the 1963 Secret Service

[Larry Hancock]

Not that it doesn't fit Ron - but again in my opinon the things that really fit and class as major diversions are:

1. The stalled pick up under the overpass which distracted officers for a good hour before the motorcade.

2. The ambulance call to Elm and Houston which distracted everyone in the area for

about 15 min right up to the arrival of the motorcade.

3. A first shot that made the SS detail look back over their shoulders

just as they entered the kill zone.

4. The "beret" man waving on the sidewalk which clearly drew Greers eyes

immediately afterwards

5. The smoke and noise from the grassy knoll that drew everyone there after the shooting.

Those are my picks for major diversions; I'm guessing the shooter on the south knoll

was not just inserted there at the last minute nor the last hour.

-- Larry

Larry,

In a nutshell, we have evidence that the fatal head shot came from the area of the south end of the overpass. This source of the shot was persuasively argued by Al Carrier, and is also now the opinion of blood spatter expert Sherry Gutierrez. Now consider that we have a bunch of people on the north end, who would unwittingly distract attention from the south end, and we have a police officer who sees a non-existent train that blocks his view of the south end.

It all fits pretty neatly, doesn't it?

Ron

[Robin Unger]

Larry,

In a nutshell, we have evidence that the fatal head shot came from the area of the south end of the overpass. This source of the shot was persuasively argued by Al Carrier, and is also now the opinion of blood spatter expert Sherry Gutierrez. Now consider that we have a bunch of people on the north end, who would unwittingly distract attention from the south end, and we have a police officer who sees a non-existent train that blocks his view of the south end.

It all fits pretty neatly, doesn't it?

Ron

Hi Ron/Larry

The trees in this image appear to make good covering for a sniper from anyone who may be looking in that direction from the underpass.

Although, i think there eyes may have been diverted to the limo by this time.

I think it may also be possible to hit kenedy in the right temple from this position, although the windshield may pose a problem. ?

One way to divert peoples attention fron the SOUTH knoll, would be to make smoke and noise on the NORTH knoll.

SMOKE AND MIRRORS

Edited May 20, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Charles Black]

Hello Larry

Per usual, I am in agreement with the greater part of your most recent posts.

I wish to reaffirm, that Greer's age (54), IMHO had little to do with his decisions.

I have undergone some pretty proficient military training, and were I the driver, whether my age was 54 or 24.....looking toward that overpass as the optimal asassination position, I hope that I would have stopped "immediately", cleared the car, and covered the President. To me there were no militarily logical alternatives ! An opinion only, however, I feel that this was Greer's intial intention, and accelerated "only" after having been so ordered. I feel also that this was perhaps Kellerman's "most immediate" decision, but ordered the "go ahead" upon realizing that several occupants had already been hit and may have been mortally wounded.

His subsequent comments would of course have been his following of directives. He has, in my opinion, been criticized for not attempting to proceed deeper into a "kill zone"!

Once again, I personally strongly believe that this was not a "conspiracy" of thousands or even hundreds, which included "lower level" personnel!

This why MORE "have not spoken", and that this coup has been an almost 44 year success !

Charles Black

Edited May 20, 2007 by Charles Black

[Ron Ecker]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

[Myra Bronstein]

I feel that they, including Greer and Kellerman, responded poorly to a very confusing situation.

Were I the limo driver, and hearing what I thought might be gunshots, as I looked at the "overpass" that was not cleared, and was probably THE most ideal position for a shooter, I would seriously have questioned, whether I should proceed toward the shooter.....or stop....there was no way to turn left or right, nor was it possibe to back up.

Who could clearly argue that if the driver thought that the assassin was to the front and above, that it may have not been the correct decision to "Stop and Clear the Car of Targets"!

Do you mean the people on the overpass in this picture? A picture , unlike the cropped version of it that doesn't show people on the overpass.

The question has to be; why were these people allowed to be there in the first place? Wouldn't that create some security issues?

Ok, let's say Greer thought what you guess he was thinking. It didn't work very well, did it?

