Paul Rigby Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 In most assassinations there is NO attempt to investigate Israel as a serious suspect. The murder of Hariri in The Lebanon is a classic case in point. Qui bono? Israel, of course! To which one might add the curious case of Alan Johnston, the disappeared BBC correspondent in Gaza. Now who could possibly want to drive all foreign correspondents out of that particular area? If the group responsible turns out to be Al Qaida-linked, we'll know for sure its a pseudo-gang operation; and a prelude to something nasty for the people of the area. Paul On cue, Gaza in turmoil; and the media again embroiled/targeted. Gaza erupts in renewed violence Last Updated: Wednesday, 16 May 2007, 18:14 GMT 19:14 UK “Staff in the building that houses most of Gaza's broadcasters were forced to seek refuge for several hours in one room as Fatah gunmen traded gunfire with Hamas militants on the ground.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6663141.stm One could be forgiven for concluding that media focus upon what happens next is not wanted. Let's hope this isn't the prelude to another Sabra and Shatila. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Walker Posted May 17, 2007 Author Share Posted May 17, 2007 (edited) In most assassinations there is NO attempt to investigate Israel as a serious suspect. The murder of Hariri in The Lebanon is a classic case in point. Qui bono? Israel, of course! To which one might add the curious case of Alan Johnston, the disappeared BBC correspondent in Gaza. Now who could possibly want to drive all foreign correspondents out of that particular area? If the group responsible turns out to be Al Qaida-linked, we'll know for sure its a pseudo-gang operation; and a prelude to something nasty for the people of the area. Paul On cue, Gaza in turmoil; and the media again embroiled/targeted. Gaza erupts in renewed violence Last Updated: Wednesday, 16 May 2007, 18:14 GMT 19:14 UK “Staff in the building that houses most of Gaza's broadcasters were forced to seek refuge for several hours in one room as Fatah gunmen traded gunfire with Hamas militants on the ground.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6663141.stm One could be forgiven for concluding that media focus upon what happens next is not wanted. Let's hope this isn't the prelude to another Sabra and Shatila. A strange thing about Alan Johnston's disappearance is that the Palestinian President has claimed Palestinians know whereabouts of kidnapped BBC man: Abbas The implications of Abbas claiming that are disturbing - whether Johnston has been grabbed by (1) an Israeli hit squad (2) a Palestinian group with utterly insane and counter-productive policies. Edited May 17, 2007 by Sid Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 The implications of Abbas claiming that are disturbing - whether Johnston has been grabbed by (1) an Israeli hit squad (2) a Palestinian group with utterly insane and counter-productive policies. I'm sure Sid knows, but others may not: Hamas was founded by Israeli intel. to attack the secular PLO. This tactic has a long pedigree in the Arab world. British intel. founded the Muslim Brotherhood to attack secular Egyptian nationalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Walker Posted May 17, 2007 Author Share Posted May 17, 2007 (edited) The implications of Abbas claiming that are disturbing - whether Johnston has been grabbed by (1) an Israeli hit squad (2) a Palestinian group with utterly insane and counter-productive policies. I'm sure Sid knows, but others may not: Hamas was founded by Israeli intel. to attack the secular PLO. This tactic has a long pedigree in the Arab world. British intel. founded the Muslim Brotherhood to attack secular Egyptian nationalists. Paul As I understand it, you are correct that Israeli "intelligence" assisted the Muslim Brotherhood and related Islamic groups, including Hamas, especially several decades ago as a counter to secular Arab nationalism. However, I think it would be mistaken to see the current situation in Israel/Palestine in simple terms: Hamas = Israeli asset ; PLO = authentic voice of Paletinians. My gut feeling is that (1) Hamas has never been a clear-cut (100%) Israeli asset (2) Israel has done its level best to infiltrate both organisations (Hamas and the PLO) over the years (3) in neither case has it been wholly successful (4) since Arafat's demise (murder?), Hamas may indeed be a more authentic, less-infiltrated movement for Palestinian rights than the PLO - and was perceived as such by a majority of Palestinians at their