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Dean Hartwell

Planes and Passengers of 9/11

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Len,

Re: the Shaler book information – I had some trouble with the link but assume that he says he identified the WTC remains. Is this book an official document from the State of New York?

Re: your links from the BBC and History Commons. Both of them say that there were no names attached to ten of the profiles provided by the FBI. Where did the FBI get these profiles? Shaler admitted that “Of course, we had no direct knowledge of how the FBI obtained the terrorists’ DNA.”.

This is evidence of officials stating that they have identified people. But as I have pointed out before, the public is still not privy to how DNA and DNA samples were obtained by official sources. No one saw any individual get killed, which is what usually happens in criminal investigations. There were eyewitnesses of “something” happening at the WTC and Pentagon, but there was a disconnect between those events and ready identification of what happened.

The government’s refusal to provide information that could establish the official story about hijackers and victims gives fuel to some of the suspicion. I still see no reason why they do not provide it.

Re: the manifests. Like the ID of people, a solid chain-of-evidence showing how the manifest was created, where the names came from and other corroborating information like receipts and boarding passes would help establish the official story. This kind of information should be available. (I should point out that I think passengers did leave from Boston on Flight 175 and Newark on Flight 93).

Re: the security videos. People posing as Atta and Omari could have taken that flight from Portland and gotten on the video (or even Atta and Omari themselves). The release of the video was a great way to convince much of the public that they participated. As to the Dulles video, I have not heard anyone say the people on the video did go, either.

Re: Never seen or heard from again. You believe that large groups of people cannot keep secrets. But if someone went on TV and confessed to being a part of a plot, would you necessarily believe them? James Files has confessed to murdering JFK but not all in the JFK community believe him. False confessions are quite common. In the Nicole Brown Simpson/Ron Goldman murders in LA, hundreds of people falsely confessed. And what if the plotters are the same people in charge of finding the plotters?

Re: Saeed Alghamdi. The claim that the FBI had published the personal details I mentioned previously was in reference to the September 14th press release by the FBI. The Telegraph had these comments that I think reflect some of the uncertainty about the “hijackers.”

“The FBI had published his [Alghamdi] personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had "stolen" his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr Al-Ghamd…

Last night the FBI admitted that there was some doubt about the identities of some of the suspects. A spokesman said: "The identification process has been complicated by the fact that many Arabic family names are similar. It is also possible that the hijackers used false identities."

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/telegraph_stolenids.html

Re: intercepts. Here is my source on intercepts. I have misstated. NORAD has scrambled jets 67 times. My mistake. However, this link makes reference to specific intercepts.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap

Edited by Dean Hartwell

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REPORT CARD ON “PLANES AND PASSENGERS” THREAD

In regular type, I repeat my assertion of facts and conclusions from first page. In block letters I write the results so far on this thread of these issues. Comments and corrections are welcome:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

RESULT: NOT CHALLENGED

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

RESULT: DISCUSSION OF PLANES BEING TRACKED BUT NO SOURCES CITED

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

RESULT: DISCUSSION THAT FEDERAL AUTHORITIES ONLY FOCUS ON PLANE PARTS THAT FACTORED INTO CRASH

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

RESULT: OPINION THAT WOODY BOX ARTICLES ONLY MENTIONED ONE PLANE WHICH I DISAGREE ABOUT

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

RESULT: OPINION THAT VIDEOTAPES WERE ONLY AVAILABLE AT PORTLAND MAINE AIRPORT AND DULLES; PORTLAND VIDEO DOES NOT PROVE ATTA FLEW OUT OF BOSTON; DULLES VIDEO LACKS TIME STAMP

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

RESULT: NO DISCUSSION

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

RESULT: NO DISCUSSION

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

RESULT: DISCUSSION THAT MANIFESTS ARE BEST EVIDENCE OF PASSENGERS, BUT NO SOURCE CITED

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

RESULT: “FALSE BLIPS” CHALLENGED. SOURCE MICHAEL RUPPERT DID NOT ATTRIBUTE HIS ASSERTION THAT BLIPS WERE ON SCREEN DURING EVENTS OF 9/11.

ALSO, I PLAN TO READ WHO THEY WERE BY DR. SHALER, WHICH PURPORTS TO DISCUSS THE IDENTIFICATION OF VICTIMS AT WTC AREA.

