the 1963 Secret Service

[Michael Hogan]

Nice work Bernice

The more that one looks into this situation, it should be apparent, that as a result of several of what appear to be questionable or incorrect statements by Agent Kellerman, his own LACK of the correct action which should have been taken, and only HIS testimony that he told Greer to "go forward" (which for reasons previously mentioned by myself was unsound), that the "Blame" which is now being directed toward Agent Greer totally lacks any reasonable substantiation.

Yes ! Greer did "look backward" as an automatic reflex, which would no doubt have been duplicated by ANY "human being" driver, in a like situation.

I remain, if possible, even more convinced of my previous statements!

Yes Bernice, nice work as always. Here is what Vince Palamara says about Greer in the article you posted:

He [Greer] was trained just fine; also, he had plenty of experience. Finally, who needs "special training" --- even a snot-nosed 16 year old knows how to HIT THE GAS! Keep in mind that Greer DISOBEYED his superior's order to get out of line BEFORE the head shot arrived.

And:

Also, what about limo driver Greer who, despite a direct order from his superior sitting in the front seat a few feet away, does not speed up the car out of danger-in fact, Greer turned around not once but TWICE and can be seen in the Zapruder film looking directly at JFK when the fatal, final shot makes its mark (Greer denied looking at the President, slowing down, or turning back around [let alone twice] to the gullible Warren Commission under oath).The second turn around happened AFTER Kellerman told Greer to get out of line; as Kellerman told Manchester, "Greer then looked back in the car. Maybe he didn't believe me". Agent Marty Venker confirms what Mary Gallagher alludes to in My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy (not to mention C. David Heymann's book)-Jackie blamed Greer for not speeding up in time to save Jack! Kellerman, for his part, is no angel- why the hell didn't he at least TRY to get into the rear of the limo, something he admitted to the WC that no obstacle-including those in the limo used as excuses- would have made any difference had he felt he was needed back there (I guess he didn't "feel" the "need"...) Kellerman also claimed that JFK spoke ("My God! I am hit!" to the WC, "Get me to a hospital", the original version to the FBI), something no one else-including medical science- admitted taking place (JFK was shot thru the neck)! Finally, Kellerman claimed to have seen JFK reaching for a part of his back near the right shoulder, an action not recorded on any film, photo, or eyewitness account.

It's time to stop making excuses for these clowns...

(Bold added)

And:

"Secret Service procedure in operation at this time did not allow Greer to accelerate or take evasive action ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE: he was supposed to wait for a command from his colleague seated next to him, Agent Kellerman". (Melanson)

Boy, did Melanson set himself up here: Rowley told the WC and Kelley told the HSCA that the drivers WERE given proper training and instructions on what to do in this situation:

Leave the area at once!

Also, as stated above, he didn't need his own initiative- Kellerman DID give him an order-what's the story?! Maybe Robert Snow should have told Melanson that Greer was hard of hearing- he probably would have believed him! Melanson does somewhat redeem himself here, though:

"But there was no action of any kind taken by either agent (Greer or Kellerman) during the 6 to 7 seconds that limousine rolled down Elm Street at a snail's pace".

(Bold added)

And for the member that has demonstrated difficulty with his reading comprehension, the above statements are Vince Palamara's, not mine.

Edited June 3, 2007 by Michael Hogan

[Myra Bronstein]

IMO, as armchair commentator : The consequences of acceleration and some sharp weaving (which the souped up engine was very capable of even though the Limo was very heavy) is that the targets are shaken about and displaced and the shooters more exposed as they take more desperate action. Kellerman should have shouted "FLOOR IT" and clambered over anything in his way to cover Kennedy at the first sign of a problem. This would have drawn the Queen Mary into action and they could then disperse armed personnel at any point. Instead there was inaction and steady speeds.