So quickly speeding up to 50 or miles per hour in that six seconds just might have been a better idea?

"Just a thought"

"Another Colonel, the Frenchman Bastien Thiry, attempted in 1962 to avenge the honor of the French Army by assassinating General De Gaulle. He set up an ambush using submachine guns at an intersection in the suburbs of Paris one evening when the General's car was due to pass on the way to the airport. The car, an ordinary Citroen, was going about 40 miles an hour. On a signal from the Colonel (a brandished newspaper), the gunmen fired more than 100 rounds, but neither the General nor his wife nor the driver nor the security agent accompanying them was hit. The tires were shot out, but the driver accelerated immediately, and the General disappeared over the horizon."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell15.html

I'll just bet the perps were well aware of the reason the De Gaulle assassination failed, and insured that wouldn't happen in the Kennedy assassination. It may have even been the same gang.

"The President's car was a Lincoln with a souped-up engine specially designed for rapid accelerations,..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell14.html

"The first bullet came from no. 1 and struck the President in the throat. The second apparently came from no. 4 and hit the President in the back. No. 3 hit Connally, and no. 2's bullet went through a traffic sign between him and the car. Then, as Young blood covered Johnson and spectators began to scream, there was a pause. Four seconds after they opened fire, the gunmen must have been dumbfounded. When the first shot strangled the President, no one moved. At the sound of the second, Governor Connally turned around and was wounded, but the driver still didn't budge, and Kellerman barely turned his head. The final shots awakened the agents in the back-up car, but Kellerman was still lost in his dreams, and Greer failed to react even to the whine of Halfback's siren. Four shots had been fired, and the car was still moving at the same speed. Despite the careful preparations and the skillful marksmanship, not only was the President alive, but he was not mortally wounded. His life depended literally on Greer's reflexes,..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell18.html

[Myra Bronstein]

Larry,

In a nutshell, we have evidence that the fatal head shot came from the area of the south end of the overpass. This source of the shot was persuasively argued by Al Carrier, and is also now the opinion of blood spatter expert Sherry Gutierrez. Now consider that we have a bunch of people on the north end, who would unwittingly distract attention from the south end, and we have a police officer who sees a non-existent train that blocks his view of the south end.

It all fits pretty neatly, doesn't it?

Ron

Hi Ron/Larry

The trees in this image appear to make good covering for a sniper from anyone who may be looking in that direction from the underpass.

Although, i think there eyes may have been diverted to the limo by this time.

I think it may also be possible to hit kenedy in the right temple from this position, although the windshield may pose a problem. ?

...

You mean the windshield with the bullet hole in it?

[Ron Ecker]

Al Carrier calculated a few years ago how a shot from the top of the south end of the overpass would clear the windshield and the crossbar at the time of the head shot.

[Charles Black]

I will strongly forever maintain that a leader trained for a combat situation, would not direct his force to charge full speed ahead, at an enemy of unknown strength, that appeared to be not only directly ahead of him, but one who also occupied the "high ground".

Any doubt of this shows an unbelievable lack of knowlege of military tactics. Excuse my apparent arrogance, but many of you are traversing "unknown territory" and have become lost in decades old innuendo bordering on "old wives tales".

I suggest you quit pointing fingers at the "driver"

Why aren't you pointing to the "Parade Route Approver". This was a sin of "commission" and not one of possible "omission" !

Killing the messenger ?

Consider the situation. This is neither "rocket science" nor any "advanced" military tactics, that have not been in practice for "millenia" !

Read Julius Caesar !

Charles Black

Edited May 20, 2007 by Charles Black

[Ron Ecker]

Charlie,

One question. If what you say is true, why didn't Greer explain this in his testimony, instead of lying? He testified that when he realized something was wrong, he tramped on the accelerator and got out of there. Why was he lying?

As for an enemy of unknown strength on the high ground in front, Greer testified that he saw nothing on the overpass that concerned him. Indeed he couldn't remember seeing anything at all there. Just another lie?