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I do need to make a correction not all the people on flights 11 and 175 had remains recovered “By April 30 2004, 52 of those aboard Flight 11 were identified, 45 by DNA. 26 of those on Flight 175 were identified, 26 by DNA” Who They Were: Robert C. Shaler. So 52 of the 87 Pax and crew from flight 11 and 26 of the 60 on board flight 175. This does not include 3 perpetrators whose remains were recovered. They could not be individually identified because the did not have DNA samples linked to specific hijackers.

Len, Could you please identify the source on this? Thanks!

Dr. Robert C. Shaler, director of the Forensic Biology Department at the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner during and after 9/11 wrote a book about IDing the WTC remains.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eI1pVWM38wEC&q=april+30#v=onepage&q=acela&f=false

LEN, I have read Dr. Shaler's book. With the exception of the portion you have selected in the link above, all of the discussion of DNA is about victims who worked in the World Trade Center. I have never disputed that there were victims there.

Dr. Shaler, in the book Who They Were, talks of meeting with some of the family members of Flights 11 and 175. He speaks of finding two matches among the family members of these families. These discoveries took place shortly before the end of the DNA matching, which makes me a bit skeptical. He also gave no way of corroborating these matches.

I am also unable to find the quote you cite above about Flight 11 and 175 passenger DNA anywhere in the book.

1) Their names appear on the flight manifests.

Len, What is your source for the flight manifests? Is it this one? (From exhibits at the 2006 Moussaoui trial)

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/passengers.html

I spelled out in my earlier post three of the manifests were released with in days of 9/11. United release the manifests for its flights (93 & 175) and the Boston Globe released the ones from Logan (11 & 175) copies of all 4 appeared in Terry Mcdermott’s 2005 book Perfect Soldiers.

LEN, If you could cite where you found the manifests, I could determine whether we are speaking of the same ones. On the manifests I cite above in the 911research link, I noticed that Mark Bingham, who supposedly made a call from Flight 93, is not listed. Furthermore, the date shown at the top of the manifests for 93 and 175 is October 4, 2002

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REPORT CARD ON “PLANES AND PASSENGERS” THREAD

In regular type, I repeat my assertion of facts and conclusions from first page. In block letters I write the results so far on this thread of these issues. Comments and corrections are welcome:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

RESULT: NOT CHALLENGED

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

RESULT: DISCUSSION OF PLANES BEING TRACKED BUT NO SOURCES CITED

You left out that I said themost likely explanation was a simple error and that what you propose makes know sense becuse if what you speculate hundred if not thousands of people would have known about it.

As for them being tracked there were numerous news reports about this which discuss among other things, trying to contact AA11 via radio, contacting OTIS, contacting NEADS, asking the pilots of flight 175 if they could see the plane and Boston Center handing off responsibility for both flights to NY Center.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

RESULT: DISCUSSION THAT FEDERAL AUTHORITIES ONLY FOCUS ON PLANE PARTS THAT FACTORED INTO CRASH

Something which you have not disputed

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

RESULT: OPINION THAT WOODY BOX ARTICLES ONLY MENTIONED ONE PLANE WHICH I DISAGREE ABOUT

The articles he cited gave different landing times for the same flight. Thus it is more likely that some got the landing time wrong, you gave no reason for 'disagreeing' with this.

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

RESULT: OPINION THAT VIDEOTAPES WERE ONLY AVAILABLE AT PORTLAND MAINE AIRPORT AND DULLES; PORTLAND VIDEO DOES NOT PROVE ATTA FLEW OUT OF BOSTON; DULLES VIDEO LACKS TIME STAMP

There is no shortage of evidence PAX boarded the flights as for the hijackers see my next post.

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

RESULT: NO DISCUSSION

A UA manager from Newark gave the FBI the hijackers boarding pass stub, see my next post.

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

RESULT: NO DISCUSSION

NO reason for any further evidence to be produce as there is no reasonable doubt all 4 flights flew and had the PAX on the manifests aboard.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

RESULT: DISCUSSION THAT MANIFESTS ARE BEST EVIDENCE OF PASSENGERS, BUT NO SOURCE CITED

Wrong I gave you sources for the manifests you have not show any discrepancies between them.

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

RESULT: “FALSE BLIPS” CHALLENGED. SOURCE MICHAEL RUPPERT DID NOT ATTRIBUTE HIS ASSERTION THAT BLIPS WERE ON SCREEN DURING EVENTS OF 9/11.