last election. At least since Hamas won the elections, I think Israeli influence has been stronger within the PLO, and my concern is that some of its leadership may have cut sordid deals with Israel to maintain their funding and positions. Abbas himself seems to me to cut a rather pathetic figure, beholden to his stingy overseas sponsors and reliant more on the goodwill of his adversaries than the support of his own people. He certainly lacks the moral authority of Yasser Arafat to represent and promote Palestinian interests on the world stage. Edited May 17, 2007 by Sid Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 PaulAs I understand it, you are correct that Israeli "intelligence" assisted the Muslim Brotherhood and related Islamic groups, including Hamas, especially several decades ago as a counter to secular Arab nationalism. However, I think it would be mistaken to see the current situation in Israel/Palestine in simple terms: Hamas = Israeli asset ; PLO = authentic voice of Paletinians. My gut feeling is that (1) Hamas has never been a clear-cut (100%) Israeli asset (2) Israel has done its level best to infiltrate both organisations (Hamas and the PLO) over the years (3) in neither case has it been wholly successful (4) since Arafat's demise (murder?), Hamas may indeed be a more authentic, less-infiltrated movement for Palestinian rights than the PLO - and was perceived as such by a majority of Palestinians at their last election. At least since Hamas won the elections, I think Israeli influence has been stronger within the PLO, and my concern is that some of its leadership may have cut sordid deals with Israel to maintain their funding and positions. Abbas himself seems to me to cut a rather pathetic figure, beholden to his stingy overseas sponsors and reliant more on the goodwill of his adversaries than the support of his own people. He certainly lacks the moral authority of Yasser Arafat to represent and promote Palestinian interests on the world stage. No dissent from any of the above. I think the tactic now is to keep PLO and Hamas fighting - the classic divide and rule, with intermittent pretexts for intervention. I just fear that in this particular context, we may be about to witness something very much more terrible. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Regarding the Nassar murder one has to wonder how much he felt in danger. According to the Globo article his SUV was bulletproof (blindado) if he feared for his life why not stay inside while the gas station attendant changed the tire? It is pretty common for super wealthy Brazilians to get their cars bulletproofed. Also there is no mention in any account of him having bodyguards. If I were him and I could make revelations against Sharon I would have hired some after the Hobeika assassination. Several accounts indicated it was a rear tire that was flat his SUV a Mitsubishi Pajero (also known as a Montiero or Shogun depending on which country it was sold in) has 4 wheel drive. He could have driven to a safer location than the gas station. I couldn’t find any reference to Nassar being part of the SLA or any other militia before the late 80’s let alone 1982 when the massacres took place when he would have been 19 or 20. Hobieka’s ex-head of security as a dentist (see link below) which means he probably would have been a college student at the time. Nasser it turns out was an associate of Hobeika. The latter was the best man the former’s wedding according to a Lebanese newspaper. The article also indicated that he “was the third biggest shareholder in Solidere after Prime Minister Hariri and parliament member Nabil Bustani” and “held $25 million worth” of the company which was confirmed by other sources and reaffirmed in a latter article in the same paper. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk...ment&Click= http://www.meib.org/articles/0203_lb.htm http://www.lebanonwire.com/aa-lebanon/02031107DS.htm http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk...ment&Click= http://www.norskisraelsenter.no/engl/israe...s/kap-25-36.htm Solidere is a big deal “Solidere, Lebanon ’s largest company in terms of market capitalization” www.alikaria.com/Market_infos/page_939701.html “The construction industry [in Lebanon] is dominated by Solidere, one of the largest real estate developers in the Middle East. After the civil war, Solidere was set up by the government to redevelop the country.” http://www.menabusinessguide.com/04_market/166_177.htm “(SOLIDERE), one of the largest real estate developers in the Middle East” www.ameinfo.com/67319.html “Beirut (APD) - The prices