the 1963 Secret Service

[Mark Stapleton]

[quote name='Peter McGuire' date='May 20 2007, 10:05 PM' post='1029

I have long thought the same thing, like it was coming from a helicopter. Wasn't that mentioned in Farewell to Justice?

Peter,

I actually thought it came from a helicopter, too, the angle of elevation seemed that steep. Thanks for the tip about FTJ. I bought it some time ago and still have yet to read more than a few pages. It didn't really grab me.

[Myra Bronstein]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

______________________________

Excellent point, Ron.

Too bad Ms Bee harassed him to the point of quiting The Forum....

--Thomas

______________________________

Ah but TomASS, you fill in so well for your hero, it's almost as though he speaks through you...

Heckling by proxy.

Covert even in his absence.

Skulking around removing his own posts so no one can see for themselves if he contradicted himself every time his fingers touched the keyboard. Then playing the martyr, mean girl kicked e-sand in his e-face and chased him from his e-sandbox...

Hey! Since you speak for ToSH you can go back into all his scrubbed posts and painstakingly reconstruct them

(you MUST have them memorized given that you live vicariously through him) so that people can see and judge for

themselves if he was e-bullied from the forum or if he fled after he repeatedly e-tripping himself up on his own e-words,

hoisted on his own e-tard as it were, and someone pointed it out.

How convenient that he scrubbed his posts squeaky clean before his deputy launched CIA Project: Heckle JFK Assassination Researcher, making it impossible for open-minded people to see the truth. How very very like the CIA that is to cover-up

the facts, and even have a little ongoing propaganda campaign. Ahh, just like old times.

So TomASS, since yoU now speak for ToSH, you should be able to explain why yoU (i.e., ToSH) felt it necessary to take the time to scrub all youR (i.e., hIS) posts from the site before yOu skulked off into the covert abyss. Why would an upstanding sincere truthful well-intentioned, not to mention martyred, guyS like you'SE need to hide what you'SE said?

Do tell...

[Mark Stapleton]

I feel that they, including Greer and Kellerman, responded poorly to a very confusing situation.

Were I the limo driver, and hearing what I thought might be gunshots, as I looked at the "overpass" that was not cleared, and was probably THE most ideal position for a shooter, I would seriously have questioned, whether I should proceed toward the shooter.....or stop....there was no way to turn left or right, nor was it possibe to back up.

Who could clearly argue that if the driver thought that the assassin was to the front and above, that it may have not been the correct decision to "Stop and Clear the Car of Targets"!

Do you mean the people on the overpass in this picture? A picture , unlike the cropped version of it that doesn't show people on the overpass.

The question has to be; why were these people allowed to be there in the first place? Wouldn't that create some security issues?

Ok, let's say Greer thought what you guess he was thinking. It didn't work very well, did it?

So quickly speeding up to 50 or miles per hour in that six seconds just might have been a better idea?

"Just a thought"

"Another Colonel, the Frenchman Bastien Thiry, attempted in 1962 to avenge the honor of the French Army by assassinating General De Gaulle. He set up an ambush using submachine guns at an intersection in the suburbs of Paris one evening when the General's car was due to pass on the way to the airport. The car, an ordinary Citroen, was going about 40 miles an hour. On a signal from the Colonel (a brandished newspaper), the gunmen fired more than 100 rounds, but neither the General nor his wife nor the driver nor the security agent accompanying them was hit. The tires were shot out, but the driver accelerated immediately, and the General disappeared over the horizon."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell15.html

I'll just bet the perps were well aware of the reason the De Gaulle assassination failed, and insured that wouldn't happen in the Kennedy assassination. It may have even been the same gang.