Again:

"The President's car was a Lincoln with a souped-up engine specially designed for rapid accelerations..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell14.html

Again again, in 1962 a similar ambush on De Gaulle's car failed because the drive accelerated. I would hope (wrongly perhaps) that secret service organizations and bodyguards would take note of that incident and have it fresh in their minds that immediate acceleration is the proper response to an ambush:

"Another Colonel, the Frenchman Bastien Thiry, attempted in 1962 to avenge the honor of the French Army by assassinating General De Gaulle. He set up an ambush using submachine guns at an intersection in the suburbs of Paris one evening when the General's car was due to pass on the way to the airport. The car, an ordinary Citroen, was going about 40 miles an hour. On a signal from the Colonel (a brandished newspaper), the gunmen fired more than 100 rounds, but neither the General nor his wife nor the driver nor the security agent accompanying them was hit. The tires were shot out, but the driver accelerated immediately, and the General disappeared over the horizon."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell15.html

And I have to note that the complicity of the secret service did not end with President Kennedy's life.

They suddenly became aggressive and energetic and intimidating when it came to illegally stealing the president's body at gunpoint from Parkland hospital, laundering John Connelly's clothing to erase evidence, and washing then rebuilding the presidential limo--aka the crime scene--thus eliminating critical evidence:

http://in-broad-daylight.com/

" What happened to the limo once it reached Parkland Hospital? Was it put on a flatbed or covered with a tarp until a forensic exam could be conducted by the DPD? No; instead the plexiglass top with a cloth cover were quickly put in place. Take a look at this Stoughton photo. Notice the pail of water next to the driver's door and the towel in the hands of the well-dressed man, SS Agent Kinney. Who are those Dallas policemen? Why isn't the area cordoned off? The water was used to at least wash the areas where the grommets of the roof and cover were attached to the car. The trunk was probably also washed to some extent, so that it could be lifted without the men's hands getting bloodied. This was all contamination of the crime scene.

Then, even before JFK was pronounced dead, the car was wisked away from Parkland Hospital to Love Field, where it was quickly driven onboard a C-130 for the flight back to DC. While onboard, according to one of the Air Force crew members, the SS started sifting through the debris, looking for evidence. The plane sat on the tarmac for about an hour and a half after Air Force One and did not leave until 3:30 in the afternoon, arriving at Andrews Air Force Base at 8 p.m. EST. Why was the C-130 carrying 100X and 679X sitting on the ground for so long? What was done during that time? Once 100X and 679X arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, escorts of the US Park Police accompanied the limo and backup car to the White House Garage

At 9 p.m., upon its return to the White House Garage, agents searched the car once more, finding two bullet fragments in the 'front seat' area -- CE 567 and CE 569. Both of these fragments had evidentiary value; that is, they were large enough to provide information linking them to the "Magic Bullet", CE 399, and, therefore, to Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. These were turned over to the FBI for testing in the famous FBI Crime Lab, one floor of the huge Justice Building, where J. Edgar Hoover and his colleague Deke DeLoach anxiously waited for evidence to be delivered so it could be tested by the lab's teams of experts. A piece of skull was also found in the car, and this was taken to Bethesda Naval Hospital and delivered to the doctors performing the autopsy on JFK. However, during all the time the SS had had possession of SS-100-X -- about twelve hours -- they took no photographs of it, made no notes about its condition, and drew no diagrams. Nothing of evidentiary value was left in the car for the FBI to find. In fact, the three tiny fragments the FBI did find were too tiny for testing; also the "smear" from inside the windshield was relatively insignificant. There was ample time for the SS to put 100-X into whatever condition they considered appropriate prior to turning it over to the FBI. The SS had completed their agenda of effectively 'sanitizing' the primary crime scene.

During the night and early morning of 11/23/63, from 1-4:30 a.m. SA Robert Frazier of the FBI and four of his men formally examined and photographed the car. This was the only forensic exam of the limo, and took place 12 hours after the assassination. These photos, called 'FBI Bulky photos', from the 1200 pages of documents used to create the FBI Summary Report, 62-109060 Bulky-8307X (Box 115, Folder 134), show the condition of the car that night. ...