of Solidere shares - Lebanon's largest real estate firm - achieved an unprecedented upsurge of about 120% in 2005.” http://www.zawya.com/Story.cfm/sidZAWYA200...s/pagEquities/- Now if the biggest and third biggest shareholders of a company like that are murdered a few years apart one must wonder if #2 had anything to do with it, or perhaps shareholder #4 I couldn’t find any references to Bustani being alive after Nassar’s murder. Hobeika’s ex-head of security mentioned Nassar’s involvement in crimes with his former boss who it seems shook Nassar down a few times. “Mike Nassar paid off the two million United States dollar loan and offered the chalet to Hobeika…Mike Nassar contacted me through one of his « Hit-Team» boys. He wanted me to open a channel for him with Elie Hobeika, by now the Displaced People’s Minister. The greedy and shrewd Hobeika suspected the golden egg hen, but he wanted proof of Nassar’s good will, money. Hobeika sent me to Nassar with a clear message, payment of $25 thousand United States dollars, for the « boy‘s» monthly salary. Nassar paid cash, instantly. I gave the full amount to Hobeika and we never saw a dime. The payments were made for three months. Nassar then decided to travel and gave me his phone numbers in France and Switzerland to pass on to Hobeika. No sooner was he gone than Hobeika flew to met Nassar and when he returned from his trip he told me, « Mike is mine. I want nobody to get to him». As if he were talking about a pet animal or a slave, he succeeded in extracting $10 to $15 million dollars from Nassar.” Being the victim of a shakedown would be motive to kill perpetrator which might have lead Hobeika’s people to suspect the Nassar from a village in southern Lebanon who bought the car that killed their leader was the Nassar from a village in southern Lebanon who fled to Brazil. As for Hobeika it sounds like he had lots of enemies including fellow Maronitese, who were angry at him for switching sides and backing Syria, and Palestinian relatives of victims of Sabra and Shatilla. Also I was unable to find any reference from before he was assassinated or a direct quote shortly there after of him saying he would implicate Sharon. I wonder if Sid or Mark or anybody else can find such a reference. Rather it seems he wanted to clear his name. It would be a bit contradictory to claim he had nothing to do with the massacres but had direct knowledge of Sharon’s participation: NY Times: “A group of Belgian senators who met with Mr. Hobeika this week quoted him as saying HE WAS "TERRIFIED" OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE TRIAL FOR THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IN LEBANON. But he said that his testimony would confirm his own innocence. His death "was a major blow for the case because he is an important witness," Vincent Van Quickenborne, one of the senators, said in a television interview. He said Mr. Hobeika told the delegation that he had documents that would prove his innocence. HE DID NOT SAY HE WOULD ACCUSE MR. SHARON, THE SENATOR SAID” http://www.shockandawe.us/archives/MiddleEast/020125a.htm “Lebanese warlord was key witness in Sharon case 24 JAN 2002 Reuters.com A Belgian senator who met Hobeika on Tuesday said he had repeated his innocence over the Sabra and Shatila massacres. "He told us he was innocent, that he had documents to prove this," senator Vincent Van Quickenborne told Reuters, adding that HOBEIKA DID NOT SAY WHO WAS GUILTY. Born in 1957, HOBEIKA WAS A HATED FIGURE IN MANY LEBANESE POLITICAL CIRCLES, INCLUDING AMONG HIS ONE-TIME ALLIES IN THE CHRISTIAN LEBANESE FORCES who regarded him as a traitor for switching his alliance to their enemy Syria during the 1975-90 Lebanese civil war.” http://web.archive.org/web/20020203051159/...00/N2SOOU6D.HTM “Hobeika had a long career of dispatching his Christian rivals. In 1978, at the tender age of 23, he helped Christian leader Bashir Gemayel get rid of his fellow Christian rivals, leading the forces that slaughtered Tony Franjieh, his wife and child and 25 of his followers.” http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/20...anon/index.html >SNIP> next pg “The Lebanese lawyer for the plaintiffs, Chibli Mallat, said Thursday that Hobeika's death would not affect the trial. "From the point of view of the evidence he had promised to provide, the loss of his testimony is not going to be helpful. Clearly his disappearance coincides with a very harsh campaign by the Israeli prime minister to have the case dismissed." http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/20...index.html?pn=2 “Mr Hobeika, however, said he had "irrefutable proof" of his innocence in the killings. But he was also quoted as saying about Sabra and Shatila: "I was carrying out orders." He said last year that he was willing to testify in legal proceedings in Belgium, where Palestinian survivors of the massacres are trying to secure an indictment for crimes against humanity against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who was defence minister during the Lebanon invasion. 