Why hide the rifle?

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi,

I think the MC found on that location has to do with the wound in Connelly's left upper leg. And a miscommunication in the cover-up.

For that I make a referrence to Z224. Where you can see Connelly emerging from the roadsign. He looks to his right.

In the next couple of frames his jacket seems to move, and he lifts his hat from his lap to the right. His neck stretches, and from what I can see he is looking down at his left leg. Then he turns violently over his right shoulder towards Kennedy.

In my oppinion that could only come from the TSBD, on a high floor, and on the other side of the sniper's nest. Close to where the MC was found.

There is an interview with Mary Woodward on TMWKK disk 2. She was quite convinced 3 shots were fired, and wrote that in her article immediately after the events.

I presume this information reached the cover-up team. And was decided to go with LN solution (three bullets..... no problem....). And (false)evidence had to be removed from the scene and the record. Like the Mauser found in TSBD, could well have covered for the sniper's nest. And all must point to Oswald being the LN. To close the case.

Making his movement in superman speed, moving back and forth the 6th floor. No wonder he needed a soda....

I find an association in this timeframe to a backshot to Connelly quite unbelievable, since it collapsed his lung. He cried out: "They are gonna kill us all" (with collapsed lung????) And he lost consciousness in Nellie's lap. That is further on Elm..... way! He first turns left at 224, far right. And then towards GK, as in 313, and dives on Nellie after 313.

The thing with a cover-up is to give a plausible solution as far as possible from the truth. To clear the guilty ones. And keep pushing it!

So in the immediate aftermath of the events, it may be decided on more than one patsy(3???), to hand a plausible solution. But a three shot sollution (as described by the female reporter) may well limit the amound of patsy's to one. And I think it was decided to change all evidence accordingly to support a LN.

So Mauser and all else disappears what does not support LN theory. Oswald hid the rifle at the other side etc....... according to official story. As you may have guessed, I do not dig....

Another advantage is of this position is. The sniper's nest does not have a clear view over Elm. And then a window closer to that point may have better credibillity. As well would make it possible to make the starting of the shooting further from the corner. FWIW. But then you end up with 2 sniper's nests, and only one shooter. One has the shooter, the other the rifle..... LMAO

With regards to reloading the rifle when job is done...... I doubt if you could see from the presumed position, wheather that third one is the bussiness right away(through missaligned scope, when rifle moves from firing). So reloading may be a good idea anyway, or force of habbit..... in another situation. Since I do not believe for one bit that the MC, dry and rusty.... scope misalligned, was used that day. Was only meant to link to the patsy .....IMO. To close the case as fast as possible.

That is what I think.

Maarten

[Thomas Graves]

I recall reading that the paper bag found on the 6th floor was not oily in any way. Yet the Carcano was well oiled. Also the shells were found fairly close to each other, this suggests they were placed there, and were not were they'd be had they been ejected from the carbine.

The best ear witnesses were the 3 African American men watching the motorcade on the 5th floor. One of them claimed to have heard the ejected shells drop onto the floor above him. Also one of these men had dust or something fall onto his head during the shooting from the floor above (the floor was being repaired at the time, which allowed for a need for Oswald and hsi employment there in the first place).

If they heard that much, I wonder why didn't they report hearing the assassin take steps (run/walk) to the other end of the 6th floor to hide the rifle after the deed? Why were they unable to give testimony as to how the assassin fled from the building? The elevators and staircases were right there. Surely they'd hear the elevator being operated or someone running in the staircase, if they could hear the shells falling onto the floor above?

Anyone get the feeling that some of the witness statements are false and that some of the evidence has been planted?

I am.

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD

building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted

to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to

the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down

the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch.

The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the

fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth

floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several

times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming

klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very

loudly.

You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse,

not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the

upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board

flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between

floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of

the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard.

Jack

______________________________

Jack,

When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes?

O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63....

--Thomas

P.S. Go Froggies!

______________________________

Bump a cream-cheese bagel!

______________________________

Edited May 12, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Bernice Moore]

Follow-up to the previous discussion.

Antti,

Jack White responded to your question by describing something he took part in - a test conducted in the TSBD when the floors were empty. Of course he heard the shells drop and of course he heard footsteps. But in 1963, the heavy book cartons all over the sixth floor deadened the noise.