The WHITE HOUSE GARAGE kept logs for two days after the assassination, because SS-100-X and SS-679-X had been given a security detail. The logs were used to record the entry and exit of those who did not have White House Garage credentials. Those who did have credentials, such as SS agents, and FMC Liaison Vaughn Ferguson did not have to log in. According to the White House Garage Logs which consist of two pages that go together sideways the windshield was replaced by two men from the Arlington Glass Company on 11/26/63. This is verified by DC Ford Employee and White House Garage liaison F Vaughn Ferguson who was present when the windshield was replaced.

Check out pages one and two of the fascinating12/18/63 internal Ford Company memo of Vaughn Ferguson (from the Ford Motor Company Washington, DC office, NARA RIF 180-10105-10086), to R.W. Markley, the White House contact. This memo was originally sent to me by NARA by mistake, as its status was 'postponed'. On realizing this error, it was then released, minus the date of December 18, 1963. This memo is valuable in that it places the limo in the White House Garage following the assassination. It, along with statements by Rowley, Taylor, Kinney and Hoover give insight into what happened to 100-X after it was returned to DC; that it was cleaned, windshield replaced, back carpeting replaced and ready for the road by early December, 1963. The "Ferguson Memo" was also the catalyst for the January 6, 1964 letter from Chief Rowley (CD-80) to the Warren Commission.Page One two three fourfive (Support documents to be added soon). .."

This site has extensive photos of the limo.

It has all sort of good info and even advice:

"Unfortunately, in many of the forums, and occasionally even at the level of a presentation, there will be information given where the person has not done their homework, gets backed into a corner, and through sheer ignorance puts forth theories that are bizarre. This is part of the environment and the possibility needs to be acknowledged. In some cases even *serious* researchers have been taken in by the persuasive but unfounded claims of someone able to present well. In addition, especially in the newsgroups and forums, you may find those who, for one reason or another, will attack you and whatever you put forth. It is no surprise that after 40 years there are so few answers -- there are some who seem to make it their business, whether for pay or as a vicious hobby, to do little more than try to stop the process cold. Also, there will be instances where you will see different schools of "the opposite of research" -- one being the "na na boo" school, where one person will be lording it over another; in a second, there is the "peek a boo" school, where a person shows bits and pieces of uncited documents and attempts to lure you into reacting as though it were valid research. In the third, there can be ongoing endless ad hominem and strawmen posts, where the person deliberately and repeatedly attacks a researcher, distorts their position, deliberately twist their words and repeatedly refuse to acknowledge what they are doing -- in other words 'pure barf'. Unfortunately, it's all part of the environment. The only hope is to at times define the environment or just step away from the group for a while."

Edited June 3, 2007 by Myra Bronstein

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Myra:

Re the below information on the Limo that you have brought forth, from Pamela's site...........to get up to date.....within the studies of that area the

SS & the 100..X...

There is much further information, re the Limo and the "windshield" investigation in particular, by Doug Weldon.....within Dr.Fetzers books.......see "Murder In Dealey Plaza"...as well as the other two in the series...

Also in the Videos TMWKK, though I believe it could be in "The Guilty Men"..not sure right now, perhaps someone will know positively......?

There is newer,research by Mr.Weldon that has been done.....if you are leaning in that direction..I believe by your post..

FYI..

""The WHITE HOUSE GARAGE kept logs for two days after the assassination, because SS-100-X and SS-679-X had been given a security detail. The logs were used to record the entry and exit of those who did not have White House Garage credentials. Those who did have credentials, such as SS agents, and FMC Liaison Vaughn Ferguson did not have to log in. According to the White House Garage Logs which consist of two pages that go together sideways the windshield was replaced by two men from the Arlington Glass Company on 11/26/63. This is verified by DC Ford Employee and White House Garage liaison F Vaughn Ferguson who was present when the windshield was replaced.

