Why hide the rifle?

[Duke Lane]

If Oswald acting alone, bought the rifle, transported it to his place of work in a paper sack, when the time came went up to his lair, assembled the rifle, fired 3 shots, then would not logic suggest that he dis-assemble the rifle put it back into the paper sack, remove it from his place of work and then dispose of it.

As a post said, taking your own rifle (which can be traced directly to you) into your place of work and the leaving it at your place of work is suicide.

If we are to believe the l'ners, then LHO confidently brought his rifle on site in a paper bag made of the same wrapping paper used all over the TSBD, set up the 'shooters xxxx' assembled his rifle got off 3 world class shots all in total control without being caught in the act by anyone. Then suddenly became aware of his awesome position and hastily hid the evidence that would most likely send him to the chair (gas chamber)

I say again why didn't he coolly disassemble the rifle and walk out of the TSBD.

Who out of all of his fellow workers would have thought him to look suspicious carrying a package with the same paper covering, which was all around them?

Chris Brown.

Point 1) Why not disassemble the rifle and walk out of TSBD with it, but instead rather hide it in TSBD?

Probably due to panic and lack of time, the better option in this state of mind and surrounding status would seem to hide the weapon.

Point 2) Walking out of the TSBD with a 3 foot package just after the President has been shot, might just cause some co-worker, cop or other sharp individual to say: "hey, what you got in there?". Again safer to not walk out with a disassebled weapon, better to hide it. Hey, they might not find it among all those heavy boxes....

Gosh ... all those words of mine, and the point seems to have slipped by entirely!

The testimony of Troy Eugene West showed quite clearly that Oswald had had no access to the paper and tape machine without West having seen him. It also made clear that:

1. it was not possible to take the tape out of the machine and cut it without getting the adhesive wet (the tape had been determined to have been cut by the tape machine);
   
2. that the tape needed to be used immediately or the glue was useless (that it, it could not be extracted through the machine, cut, let dry, and then transported elsewhere and rewetted to use to seal the "package" later); and
   
3. West never once saw Oswald in proximity to the tape machine and paper, much less actually take any paper and tape ... and much less still see Oswald assemble such a package in the time constraints necessary.
   

In sum, Oswald never had the opportunity to manufacture this bag. West would have had to have been complicit if Oswald was anywhere near the wrapping station doing what he'd have to do when he'd have been able to do it.

As I recall, lab testing showed that both the paper and tape were used within a short time of what was being used on November 22, ergo the package was not something that could have been manufactured a week in advance or after the fact. If the "bag" was made in a very narrow window of time and Oswald didn't have the opportunity to make it during that window, then it was ipso facto made by someone else - and left in the sniper's nest? - either serendipitously (!) or for the express purpose of tying the gun to the bag to the workplace and thus to Oswald. QED: conspiracy.

Someone else did have such access, as other testimonies made clear, by his usual practice of arriving at TSBD an hour before everyone else "to check the pipes for leaks." He also had about 60 minutes to let someone else in to make it - and get them out again - before anyone else arrived for work.

Even LN'ers don't suggest that Oswald managed to manufacture the bag. It's just one of the "imponderables" of the case: Oz shot JFK, he used a rifle, he brought it to work that morning in a paper bag, a paper bag was "found in the sniper's nest" (LN'ers don't use quotes!), it was made using materials from TSBD ... ergo Oswald made it even if we can't figure out how or when!

If, at the time of the shooting, the bag was anywhere other than where it was claimed to be - and never photographed in place - then there's clearly a bigger issue looming ... as is probably the case. That means it was never there or arrived later, in either case unconnected to Lee Oswald.

Chris Brown's points are good but a little inaccurate. The wrapping paper was not used "all over the TSBD" nor "all around them" (the TSBD employess), but rather only at Troy Eugene West's wrapping station on the first floor. He used it to wrap book orders going out to customers, thus its use was limited to one location, and its proximities limited to between West's station and the shipping dock. This is not to say that other paper llike it might've been found elsewhere, but not that paper. Of course, employees probably wouldn't have noticed the fine nuances between them, eh?