Also, I suspect the assassin knew there were people below him, for the floors were very thin - just one layer of plywood - and the sound would easily carry through. Jack also ignored the simple fact that there were ten to fifteen vehicles and motorcycles right below the window along with cheering crowds, so there was a lot of ambient noise that could have masked some of the sounds from the floor above.

The guys on the fifth floor in 1963 always said they heard the shells hit the floor and the sound of the rifle being operated above them. I don't know of any reason to question their stories and I'm not aware of any researchers who have even attempted to debunk their claims.

Gary

Hi,

Thank you for sharing your view. I'm not sure what it was that made me think there were discrepancies in their stories, somehow I recall the timing of events seemed to get these gentlemen to "stumble". At any rate this was the impression I was left with, I do need to point out it was 2-3 years ago that I read their testimony.

Even with heavy book boxes on the floor, I can't quite figure out why they wouldn't also hear and then mention the movement of the assailant in their testimony. Even if not to set the record straight, they must have been afraid or concerned about this individual possibly moving down to the 5th floor and would therefore try and listen out to what that individual might be doing next, simply out of instinct.

Antti

Hi Antti:

There was no cardboard covering, on the 6th floor, floor...just boxes, and as you can see in this photo below ..taken that day by the DPD..

.........there was supposedly a straight path from the said nest out ....at a run, yes I think also that steps would have been heard.

........If their hearing was that good , noise and all coming from the

outside of the building, that Gary refers to, to hear three small empty shells hiting the floor, and the sound of said rifle being operated above them...

Then the running steps of a man, weighing more than 100 lbs... would have been heard..very

clearly..

B..

Edited May 12, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Donald Diabo]

i am convinced it was the man in the moon that did it.

i lose faith. we will never know the truth.

i here by give up.

i have a family and a life to which i shall strive for.

however, i know y'alls pain.

[Jack White]

I recall reading that the paper bag found on the 6th floor was not oily in any way. Yet the Carcano was well oiled. Also the shells were found fairly close to each other, this suggests they were placed there, and were not were they'd be had they been ejected from the carbine.

The best ear witnesses were the 3 African American men watching the motorcade on the 5th floor. One of them claimed to have heard the ejected shells drop onto the floor above him. Also one of these men had dust or something fall onto his head during the shooting from the floor above (the floor was being repaired at the time, which allowed for a need for Oswald and hsi employment there in the first place).

If they heard that much, I wonder why didn't they report hearing the assassin take steps (run/walk) to the other end of the 6th floor to hide the rifle after the deed? Why were they unable to give testimony as to how the assassin fled from the building? The elevators and staircases were right there. Surely they'd hear the elevator being operated or someone running in the staircase, if they could hear the shells falling onto the floor above?

Anyone get the feeling that some of the witness statements are false and that some of the evidence has been planted?

I am.

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD

building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted

to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to

the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down

the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch.

The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the

fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth

floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several

times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming

klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very

loudly.

You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse,

not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the

upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board

flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between

floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of

the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard.

Jack

______________________________

Jack,

When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes?

O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63....

--Thomas

P.S. Go Froggies!

______________________________

Bump a cream-cheese bagel!

______________________________

If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps,

which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps?

Jack

[Thomas Graves]

I recall reading that the paper bag found on the 6th floor was not oily in any way. Yet the Carcano was well oiled. Also the shells were found fairly close to each other, this suggests they were placed there, and were not were they'd be had they been ejected from the carbine.

The best ear witnesses were the 3 African American men watching the motorcade on the 5th floor. One of them claimed to have heard the ejected shells drop onto the floor above him. Also one of these men had dust or something fall onto his head during the shooting from the floor above (the floor was being repaired at the time, which allowed for a need for Oswald and hsi employment there in the first place).

If they heard that much, I wonder why didn't they report hearing the assassin take steps (run/walk) to the other end of the 6th floor to hide the rifle after the deed? Why were they unable to give testimony as to how the assassin fled from the building? The elevators and staircases were right there. Surely they'd hear the elevator being operated or someone running in the staircase, if they could hear the shells falling onto the floor above?

Anyone get the feeling that some of the witness statements are false and that some of the evidence has been planted?

I am.

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD

building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted

to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to

the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down

the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch.

The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the

fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth

floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several

times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming

klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very

loudly.