Ron

[Paul Rigby]

I will strongly forever maintain that a leader trained for a combat situation, would not direct his force to charge full speed ahead, at an enemy of unknown strength, that appeared to be not only directly ahead of him, but one who also occupied the "high ground".

Any doubt of this shows an unbelievable lack of knowlege of military tactics. Excuse my apparent arrogance, but many of you are traversing "unknown territory" and have become lost in decades old innuendo bordering on "old wives tales".

I suggest you quit pointing fingers at the "driver"

So remind me, Charlie, in which direction did Greer eventually drive?

[Mark Stapleton]

Larry,

In a nutshell, we have evidence that the fatal head shot came from the area of the south end of the overpass. This source of the shot was persuasively argued by Al Carrier, and is also now the opinion of blood spatter expert Sherry Gutierrez. Now consider that we have a bunch of people on the north end, who would unwittingly distract attention from the south end, and we have a police officer who sees a non-existent train that blocks his view of the south end.

It all fits pretty neatly, doesn't it?

Ron

Hi Ron/Larry

The trees in this image appear to make good covering for a sniper from anyone who may be looking in that direction from the underpass.

Although, i think there eyes may have been diverted to the limo by this time.

I think it may also be possible to hit kenedy in the right temple from this position, although the windshield may pose a problem. ?

One way to divert peoples attention fron the SOUTH knoll, would be to make smoke and noise on the NORTH knoll.

SMOKE AND MIRRORS

Robin, Ron et al,

The thread's taken an interesting turn here.

Could a bullet fired from the south knoll cause the damage inflicted on the right side of JFK's head?

Why not? I believe the consensus opinion is that an exploding bullet was used, so it's entirely possible, imo.

I've always wondered about the faint trail of the bullet seen in the Z frames fractionally before JFK's head explodes. It appeared to be coming from an impossibly high angle, which doesn't seem to fit with a shot fired from behind the picket fence. I've always considered this was because the speed of the bullet caused a kind of optical illusion when viewing the Z film--or maybe that the film had been altered, of course.

Anyway, it's an interesting question.

[Peter McGuire]

Larry,

In a nutshell, we have evidence that the fatal head shot came from the area of the south end of the overpass. This source of the shot was persuasively argued by Al Carrier, and is also now the opinion of blood spatter expert Sherry Gutierrez. Now consider that we have a bunch of people on the north end, who would unwittingly distract attention from the south end, and we have a police officer who sees a non-existent train that blocks his view of the south end.

It all fits pretty neatly, doesn't it?

Ron

Hi Ron/Larry

The trees in this image appear to make good covering for a sniper from anyone who may be looking in that direction from the underpass.

Although, i think there eyes may have been diverted to the limo by this time.

I think it may also be possible to hit kenedy in the right temple from this position, although the windshield may pose a problem. ?

One way to divert peoples attention fron the SOUTH knoll, would be to make smoke and noise on the NORTH knoll.

SMOKE AND MIRRORS

It appeared to be coming from an impossibly high angle, which doesn't seem to fit with a shot fired from behind the picket fence

I have long thought the same thing, like it was coming from a helicopter. Wasn't that mentioned in Farewell to Justice?

[Myra Bronstein]

...

I've always wondered about the faint trail of the bullet seen in the Z frames fractionally before JFK's head explodes. It appeared to be coming from an impossibly high angle...

Then there's the school of thought that the bullet came from an impossibly low angle, which has led some (like Tom Wilson in TMWKK) to speculate (wrongly I believe) that it came from the storm sewer.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

I'll just bet the perps were well aware of the reason the De Gaulle assassination failed, and insured that wouldn't happen in the Kennedy assassination. It may have even been the same gang. [...]

_______

Myra,

I'll just bet you're right....

--Thomas

_______

[Thomas Graves]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

______________________________

Excellent point, Ron.

I wish Tosh was still contributing to this "Debate."

--Thomas

______________________________

Edited May 21, 2007 by Thomas Graves