As to bringing a gun to work - say, for example, a Mauser - or maybe even leaving it there was not necessarily "suicide," as I think I demonstrated reasonably adequately (if not quite conclusively) above: we have Luke Mooney - the first law enforcement person to have walked across the empty sixth floor - noting the departure of two "plainclothes [officers] like me" before he'd even gotten to the sixth floor himself. How did he surmise them to be police? By their dress alone? Or possibly by the fact that they were carrying a rifle - presumably the assassination weapon - down the stairs?

Likewise, there is no indication that there was any systematic, floor-by-floor, office-by-office search of the premises ... at least none that is corroborated by civilian employee/witnesses. All that was necessary was to get a rifle into the TSBD - as, for example, Warren Caster did two days before (a .22 for his son, and a "sporterized Mauser" for himself), or as someone entering the building at 7:00 a.m. that morning could have done - but it was not absolutely imperative that it be taken out if nobody was going to look in every possible nook and cranny for it.

Is it possible that Caster did not bring the rifles home as he'd said (it was not investigated), that he'd left them in his office, that someone had gotten one or both from his office and returned them there after the shooting, and thus did not have to get them out of the building that day? The answer is "yes" ... with the main argument against that particular scenario being that Caster's office was on the second floor of TSBD, meaning someone would have had to bring the gun past Mooney, and/or possibly be seen by Baker (if Truly had taken him up the front steps instead, for example) and/or Jeraldean Reid as she returned to her desk in office pool on that floor within two minutes of the shooting.

As to the (moot) points in the last post:

1. What indication of any such "panic" is there, at least on Oswald's part? "Panicked" one moment, then cool and calm less than two minutes later with a police revolver poked into his stomach? "This state of mind" so gamely postulated is not supported by any facts in evidence. Gimme a break!
   
2. You still have to get Oswald near to West's wrapping station to construct said "three foot package" in the first place before he can walk out the door with it. Troy West - who did not even leave his station when the motorcade went by! - might've noticed and said something, eh?
   

The question of "why hide the rifle" reminds me of Harold Weisberg's comment in response to the WCR's determination that LHO shot JD Tippit and "bottled himself up in the blind alley of a theater" instead of continuing his flight outside and away because he "wanted to get caught:" if he wanted to get caught, Weisberg asked rhetorically, why run?

Nobody could have considered the possibility of the rifle not being found; the only question was how long it would take someone to find it. A few minutes is all it would have taken to get out of the building an just a block away to safety. Apparently, it worked.

[Jack White]

Duke...my compliments. This is the best article I have read written by you.

It covers all the relevant points and contributes valuable insights into the

mystery of the paper bag.

Jack

[Duke Lane]

Duke...my compliments. This is the best article I have read written by you. It covers all the relevant points and contributes valuable insights into the mystery of the paper bag.

Jack

Omigosh! What would our handlers say?!?

Actually, it only qualifies as "rambling" since there are no cites in it. Have you seen the part about Baker "setting the rabbit running" (subtitle on another thread)? I thought that was better. About Tippit ....

[Trygve V. Jensen]

For those who have not seen it - The Mary Ferrell Foundation website has an excellent collection of photos from inside the TSBD.

It's at http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php?...Depository_-_p1

Looking south:

'Sniper's nest', also south:

The rifle:

[Chuck Robbins]

I recall reading that the paper bag found on the 6th floor was not oily in any way. Yet the Carcano was well oiled. Also the shells were found fairly close to each other, this suggests they were placed there, and were not were they'd be had they been ejected from the carbine.

The best ear witnesses were the 3 African American men watching the motorcade on the 5th floor. One of them claimed to have heard the ejected shells drop onto the floor above him. Also one of these men had dust or something fall onto his head during the shooting from the floor above (the floor was being repaired at the time, which allowed for a need for Oswald and hsi employment there in the first place).

If they heard that much, I wonder why didn't they report hearing the assassin take steps (run/walk) to the other end of the 6th floor to hide the rifle after the deed? Why were they unable to give testimony as to how the assassin fled from the building? The elevators and staircases were right there. Surely they'd hear the elevator being operated or someone running in the staircase, if they could hear the shells falling onto the floor above?

Anyone get the feeling that some of the witness statements are false and that some of the evidence has been planted?

