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VIDEO: Was There a Shot from the Drains ?


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a look at the theory that the head shot came from a sewer drain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wVpRSrRjSo

________________________________

Taking into consideration the horizontal angle and vertical declination of JFK's head at the time of the fatal shot (as shown in Z-313 and Moorman's photo, etc), and taking into consideration the medical evidence as put forth in Groden's DVD "JFK: The Case For Conspiracy," I can't imagine that the front to back shot that laid open the whitish "flap" of JFK's skull so visible to us on the Z-film actually came from behind the North Grassy Knoll fence, whether it was hypothetically from 6.25327 or 15 or 20 or 30 or 34.3183625 feet from the "corner." A nearly simultaneous shot from there I can accept, but the medical evidence would seem to indicate that the first of the fatal shots came from the direction of either the south knoll, the overpass, or the storm drain....

Comments?

--Thomas

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Tom, you raise a real good question here about the head shot.

First let me say that I am convinced that the first shot was fired from the sewer on the south side of Elm, went through the windshield, nicked JFK's tie and entered his throat. I believe that it did not exit and that Kennedy's actions in Z221-237 indicate a reaction to an airway obstruction, not Thorburn's.

With regard to this first shot also, it is my opinion that what the witnesses described as a "firecracker" was in fact the sound of the the bullet piercing the windshield. The sound waves from that piercing travelled back to the buildings on Houston St and created an echo which had some of the earwitnesses (even some of the Secret Service) believing that the sound had originated at the intersection of Houston and Elm.

Again, this is only my opinion.

Next, let me say that there's something that bothers me about the position of Kennedy's head in Z-312 and its relation to an entry wound that was described by the Dallas doctors at the front-right corner of the President's head "at the hairline", a wound that was covered over on the autopsy photographs. It was a shot that probably also made the large rear exit wound. When I draw a straight line though these alleged wound locations, this is what I get:

From that position, I find it difficult to locate a possible source for these wounds without the bullet hitting Mrs. Kennedy in the head. It would seem that if this shot was fired at Z313, it would have to have been fired at point blank range, that is, close enough NOT to hit Mrs. Kennedy, but to hit the President.

Some of the witnesses claimed that the head shot sounded like it came from "inside the car".

The question would be, how reliable is the Zapruder film ? Why does it not show an exit wound in the back of the President's head ? Why does it not show the back of the President's head coming off, as the eyewitnesses described ? And if the head wound we see in this video is not representative of the true head wound that Kennedy received, what else is misrepresented in this video ?

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a look at the theory that the head shot came from a sewer drain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wVpRSrRjSo

________________________________

Taking into consideration the horizontal angle and vertical declination of JFK's head at the time of the fatal shot (as shown in Z-313 and Moorman's photo, etc), and taking into consideration the medical evidence (as put forth in GRODEN'S DVD "JFK: THE CASE FOR CONSPIRACY," etc), I can't imagine that the front to back shot that apparently entered the front of JFK's skull on the right side of his head near the hairline at Z-313 and which laid open the the large whitish "flap" of JFK's skull so visible to us on the Z-film and which, according to the Parkland doctors and nurses and technicians, blew out a baseball-sized exit-wound hole in the (right-rear) occipital-parietal part of his skull actually came from behind the North Grassy Knoll fence, be it standing on Duncan's 6-foot ladder 12.25 or 16.222 or 20.0104 or 30.11255 or 34.31843893 feet from "The Corner," simply because a shot from "there" would be too high up and way too much from the side, according to the medical evidence. A nearly-simultaneous "hit" from the rear I can accept, but the medical and photographic evidence would seem to indicate that the first of the fatal shots came either from the west-south-west junction of the "south knoll" with the overpass (as Tosh Plumlee indicated), the overpass itself, the "sewer drain," or the mysterious Mr. Greer....

Comments please? John Dolva? Lee Forman? "Ashmolean" Gray? Robin Unger? Bernice? Eugene? Jack "Go Froggies!" White? Anyone? Anyone 'tall?

--Thomas

P.S. Dunkin an' perfesser Skul, eat all-- I a-nows I'z plum stupud butt I want's yous to nose I ain't sayin' they warn't no shootrists standin' 16.83927 feet behind that there fince and a-standin' on your's six feet laddar. I just a-sayin' that tey wuz pizz-pore shots an dunn a-misted...