Check out pages one and two of the fascinating12/18/63 internal Ford Company memo of Vaughn Ferguson (from the Ford Motor Company Washington, DC office, NARA RIF 180-10105-10086), to R.W. Markley, the White House contact. This memo was originally sent to me by NARA by mistake, as its status was 'postponed'. On realizing this error, it was then released, minus the date of December 18, 1963. This memo is valuable in that it places the limo in the White House Garage following the assassination. It, along with statements by Rowley, Taylor, Kinney and Hoover give insight into what happened to 100-X after it was returned to DC; that it was cleaned, windshield replaced, back carpeting replaced and ready for the road by early December, 1963. The "Ferguson Memo" was also the catalyst for the January 6, 1964 letter from Chief Rowley (CD-80) to the Warren Commission.Page One two three fourfive (Support documents to be added soon). .."

Some of the SS Agents from that time period......originally from the Anthony Marsh collection...

Clint Hill was presented with an award for "Extraordinary courage and heroic effort in the face of maximum danger."

Gif by Mr.Aqbat...(spelling...sorry?)....Zapruder & Nix film comparisons..

Thanks...all.......B

Edited June 4, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Myra Bronstein]

Hi Myra:

Re the below information on the Limo that you have brought forth, from Pamela's site...........to get up to date.....within the studies of that area the

SS & the 100..X...

There is much further information, re the Limo and the "windshield" investigation in particular, by Doug Weldon.....within Dr.Fetzers books.......see "Murder In Dealey Plaza"...as well as the other two in the series...

Also in the Videos TMWKK, though I believe it could be in "The Guilty Men"..not sure right now, perhaps someone will know positively......?

There is newer,research by Mr.Weldon that has been done.....if you are leaning in that direction..I believe by your post..

FYI..

""The WHITE HOUSE GARAGE kept logs for two days after the assassination, because SS-100-X and SS-679-X had been given a security detail. The logs were used to record the entry and exit of those who did not have White House Garage credentials. Those who did have credentials, such as SS agents, and FMC Liaison Vaughn Ferguson did not have to log in. According to the White House Garage Logs which consist of two pages that go together sideways the windshield was replaced by two men from the Arlington Glass Company on 11/26/63. This is verified by DC Ford Employee and White House Garage liaison F Vaughn Ferguson who was present when the windshield was replaced.

Check out pages one and two of the fascinating12/18/63 internal Ford Company memo of Vaughn Ferguson (from the Ford Motor Company Washington, DC office, NARA RIF 180-10105-10086), to R.W. Markley, the White House contact. This memo was originally sent to me by NARA by mistake, as its status was 'postponed'. On realizing this error, it was then released, minus the date of December 18, 1963. This memo is valuable in that it places the limo in the White House Garage following the assassination. It, along with statements by Rowley, Taylor, Kinney and Hoover give insight into what happened to 100-X after it was returned to DC; that it was cleaned, windshield replaced, back carpeting replaced and ready for the road by early December, 1963. The "Ferguson Memo" was also the catalyst for the January 6, 1964 letter from Chief Rowley (CD-80) to the Warren Commission.Page One two three fourfive (Support documents to be added soon). .."

Some of the SS Agents from that time period......originally from the Anthony Marsh collection...

Clint Hill was presented with an award for "Extraordinary courage and heroic effort in the face of maximum danger."

Gif by Mr.Aqbat...(spelling...sorry?)....Zapruder & Nix film comparisons..

Thanks...all.......B

Thank you very much Bernice. I just stumbled across that site, I don't know who Pamela is or if the site is still being updated.

But I was very impressed with it.

I appreciate the pointers to related information.

Myra

[Bernice Moore]

Your welcome..

I came to correct my error on which Tape on TMWKK..unfortunately Doug Weldon is on the final chapter which is not available for

purchase..

The Smoking Guns....the last of that video series..... though I am wondering if it is on one of the sites such

as Gil Jesus and John has been enabling for us...?

Doug is finally writing a book, on this subject......when it shall be out I have no idea. Hopefully soon..He has been researching this subject

since 78 thereabouts,

I believe and it is the study of the SS + the Limo....and what shenanigans occurred surrounding it..

The story is not straight forward as some would seemingly have us believe, nothing is within the subject of the assn....

and it was the prime evidence, the murder scene in otherwards.....and was destroyed..... as so much else has been...

