William Kelly @ Mar 17 2007, 04:39 PM) *

QUOTE(John Simkin @ Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Dawn Meredith @ Mar 17 2007, 02:24 PM) *

Bill, Bernice, Doug

This bulls### disinfo has been floating around for years. Next there will be Bobby kills MM, the movie. Of course Drudge has it. Sickening.

Dawn

This attempt to link the Kennedy brothers with the death of Marilyn Monroe has been going on for sometime. This is a CIA document dated 3rd August, 1962, that appeared on the web a few years ago

Wiretap of telephone conversation between reporter Dorothy Kilgallen and her close friend, Howard Rothberg; from wiretap of telephone conversation of Marilyn Monroe and Attorney General Robert Kennedy. Appraisal of Content: (Blacked Out).

1. Rothberg discussed the apparent comeback of subject with Kilgallen and the break up with the Kennedys. Rothberg told Kilgallen that she was attending Hollywood parties hosted by the "inner circle" among Hollywood's elite and was becoming the talk of the town again. Rothberg indicated in so many words, that she had secrets to tell, no doubt arising from her trists (sic) with the President and the Attorney General. One such (illegible) mentions the visit by the President at a secret air base for the purpose of inspecting things from outer space. Kilgallen replied that she knew what might be the source of the visit. In the mid-fifties Kilgallen learned of secret effort by US and UK governments to identify the origins of crashed spacecraft and dead bodies, from a British government official. Kilgallen believed the story may have come from the (illegible) in the late forties. Kilgallen said that if the story is true, it could cause terrible embarrassment to Jack and his plans to have NASA put men on the moon.

2. Subject repeatedly called the Attorney General and complained about the way she was being ignored by the President and his brother.

3. Subject threatened to hold a press conference and would tell all.

4. Subject made references to "bases" in Cuba and knew of the President's plan to kill Castro.

5. Subject made reference to her "diary of secrets" and what the newspapers would do with such disclosures.

John,

This is the so-called Spirgilio Document I was refereing to. It has everything, MM, Dorothy Kilgallon, pillow talk with the Pres, plot to kill Castro and UFOs, all on one page.

Appologies for my rant, but the FBI gets on my nerves sometimes.

BK

I'm interested in how these stories get run.

In the case of the SMH article, the author is Philippe Mora, an Australian emigre of Jewish parentage, who lives in Los Angeles and is best known as a film director.

Mora has, to my knowledge, no track record of previous interest in the Kennedys or Monroe. Where did he get the story from? What motivated him to rehash an old tale that was never based on anything more than extremely flimsy evidence?

It seems to me there's a substantial genre of articles, books and suchlike that denigrate the Kennedy brothers and make them out to be gangsters and sex fiends.

Who is behind this and why?

This post has been edited by Sid Walker: Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM

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post Mar 17 2007, 04:44 PM

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QUOTE(Sid Walker @ Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM) *

It seems to me there's a substantial genre of articles, books and suchlike that denigrate the Kennedy brothers and make them out to be gangsters and sex fiends.

Who is behind this and why?

I assume it is organized by the Republican Party. The Kennedys are closely identified with the Democratic Party. It tends to happen when the Republicans are being investigated for corruption. It amazes me that they don't spread some of the true stories about LBJ.

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post Mar 17 2007, 09:50 PM

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Using a pseudonym (I believe), Frank Capell wrote a pamphlet about Marilyn Monroe being surrounded by commie Jews and having an affair with Bobby Kennedy. This came out in 1964. He also smeared Pat Newcomb, Monroe's publicist and "best friend," by hinting she was a lesbian. But also, Pat Newcomb was in love with Bobby Kennedy. After Monroe's death, Newcomb was brought to Hyannis Port to get over it. There's a photo of her sailing with the Kennedys on a cold day. If I can find the photo, I will post it. Then she went to work in an office down the hall from Bobby's, having to do with government films.

I do believe Monroe and the Kennedy brothers were romantically involved. And that the CIA or FBI murdered her when Bobby left her house that day, hoping he would be framed for MM's death.

The next time an author wrote about MM and the Kennedys was Fred Lawrence Guiles in his tome Norma Jean: the Life of Marilyn Monroe. He has updated it, but I haven't read the update. Bobby was called "The Eastener." The original book was published in 1969.

And then came Norman Mailer's book, Marilyn in 1973. In the last chapter, he muses whether MM was having a dalliance with the Kennedy brothers. But not that they murdered her. I think Mailer loved John F. Kennedy. He added a chapter or two to his book after Robert F. Slatzer published his book, The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe. This is the book that really sealed the deal.

I do feel President Kennedy had an affair with Monroe and the shock of her death must have been incredible. I read, possibly in this book, that Jackie Kennedy came down early that morning to speak to a handful of reporters and said in paraphrase, Monroe would live on in our memories and words to that effect. I have never read that elsewhere.

All my Monroe books are in another state, so I don't have them by my side. Around 1984 or 1985, the ghouls came out. All these authors saying Bobby Kennedy killed her, quoting dead witnesses. Publishing autopsy photos of her. It became repugnant to read these books and I more or less stopped collecting Marilyn Monroe.

I think the authors of the most horrible books are disinformationalists. Especially Slatzer, who has lied about her, especially in his second book, which was more embellished and makes him a closer friend to her. He croaked 2 years ago. Former actress Jeanne Carmen is keeping the story going. She's in her '70's, but she still looks like a hustler to me.