You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse,

not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the

upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board

flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between

floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of

the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard.

Jack

______________________________

Jack,

When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes?

O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63....

--Thomas

P.S. Go Froggies!

______________________________

Bump a cream-cheese bagel!

______________________________

If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps,

which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps?

Jack

______________________________

Because the shells were hollow and made of metal and therefore made a high-pitched ringing sound, directly above the witnesses?

--Thomas

______________________________

Edited May 14, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Duke Lane]

I'd like to expland the hiding of the rifle to the brown paper bag, which Oswald allegedly used to bring the rifle to work with. Why did Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Wesley Frazier (brother and sister) testify that Lee placed a 2-2.5 foot long brown paper bag type parcel into Wes Frazier's car's back seat. Frazier testified the Lee carried it to the TSBD from the car. Lee had allegedly said it contained curtain rods he planned to use for his apartment room (apparently on N. Beckley), where he was staying.

Were both Mrs. Randle and Wes Frazier somehow pressured to testify that Lee had such a package with him, or did he in fact have this package with him. ...

I can credit the position of Buell and Linnie Mae being "pressured," but if they were, why not get the complete story straight? Why pressure someone to say that LHO brought a bag in if they couldn't corroborate the length of the bag, too? And if the pressure was merely to say that he'd had a bag, is it plausible to consider that B&LM decided to corroborate the remaining details between themselves alone, and then not only testify to the same thing, but also to not accede to pressure to make the imaginary bag longer than they'd concocted in their own imaginations? "Okay, we'll lie about him having the bag, but we won't lie about the length of the bag we both know he really didn't have?" Hello?

... The best ear witnesses were the 3 African American men watching the motorcade on the 5th floor. One of them claimed to have heard the ejected shells drop onto the floor above him. Also one of these men had dust or something fall onto his head during the shooting from the floor above (the floor was being repaired at the time, which allowed for a need for Oswald and hsi employment there in the first place).

If they heard that much, I wonder why didn't they report hearing the assassin take steps (run/walk) to the other end of the 6th floor to hide the rifle after the deed? Why were they unable to give testimony as to how the assassin fled from the building? The elevators and staircases were right there. Surely they'd hear the elevator being operated or someone running in the staircase, if they could hear the shells falling onto the floor above?

Anyone get the feeling that some of the witness statements are false and that some of the evidence has been planted? I am.

Antti,

Jack White responded to your question by describing something he took part in - a test conducted in the TSBD when the floors were empty. Of course he heard the shells drop and of course he heard footsteps. But in 1963, the heavy book cartons all over the sixth floor deadened the noise.

Also, I suspect the assassin knew there were people below him, for the floors were very thin - just one layer of plywood - and the sound would easily carry through. Jack also ignored the simple fact that there were ten to fifteen vehicles and motorcycles right below the window along with cheering crowds, so there was a lot of ambient noise that could have masked some of the sounds from the floor above.

The guys on the fifth floor in 1963 always said they heard the shells hit the floor and the sound of the rifle being operated above them. I don't know of any reason to question their stories and I'm not aware of any researchers who have even attempted to debunk their claims.

Gary

Hi,

Thank you for sharing your view. I'm not sure what it was that made me think there were discrepancies in their stories, somehow I recall the timing of events seemed to get these gentlemen to "stumble". At any rate this was the impression I was left with, I do need to point out it was 2-3 years ago that I read their testimony.

Even with heavy book boxes on the floor, I can't quite figure out why they wouldn't also hear and then mention the movement of the assailant in their testimony. Even if not to set the record straight, they must have been afraid or concerned about this individual possibly moving down to the 5th floor and would therefore try and listen out to what that individual might be doing next, simply out of instinct.

Antti

Gary's are clearly sensible answers, but at least part conjecture. I agree that heavy objects would tend to absorb some of the vibration of the floor (and thence the sound of footsteps), but do not believe that they would absorb it so completely as to be unheard. Another factor corresponding with that would be the type of shoes worn by someone running across such a floor: leather-soled dress shoes or cowboy boots would make a sharper and less muffle-able sound than rubber-soled work shoes or sneakers.