It is one of the subject areas though there has been some work done, there has not been a complete deep study. That

is what he has done...

The SS certainly by Vince Palamara, but not the 100X....so we await...

You and or some may be interested in his article at Mary's site....

Kennedy Chronicles , Volume 5 Issue 1..1999

A study of the Presidential Limousine, by Doug Weldon..

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=226698

B...

Edited June 5, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Myra Bronstein]

Your welcome..

I came to correct my error on which Tape on TMWKK..unfortunately Doug Weldon is on the final chapter which is not available for

purchase..

The Smoking Guns....the last of that video series..... though I am wondering if it is on one of the sites such

as Gil Jesus and John has been enabling for us...?

Doug is finally writing a book, on this subject......when it shall be out I have no idea. Hopefully soon..He has been researching this subject

since 78 thereabouts,

I believe and it is the study of the SS + the Limo....and what shenanigans occurred surrounding it..

...

That's exactly how I discovered that website Bernice (Pamela's?); I'm documenting, among other things, the destruction of evidence so I was searching for details on the scrubbed limo and the laundered clothes.

That would be great to see a thorough book on the subject.

Palamara documented the SS antics.

Lifton documented the corruption of the tampering with the President's body.

But not enough written on the limo and clothes and other destroyed evidence.

For example the "repaired"/removed curb that Jim Tague's bullet hit, the replaced freeway sign a bullet hit...

I don't care how many books there are now on this crime, there still aren't enough.

[Bernice Moore]

Thanks Kathy it is segment 3.....great...appreciated.

Myra: I have to say it girl, you have a long, long way to go, and are a beggar for punishment....in finding destroyed

evidence, like have you got say the next ten years anyway or so... to try to run it down...well good.....and a

tremendous amount of reading time, along the way......there is only so much

on the web, most of all is within the books...and then what is real and was and what was not.. is another question...

Certainly not meaning to throw any cold water on your enterprise , please do so, and keep it going....But with your site

and all, you are busy with......it just hit me as funny, like biting off, 3/4rs of a cake...and all at the same time,

but I certainly wish you the best of luck with your compilation....you go to it....girl..

BTW: the woman that runs the site is Pamela McElwain-Brown..

Dougs bio is also below...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKweldonD.htm

I think there is info on the clothes in the "Murder"series Dr.Jim's..within those 3 books....there is so much ..see they are a

compilation of the works of many, who have studied separate areas and wrote their information and is presented as a chapter

within the three, it is not all there ...there certainly is also a great amount of information on many areas within other books as well..

..such as within Armstrongs Harvey & Lee, a ton of it..and David Lifton's BE...and many others

The Tague curb hit, is covered by Harold Weisberg and the curb has been destroyed, along with the analysis, they did not have enough

room to store it, a wee tiny piece of film the size perhaps of a postage stamp,containing that analysis.. not enough room, you ought to

hear Harold go on about that one...on tape.....and if

memory serves he does have that analysis information within his books......so what he did gather

for us at the time, what was available, and through his many suits, to the Gov. yeah Harold... for the documents, as well as a helpful

soul working within the archives, is perhaps all we shall ever get on that subject..

hopefully not, but ??

The Weisberg books BTW are available through Horn College and at a very good price..compared to many....

They are published for and taught as a course for the students, so are in a type of paper back form, medium sized,but it is all there..

The Stemmons Freeway sign, the earliest I have read is that it was removed within 30 minutes but I doubt that imo, but what do I know.?

.....However in Weisberg there is information by the groundskeeper, who stated that it was gone by Spring,

Penn Jones also states that when they went back the next Spring the sign had been replaced...but no one knew when exactly.

Now some time ago someone did contact the Dallas Works Dept....I kind of think they went to see them, ??anyway who takes

care of such things...hoping the within the records, the information would be found, but they were told no, there were no records

kept when such things as the signs were replaced??? and certainly none going back that far..perhaps gobbleygook.?? We shall never

know, as they have been changed about on a regular basis it seems, as well as the light poles and with the addition of others...down

though the years..so...??