"The President's car was a Lincoln with a souped-up engine specially designed for rapid accelerations,..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell14.html

"The first bullet came from no. 1 and struck the President in the throat. The second apparently came from no. 4 and hit the President in the back. No. 3 hit Connally, and no. 2's bullet went through a traffic sign between him and the car. Then, as Young blood covered Johnson and spectators began to scream, there was a pause. Four seconds after they opened fire, the gunmen must have been dumbfounded. When the first shot strangled the President, no one moved. At the sound of the second, Governor Connally turned around and was wounded, but the driver still didn't budge, and Kellerman barely turned his head. The final shots awakened the agents in the back-up car, but Kellerman was still lost in his dreams, and Greer failed to react even to the whine of Halfback's siren. Four shots had been fired, and the car was still moving at the same speed. Despite the careful preparations and the skillful marksmanship, not only was the President alive, but he was not mortally wounded. His life depended literally on Greer's reflexes,..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell18.html

Whether the assassination of JFK was carried out by the same people as those who tried to get De Gaulle is an interesting question, but regardless of the answer one thing is almost certain, imo--the plotters who killed JFK learned valuable lessons from the De Gaulle incident. I agree the major thing they learned was that, above all, the driver must be nobbled. Greer's lethargy was no stroke of luck for the plotters, it was planned that way. An alert driver could have ruined the whole plan for them. Don't know how they did it, other than to include Greer in the plot--very risky but how else could they depend on his lethargic performance? It seems far more risky for the plotters to merely take a punt that the driver will obligingly react so slowly. I read somewhere that he disliked JFK but I know little about his personal background.

[Duke Lane]

I have pursued issues in the JFK assassination to a strong degree by the ages old question of "who were the most likely beneficiaries" of JFK's removal ?

... Unlike many, I believe that the support of LBJ and JEH had to be "insured" prior to any other steps being taken. The precarious positions which these two found themselves in 1963 politically, and LBJ's additional potential of being criminally prosecuted as well as being dropped from the Democrat ticket in 1964, almost insured their support and partcipation, merely by studying both their "character flaws and history" !

... I would like opinions on how a small number within the leadership of this group, could have "truly covertly" done this ? I feel that this would have been nearly impossible.

I often think that the question of cui bono? is often examined much too narrowly, and a very possible rationale for the whitewash that was the Warren Commission examined not at all. While by no means either exhaustive or definitive, consider these possibilities:

Why could not all of America have been perceived to the chief beneficiary of JFK's death? What greater motivation might some have had other than simple all-American patriotism? Patriotism, that is, as perceived by a relative few, with or without assistance from the official and semi-official circles most often mentioned as those with axes to grind?

Could not the WC (an appropriate acronym) have been the fruit of the realization that we'd never get at the evidence of the real perps' guilt, and that the lesser evil was in incorrectly and improperly "convicting" a man "in the press" (as it were ... but with an official imprimatur) than admitting that it was going to be extremely difficult if not actually impossible to catch the real killer(s) of the President of the United States, that the case would most likely go unsolved?

Sometimes it seems as if some of the WC assistant counsel went out of the way to get strange facts on the record, even if they never themselves made any follow-up to it or even gave any reason for why some of the questions they asked were asked. Were these but hints to future readers, or even to the perps that counsel was "onto" them, even tho' they'd probably get away with it?

. . . . .

Activists there are aplenty in this world, always have been, probably always will be. They're not of one political stripe or any other: consider the arch-conservative Silent Brotherhood that gunned down Denver broadcast personality Alan Berg, the more loosely-organized (?) folks who think nothing of bombing occupied abortion clinics, and at the same time the ultra-liberals who'll likewise perform outrageous acts in the name of ecology and endangered species (probably in their case killing more people out of naivete than actual malice), all simply to make a point about how the world should be in their view?

The Cold War world of 1963 was not far behind the days of the Communist-hunting campaign of Wisconsin Senator Joseph McCarthy, whom many people still considered a true American hero and patriot. No matter your view on that subject, McCarthy's aims and tactics were celebrated by many as being the only true and correct way to root out the evil of the Communist menace from our democratic shores: "the Senator was a great American whose memory we must all revere" was how one conservative writer (below) put it in 1964.