It's at least somewhat plausible that three men who heard fraction-of-an-ounce shells hit the floor above them did not hear the sound of someone running halfway across the 100'x100' floor above them, or running down the stairwell at the far corner (you work out the hypotenuse, I've forgotten how!), but I'm not so certain that they'd not have heard similar movement just five or ten feet away, essentially directly above them. None at all?

Of course, you've got to ask the question: who said there was anyone running upstairs? That is only a necessity if it was, in fact, Oswald sprinting madly to make his fateful encounter with Officer Baker four floors below. If it was anyone else, they did not have to get anywhere in any set amount of time, and in fact would have had sufficient time to get off the floor at a leisurely walk if you consider that all they had to do was be gone by the time anyone - cops, particularly - had gotten to the sixth floor from outside. What was not timed in the "reconstructions" was how long it took Baker & Truly to get upstairs after the lunchroom encounter.

What we do know, however, is that when B&T first went indoors to the main elevator shafts near the NW corner of the building, both men testified that both elevators were stopped at the same place on a floor above them (Truly, being more familiar with the building than Baker, specified that it was at the fifth floor). By the time that they had arrived at the fifth floor where both elevators had been, one was no longer there, and had gone down while B&T were running up, making quite a bit of noise (per Baker's testimony) as they did so, very possibly enough to cover the sound of the elevator's descent.

No, make that simply "enough noise to cover the sound," since the elevator did go down while they were on the way up the staircase, and they didn't hear it it do so .... or, at least, Baker didn't, and Truly didn't testify to it. QED.

What is harder to understand is how a man who claimed to have been standing at the NW corner of the building just feet from the stairs also did not hear or see anyone, despite the fact - established by Officer Baker - that people on the stairwell would make at least enough noise to completely mask the sound of the elevators' operation (and this from a man who would have undoubtedly been alert for any sounds or appearances of someone escaping!). At the time that the assassin(s) would have been (supposedly) coming down the stairs - at least, if he were Oswald hurrying to meet Baker on the 2nd floor - the elevators were not operating, so the sound of the elevators would not have masked the sound of someone running down the stairs.

Ergo, if the elevators weren't operating and making noise, and Jack Daugherty didn't hear anyone making noise going down the stairs - which they would have done - then nobody was going down the stairs! The only speculation - and that's what it is: speculation - that would seem to refute that conclusion is that a man or men would make more noise going up the stairs than down.

It should also be noted that Jack was not working only on the fifth floor, but had been on both the fifth and sixth floors during the time leading up to the shooting. He was not seen by anyone (or nobody admitted to seeing him, anyway) - not Bonnie Ray Williams eating lunch on the sixth floor, nor by him, Junior Jarman or Shorty Norman later on the fifth floor. The only proofs of his having been there - for any reason, doing anything - are his own word and the fact that one of the elevators descended from the sixth floor after Truly had yelled up to send it down and before he and Baker had arrived at the fifth floor.

It is interesting to note that Jack Daugherty had testified that he "always took the full hour" for lunch, with the singlular exception of this particular day, November 22, 1963. Instead, on that day only, he returned to work after going downstairs for lunch in the domino room after only 15 minutes. He testified that he'd ridden an elevator upstairs, and had in fact ridden it between the fifth and sixth floors while he was working there between approximately 12:15 and 12:32 ... facts, actions and noises also not testified to by the three men on the fifth floor!

(From this, can we deduce:

1. Jack was not on the fifth and sixth floors as he testified; and/or
   
2. Jack was there, but was unseen and unheard by anyone on either floor for 15 minutes while he worked collecting books from various locations on each floor; and/or
   
3. Jack was there and was seen by one or more of the three men, but they chose not to admit it?
   

... and if those are all of the possible deductions, which is most likely? If they're not all, what else can we deduce?)

So, let's move to a possible scenario that takes into account almost all of what we know about the events leading up to the shooting.

The men working on the flooring went downstairs to wash up for lunch a few minutes earlier than usual in anticipation of seeing the President's motorcade. They normally broke a few minutes before the lunch hour started so that they'd be cleaned up to eat and enjoy their hour off, but on this day they broke at about ten minutes till and went to the first floor washroom (a "one-holer") to clean up.

Lee Oswald was also on the sixth floor but was still working, and was still expected to be working, since one didn't normally break for lunch until five minutes till noon. He asked them to send an elevator back up for him (which nobody did) and finished his job before going downstairs for lunch at the usual time. He may have left his clipboard on the sixth floor in anticipation of completing the order he'd been working on after the parade was over.