So all the best within your research..

B..

Edited June 5, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Myra Bronstein]

Thanks Kathy it is segment 3.....great...appreciated.

Myra: I have to say it girl, you have a long, long way to go, and are a beggar for punishment....in finding destroyed

evidence, like have you got say the next ten years anyway or so... to try to run it down...well good.....and a

tremendous amount of reading time, along the way......there is only so much

on the web, most of all is within the books...and then what is real and was and what was not.. is another question...

Certainly not meaning to throw any cold water on your enterprise , please do so, and keep it going....But with your site

and all, you are busy with......it just hit me as funny, like biting off, 3/4rs of a cake...and all at the same time,

but I certainly wish you the best of luck with your compilation....you go to it....girl..

...

Thanks Bernice. I know it's a lot, but I'm finding my niche as a generalist not a specialist.

I want a detailed big picture. Just enough info to string things together but, ideally, not so much that I bog down.

I just want an overview on most things. I'm not literally trying to find the scrubbed evidence, just trying to summarize

and demonstrate that it was scrubbed. If that makes any sense.

Making sure something is credible and deciding which version to believe when accounts contradict is proving vexing though.

One example is the history I read by Fletcher Prouty, which does not jibe with what I read anywhere else. So does that mean he isn't as good a source as I thought? Or does he just have such inside knowledge that other's don't share it?

Anyway, it helps when you point me to specific books. I can start piecing things together with web info but ultimately I need to confirm it with good ol' fashioned quaint books. I'm reading as fast as I can... But as you say I got a long ways to go, even

as a mere aspiring generalist.

I realize I'm sort of prying here, but how long did it take you to accumulate your knowledge on this subject?

It's quite vast.

[Myra Bronstein]

...

The Stemmons Freeway sign, the earliest I have read is that it was removed within 30 minutes but I doubt that imo, but what do I know.?

.....However in Weisberg there is information by the groundskeeper, who stated that it was gone by Spring,

Penn Jones also states that when they went back the next Spring the sign had been replaced...but no one knew when exactly.

...

One more thing Bernice, James, all--

Are there any photos of the bullet hole in the Stemmons Freeway sign?

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Myra,

None that have been proven to my knowledge....though there were statements made by some that it was hit,

there is no proof..that I have ever seen.There are photos enlarged of what some thought could be, but ?

I have been reading about him since before he became President, my Dad was Irish.

And after the assn it continued, the reading and studying, the papers, magazines,books and connecting,

what was available back then and it was not much.

The following through on the evidence as far as possible..as for the photos, and docs... from the web,

and scanning so many from the books..and information found. Building your own library..

Now with the videos and the DVDs available and the WC report, and the other reports on the web and studies,

as well as all else, it is like Christmas every day to many....plus the radio programs etc...it is like a damn burst

with a flood of information, and has been of great benefit to all..but studying is about it....

You can read what many say but you must do your own and follow through...and that is where the studies comes in..imo.

B

Edited June 5, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Chuck Robbins]

Four days before Dallas, in Tampa, this is what the SS was doing during the motorcade.

Two men riding the bumper AND there is a 3rd man sitting in the front seat.

Any shot through the windshield would have nailed this guy and JFK would not have been a viable target.

The photo won't upload right now. I will try to edit it in later.

[Charles Black]

Yes Chuck

But what is RELEVANT....is not how the seating was arranged on any other day !

The only relevance was "The Planned Seating" on the day of the murder....and the seating was planned.

I feel the missile thru the windshield to be MOST RELEVANT, as the seating arrangement was pre planned. I don't believe that "anyone doubts" that an object travelled thru the windscreen and that the windscreen was immediately replaced. This is most important...If not for a "sinister" reason, why in the midst of all else that was happening, was its "immediate replacement" deemed necessary? And even more telling...."why destroy this original piece of most important evidence?"

This goes far beyond being "an unusual event"! It was deliberate....and the evidence was deliberately destroyed !