... And John F. Kennedy - rich, young, Yankee, liberal, Democrat, Catholic - was going to simply give away our country to the USSR: not even sell us out, just give it all away. Or so went the outlook of - and outpourings from - the political Right, notably but not limited to the John Birch Society (JBS), "States Rights" parties, KKK and other conservative groups ... the "right-wing extremists," which the following author calls "the Bolshevik's code-word for informed and loyal Americans," that is, people just like you and me and all of us.

For a look at their version of Rush Limbaugh (on steroids!), read not only the WC testimony but also the collected works of one Professor Revilo Pendleton Oliver (or "RPO" to his friends and adherents; the link is to a search index because the revilo-oliver.com main page is currently hacked). In one article, "Marxmanship in Dallas" published in the February 1964 JBS periodical American Opinion (and written around Christmas, 1963), he haughtily notes in reference to the assassination that "obviously, something went wrong in Dallas — in our favor, this time," which he goes on to characterize as

... an act of violence both deplorable and ominous — as ominous as the violence excited by the infamous Martin Luther King and other criminals engaged in inciting race war with the approval and even, it is said, the

active co-operation of the White House

. It was as deplorable and ominous as the violence of the uniformed goons (protected by reluctant and ashamed soldiers) whom Kennedy,

in open violation of the American Constitution

, sent into Oxford, Mississippi, to kick into submission American citizens, whom the late Mr. Kennedy had come to regard as his livestock.

Such lawlessness, regardless of the identity of the perpetrators or their professed motives, is as alarming as the outbreak of a fire in a house, and if not speedily extinguished, will destroy the whole social order.

[emphases added]

And such was the threat of John Fitzgerald Kennedy as President, whose loss to the world was not to be mourned:

Rational men will understand that, far from sobbing over the deceased or lying to placate his vengeful ghost, it behooves us to speak of him with complete candor and historical objectivity. Jack was not sanctified by a bullet.

The defunct Kennedy is the John F. Kennedy who procured his election by peddling boob-bait to the suckers, including a cynical pledge to destroy the Communist base in Cuba. He is the John F. Kennedy with whose blessing and support the Central Intelligence Agency staged a fake "invasion" of Cuba designed to strengthen our mortal enemies there and to disgrace us — disgrace us not only by ignominious failure, but by the inhuman crime of having lured brave men into a trap and sent them to suffering and death. He is the John F. Kennedy who, in close collaboration with Khrushchev, staged the phony "embargo" that was improvised both to befuddle the suckers on election day in 1962 and to provide for several months a cover for the steady and rapid transfer of Soviet troops and Soviet weapons to Cuba for eventual use against us. He is the John F. Kennedy who installed and maintained in power the unspeakable Yarmolinsky-McNamara gang in the Pentagon to demoralize and subvert our armed forces and to sabotage our military installations and equipment. He is the John F. Kennedy who, by shameless intimidation, bribery, and blackmail, induced weaklings in Congress to approve treasonable acts designed to disarm us and to make us the helpless prey of the affiliated criminals and savages of the "United Nations."

I have mentioned but a few of the hundred reasons why we shall never forget John F. Kennedy. So long as their are Americans, his memory will be cherished with execration and loathing. If the United States is saved by the desperate exertions of patriots, we may have a future of true greatness and glory — but we will never forget how near we were to total destruction in the year 1963. And if the international vermin succeed in completing their occupation of our country, Americans will remember Kennedy while they live, and will curse him as they face the firing squads or toil in brutish degradation that leaves no hope for anything but a speedy death.

"We will never forget how near we were to total destruction in the year 1963," he said, a destruction apparently circumvented primarily if not solely by the death of JFK. What "informed and loyal American" - what person just like you and me and the rest of us - would not consider it an honor to remove such a pestilence from the highest office of the land, that with the most influence and power over how our country moved ahead or if it even survived - if we even survived! - who aspired, it seemed to some, to destroy all that is "America" and "American?"