Oswald ate lunch and was seen eating lunch downstairs, seen by at least two people, none later than 12:15, ten minutes before the President was due to arrive. This is not so much a testimony to the fact that LHO "wasn't seen" after 12:15 as it is that everyone was expecting the President to arrive soon, and weren't generally paying attention to anyone other than who they were with; maybe "noticed" is a better word? Oswald was again seen within two minutes of the shooting by three people in two instances, in each case appearing calm and unhurried. In the latter - closely following the first - he was last seen walking toward the front stairs of the building, which could have only taken him to the entry vestibule at the front of the building, where people were entering and exiting unobstructed.

Later, he is said to have told police that he had eaten lunch on the first floor, and had later gone to the second floor to get a coke, both of which are corroborated by witnesses. He is only "missing" - that is, unnoticed - for 15 minutes leading up to the shooting.

At about that same time, Jack Daugherty went back to work after also eating lunch in the first floor lunch room. He is the only TSBD employee who said he went back to work, adminitting that that was contrary to his usual routine of taking the full lunch hour. He went toward the back of the building while everyone else was either at the front of the building, going there, or had their attention centered there, and rode an elevator to the fifth floor. He spent the next 15 minutes, he said, collecting books on the fifth and the sixth floors, presumably unseen by anyone, and presumably also including the assassin(s) supposedly shooting from the sixth floor window(s).

We thus have a killer or killers who are confident enough - or invisible enough - to risk shooting at the President of the United States while an employee was wandering willy-nilly between two floors to seemingly random locations on each floor to collect books for an unspecified order: who's to say whether or when he'd also need to get some Rolling Readers - books that were contained in the boxes surrounding the so-called "sniper's nest" - to add to that order?

Is it likely that Lee Oswald could done what he is claimed to have done, barely dodging Jack's notice as he set about setting up a book-box screen and killing JFK? Could he have done so - could he have actually fired a rifle, mostly within the building - and hope to escape Jack's notice then as well? It wasn't as if JFK's motorcade was waiting for him to get set up before arriving in the plaza, so any inopportune arrival on the sixth floor by Jack Daugherty - who spent 15 minutes prior to the shooting supposedly working on that and the fifth floor - would have or could have irrevocably ruined the moment.

Unless Jack was somehow involved with Oswald or another shooter or shooters, if it didn't matter what Jack saw or heard, but especially if Jack was helping (we are presuming, of course, that Jack "the village idiot" was not the actual shooter).

Jack had the admitted means to have allowed someone to come in the back door of the TSBD after he finished his lunch, and taken them upstairs in an elevator immediately afterward, escaping notice entirely. He or they could have told Bonnie Ray to go downstairs "for their own good," and any Southern Negro (or Negroes) would have known to do just that, no questions asked, their silence ensured ... especially knowing that whoever had ordered them downstairs had the temerity to actually shoot the POTUS wouldn't hestitate to kill them too. The latter part is, of course, pure speculation.

Nevertheless, Jack was on the sixth floor in the moments leading up to the shooting, the only other person known and admitted to having been there other than Bonnie Ray Williams, who was unquestionably on the fifth floor when the shooting actually started; Jack's whereabouts are unknown ... and even he didn't claim to know where he was during the shooting because he claimed not to have heard it ... or anythiing else.

Following the shooting, he was at some point on the fifth floor both by his own admission, established by the fact that one of the two elevators left the fifth floor - even Roy Truly surmised (knew?) in his own testimony it was Jack who'd ridden it down as he and Baker ran up - and went unnoticed by anyone, eventually arriving at the first floor, where Jack alit from it. Whether anyone else rode with him was - and would necessarily have been - unstated, and it is not necessary that they rode all the way down with him, but only that they rode down past the point where B&T were heard coming up the stairs, thus escaping Baker's notice.

The elevator did not have to depart the sixth floor until B&T were heard on the last flights of stairs coming up from the fourth floor, although Baker did not specifically state that the elevator that had already departed the fifth floor was still operating ... nor did he state (or notice?) how far it had descended when he noticed it was already gone. It is possible that the elevator only initially descended one floor, below B&T, before proceeding downward yet again.

