GRAPHIC EVIDENCE

[Charles Drago]

At a JFK/Lancer conference some years ago, Doug Horne illustrated his presentation of problems with the medical evidence with a set of adult human skulls on which conflicting descriptions of the head wound(s) had been drawn.

It occurred to me then -- and I said so at the podium -- that anatomically correct sculptures of JFK's head and torso, replete with graphic depictions of those same wounds -- likely would provide poweful visual arguments for alteration, the non-viability of the SBT, the disparities (or not) between Parkland and Bethesda observations, etc.

Robert Groden made an extremely modest attempt to do just this in his first large-format book.

I submit that the recently posted special EFX materials, disturbing though they may be, underscore my earlier point.

Charles

[David G. Healy]

At a JFK/Lancer conference some years ago, Doug Horne illustrated his presentation of problems with the medical evidence with a set of adult human skulls on which conflicting descriptions of the head wound(s) had been drawn.

It occurred to me then -- and I said so at the podium -- that anatomically correct sculptures of JFK's head and torso, replete with graphic depictions of those same wounds -- likely would provide poweful visual arguments for alteration, the non-viability of the SBT, the disparities (or not) between Parkland and Bethesda observations, etc.

Robert Groden made an extremely modest attempt to do just this in his first large-format book.

I submit that the recently posted special EFX materials, disturbing though they may be, underscore my earlier point.

Charles

Charles,

What 'recent' Special Effects (EFX) materials?

Thanks,

DHealy

Edited May 8, 2007 by David G. Healy

[Charles Drago]

At a JFK/Lancer conference some years ago, Doug Horne illustrated his presentation of problems with the medical evidence with a set of adult human skulls on which conflicting descriptions of the head wound(s) had been drawn.

It occurred to me then -- and I said so at the podium -- that anatomically correct sculptures of JFK's head and torso, replete with graphic depictions of those same wounds -- likely would provide poweful visual arguments for alteration, the non-viability of the SBT, the disparities (or not) between Parkland and Bethesda observations, etc.

Robert Groden made an extremely modest attempt to do just this in his first large-format book.

I submit that the recently posted special EFX materials, disturbing though they may be, underscore my earlier point.

Charles

Charles,

What 'recent' Special Effects (EFX) materials?

Thanks,

DHealy

See: "The Head Wound: Great Similarity" thread. The images, you should know, are quite disturbing.

[Charles Black]

Hello Charles

What I have continued to find most discomforting in JFK research, are the topics which seem to elicit the greatest continuing interest, is the endless rehashing of forty year old discussions to which very little new material has been added.

It would seem to me that the "graphic evidence" to which you refer, should be found quite significant.

Not, however, for the impact which the horror of these photos provide, but as the closest likeness that I have seen, of what most eyewitnesses seem to have reported.

It seems to me that "the" major area in which this study has become seemingly hopelessly mired, is the disparity between what well over a hundred eyewitnesses reported, along with the corroborating statements of the EXPERT testimony of the Parkland Trauma Staff and many in attendance at the Bethesda Autopsy, with what was reported by the Warren Commission and the official autopsy report. The confliction of various autopsy photos with each other and with the autopsy xrays and autopsy report, further supports the very simple statement that "something is obviously and seriously wrong."

Finally there appears on this forum, a recreation that appears much more in accord with most eyewitness reports, and no one seems to care enough to comment on it. I don't think as educated adults, the excuse can be used that these photographs are in bad taste and too horrible to look at ! If this is the case, then progress is apparently a "side issue".

A review of some of the threads which continue to resurrect, cannot, in my straightforward opinion, lead toward an END. Yet this is the direction in which we choose to tread. Our treading is becoming a treadmill ! Of course, this is but an opinion of "one"!

Charles Black

[Charles Drago]

Charles B.,

I'm grateful that you share my sense of the power of visual reconstructions to illustrate -- and reinvigorate -- old examinations of evidence.

Would our shared work not benefit from the reactions of surviving Parkland and Bethesda medical personnel to the EFX materials, for instance?

And that's just for starters.

Charles D.

[William Kelly]

Since none of the photos, x-rays or reports from the doctors at Parkland or Bathesda would be admissible in a court of law, the first thing a grand jury would do is order a new, FORENSIC autopsy of the victim.

A proper forensic autopsy would not only determine the cause of death, gunshot to the head, but also produce photos, x-rays and use the latest technological techniques to create new records that can be introduced in court.

The debate shouldn't be whether JFK's remains should be reinterred and properly examined, but when and where it should be done.

BK

[Charles Drago]

Without question.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

The debate shouldn't be whether JFK's remains should be reinterred and properly examined, but when and where it should be done.

Sorry to be a parade-rainer-on-er, but I would guess the odds against this ever happening are massive. The spectacle of extinguishing the Eternal Flame, all the heavy equipment, workers trampling all over Our Beloved Dead - live on CBS, CNN, NBC, ABC, etc. etc, it would meet with fierce hostility by not only WC defenders, but by a human wall of alleged super patriots, religious spokespeople, you name it. The World Cup of disingenuous histrionics.

Not only that, but if it were to actually happen, the end game would need to be superbly cathartic, a real Perry Mason moment. Otherwise, there would be historic harm done to the effort to unravel the mystery. Without a major aha! this would be seen as ghoulish theater and little else. If it is at all possible, through the efforts of many people, to come to a tipping point of truth without turning a shovel, that's the way to go. Unless we come to the place where there truly is no other choice.