______________________

Edited and a-bump-a-row-kneed..... :hotorwot

______________________

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tom, you raise a real good question here about the head shot.

First let me say that I am convinced that the first shot was fired from the sewer on the south side of Elm, went through the windshield, nicked JFK's tie and entered his throat. ...

You mean the North side of Elm Gil? I think the video you show focuses on a storm drain North of Elm, unless I'm really turned around.

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Tom, you raise a real good question here about the head shot.

First let me say that I am convinced that the first shot was fired from the sewer on the south side of Elm, went through the windshield, nicked JFK's tie and entered his throat. I believe that it did not exit and that Kennedy's actions in Z221-237 indicate a reaction to an airway obstruction, not Thorburn's.

With regard to this first shot also, it is my opinion that what the witnesses described as a "firecracker" was in fact the sound of the the bullet piercing the windshield. The sound waves from that piercing travelled back to the buildings on Houston St and created an echo which had some of the earwitnesses (even some of the Secret Service) believing that the sound had originated at the intersection of Houston and Elm.

Again, this is only my opinion.

Next, let me say that there's something that bothers me about the position of Kennedy's head in Z-312 and its relation to an entry wound that was described by the Dallas doctors at the front-right corner of the President's head "at the hairline", a wound that was covered over on the autopsy photographs. It was a shot that probably also made the large rear exit wound. When I draw a straight line though these alleged wound locations, this is what I get:

From that position, I find it difficult to locate a possible source for these wounds without the bullet hitting Mrs. Kennedy in the head. It would seem that if this shot was fired at Z313, it would have to have been fired at point blank range, that is, close enough NOT to hit Mrs. Kennedy, but to hit the President.

Some of the witnesses claimed that the head shot sounded like it came from "inside the car".

The question would be, how reliable is the Zapruder film ? Why does it not show an exit wound in the back of the President's head ? Why does it not show the back of the President's head coming off, as the eyewitnesses described ? And if the head wound we see in this video is not representative of the true head wound that Kennedy received, what else is misrepresented in this video ?

The trajectory of the head shot has never made sense to me either. It seems like an entry point at the right temple should result in an exit point at the left rear ("occipital" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Human_s...28bones%29.svg) instead of the right rear. This would be true even if President Kennedy was faced straight ahead, but at that point I think he was facing slightly to the left.

I suppose the path thru the head could have been altered by another bullet colliding within the skull at the same time. There's been a lot of discussion about this possibility.

Could the fact that it was a frangible/exploding bullet mean that there was insufficient mass for it to pass all the way through the head and instead disintegrated part way thru and blew out the right rear instead of the left rear?

It's hard to discuss this without a map & diagram.

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...

Some of the witnesses claimed that the head shot sounded like it came from "inside the car".

...

I wouldn't rule that out with the likes of Greer and Kellerman.

...

The question would be, how reliable is the Zapruder film ? Why does it not show an exit wound in the back of the President's head ? Why does it not show the back of the President's head coming off, as the eyewitnesses described ? And if the head wound we see in this video is not representative of the true head wound that Kennedy received, what else is misrepresented in this video ?

FWIW I consider the Z-film totally unreliable. I think Time-Life had it for too long to trust it, and trying to make forensic sense of it can only cause confusion. Plus, as you noted Gil, it does not show the right rear of the head exploding as everyone at Parkland described, it shows the right front opening up like a trap door. I assume there were many alterations made for many reasons, and altering the head wound to match the altered autopsy photo is one reason.

This film would never be admissible in court what with the fractured chain of possession. Almost nothing we have to work with would be admissible for the same reason.

One thing that does confuse me about the Z-film though is that I've heard that Robert Groden got a first generation copy. Is that true? If so: why didn't we see it before Time-Life released it? And why don't we see different versions (one altered and one not)?

When Groden showed it for the first time on TV on Geraldo, was it supposedly his own first generation copy or a Time-Life copy?

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Some of the witnesses claimed that the head shot sounded like it came from "inside the car".

Gil,

Indulge the hypothesis:

A shot from the front left of the car to the right rear would likely produce a left temple entrance and a right rear exit; it would blast brain matter to the rear; and, depending on both the handgun used and the precise location of the limousine, could well produce an ejected casing on the grassy south curb of Elm. Secret Service responsibility for the shooting would furnish the most powerful motive of all for the production of a false film record of the killing.