ANd I demonstrated he is not a reliable source thus there is no basis for your speculation.

ALSO, I PLAN TO READ WHO THEY WERE BY DR. SHALER, WHICH PURPORTS TO DISCUSS THE IDENTIFICATION OF VICTIMS AT WTC AREA.

You of course also forgot to mention numerous points you failed to reply to such as the next of kin not questioning the martyrdom videos.

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Len,

Re: the Shaler book information – I had some trouble with the link but assume that he says he identified the WTC remains. Is this book an official document from the State of New York?

No, it was privately published he worked for NYC anyway. The BBC article cited a spokesperson for the medical examiners office. I’m not sure what your problem was. If the link did not lead you to the page do search for april 30 which should in result in 3 – 5 results.

Re: your links from the BBC and History Commons. Both of them say that there were no names attached to ten of the profiles provided by the FBI. Where did the FBI get these profiles? Shaler admitted that “Of course, we had no direct knowledge of how the FBI obtained the terrorists’ DNA.”.

See the BBC article; I already acknowledged they were unable to figure out exactly which sample belonged to which terrorist.

This is evidence of officials stating that they have identified people. But as I have pointed out before, the public is still not privy to how DNA and DNA samples were obtained by official sources. No one saw any individual get killed, which is what usually happens in criminal investigations. There were eyewitnesses of “something” happening at the WTC and Pentagon, but there was a disconnect between those events and ready identification of what happened.

The FBI described how they recovered the DNA samples from the cars and hotels. What exactly do you want to know about the DNA collection or analysis?

I have no idea what your point was regarding “No one saw any individual get killed” there are many murder cases where the bodies are only discovered well after the fact. The plane crashes were witnessed by many people. Nor do I agree there was any “disconnect”.

The government’s refusal to provide information that could establish the official story about hijackers and victims gives fuel to some of the suspicion. I still see no reason why they do not provide it.

You don't understand why they don't want to release DNA profiles? The letter said Mondigan could appeal, I've seen no evidence he did, did he ask the NYC Medical Examiner for the same info.

Re: the manifests. Like the ID of people, a solid chain-of-evidence showing how the manifest was created, where the names came from and other corroborating information like receipts and boarding passes would help establish the official story. This kind of information should be available. (I should point out that I think passengers did leave from Boston on Flight 175 and Newark on Flight 93).

Two were supplied by United itself but I doubt anything would satisfy you, if the boarding pass stubs were produced along with a affidavit from the people who collected them you would ask how we know they were telling the truth and that the stubs were authentic. You have unrealistic expectations about what evidence should be produced only a small fringe shares your doubts.

Re: the security videos. People posing as Atta and Omari could have taken that flight from Portland and gotten on the video (or even Atta and Omari themselves). The release of the video was a great way to convince much of the public that they participated. As to the Dulles video, I have not heard anyone say the people on the video did go, either.

Very few people doubted Atta and Omari participated. FWIW I found 3 witness accounts of them at the Portland airport or on the flight to Boston

ZAHN: Fascinating. Deborah Feyerick, thanks. Have a good weekend.

From 9/11, a haunting question: if you look someone in the eye, how much can you actually tell?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL TUOHEY, FORMER US AIR GATE AGENT: I had the devil standing right in front of me. And -- and I ignored it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHN: Coming up next, a fleeting first impression and guilt that will last forever.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Have you ever had a very strange feeling, a premonition that something was going to happen? Maybe something bad. Just listen to Drew Griffin's story of an airline ticket agent who actually came face-to-face with evil one September day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 9/11 Commission would describe the dawning of September 11 as temperate and nearly cloudless. By 4 a.m., Michael Tuohey was already at work at the U.S. Air ticket counter at the airport in Portland, Maine.

TUOHEY: Crystal clear, blue sky. Just a fabulous day to go to work.

GRIFFIN: One hour and 43 minutes into Tuohey's day, two men approached his ticket counter rushing to catch the 6 a.m. flight to Boston.

TUOHEY: They had a tie and jacket on. And as I'm looking at them, you know, they're holding their I.D.s up, and I'm looking at them. It's not nice but I said, "Geez, if this doesn't look like two Arab terrorists, I've never seen two Arab terrorists."

GRIFFIN: That was your first reaction?