[William Kelly]

The debate shouldn't be whether JFK's remains should be reinterred and properly examined, but when and where it should be done.

Sorry to be a parade-rainer-on-er, but I would guess the odds against this ever happening are massive. The spectacle of extinguishing the Eternal Flame, all the heavy equipment, workers trampling all over Our Beloved Dead - live on CBS, CNN, NBC, ABC, etc. etc, it would meet with fierce hostility by not only WC defenders, but by a human wall of alleged super patriots, religious spokespeople, you name it. The World Cup of disingenuous histrionics.

Not only that, but if it were to actually happen, the end game would need to be superbly cathartic, a real Perry Mason moment. Otherwise, there would be historic harm done to the effort to unravel the mystery. Without a major aha! this would be seen as ghoulish theater and little else. If it is at all possible, through the efforts of many people, to come to a tipping point of truth without turning a shovel, that's the way to go. Unless we come to the place where there truly is no other choice.

Hi Mark,

No rain. The odds are tremendous but ah, it's already happened. The body of JFK was already reinterred while there was a sitting grand jury investigating his murder.

JFK's body was reinterred during a secret, middle of the night, military exercise in 1968, while there was an active grand jury investigating the case in New Orleans.

The military moved the body to make room for the remains of the baby who died in 1963 and was reburried next to JFK. It was done in secret because if Garrision knew it was happening he probably would have requested a proper forensic autopsy.

There are picture of the event, and it is believed that it was at this time RFK placed the brain of JFK into the casket before it was reburried.

So the massive odds against have already been overcome in that it has happened, and will happen again. It will not be a media circus however, but a forensic procedure for the purpose of creating new records and evidence that can be used in a court of law.

The most logical place for it to occur is the closest world class forensic autopsy lab at George Washington University.

BK

[John Dolva]

There are alternatives emerging/existing. New technologies using various energy waves, whether ultra sound or radio or others exist and are continually being developed.

What computers and these new technologies may allow is a non-invasive 3d mapping of the coffin and its contents to a sufficient degree of detail and certainty by installing probes at appropriate places. A large enclosed space could be constructed over the tomb for the duration. The data can then be used to create a 3d model of the coffins contents and no disturbing of the flame or anything else that may be unseemly and cause for a media show. The will to do it is likely what is needed most.

[Charles Black]

There are two factors regarding my forthcoming question which I am well aware of:

1) The reluctance of the Justice Department to delve further into this...although I feel that this "reluctance" can be legally overcome.

2) The reluctance of the Kennedy family toward the furher disturbance of JFK's remains. If I am not mistaken, unsolved or "reopened" murder cases have in the past, involved the reexamination of an interred deceased, regardless if there was the absence of family approval. This is the way that many murder cases have been reinvestigated. I know that there are U.S. lawyers who are forum members that perhaps can clarify this subject. I strongly suspect that if the Feds or state wanted to disinter "my father" in an attempt to solve an "untried" murder, my protest would mean little. If what I believe is in fact truth, I do not understand how "Kennedy Family" wishes LEGALLY hold more weight than mine. I, again, do understand "reality"....but I am speaking of legality !

I well recognize REALITY as well as I recognize TRUE POWER!

However we are talking about the better interests of a nation of 300 million people and the murder of its leader, who was also the most powerful man on earth. Is the Kennedy Family or this nation the TRUE POWER ? How can this be justified ?

I am one of the few idiots on this earth that literally believes that "anything" can be done, if properly approached !

Charles Black

[John Dolva]

There is a precedent. I can't remember the name of the President. (Adams?) 100 years after a continuing controversy about whether he had been poisoned, his family gave consent. The end result was that he had not been poisoned. The affair was, even though the family permitted it, a traumatic event for them. The way it was handled also gives a template of how not to do it. The media frenzy was unexpected and it turned into a bit of a trick in dodging them and completing the process in a completely satisfactory manner.

EDIT:: it was President Zachary Taylor, exhumed 1991.

Edited May 10, 2007 by John Dolva

[Guest Mark Valenti]

The odds are tremendous but ah, it's already happened. The body of JFK was already reinterred while there was a sitting grand jury investigating his murder.

I don't know - I think we're in a different time now, where events in Washington are under such scrutiny (except those secret things being achieved by the current Administration) that it would not be possible for such an act to remain dignified or very private.

[William Kelly]

The odds are tremendous but ah, it's already happened. The body of JFK was already reinterred while there was a sitting grand jury investigating his murder.

I don't know - I think we're in a different time now, where events in Washington are under such scrutiny (except those secret things being achieved by the current Administration) that it would not be possible for such an act to remain dignified or very private.

Whether the victim is a bum, a President or Paris Hilton, if it can be demonstrated that it is a suspicious death, let alone murder, there are very strict legal forensic pathological procedures for the proper conduct of such an autopsy, and neither Fox News commentators or the family of the victim have a say in the matter.

Exhumations and foresnic autopisies of suspicious deaths occur every day in the USA and JFK's day will come, sooner than you think.

BK

[Charles Drago]

My concern regarding exhumation relates to chain of custody.

Would the best evidence be allowed to rest just six feet away from revelation?

Recall the condition of LHO's crypt when it was brought to light.

When the official Dallas-to-Washington casket was dropped into the abyss, was it lead weights alone that it carried?

There is even a macabre story -- which I repeat but hardly embrace -- that the Dallas cenotaph is hardly that.

Charles