Any evidence for all or any of these elements of the hypothesis?

Paul

PS Many thanks for the series of vids - enjoyed them.

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a look at the theory that the head shot came from a sewer drain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wVpRSrRjSo

________________________________

Taking into consideration the horizontal angle and vertical declination of JFK's head at the time of the fatal shot (as shown in Z-313 and Moorman's photo, etc), and taking into consideration the medical evidence (as put forth in GRODEN'S DVD "JFK: THE CASE FOR CONSPIRACY," etc), I can't imagine that the front to back shot that apparently entered the front of JFK's skull on the right side of his head near the hairline at Z-313 and which laid open the the large whitish "flap" of JFK's skull so visible to us on the Z-film and which blew out a baseball-sized exit-wound hole in the (right-rear) occipital-parietal part of his skull actually came from behind the North Grassy Knoll fence, be it standing on Duncan's 6-foot ladder 12.25 or 16.222 or 20.0104 or 30.11255 or 34.31843893 feet from "The Corner," simply because a shot from "there" would be too high up and way too much from the side, according to the medical evidence. A nearly-simultaneous "hit" from the rear I can accept, but the medical and photographic evidence would seem to indicate that the first of the fatal shots came either from the west-south-west junction of the "south knoll" with the overpass (as Tosh Plumlee indicated), the overpass itself, the "sewer drain," or the mysterious Mr. Greer....

Comments please? John Dolva? Lee Forman? "Ashmolean" Gray? Robin Unger? Bernice? Eugene? Jack "Go Froggies!" White? Anyone? Anyone 'tall?

--Thomas

P.S. Dunkin an' perfesser Skul, eat all-- I a-nows I'z plum stupud butt I want's yous to a'knose I ain't sayin' they warn't no shootrists behind that there fince a-standin' on your's six feet laddar. I just a-sayin' that tey wuz pizz-pore shots an dunn a-misted... (laffin' aut lowd)

______________________

Edited and a-bump-a-row-kneed..... :hotorwot

______________________

_____________

Sorry, I must a maid a misteak.....

_____________

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I think this study makes it clear that the fatal head shot could not have come from the north Elm storm drain:

http://www.jfklancer.com/drain1.html

A shot from the storm drain at the west end of the overpass would be possible (assuming a moveable slat in the fence, as there were no slats missing through which to shoot), but IMO a shot from the south knoll is most likely.

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...

Some of the witnesses claimed that the head shot sounded like it came from "inside the car".

...

I wouldn't rule that out with the likes of Greer and Kellerman.

...

The question would be, how reliable is the Zapruder film ? Why does it not show an exit wound in the back of the President's head ? Why does it not show the back of the President's head coming off, as the eyewitnesses described ? And if the head wound we see in this video is not representative of the true head wound that Kennedy received, what else is misrepresented in this video ?

FWIW I consider the Z-film totally unreliable. I think Time-Life had it for too long to trust it, and trying to make forensic sense of it can only cause confusion. Plus, as you noted Gil, it does not show the right rear of the head exploding as everyone at Parkland described, it shows the right front opening up like a trap door. I assume there were many alterations made for many reasons, and altering the head wound to match the altered autopsy photo is one reason.

This film would never be admissible in court what with the fractured chain of possession. Almost nothing we have to work with would be admissible for the same reason.

One thing that does confuse me about the Z-film though is that I've heard that Robert Groden got a first generation copy. Is that true? If so: why didn't we see it before Time-Life released it? And why don't we see different versions (one altered and one not)?

When Groden showed it for the first time on TV on Geraldo, was it supposedly his own first generation copy or a Time-Life copy?

Myra,

On Groden's "Assassination Films II" DVD, there is a copy of the Z film with no splices, which Groden says was made before Time/Life damaged it.

The difference is the 2 splices.

chris

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No Myra, you're correct. The video shows the drains on the north side of Elm, the same side as the knoll.

I believe, however, that the first shot, the shot through the windshield, came from one of the drains on the south side of Elm, across from the knoll.

If....there were shooters in the sewer drains, it would explain why the SS removed the motorcycle escorts from the side of JFK's car. It would also explain why they removed the military man from the front seat. They were trying to get them out of the line of fire.

I'm having a problem reconciling the President's head position in Z312 with the description of the head wounds as described by the Dallas doctors. The trajectory doesn't work. The two bullets-colliding-in-the-head is a good theory, but I need something that explains the entry wound in the front of the head.