TUOHEY: That was my thought as I'm looking at them. I'm looking at their licenses, and I'm looking at -- and that thought ran through my mind.

GRIFFIN: Where did that thought go?

TUOHEY: I don't know. At the -- immediately I felt guilty about thinking something like that. I -- I just said this is awful. How -- you know, I've checked in thousands of Arabic people over the years, you know, in doing the same job, businessman. I said these are just a couple of Arab business guys.

GRIFFIN: But something about these two men was different. Tuohey says the younger man, Abdul Aziz al-Amari could barely speak English. The other was Mohammed Atta. Tuohey says he had the eyes of a killer.

TUOHEY: He did. He had the deadest eyes I've ever seen.

GRIFFIN: Setting aside his gut reaction, Tuohey issued the boarding passes. The flight was leaving in 17 minutes, and Atta and Amari still had to clear security.

But Atta told Tuohey he wanted not only the boarding passes for the US Air flight to Boston but also the passes for their conducting American Airlines flight to Los Angeles.

Atta, the mastermind behind the 9/11 plan, was facing the plan's first obstacle, a gate agent with an attitude. TUOHEY: When I just gave him the ticket, I gave them the boarding cards for the Boston flight. And he says, he says, "Isn't this -- isn't there one-stop check-in?"

And I said, "No, you're connecting to American Airlines down in Boston."

GRIFFIN: Had Atta argued he would have missed his flight. Tuohey says the two men turned in a huff and hurried to the gate. Less than three hours later, Tuohey was told by a co-worker that American Flight 11 had crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center.

TUOHEY: I said, "Oh, my God." I said, "I just put two people on that plane." And I was feeling horrible. You know, I'm saying here I was thinking that these guys are terrorists, you know, and it -- it -- it -- I just had a flashback. I says, "Now the poor bastards are dead."

[…]

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0502/18/pzn.01.html

Roger Quirion and Vincent Meisner, making business trips to the West Coast, flew with Atta and Alomari on that first flight Tuesday. "They were joined at the hip," recalled Quirion. The two men struck him as clean-cut, wearing slacks, dress shoes and causal shirts, and carrying dark shoulder bags. Their hair was closely cropped. They had no facial hair. In short, they looked like typical businessmen. Unmenacing.

One of the hijackers took a seat in the fourth row. As Meisner passed to take the seat behind him, his luggage bumped the suspected hijacker's shoulder.

"Excuse me," Meisner said.

The man merely hunkered lower, putting his head down.

Meisner thought, "Well, he hasn't had his coffee yet, so I'll leave him alone."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A38026-2001Sep15

The same two are quoted in less detail here http://web.archive.org/web/20011120104515/http://www.suntimes.com/terror/stories/cst-nws-hijack16s1.html

And this of the Alhamzi brothers at Dulles

It was so ordinary at the time, so ominous in hindsight. An American Airlines agent at Dulles Airport in Virginia looked up as two polite young men of Arab origin handed over their tickets. Odd: they were waiting in the coach-class line, dressed in inexpensive clothes, but their tickets were first class, one way. Prepaid at $2,400 each. "Oil money," thought the agent. Such passengers are common at Dulles, but these two looked a bit young: one, around 20, spoke a little English; his brother, even younge r, spoke none. And they seemed awfully thin, almost underfed. The agent saw they had ordered special Muslim meals, but so had some others on the flight. The brothers gave the right answers to standard security questions and had valid IDs, one of them a pr oper-looking Commonwealth of Massachusetts driver's license. The agent wasn't in a rush and laughed to himself that the two brothers were such infrequent flyers they didn't know they could check in at the empty first-class counter. But the two were patient, pleasant, low key. There was really nothing to trigger alarms as the brothers and three other passengers of Arab ethnicity boarded American Airlines Flight 77 for Los Angeles.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/wplot.html

Additionally there are the FBI’s interview summary’s of airport employees who checked the hijackers including pgs. 1, 4, 9, 10, 14, 24, 27, 28, 33, 38, 40, 42 and 48 on the 2nd to last the UA manager gave the FBI the check in stubs (or info from them)

http://www.911myths.com/images/f/fd/Team7_Box17_Screeners911AndCheck-In.pdf

Re: Never seen or heard from again. You believe that large groups of people cannot keep secrets. But if someone went on TV and confessed to being a part of a plot, would you necessarily believe them? James Files has confessed to murdering JFK but not all in the JFK community believe him. False confessions are quite common. In the Nicole Brown Simpson/Ron Goldman murders in LA, hundreds of people falsely confessed. And what if the plotters are the same people in charge of finding the plotters?