'Hobeika sensed danger' A Belgian senator was quoted by the French news agency AFP as saying that Mr Hobeika had told him earlier this week that he had "revelations" to disclose about the massacres and felt "threatened". According to the senator, Josy Dubie, who asked him why he did not reveal all the facts he knew immediately, Mr Hobeika said: "I am saving them for the trial." “ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1779321.stm “Hobeika, who had held various government posts - including minister for those disabled or made homeless in Lebanon's 15-year civil war - is unlikely to be missed. It would be impossible to count his enemies, said Hazem Saghiyeh, a columnist for the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat. "This guy was born to be killed like that ... He was an adventurer who had no principles. "He started as Phalangist, then turned against them. He was with the Israelis and committed the Sabra-Chatila massacre. Then with the Syrians. It's much easier to speculate that he would die this way than to find who is behind Quickenborne it." Khairallah Khairallah, a Lebanese political analyst in London, said: "He became a burden to all the parties and nobody wanted him alive. "His killing benefits Israel. It also benefits the Lebanese parties which want to say that ... Sabra and Chatila were 100% Israeli, while in fact they were also Lebanese." “ http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,639157,00.html “In July last year, Hobeika said he was ready to submit to the Belgian criminal inquiry into the role of Sharon in the massacre. "I am very interested that the [belgian] trial starts because my innocence is a core issue," he told a news conference.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,638923,00.html One of the two Belgian Senators who spoke with Hobeika 40 hours before his death said specifically, the ex-warlord would NOT implicate Sharon and would testify to clear his name. http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/35288000...uickenborne.ram As to the Alan Johnston kidnapping Hamas and the PLO both seem to be blaming criminal gangs. Dozen of westerners mostly journalist have been kidnapped in Gaza. It sounds to me like a kidnapping gone bad. If it had been engineered by the Israeli’s wanted to intmate the press why not dump his body with signs of torture soon afterwards. His continued disappearance focuses attention on the situaion in Gaza something they presumably want to avoid. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...icle2355964.ece http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/article...3.20.17.00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 (edited) Regarding the Nassar murder one has to wonder how much he felt in danger. According to the Globo article his SUV was bulletproof (blindado) if he feared for his life why not stay inside while the gas station attendant changed the tire? It is pretty common for super wealthy Brazilians to get their cars bulletproofed. Also there is no mention in any account of him having bodyguards. If I were him and I could make revelations against Sharon I would have hired some after the Hobeika assassination. Several accounts indicated it was a rear tire that was flat his SUV a Mitsubishi Pajero (also known as a Montiero or Shogun depending on which country it was sold in) has 4 wheel drive. He could have driven to a safer location than the gas station. I couldn’t find any reference to Nassar being part of the SLA or any other militia before the late 80’s let alone 1982 when the massacres took place when he would have been 19 or 20. Hobieka’s ex-head of security as a dentist (see link below) which means he probably would have been a college student at the time. Nasser it turns out was an associate of Hobeika. The latter was the best man the former’s wedding according to a Lebanese newspaper. The article also indicated that he “was the third biggest shareholder in Solidere after Prime Minister Hariri and parliament member Nabil Bustani” and “held $25 million worth” of the company which was confirmed by other sources and reaffirmed in a latter article in the same