His re-election - which all seem to agree was in the offing - would have guaranteed it. All would be lost - our world today probably unrecognizable - unless RPO's "outbreak of a fire in a house" was in fact "speedily extinguished."

As I said: it is possible that "all of America" was the chief beneficiary. at least in the minds of those who perforce were able to plan and carry out the execution of the President, who may have been nothing less than patriots for whom the ends justified the means. As RPO also noted in another context, "there were enough honest and patriotic men on [the Dallas] police force" to identify and arrest Oswald (tho' "it required a gunman from outside to do the job" of killing him!).

Perhaps the final quoted paragraph above sums it up best as RPO notes that the US would in the end be well served if it survives now as a result of the "desperate exertions of patriots," whom he has already defined and identified with as informed and loyal Americans, honest and patriotic men who will, he said, "so long as there are Americans," carry JFK's memory "in execration and loathing" (let none say that RPO's speech was anything less than picturesque!). He defines Americans and patriots; is he saying also that their "desperate exertions" - as much as they hated shooting the SOB, he needed killing and someone had to do it - resulted directly in JFK's death?

If such people were in fact the perpetrators, how extremely fortuitous for "honest and patriotic men," those "informed and loyal Americans," those misnomered "right-wing extremists" to have a "Communist" to blame for killing the "Communist" President, the killer in turn being murdered by yet another "Communist" night-club owner cum "gunman from outside!" Talk about pervasive!

The question is: is it persuasive?!? Or is it merely a case of a strong offense ...?

Edited May 21, 2007 by Duke Lane

[Antti Hynonen]

Tosh Plumlee can speak for himself. I don't think it is appropriate to accuse one member for the departure from the Forum of another. Please focus on discussing the topic at hand, and not unrelated items. Behavioral and administrative issues and problems can be discussed via PM's or other communication (report posts) with moderators.

Thank you.

[John Dolva]

Really excellent summary IMO, Duke.

Further, (IMO): In reading RPO's artice one notes that the very FIRST thing he sets about to do is to set the stage for what follows in his writings, and this is verbalising in an academic tone a justification for it.

What I mean by this is that not only did he recognise that such ammunition was necessary for those who choose to follow his notions, but also he placed himself as a leading thinker, which serves a purpose of others not having to think, but rather feel the justification. Just accept the premise, and the rest is easy to assimilate. Following this non-sense, having justified the demolition of the 'Kennedy Myth', he then flows smoothly into the demolition, and then into the formation of a number of threads that have partly consumed the research community since then. He and others like him 'set the agenda'. One needs only (for oneself) see through the initial few pages to know what is to come.

As such his (and the writings of his compatriots like Ned Touchstone and Dan Smoo et al) contribution is easily put in context and applying a 'negative template' to it much can be understood.

Edited May 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas Graves]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

______________________________

Excellent point, Ron.

Too bad Ms Bee harassed him to the point of quiting The Forum....

--Thomas

______________________________

Ah but TomASS, you fill in so well for your hero, it's almost as though he speaks through you...

Heckling by proxy.

Covert even in his absence.

Skulking around removing his own posts so no one can see for themselves if he contradicted himself every time his fingers touched the keyboard. Then playing the martyr, mean girl kicked e-sand in his e-face and chased him from his e-sandbox...

Hey! Since you speak for ToSH you can go back into all his scrubbed posts and painstakingly reconstruct them

(you MUST have them memorized given that you live vicariously through him) so that people can see and judge for

themselves if he was e-bullied from the forum or if he fled after he repeatedly e-tripping himself up on his own e-words,

hoisted on his own e-tard as it were, and someone pointed it out.