What is noteworthy is that one of the sheriff's deputies - Luke Mooney, if memory serves correctly - had indicated that, after he had started to ride the elevator up from the first floor, it ceased operating at the second floor, a fact corroborated by one of the female witnesses whose name escapes me at the moment. He then continued up from the second floor on foot, encountering two men who were descending from above. These men were apparently (dressed as) law enforcement personnel, inasmuch as Boone noted that they were "plainclothes, like me." This mention went unnoticed during his deposition.

(It is likewise noteworthy that, given the amount of time that had passed from the shooting until the time Mooney and the girl had gotten off of the stalled elevator, there was only one law enforcement official - Marrion Baker - who had been in the building long enough to have been descending from above the second floor, and he was still upstairs with Roy Truly. So who were these supposed cops and where were they coming from? Why did Mooney think they were cops, and not just men dressed in suits? He was never asked, nor asked to identify them in any way.)

Finally, since this thread is about the bag, it is also noteworthy that Jack Daugherty had access to the building at least an hour or so before anyone else came in, and presumably earlier (if he had keys) and/or any other time of day or night, presuming only that his early access was made possible by his having keys to the building. He was inside and saw LHO enter the building that morning with - according to Jack - nothing in his hands. The fact is, though, that while Troy Eugene West testified that he came in at 8:00, made coffee, and otherwise remained at his workplace wrapping outbound orders (except, as Harold Weisberg wryly noted, for "the necessities of life") his testimony has no bearing upon whether anyone else had access to it before West arrived or after he left.

This is particulary true of Jack Daugherty, who arrived an hour before everyone else to "check the pipes for leaks" and other miscellaneous duties, both by his own testimony and that of Roy Truly. Jack could have removed the taped wrappings - a "bag" - before or after West arrived on Friday or left for on Thursday. In fact, with ready, unsupervised and unobserved access to the tape machine and all other parts of the building, there would have been no need to remove the "bag" from the building at all, thus answering the question of how "Oswald" managed to get it out of the building without being able to fold it or leave any crease evidence of having folded it, thus concealing it from Frazier and everyone else. Simply stated, Oswald "accomplished" it ... by never having had it!

[Duke Lane]

If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps, which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps?

Jack

A possible answer above?

[Jack White]

I think care should be taken in using the phrase FIRST FLOOR LUNCHROOM.

As I recall, that should be GROUND FLOOR LUNCHROOM...in the half basement

BELOW the first floor...also called THE DOMINO ROOM. The first floor was really

the second floor.

It was reached by going down stairs by the front entrance.

Jack

[Duke Lane]

I think care should be taken in using the phrase FIRST FLOOR LUNCHROOM. As I recall, that should be GROUND FLOOR LUNCHROOM...in the half basement BELOW the first floor...also called THE DOMINO ROOM. The first floor was really the second floor. It was reached by going down stairs by the front entrance.

Jack

So it's safe to say that the only thing you disagree with is what to call the room that people at in that wasn't on the second floor? Not bad: one word - "ground" rather than "first" - out of how many? I be struttin'!

[Thomas Graves]

If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps, which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps?

Jack

A possible answer above?

__________________________________

See post #21. "Ping!"

__________________________________

[Duke Lane]

If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps, which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps?

Jack

A possible answer above?

See post #21. "Ping!"

Yes. As opposed to "THUD-THUD-THud-THud-Thud-Thud-THUD!-thud-thud-thud-thud-thud-thud...." (Feel free to substitute any "footfall" sound you'd like - "clomp?" The other loud one was the rifle being quickly hidden!)

Of course, I've also always wondered: why not "click-shick-ping!-shick-click ... bang! ... click-shick-ping!-shick-click ... bang!" Nope, just "ping!" And no "thud!"

Remember, at least the first couple of "thuds" were directly above their heads, too. After hearing those "pings," they wouldn't have had their attention directed above at least a little?!? Enough, anyway, to hear a 135-lb man get up, move boxes and run away? Especially after what might be construed as gunfire (or even just firecrackers) immediately above them, and just as people started panicking below, running toward the RR tracks?

I think all the conjecture in the world can be made about "why did they hear one noise to the exclusion of all others?" None of it, unfortunately, proves a damned thing, or is necessarily putative to anyone not predisposed to accepting it. Like: "empty floors reverberate; those with weight on them make no noise at all." Sounds logical till you start to think about it some.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Duke Lane

[Antti Hynonen]

If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps, which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps?