The trajectory seems to be coming out of the floorboard of the car.

I'm hoping that someone can give me an explanation that will support the trajectory and change this crazy idea in my head that John Connally killed President Kennedy and the reason why his coat was cleaned was to remove any trace of gunpowder on it.

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Paul I would agree that the film was out of the public's eye for 12 years before Groden showed it on Geraldo. I would also agree that in that time, there was ample opportunity to alter the film to support the government's position.

When the shots rang out on Elm St, Johnson escaped prison. The CIA was safe. Hoover was eventually made Director of the FBI for life. Military contractors made millions on the Vietnam War.

Anti-trust indictments dropped. So did criminal indictments of organized crime figures.

No more whoring on the road or in the White House. The SS morale went up.

Everything went back to "normal".

And the government stopped being "for the people".

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...

Some of the witnesses claimed that the head shot sounded like it came from "inside the car".

...

I wouldn't rule that out with the likes of Greer and Kellerman.

...

The question would be, how reliable is the Zapruder film ? Why does it not show an exit wound in the back of the President's head ? Why does it not show the back of the President's head coming off, as the eyewitnesses described ? And if the head wound we see in this video is not representative of the true head wound that Kennedy received, what else is misrepresented in this video ?

FWIW I consider the Z-film totally unreliable. I think Time-Life had it for too long to trust it, and trying to make forensic sense of it can only cause confusion. Plus, as you noted Gil, it does not show the right rear of the head exploding as everyone at Parkland described, it shows the right front opening up like a trap door. I assume there were many alterations made for many reasons, and altering the head wound to match the altered autopsy photo is one reason.

This film would never be admissible in court what with the fractured chain of possession. Almost nothing we have to work with would be admissible for the same reason.

One thing that does confuse me about the Z-film though is that I've heard that Robert Groden got a first generation copy. Is that true? If so: why didn't we see it before Time-Life released it? And why don't we see different versions (one altered and one not)?

When Groden showed it for the first time on TV on Geraldo, was it supposedly his own first generation copy or a Time-Life copy?

Myra,

On Groden's "Assassination Films II" DVD, there is a copy of the Z film with no splices, which Groden says was made before Time/Life damaged it.

The difference is the 2 splices.

chris

Thank you Chris.

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a look at the theory that the head shot came from a sewer drain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wVpRSrRjSo

________________________________

Taking into consideration the horizontal angle and vertical declination of JFK's head at the time of the fatal shot (as shown in Z-313 and Moorman's photo, etc), and taking into consideration the medical evidence (as put forth in GRODEN'S DVD "JFK: THE CASE FOR CONSPIRACY," etc), I can't imagine that the front to back shot that apparently entered the front of JFK's skull on the right side of his head near the hairline at Z-313 and which laid open the the large whitish "flap" of JFK's skull so visible to us on the Z-film and which, according to the Parkland doctors and nurses and technicians, blew out a baseball-sized exit-wound hole in the (right-rear) occipital-parietal part of his skull actually came from behind the North Grassy Knoll fence, be it standing on Duncan's 6-foot ladder 12.25 or 16.222 or 20.0104 or 30.11255 or 34.31843893 feet from "The Corner," simply because a shot from "there" would be too high up and way too much from the side, according to the medical and photographic evidence. A nearly-simultaneous "hit" from the rear I can accept, but the medical and photographic evidence would seem to indicate that the first of the fatal shots came either from the west-south-west junction of the "south knoll" with the overpass (as Tosh Plumlee indicated), the overpass itself, the "sewer drain," or the mysterious Mr. Greer....

Comments please? John Dolva? Lee Forman? "Ashmolean" Gray? Robin Unger? Bernice? Eugene? Jack "Go Froggies!" White? Anyone? Anyone 'tall?

--Thomas

P.S. Dunkin an' perfesser Skul, eat all-- I a-nows I'z plum stupud butt I want's yous to nose I ain't sayin' they warn't no shootrists standin' appomatixly 16.83927 feet behind that there fince and a-standin' on your's six feet laddar. I just a-sayin' that tey wuz pizz-pore shots an mose probaby dunn a-misted...

______________________

Edited and a-bump-a-row-kneed..... ;)

______________________

--------------

ski bump

--------------

Edited by Thomas Graves
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