How convenient that he scrubbed his posts squeaky clean before his deputy launched CIA Project: Heckle JFK Assassination Researcher, making it impossible for open-minded people to see the truth. How very very like the CIA that is to cover-up

the facts, and even have a little ongoing propaganda campaign. Ahh, just like old times.

So TomASS, since yoU now speak for ToSH, you should be able to explain why yoU (i.e., ToSH) felt it necessary to take the time to scrub all youR (i.e., hIS) posts from the site before yOu skulked off into the covert abyss. Why would an upstanding sincere truthful well-intentioned, not to mention martyred, guyS like you'SE need to hide what you'SE said?

Do tell...

_____________________________

Excellent work, Ms. Bee!!!,

Bump a bagel....

--ThomASS

_____________________________

[Myra Bronstein]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

______________________________

Excellent point, Ron.

Too bad Ms Bee harassed him to the point of quiting The Forum....

--Thomas

______________________________

Ah but TomASS, you fill in so well for your hero, it's almost as though he speaks through you...

Heckling by proxy.

Covert even in his absence.

Skulking around removing his own posts so no one can see for themselves if he contradicted himself every time his fingers touched the keyboard. Then playing the martyr, mean girl kicked e-sand in his e-face and chased him from his e-sandbox...

Hey! Since you speak for ToSH you can go back into all his scrubbed posts and painstakingly reconstruct them

(you MUST have them memorized given that you live vicariously through him) so that people can see and judge for

themselves if he was e-bullied from the forum or if he fled after he repeatedly e-tripping himself up on his own e-words,

hoisted on his own e-tard as it were, and someone pointed it out.

How convenient that he scrubbed his posts squeaky clean before his deputy launched CIA Project: Heckle JFK Assassination Researcher, making it impossible for open-minded people to see the truth. How very very like the CIA that is to cover-up

the facts, and even have a little ongoing propaganda campaign. Ahh, just like old times.

So TomASS, since yoU now speak for ToSH, you should be able to explain why yoU (i.e., ToSH) felt it necessary to take the time to scrub all youR (i.e., hIS) posts from the site before yOu skulked off into the covert abyss. Why would an upstanding sincere truthful well-intentioned, not to mention martyred, guyS like you'SE need to hide what you'SE said?

Do tell...

_____________________________

Excellent work, Ms. Bee!!!,

Bump a bagel....

--ThomASS

_____________________________

And the world awaits your explanation.

Instead of just heckling threads, contribute to the discourse.

Why would an upstanding sincere truthful well-intentioned, not to mention martyred, guyS like you'SE need to delete all posts to hide what you'SE said?

Edify...

[John Dolva]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

I remember that post.(the southern side of dealey plaza topic) It arose from a question of mine due to a McIntyre photo anomaly*. (One can see the WC Hoffman photos confirming that an elevated position was available.) It was important for other reasons as well. I submit that anyone who has tried to cross such an elevated rail bed of irregular rubble will know that the easiest way is to do so is at a diagonal. This helps to place the shooter in photographs, as the easy direct route from the suggested shooting position to the parking area on the other side is not a straight line but (combined with the switching tracks) rather a diagonal followed by a left turn in order to round the far balustrade. Tosh confirmed this. This may explain (albeit very suggestive, a matter of a few pixels) a person appearing to cross in a few of the Wiegman frames and the McIntyre photo.

EDIT:: *the anomaly being a person, that if it was a person, (apparently carrying a rifle) in the McIntyre photo, then to be where he/she was would have to be floating a number of feet above the base ground of the overpass. Tosh stating that the tracks were raised and then looking for and finding confimation for it in other photos helped me to take Tosh more seriously as at by that point I was 'on the fence'. Later photos posted by Robin demolished the problem of the handrail that led many to discount Tosh who said there was no such handrail. Indeed, again he was right.