Kathy

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post Mar 18 2007, 07:08 AM

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I believe David Talbot's Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years will have some interesting things to say about the death of Monroe.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brothers-Hidden-Hi...1581&sr=1-3

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post Mar 18 2007, 01:02 PM

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QUOTE(John Simkin @ Mar 17 2007, 05:44 PM) *

QUOTE(Sid Walker @ Mar 17 2007, 04:31 PM) *

It seems to me there's a substantial genre of articles, books and suchlike that denigrate the Kennedy brothers and make them out to be gangsters and sex fiends.

Who is behind this and why?

I assume it is organized by the Republican Party. The Kennedys are closely identified with the Democratic Party. It tends to happen when the Republicans are being investigated for corruption. It amazes me that they don't spread some of the true stories about LBJ.

I don't think this is a party matter. Republican politicians nowadays often quote JFK with approval, but seem to think that the less about Johnson the better. No one wants to be reminded of that ugly character, and there is a sizable segment of the journalistic establishment that wishes Robert Caro would stop working on his Johnson biography.

Jim Di Eugenio has an excellent article on the character assassination of the Kennedy brothers that followed their physical assassination, posted here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry61914

Anthony Summers has been a leader in the movement to assassinate the characters of the Kennedy brothers. Since he is a member of this forum, perhaps Mr. Summers will enlighten us on what motivates him. I doubt if loyalty to the Grand Old Party is a consideration in his case.

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post Mar 18 2007, 01:50 PM

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QUOTE(John Simkin @ Mar 18 2007, 09:08 AM) *

I believe David Talbot's Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years will have some interesting things to say about the death of Monroe.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brothers-Hidden-Hi...1581&sr=1-3

I think the timing of this "news" is to try to discredit Talbot before his book comes out.

And Ray yes Jim Di's article is great.

Dawn

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[Terry Mauro]

Double damned duplicate post, again. Deleted by T. Mauro 4-05-07 @ 20:00 hrs PDT

Edited April 6, 2007 by Terry Mauro

[Charles Black]

Terry

It has become obvious to me, and I feel certain to others, that regardless of what is said about the Kennedy's.....if they are in any way depicted as behaving like many other human beings, and

not on the list of those being considered for sainthood, you are likeley to enter into (a sometimes hysterical) lengthy defense of what you refer to as "Kennedy Bashing"!

I feel that it is quite immature and irrational to

to constantly express the opinion that they were any more faultless than most of the billions who have lived on this earth. You often sound, to me, like a 15 year old President of the "Elvis Fan Club".

I do feel that the mainstay of my thread was and is, What, if any, secret information could have caused the Kennedy's concern.

I am not personally concerned with the alledged amorous adventures of ANY two brothers in the 1960's, or of anyone in Hollywood either then or now.

Rules regarding classified information apply to the President and Attorney General as much as, and probably moreso, than the apply to the rest of the population.

There are so many things that most of us "don't know"....who knows what was actually in her taped secret conversations with the President and Attorney General. It may not have dealt with possibilities of Nuclear War, but more likely topics such as Mafiosi, who were well know, by their association with Marilyn, and possible government thoughts or plans regarding them. This does not reek of Nuclear War, but it is certainly Top Secret Judicial Dept. information, that should not be discussed with any citizen, much less friends or associates of anyone believed to be a member of organized crime.

I think that my concerns are rational and valid. I do not feel that either Kennedy was particularly concerned by anything regarding their alledged sexual connections to an alcoholic and drug addicted actress who had just been "fired from her job" for reasons pertaining to these problems. When, in Hollywood, one is fired for drug or alcohol abuse, it is no doubt a major problem.

Their apparently was much concern on the part of Bobby and JEH regarding something pertaining to Marilyn . This is Fact and this was the true topic of my thread.

Unless I plan at some time to eulogize the Kennedy Family, which is unlikely, I don't intend to reply further to any of your "insider knowledge" of Kennedy behavior.

I feel that your reactions involving this subject are highly irrational and therefore do not encourage the pursuit of truth.....which I feel that we are supposed to be seeking.

Charlie Black

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Charlie

..I fully agree....."who knows what was actually in her taped secret conversations with the President and Attorney GeneraL"........

...for all we do know, they never discussed politics.....nor Mafioso ..ever.....nor any subject related in anyway, if they were in personal contact, that is......other than records the government says exisited of telephone calls, and tapes between MM and the Ks....and what some people said they saw.....what is there......??.supposition...

That is, if they were in actuality ever taped, and if those tapes ever existed, as has been suppositioned..

It has also been said by some that there was a MM Diary a red book.........but it is not known positively nor has it been ever, what was in said book, if it did in fact exist...and was a diary...more supposition..

There is absolutley no proof they did, or ever were......except for what some people have stated.... supposition..

Now what do we have ?

Tapes and a book that may have existed......years of gossip, about what could possibley have been in such .......so in otherwords, we do not know anything in relation to about what we are trying to discuss......??

Except for further suppositioning....?

How can anyone discuss the subject, of possible tapes, a possible diary, possible personal phone calls, or sexual personal contact, of which there is no positive proof nor authenticated documentation given as to what it all may involve, if it ever did........other than what some people have said....?.and or come to any positive conclusion or enlightenment in any way....it would seem to be a perfect endless nonsensical subject...to divert peoples attention....from their studys...

For all we know, these elements may have been completely ficticious, including additional figments of some peoples imaginations or a deliberatley invented part of a plan.....after all concerned were dead.......so as to continually muddy the waters and reputations of those that may have been involved, in the first place......and thereby deliberately further diverting the peoples attention away from the conspiracy...that killed the President.....thereby using a Hollywood type gossip mill, suppositioning to further add to the confusion..

So bottom line what do we have..?...a long thread discussing and in some cases arguing about.......supposition..

So why am I wasting my time on more suppositioning, who the hell knows.....

B........