paper. http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk...ment&Click= http://www.meib.org/articles/0203_lb.htm http://www.lebanonwire.com/aa-lebanon/02031107DS.htm http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk...ment&Click= http://www.norskisraelsenter.no/engl/israe...s/kap-25-36.htm Solidere is a big deal “Solidere, Lebanon ’s largest company in terms of market capitalization” http://www.alikaria.com/Market_infos/page_939701.html “The construction industry [in Lebanon] is dominated by Solidere, one of the largest real estate developers in the Middle East. After the civil war, Solidere was set up by the government to redevelop the country.” http://www.menabusinessguide.com/04_market/166_177.htm “(SOLIDERE), one of the largest real estate developers in the Middle East” http://www.ameinfo.com/67319.html “Beirut (APD) - The prices of Solidere shares - Lebanon's largest real estate firm - achieved an unprecedented upsurge of about 120% in 2005.” http://www.zawya.com/Story.cfm/sidZAWYA200...s/pagEquities/- Now if the biggest and third biggest shareholders of a company like that are murdered a few years apart one must wonder if #2 had anything to do with it, or perhaps shareholder #4 I couldn’t find any references to Bustani being alive after Nassar’s murder. Hobeika’s ex-head of security mentioned Nassar’s involvement in crimes with his former boss who it seems shook Nassar down a few times. Mike Nassar paid off the two million United States dollar loan and offered the chalet to Hobeika…Mike Nassar contacted me through one of his « Hit-Team» boys. He wanted me to open a channel for him with Elie Hobeika, by now the Displaced People’s Minister. The greedy and shrewd Hobeika suspected the golden egg hen, but he wanted proof of Nassar’s good will, money. Hobeika sent me to Nassar with a clear message, payment of $25 thousand United States dollars, for the « boy‘s» monthly salary. Nassar paid cash, instantly. I gave the full amount to Hobeika and we never saw a dime. The payments were made for three months. Nassar then decided to travel and gave me his phone numbers in France and Switzerland to pass on to Hobeika. No sooner was he gone than Hobeika flew to met Nassar and when he returned from his trip he told me, « Mike is mine. I want nobody to get to him». As if he were talking about a pet animal or a slave, he succeeded in extracting $10 to $15 million dollars from Nassar. Being the victim of a shakedown would be motive to kill perpetrator which might have lead Hobeika’s people to suspect the Nassar from a village in southern Lebanon who bought the car that killed their leader was the Nassar from a village in southern Lebanon who fled to Brazil. As for Hobeika it sounds like he had lots of enemies including fellow Maronitese, who were angry at him for switching sides and backing Syria, and Palestinian relatives of victims of Sabra and Shatilla. Also I was unable to find any reference from before he was assassinated or a direct quote shortly there after of him saying he would implicate Sharon. I wonder if Sid or Mark or anybody else can find such a reference. Rather it seems he wanted to clear his name. It would be a bit contradictory to claim he had nothing to do with the massacres but had direct knowledge of Sharon’s participation: NY Times: “A group of Belgian senators who met with Mr. Hobeika this week quoted him as saying HE WAS "TERRIFIED" OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE TRIAL FOR THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IN LEBANON. But he said that his testimony would confirm his own innocence. His death "was a major blow for the case because he is an important witness," Vincent Van Quickenborne, one of the senators, said in a television interview. He said Mr. Hobeika told the delegation that he had documents that would prove his innocence. HE DID NOT SAY HE WOULD ACCUSE MR. SHARON, THE SENATOR SAID” http://www.shockandawe.us/archives/MiddleEast/020125a.htm “Lebanese warlord was key witness in Sharon case 24 JAN 2002 Reuters.com A Belgian senator who met Hobeika on Tuesday said he had repeated his innocence over the Sabra and Shatila massacres. "He told us he was innocent, that he had documents to prove this," senator Vincent Van Quickenborne told Reuters, adding that HOBEIKA DID NOT SAY WHO WAS GUILTY. Born in 1957, HOBEIKA WAS A HATED FIGURE IN MANY LEBANESE POLITICAL CIRCLES, INCLUDING AMONG HIS ONE-TIME ALLIES IN THE CHRISTIAN LEBANESE FORCES who regarded him as a traitor for switching his alliance to their enemy Syria during the 1975-90 Lebanese civil war.” http://web.archive.org/web/20020203051159/...00/N2SOOU6D.HTM “ Hobeika had a long career of dispatching his Christian rivals. In 1978, at the tender age of 23, he helped Christian leader Bashir Gemayel get rid of his fellow Christian rivals, leading the forces that slaughtered Tony Franjieh, his wife and child and 25 of his followers.” http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/20...anon/index.html >SNIP> next pg “The Lebanese lawyer for the plaintiffs, Chibli Mallat, said Thursday that Hobeika's death would not affect the trial. "From the point of view of the evidence he had promised to provide, the loss of his testimony is not going to be helpful. Clearly his disappearance coincides with a very harsh campaign by the Israeli prime minister to have the case dismissed." http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/20...index.html?pn=2 Mr Hobeika, however, said he had "irrefutable proof" of his innocence in the killings. But he was also quoted as saying about Sabra and Shatila: "I was carrying out orders." He said last year that he was willing to testify in legal proceedings in Belgium, where Palestinian survivors of the massacres are trying to secure an indictment for crimes against humanity against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who was defence minister during the Lebanon invasion. 'Hobeika sensed danger' A Belgian senator was quoted by the French news agency AFP as saying that Mr Hobeika had told him earlier this week that he had "revelations" to disclose about the massacres and felt "threatened". According to the senator, Josy Dubie, who asked him why he did not reveal all the facts he knew immediately, Mr Hobeika said: "I am saving them for the trial." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1779321.stm Hobeika, who had held various government posts - including minister for those disabled or made homeless in Lebanon's 15-year civil war - is unlikely to be missed. It would be impossible to count his enemies, said Hazem Saghiyeh, a columnist for the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat. "This guy was born to be killed like that ... He was an adventurer who had no principles. "He started as Phalangist, then turned against them. He was with the Israelis and committed the Sabra-Chatila massacre. Then with the Syrians. It's much easier to speculate that he would die this way than to find who is behind it." Khairallah Khairallah, a Lebanese political analyst in London, said: "He became a burden to all the parties and nobody wanted him alive. "His killing benefits Israel. It also benefits the Lebanese parties which want to say that ... Sabra and Chatila were 100% Israeli, while in fact they were also Lebanese." http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,639157,00.html “In July last year, Hobeika said he was ready to submit to the Belgian criminal inquiry into the role of Sharon in the massacre. "I am very interested that the [belgian] trial starts because my innocence is a core issue," he told a news conference.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,638923,00.html One of the two Belgian Senators who spoke with Hobeika 40 hours before his death said specifically, the ex-warlord would NOT implicate Sharon and would testify to clear his name. http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/35288000...uickenborne.ram As to the Alan Johnston kidnapping Hamas and the PLO both seem to be blaming criminal gangs. Dozen of westerners mostly journalist have been kidnapped in Gaza. It sounds to me like a kidnapping gone bad. If it had been engineered by the Israeli’s wanted to intmate the press why not dump his body with signs of torture soon afterwards. His continued disappearance focuses attention on the situaion in Gaza something they presumably want to avoid. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle...icle2355964.ece http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/article...3.20.17.00.html Edited May 20, 2007 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) A lot of things have changed and the various perpectives presented here can be dealt with. A few interesting updates. A commemorative anniversary was recently held for Anna Lindh. There are stirrings of a solution to the death of Dag Hammaskjold and there is some stuff on Palme being taken seriously. Polis utreds för Palmemordet Johan: Jag ombads skjuta statsministern Polisen: Vi har hållit förhör http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article17560321.ab edit typos Edited September 30, 2013 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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