Edited May 21, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas Graves]

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

I remember that post.(the southern side of dealey plaza topic) It arose from a question of mine due to a McIntyre photo anomaly*. (One can see the WC Hoffman photos confirming that an elevated position was available.) It was important for other reasons as well. I submit that anyone who has tried to cross such an elevated rail bed of irregular rubble will know that the easiest way is to do so is at a diagonal. This helps to place the shooter in photographs, as the easy direct route from the suggested shooting position to the parking area on the other side is not a straight line but (combined with the switching tracks) rather a diagonal followed by a left turn in order to round the far balustrade. Tosh confirmed this. This may explain (albeit very suggestive, a matter of a few pixels) a person appearing to cross in a few of the Wiegman frames and the McIntyre photo.

EDIT:: *the anomaly being a person, that if it was a person, (apparently carrying a rifle) in the McIntyre photo, then to be where he/she was would have to be floating a number of feet above the base ground of the overpass. Tosh stating that the tracks were raised and then looking for and finding confimation for it in other photos helped me to take Tosh more seriously as at by that point I was 'on the fence'. Later photos posted by Robin demolished the problem of the handrail that led many to discount Tosh who said there was no such handrail. Indeed, again he was right.

_______________________________

Thanks guys,

Excellent posts.

--Thomas

_______________________________

[Peter McGuire]

"Another Colonel, the Frenchman Bastien Thiry, attempted in 1962 to avenge the honor of the French Army by assassinating General De Gaulle. He set up an ambush using submachine guns at an intersection in the suburbs of Paris one evening when the General's car was due to pass on the way to the airport. The car, an ordinary Citroen, was going about 40 miles an hour. On a signal from the Colonel (a brandished newspaper), the gunmen fired more than 100 rounds, but neither the General nor his wife nor the driver nor the security agent accompanying them was hit. The tires were shot out, but the driver accelerated immediately, and the General disappeared over the horizon."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell15.html

I'll just bet the perps were well aware of the reason the De Gaulle assassination failed, and insured that wouldn't happen in the Kennedy assassination. It may have even been the same gang.

"The President's car was a Lincoln with a souped-up engine specially designed for rapid accelerations,..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell14.html

"The first bullet came from no. 1 and struck the President in the throat. The second apparently came from no. 4 and hit the President in the back. No. 3 hit Connally, and no. 2's bullet went through a traffic sign between him and the car. Then, as Young blood covered Johnson and spectators began to scream, there was a pause. Four seconds after they opened fire, the gunmen must have been dumbfounded. When the first shot strangled the President, no one moved. At the sound of the second, Governor Connally turned around and was wounded, but the driver still didn't budge, and Kellerman barely turned his head. The final shots awakened the agents in the back-up car, but Kellerman was still lost in his dreams, and Greer failed to react even to the whine of Halfback's siren. Four shots had been fired, and the car was still moving at the same speed. Despite the careful preparations and the skillful marksmanship, not only was the President alive, but he was not mortally wounded. His life depended literally on Greer's reflexes,..."

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell18.html

Whether the assassination of JFK was carried out by the same people as those who tried to get De Gaulle is an interesting question, but regardless of the answer one thing is almost certain, imo--the plotters who killed JFK learned valuable lessons from the De Gaulle incident. I agree the major thing they learned was that, above all, the driver must be nobbled.

Greer's lethargy was no stroke of luck for the plotters, it was planned that way. An alert driver could have ruined the whole plan for them.

Don't know how they did it, other than to include Greer in the plot--very risky but how else could they depend on his lethargic performance?

It seems far more risky for the plotters to merely take a punt that the driver will obligingly react so slowly. I read somewhere that he disliked JFK but I know little about his personal background.

That is my feeling too , Mark. That for some reason Greer simply didn't like Kennedy. The comments by his son that JFK was Catholic and Greer was Protestant don't exactly lead me to believe that Greer was very fond of Kennedy and he passed that feeling onto his son. Attempts here to explain away Greer's actions have failed , and the truth of the matter is very ugly.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Peter McGuire

[Charles Black]

If I may, I will return to Mr. Greer, in an attempt to restrict the "growing number of conspirators" which no doubt will soon include J. W. Booth.