I am.

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD

building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted

to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to

the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down

the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch.

The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the

fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth

floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several

times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming

klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very

loudly.

You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse,

not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the

upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board

flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between

floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of

the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard.

Jack

______________________________

Jack,

When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes?

O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63....

--Thomas

P.S. Go Froggies!

______________________________

Bump a cream-cheese bagel!

______________________________

I may have this wrong, but, weren't the guys on the 6th floor putting down flooring that day?

If they had been doing the floor, wouldn't they need the boxes out of their way, perhaps stacked near the walls?

With or without boxes...sound would still resonate through a wooden floor. The effect of adding heavy boxes would be like tightening a drum head....you get a higher pitch..but you still hear the drum.

Is someone claiming that the boxes acted as a layer of sound-dampening material?

IMHO anyway.

[John Dolva]

I recall reading that the paper bag found on the 6th floor was not oily in any way. Yet the Carcano was well oiled. Also the shells were found fairly close to each other, this suggests they were placed there, and were not were they'd be had they been ejected from the carbine.

The best ear witnesses were the 3 African American men watching the motorcade on the 5th floor. One of them claimed to have heard the ejected shells drop onto the floor above him. Also one of these men had dust or something fall onto his head during the shooting from the floor above (the floor was being repaired at the time, which allowed for a need for Oswald and hsi employment there in the first place).

If they heard that much, I wonder why didn't they report hearing the assassin take steps (run/walk) to the other end of the 6th floor to hide the rifle after the deed? Why were they unable to give testimony as to how the assassin fled from the building? The elevators and staircases were right there. Surely they'd hear the elevator being operated or someone running in the staircase, if they could hear the shells falling onto the floor above?

Anyone get the feeling that some of the witness statements are false and that some of the evidence has been planted?

I am.

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD

building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted

to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to

the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down

the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch.

The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the

fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth

floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several

times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming

klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very

loudly.

You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse,

not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the

upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board

flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between

floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of

the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard.

Jack

______________________________

Jack,

When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes?

O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63....

--Thomas

P.S. Go Froggies!

______________________________

Bump a cream-cheese bagel!

______________________________

I may have this wrong, but, weren't the guys on the 6th floor putting down flooring that day?

If they had been doing the floor, wouldn't they need the boxes out of their way, perhaps stacked near the walls?

With or without boxes...sound would still resonate through a wooden floor. The effect of adding heavy boxes would be like tightening a drum head....you get a higher pitch..but you still hear the drum.

Is someone claiming that the boxes acted as a layer of sound-dampening material?

IMHO anyway.

I've been involved in designing and constructing soundproofing openings to be used in a meditation center so that there could be silence yet a movement of fresh air. Part of this was visiting the CSIRO laboratory sound research centre in Sydney. Sound manipulation can be achieved on a number of levels, ranging from total blocking to high enhancement.

An echo chamber is constructed by a number of solid surfaces placed in irregular planes throughout a closed space.

A barrier by itself affects sound. This is one of the simplest ways of reducing sound transmission.

The material that the various barriers that may exist is important. Solid surfaces reflect sound and porous and irregular softer surfaces absorb or deaden sound.

A cardboard box is usually a corrugated layer between two flat layers all of cellulose. One of the most effective simple sound deadener is the cellulose based wasp nest, or an approximation of it as a mesh of joined cellulose fibres with air pockets.

A wall of cardboard boxes will have a certain sound deadening quality.

A group of irregularly arranged walls of cardboard boxes may approximate an echo chamber, particularly if in a solid brick, rigid floor and roof space.

So, on the whole there is no simple answer.

Ear witnesses at the various passages (staircase, pipes, elevator) that led to the upper floors are the ones to focus on to get some answers. The (presumably holow) pipes led from the floors below past the nest (in fact a shooter there would be right up against the pipes). These pipes are metal and continuous (without break) and could be a source of sound to people near those pipes on the lower floors. As far as I know the accoustics of the TSBD building as it was on the day has never been satisfatorily explored and some reasonable assumptions seem to cast doubt on various ear witnesses.

It needs to be explored more.

Edited May 31, 2007 by John Dolva