Cite a comparable example of such a large disparate group keeping such a secret for so long? And no the Manhattan Project and the Tuskegee Syphilis Study are not comparable.

Since trusted intel types with high level security clearances like Phillip Agee, Victor Marchetti, Frank Snepp, John Stockwell, Joe Smith, Wesley Swearingen, Ralph McGehee, Ray McGovern, Donn de Grand-Pre, Ted Gunderson and Daniel Ellsberg among others not to mention other whistle blowers, Serpico, David Durk, Karen Silkwood etc came forward there would be no way guaranteeing that the hundreds to thousands of people who would have known something was amiss would keep silent.

As for Files - he, JVB, Beverly Oliver and "Tosh" Plumlee are not credible but some Logan FAA or AA employees coming forward to say flight 11 never took off would be hard to ignore.

Re: Saeed Alghamdi. The claim that the FBI had published the personal details I mentioned previously was in reference to the September 14th press release by the FBI. The Telegraph had these comments that I think reflect some of the uncertainty about the “hijackers.”

The link you posted to press release on the Internet Archive isn’t working, but the original is still available all it says about him is:

1) Saeed Alghamdi

-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida

-Alias: Abdul Rahman Saed Alghamdi; Ali S Alghamdi; Al- Gamdi; Saad M.S. Al Ghamdi; Sadda Al Ghamdi; Saheed Al-Ghamdi; Seed Al Ghamdi

And it IDed Jarrah as the pilot of the plane (flight 93). Thus Saeed Alghamdi the Saudi pilot and Abdulaziz Al-Omari, the “engineer from Riyadh” were incorrect when they told the Telegraph the “place, date of birth and occupation” divulged by the FBI “matched their own” and the paper did a horrendous job of fact checking.

“The FBI had published his [Alghamdi] personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had "stolen" his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr Al-Ghamd…

Last night the FBI admitted that there was some doubt about the identities of some of the suspects. A spokesman said: "The identification process has been complicated by the fact that many Arabic family names are similar. It is also possible that the hijackers used false identities."

http://911research.w..._stolenids.html

Yes CNN not the FBI divulged the photo of the Saudi Airlines pilot, journalists make mistakes. There were no photos in the early FBI press releases. And yes the FBI had some doubts in the 1st few days after the attacks but by Nov. 2, 2001 they seem to have passed because the director said "We at this point definitely know the 19 hijackers who were responsible,"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/02/attack/main316806.shtml

Re: intercepts. Here is my source on intercepts. I have misstated. NORAD has scrambled jets 67 times. My mistake. However, this link makes reference to specific intercepts.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap

The article said there were 67 scrambles “September 2000 to June 2001” but did not indicate how many led to successful intercepts nor where any of them were. According to other sources they were not over the “lower 48” and truthers being unable to cite any such intercepts in the decade before 9/11 other than Payne Stewart’s further confirms there were none.

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I do need to make a correction not all the people on flights 11 and 175 had remains recovered “By April 30 2004, 52 of those aboard Flight 11 were identified, 45 by DNA. 26 of those on Flight 175 were identified, 26 by DNA” Who They Were: Robert C. Shaler. So 52 of the 87 Pax and crew from flight 11 and 26 of the 60 on board flight 175. This does not include 3 perpetrators whose remains were recovered. They could not be individually identified because the did not have DNA samples linked to specific hijackers.

Len, Could you please identify the source on this? Thanks!

Dr. Robert C. Shaler, director of the Forensic Biology Department at the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner during and after 9/11 wrote a book about IDing the WTC remains.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eI1pVWM38wEC&q=april+30#v=onepage&q=acela&f=false

LEN, I have read Dr. Shaler's book. With the exception of the portion you have selected in the link above, all of the discussion of DNA is about victims who worked in the World Trade Center. I have never disputed that there were victims there.

Dr. Shaler, in the book Who They Were, talks of meeting with some of the family members of Flights 11 and 175. He speaks of finding two matches among the family members of these families. These discoveries took place shortly before the end of the DNA matching, which makes me a bit skeptical. He also gave no way of corroborating these matches.