Just my opinion, but another thread has already lost its meaning and purpose.

My last post on this thread will mention only two aspects concerning Mr. Greer. The first is that whether he felt right or wrong in what his actions were, as a 54 year old who could not "replace"his job", he made statements that protected that job. That should seem far fetched to no one.

The other point, which has been chosen to be ignored is: Of course Greer saw persons on the overpass....they were THERE ! Of course he would have thought that this was an ideal place for ambushers! Of course he could not turn or go backward! Of course he did not want to drive further into an ambush until ordered by Kellerman to "go"!

I don't know much about secret service procedure, but military procedure would have "instincted" him not to proceed blindly toward an enemy of unknown strength, that obviously occupied the high ground, when his primary mission was to protect his commander .

You may debate this for forty years, but if you release from your mind this "growing" number of conspirators, and look at things with a lille less intellect and over imagination, the simplicity of the entire conspiracy is a work of art.

It is the effort to overdefine it that has led to our repeated failures. Many things are simply "as they first seem", and not at all complicated until we make them so!

Charles Black

P.S.

I would like to add, only for posterity purposes, that Mr. Greer's "advanced age" has been much over emphasized. He was only 8 years older than JFK. He was of an age that he could have been an older brother!

Edited May 21, 2007 by Charles Black

[Ron Ecker]

From Gary Mack:

"The train tracks are the same height today as they were in 1963. The tracks follow the lay of the land and they haven't been raised or lowered at all, as confirmed by the aerial photos of Dealey Plaza and the underpass taken that weekend."

[Duke Lane]

Really excellent summary IMO, Duke.

I decided to place this in its own topic - "The Patriotic Assassination." Click here or on the "snap-back" arrow above to view it in a new window.

[John Dolva]

Ron

Tosh Plumlee once posted something that I had been totally unaware of, which was that the train tracks in 1963 were on an elevation of about 4 feet above the floor of the overpass. If true, this would also have helped any shooter crouching behind the slanting wall at the south end from being seen by the officer or anyone else at the northwest end, even with no train passing.

John

I remember that post.(the southern side of dealey plaza topic) It arose from a question of mine due to a McIntyre photo anomaly*. (One can see the WC Hoffman photos confirming that an elevated position was available.) It was important for other reasons as well. I submit that anyone who has tried to cross such an elevated rail bed of irregular rubble will know that the easiest way is to do so is at a diagonal. This helps to place the shooter in photographs, as the easy direct route from the suggested shooting position to the parking area on the other side is not a straight line but (combined with the switching tracks) rather a diagonal followed by a left turn in order to round the far balustrade. Tosh confirmed this. This may explain (albeit very suggestive, a matter of a few pixels) a person appearing to cross in a few of the Wiegman frames and the McIntyre photo.

EDIT:: *the anomaly being a person, that if it was a person, (apparently carrying a rifle) in the McIntyre photo, then to be where he/she was would have to be floating a number of feet above the base ground of the overpass. Tosh stating that the tracks were raised and then looking for and finding confimation for it in other photos helped me to take Tosh more seriously as at by that point I was 'on the fence'. Later photos posted by Robin demolished the problem of the handrail that led many to discount Tosh who said there was no such handrail. Indeed, again he was right.

From Gary Mack:

"The train tracks are the same height today as they were in 1963. The tracks follow the lay of the land and they haven't been raised or lowered at all, as confirmed by the aerial photos of Dealey Plaza and the underpass taken that weekend."

I'd like to see these photo's, Gary. What is available is for example Altgens8 which shows one of the people standing considerably higher up than the others on the overpass. Also in WC exhibits there is a photo of Hoffman (I believe) that is taken from behind and above looking over the Plaza, indicating from a raised position. The aerials I've seen are inconclusive.

Edited May 22, 2007 by John Dolva