Charles Black

[Peter McGuire]

Four days before Dallas, in Tampa, this is what the SS was doing during the motorcade.

Two men riding the bumper AND there is a 3rd man sitting in the front seat.

Any shot through the windshield would have nailed this guy and JFK would not have been a viable target.

The photo won't upload right now. I will try to edit it in later.

Any luck with that photo, Chuck? I believe it DOES matter what the arrangement was on other days.

And I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Vince to the forum. I really appreciate your groundbreaking work on the Secret Service's actions that day. Their actions are a bitter pill to swallow. I believe that is why they got away with it for so long. Who could believe they would do such a thing?

But Vince, take it easy on Ms. Baker , ok? Her story does not make or break this case and it would only serve to exonerate Oswald.

Edited June 17, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I don't mean to trivialize the topic but there seems to be a belief that because a person has been trained to do a thing, he or she will do that thing perfectly when required to do so.

If you want to see proof that this simply isn't true when dealing with human beings, just watch any sporting event on any day of any week.

Here you'll see professional athletes who not only train at one point of their life but daily. They go through intense drills, they watch films of games, they study playbooks. They are coached to within an inch of their lives.

And yet...

On the field, when faced with a situation, they sometimes fail to execute the behavior that was so punishingly drilled into them. They pivot left instead of right, they kick a ball over a teammates' head. How does it happen? It's just human frailty. Lack of robotic perfection.

Once again, these are people are who trained with sophisticated behavior techniques. And yet they cannot do the thing expected of them 100 percent of the time.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't require a conspiracy to explain the reaction of the SS agents - it doesn't rule one out but there are far more logical answers.

Mark;

My appreciation for having posted the single most relevant and accurate response in this entire repertoire of comments.

Kind of justifies (in my mind anyway) why I even bother to hang around this forum.

For all: There is in fact intelligent life on this planet after all, as well as some here who clearly demonstrate the "EDUCATION" in the "Education Forum".

Tom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer

P.S. If one will read up on the history of General Custer, then they will find that there is far more reasons for his defeat than merely charging "head-on" into the Sioux Nation.

As he did exactly the same actions some years before at the Battle of the Waxxxxa in which he ran off and left his rear forces as well as his additional ammunition and supplies, and allowed his considerably smaller force to become totally separated.

History has now corrected much of the "Custer's Last Stand" episode as it has not come to realize that many of those at the Battle of the Little Big Horn actually committed suicide with their last round/bullet, as they had been allowed to become seperated into smaller forces, thus allowing the Sioux to concentrate on each smaller element as it had time.

The smaller elements of Custer's forces were isolated, and since Custer had again (see Battle of Waxxxxa) run off and left his rear guard forces as well as supplies, the Sioux progressively eliminated one small force at a time until such time as the remaining members committed suicide.

Additionally, any accurate research of history would also reveal that Custer's troops were armed with the old "trapdoor" Springfield Rifle, while in fact much of Sitting Bull's forces were armed with the newer Winchester Repeating Rifles.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/forum...D=2&ID=7724

(Let's hear it for those wonderful "Arms Dealers" who had no repulsion at selling these weapons to the Sioux"

http://www.westernerspublications.ltd.uk/C...20the%20LBH.htm

http://www.westernerspublications.ltd.uk/C...20the%20LBH.htm

Custer's forces had considerable problems with cartridge casing swelling and extraction of these cartridges in the old Trapdoor Springfield, and in many cases were left holding a rifle in which they could not even get the expended casing extracted from the rifle in order to continue fighting, even if they had additional ammunition.

So!

Anyone who merely states that "Custer's Last Charge" was anything noble, organized, etc; needs to find another "History Forum" and read up on the facts as to exactly why Custer and his forces were defeated.

Had Custer not been attacking a peaceful village of largely older women and children at the Battle of the Waxxxxa, and had his rear echelon supplies not finally caught up to him, then "Custer's Last Stand" would be just outside Cheyenne,OK

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Tom, thanks. As you are aware, logic is plain and unglamorous. It doesn't negate the possibility of sinister melodrama - just marginalizes it.