I am also unable to find the quote you cite above about Flight 11 and 175 passenger DNA anywhere in the book.

See the linked page 302

1) Their names appear on the flight manifests.

Len, What is your source for the flight manifests? Is it this one? (From exhibits at the 2006 Moussaoui trial)

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/passengers.html

I spelled out in my earlier post three of the manifests were released with in days of 9/11. United release the manifests for its flights (93 & 175) and the Boston Globe released the ones from Logan (11 & 175) copies of all 4 appeared in Terry Mcdermott’s 2005 book Perfect Soldiers.

LEN, If you could cite where you found the manifests, I could determine whether we are speaking of the same ones. On the manifests I cite above in the 911research link, I noticed that Mark Bingham, who supposedly made a call from Flight 93, is not listed. Furthermore, the date shown at the top of the manifests for 93 and 175 is October 4, 2002

See the links I gave in my earlier posts the link you provided was to a victim's list based on media reports. See the actual MANIFEST

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Two were supplied by United itself but I doubt anything would satisfy you, if the boarding pass stubs were produced along with a affidavit from the people who collected them you would ask how we know they were telling the truth and that the stubs were authentic. You have unrealistic expectations about what evidence should be produced only a small fringe shares your doubts.

If you really believe this, Len, I am not sure why you have persisted with this discussion. Comments like this have made me lose interest in this discussion.

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Two were supplied by United itself but I doubt anything would satisfy you, if the boarding pass stubs were produced along with a affidavit from the people who collected them you would ask how we know they were telling the truth and that the stubs were authentic. You have unrealistic expectations about what evidence should be produced only a small fringe shares your doubts.

If you really believe this, Len, I am not sure why you have persisted with this discussion. Comments like this have made me lose interest in this discussion.

I am also persisting for the benefit of those who are on the fence about your theories not just to get you to admit error, that hardly seems possible. For example you claimed that articles said a plane landed at Cleveland Hopkins due to a suspected bomb aboard at 10:10 and others said one land for the same reason at 10:45 and assumed that one was UA 175. However when I pointed out that both the articles which indicated the earlier and later landing times identified the plane as being "Delta 1989" or "a Delta jetliner" and none mentioned two planes landing due to a suspected bomb and that 10:45 was well after the FAA order all planes to land to refused to accept that there reason to believe "one" of the planes was UA175.

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LEN, If you could cite where you found the manifests, I could determine whether we are speaking of the same ones. On the manifests I cite above in the 911research link, I noticed that Mark Bingham, who supposedly made a call from Flight 93, is not listed. Furthermore, the date shown at the top of the manifests for 93 and 175 is October 4, 2002

Mark Bingham was on the manifest used at the Moussoui trial and on the passenger list UA released 9/12 but you’re right he was not on the flight 93 manifest the FBI sent McDermott. I assume that was because he boarded the plane very late after door had been closed.

One passenger was late. Mark Bingham had overslept and his friend, Matthew Hall, drove madly from Manhattan to Newark. They screeched to a halt outside Terminal A at 7:40. Bingham leapt from the car, lugging the old, blue-and-gold canvas bag he'd used as a rugby player at the University of California at Berkeley a decade earlier.

United attendants reopened the door to the boarding ramp and let him on the plane.

Bingham slipped into a seat in aisle 4-D, next to Thomas Burnett. Nine minutes after Hall dropped him off, Bingham picked up his cell phone.

"Hey, it's me," he said. "Thanks for driving so crazy to get me here. I'm in first class, drinking a glass of orange juice."

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011028flt93mainstoryp7.asp

“On Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bingham was the last person to board United Flight 93.”

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/fea/life/stories/DN-NSL_gayrugby_1001liv.State.Edition1.1c381e1.html

“Mark Bingham was last to board the plane, having arrived late and nearly missed the flight.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/dec/02/september11.terrorism1

“At his private memorial I tried clumsily to console the man who urged him to skip the Monday flight and stay an extra day to recuperate from a birthday party – and probably overall fatigue, the way Mark raced around - and who gave him a hurried, last minute ride to the airport on Tuesday morning, watching him sprint into the airport and be the last person to board the plane, taking his seat in row 4. That evening Matt was still wrestling with a case of the "What Ifs."”

http://www.pflagsanjose.org/mbingham.php

“At 7:55 p.m., one last passenger came rushing down the gangway. That was Mark Bingham; he’d overslept. Bingham made a quick call before the plane backed away from the gate to tell the man he’d just started dating, that luckily, he’d just made the flight.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14789502/

It also might have something to do with him being the son of a United employee and probably having a buddy pass. Ordinary PAX don’t not only have the door opened for them in the last minute but then get bumped up to 1st class.