Jack

A possible answer above?

See post #21. "Ping!"

Yes. As opposed to "THUD-THUD-THud-THud-Thud-Thud-THUD!-thud-thud-thud-thud-thud-thud...." (Feel free to substitute any "footfall" sound you'd like - "clomp?" The other loud one was the rifle being quickly hidden!)

Of course, I've also always wondered: why not "click-shick-ping!-shick-click ... bang! ... click-shick-ping!-shick-click ... bang!" Nope, just "ping!" And no "thud!"

Remember, at least the first couple of "thuds" were directly above their heads, too. After hearing those "pings," they wouldn't have had their attention directed above at least a little?!? Enough, anyway, to hear a 135-lb man get up, move boxes and run away? Especially after what might be construed as gunfire (or even just firecrackers) immediately above them, and just as people started panicking below, running toward the RR tracks?

I think all the conjecture in the world can be made about "why did they hear one noise to the exclusion of all others?" None of it, unfortunately, proves a damned thing, or is necessarily putative to anyone not predisposed to accepting it. Like: "empty floors reverberate; those with weight on them make no noise at all." Sounds logical till you start to think about it some.

I have to say I agree with Duke Lane on this. Even with lots of heavy boxes on the 6th floor, a man walking or running on the 6th would have made enough noise for it to have been easily distinguishable steps, furthermore, something one would normally have included into their report, or testimony. Why it is not there is beyond me.

As I stated in my e-mail to Gary Mack, the 3 men on the 5th floor would have been alert and trying to figure out what the 6th floor rifleman was up to, and where he was going to go next, simply because they'd be afraid to be spotted by him as they were witnesses to his deed.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Chris Brown]

If Oswald acting alone, bought the rifle, transported it to his place of work in a paper sack, when the time came went up to his lair, assembled the rifle, fired 3 shots, then would not logic suggest that he dis-assemble the rifle put it back into the paper sack, remove it from his place of work and then dispose of it.

Chris Brown.

As a post said, taking your own rifle (which can be traced directly to you) into your place of work and the leaving it at your place of work is suicide.

If we are to believe the l’ners, then LHO confidently brought his rifle on site in a paper bag made of the same wrapping paper used all over the TSBD, set up the ‘shooters xxxx’ assembled his rifle got off 3 world class shots all in total control without being caught in the act by anyone. Then suddenly became aware of his awesome position and hastily hid the evidence that would most likely send him to the chair (gas chamber)

I say again why didn’t he coolly disassemble the rifle and walk out of the TSBD.

Who out of all of his fellow workers would have thought him to look suspicious carrying a package with the same paper covering, which was all around them?

Chris Brown.

[Antti Hynonen]

Chris Brown Posted Today, 11:50 AM

QUOTE(Chris Brown @ May 8 2007, 08:03 PM)

If Oswald acting alone, bought the rifle, transported it to his place of work in a paper sack, when the time came went up to his lair, assembled the rifle, fired 3 shots, then would not logic suggest that he dis-assemble the rifle put it back into the paper sack, remove it from his place of work and then dispose of it.

Chris Brown.

As a post said, taking your own rifle (which can be traced directly to you) into your place of work and the leaving it at your place of work is suicide.

If we are to believe the l’ners, then LHO confidently brought his rifle on site in a paper bag made of the same wrapping paper used all over the TSBD, set up the ‘shooters xxxx’ assembled his rifle got off 3 world class shots all in total control without being caught in the act by anyone. Then suddenly became aware of his awesome position and hastily hid the evidence that would most likely send him to the chair (gas chamber)

I say again why didn’t he coolly disassemble the rifle and walk out of the TSBD.

Who out of all of his fellow workers would have thought him to look suspicious carrying a package with the same paper covering, which was all around them?

Chris Brown.

Point 1) Why not disassemble the rifle and walk out of TSBD with it, but instead rather hide it in TSBD?

Probably due to panic and lack of time, the better option in this state of mind and surrounding status would seem to hide the weapon.

Point 2) Walking out of the TSBD with a 3 foot package just after the President has been shot, might just cause some co-worker, cop or other sharp individual to say: "hey, what you got in there?". Again safer to not walk out with a disassebled weapon, better to hide it. Hey, they might not find it among all those heavy boxes....