“"Mark was a fully alive person," said Ms. Hoglan, a flight attendant for United Airlines who raised her son as a single mother.”

http://www.markbingham.com/news.html

As for the 2002 date on the faxed manifests I’m sure if you think hard enough you can figure that one out.

Home what do mean by "supposedly made a call"? Do you think his mother a) lied or B) couldn't tell the difference between her own son and CIA agent whose voice had been "morphed" to sound like his?

Edited by Len Colby

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REPORT CARD ON “PLANES AND PASSENGERS” THREAD

In regular type, I repeat my assertion of facts and conclusions from first page. In block letters I write the results so far on this thread of these issues. Comments and corrections are welcome:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

RESULT: NOT CHALLENGED

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

RESULT: DISCUSSION OF PLANES BEING TRACKED BUT NO SOURCES CITED

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

RESULT: DISCUSSION THAT FEDERAL AUTHORITIES ONLY FOCUS ON PLANE PARTS THAT FACTORED INTO CRASH

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

RESULT: OPINION THAT WOODY BOX ARTICLES ONLY MENTIONED ONE PLANE WHICH I DISAGREE ABOUT

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

RESULT: OPINION THAT VIDEOTAPES WERE ONLY AVAILABLE AT PORTLAND MAINE AIRPORT AND DULLES; PORTLAND VIDEO DOES NOT PROVE ATTA FLEW OUT OF BOSTON; DULLES VIDEO LACKS TIME STAMP

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

RESULT: NO DISCUSSION

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

RESULT: NO DISCUSSION

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

RESULT: DISCUSSION THAT MANIFESTS ARE BEST EVIDENCE OF PASSENGERS, BUT NO SOURCE CITED

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

RESULT: “FALSE BLIPS” CHALLENGED. SOURCE MICHAEL RUPPERT DID NOT ATTRIBUTE HIS ASSERTION THAT BLIPS WERE ON SCREEN DURING EVENTS OF 9/11.

ALSO, I PLAN TO READ WHO THEY WERE BY DR. SHALER, WHICH PURPORTS TO DISCUSS THE IDENTIFICATION OF VICTIMS AT WTC AREA.

I tend to agree with Dean and Prof. Fetzer about 9-11. I believe a missile flew into the first WTC building. An airplane did hit the second building, but it was some kind of military or cargo plane with no windows.

I think a missile hit Shanksville. I remember them saying the passengers had "vaporized." The Pentagon, too, was hit by a missile in my opinion. (Rumsfeld even said so -- youtube.com.)

I believe it's possible that these people are alive. Last night on Conspiracy Theory, Jesse Ventura was shown "Residential" facilities for families. These places are all over America. They are behind 2 rows of barbed wire. An official from one such place said it wasn't a prison. Then what are they for?

Could it be possible that some of the residents are from the "hijacked" planes of 9/11? I believe it was an inside job and that the factions behind it want desperately to keep this secret. So short of murder, they keep these people in barbed wire "residences"? Jesse Ventura thinks we're close to martial law. He was shown acres of piled high plastic coffins. Who are they for?

Kathy C

(whatpricefame.blogspot.com)

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Jessie Ventura? Sorry - watching that... person... causes your IQ to plummet. I can't afford the loss.

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Jessie Ventura? Sorry - watching that... person... causes your IQ to plummet. I can't afford the loss.

I disagree. His show does a lot of research and then he goes out to see whatever it is and interviews the people there.

Have you ever heard of these family prison facilities? What are they and why are they a secret?

And then Ventura did another episode where he is trying to find out what infragard is. It's a weird offshoot of the FBI. People spying on their neighbors and co-workers. The spokesman said it's to prevent terrorism, but that's a crock. Both men Jesse talked to got red in the face trying to answer his questions. They were getting visibly nervous. Why? Because they were hiding something.

Do you know anything about infragard? I know this is a British forum mostly, but I wonder if you know anything about this.

Kathy C

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