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Guest James H. Fetzer

LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy: A Coalescence of Interests

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Guest James H. Fetzer

In the study of historical events of this magnitude, we are attempting to explain how and why they occurred in their particularity as unique incidents in history. So I certainly agree with Charles Drago that Lyndon was the pivotal player without whom it would not have occurred as it actually did occur! So perhaps we are bridging the divide between us. A new book has just appeared, which I have not read yet, but it looks very interesting and I am sure many will want to read it. So I am introducing a new thread to promote discussion:

LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy: A Coalescence of Interests (2011)

Joseph P. Farrell

http://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Conspiracy-Kill-Kennedy-Coalescence/dp/1935487183/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297897870&sr=1-2

Product Description

Best-selling, Oxford-educated investigative author Joseph P. Farrell takes on the Kennedy assassination and the involvement of Lyndon Baines Johnson and the Texas "machine” that he controlled. Farrell says that a coalescence of interests in the military industrial complex, the CIA, and Lyndon Baines Johnson's powerful and corrupt political machine in Texas led to the event culminating in the assassination. Without the help of the Dallas police chief and others of the Texas underworld, including Jack Ruby, the Kennedy assassination could not have taken place. Farrell analyzes the data as only he can, and comes to some astonishing conclusions. Topics include: Oswald, the FBI, and the CIA: Hoover's Concern of a Second Oswald; Oswald and the Anti-Castro Cubans; The Mafia; Hoover, Johnson, and the Mob; The FBI, the Secret Service, Hoover, and Johnson; The CIA and "Murder Incorporated”; Ruby's Bizarre Behavior; The French Connection and Permindex; Big Oil; The Military; Disturbing Datasets, Doppelgängers, Duplicates and Discrepancies; Two Caskets, Two (or was that Three?) Ambulances, One Body: The Case of David S. Lifton; Two (or is that Three?) Faces of Oswald; Too Many (or Was That Too Few?) Bullets; Too Many Films, with Too Many, or Too Few, Frames; The Dead Witnesses: Jack Zangretti, Maurice Brooks Gatlin, John Garret "Gary” Underhill, Guy F. Bannister, Jr., Mary Pinchot Meyer, Rose Cheramie, Dorothy Mae Killgallen, Congressman Hale Boggs; The Alchemy of the Assassination: Ritual Magic and Murder, Masonic Symbolism, and the Darkest Players in the Death of JFK; LBJ and the Planning of the Texas Trip; LBJ: A Study in Character, Connections, and Cabals; LBJ and the Aftermath: Accessory After the Fact; The Requirements of Coups D'État; more.

See all Editorial Reviews

Product Details

* Paperback: 344 pages

* Publisher: Adventures Unlimited Press (March 1, 2011)

* Language: English

* ISBN-10: 1935487183

* ISBN-13: 978-1935487180

* Product Dimensions: 8.9 x 6 x 1 inches

"Lyndon was the pivotal player without whom it would not have occurred ... "

... as it occurred.

Edited by James H. Fetzer

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Guest Robert Morrow

In my opinion the key to the JFK assassination was the close ties/relationships of Lyndon Johnson and Texas oil barons Clint Murchison to the PEAK of post WWII US intelligence: Allen Dulles, Nelson Rockefeller, David Rockefeller, John J. McCloy and George Herbert Walker Bush (then age 39) who got escalated up the power ladder due to close family ties with Allen Dulles. Think of Allen Dulles as "Uncle Allen" to GHW Bush. Henry Kissinger, then age 40, a peer of Bushes, may also have been involved. GHW Bush and Kissinger were running the elite Pegasus assassination squads in the 1980's (google Chip Tatun Pegasus).

I don't see how anyone can credibly speak on the JFK assassination and leave Vice President Lyndon Johnson out of the planning of it. CIA/military/mafia did the killing. LBJ and his close friend and neighbor of 19 years J. Edgar Hoover did the cover up along with Allen Dulles really running the Warren Commission farce.

The JFK assassination was a full blown coup d'etat.

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In the study of historical events of this magnitude, we are attempting to explain how and why they occurred in their particularity as unique incidents in history. So I certainly agree with Charles Drago that Lyndon was the pivotal player without whom it would not have occurred as it actually did occur! So perhaps we are bridging the divide between us. A new book has just appeared, which I have not read yet, but it looks very interesting and I am sure many will want to read it. So I am introducing a new thread to promote discussion:

LBJ and the Conspiracy to Kill Kennedy: A Coalescence of Interests (2011)

Joseph P. Farrell

http://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Conspiracy-Kill-Kennedy-Coalescence/dp/1935487183/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1297897870&sr=1-2

Product Description

Best-selling, Oxford-educated investigative author Joseph P. Farrell takes on the Kennedy assassination and the involvement of Lyndon Baines Johnson and the Texas "machine” that he controlled. Farrell says that a coalescence of interests in the military industrial complex, the CIA, and Lyndon Baines Johnson's powerful and corrupt political machine in Texas led to the event culminating in the assassination. Without the help of the Dallas police chief and others of the Texas underworld, including Jack Ruby, the Kennedy assassination could not have taken place. Farrell analyzes the data as only he can, and comes to some astonishing conclusions. Topics include: Oswald, the FBI, and the CIA: Hoover's Concern of a Second Oswald; Oswald and the Anti-Castro Cubans; The Mafia; Hoover, Johnson, and the Mob; The FBI, the Secret Service, Hoover, and Johnson; The CIA and "Murder Incorporated”; Ruby's Bizarre Behavior; The French Connection and Permindex; Big Oil; The Military; Disturbing Datasets, Doppelgängers, Duplicates and Discrepancies; Two Caskets, Two (or was that Three?) Ambulances, One Body: The Case of David S. Lifton; Two (or is that Three?) Faces of Oswald; Too Many (or Was That Too Few?) Bullets; Too Many Films, with Too Many, or Too Few, Frames; The Dead Witnesses: Jack Zangretti, Maurice Brooks Gatlin, John Garret "Gary” Underhill, Guy F. Bannister, Jr., Mary Pinchot Meyer, Rose Cheramie, Dorothy Mae Killgallen, Congressman Hale Boggs; The Alchemy of the Assassination: Ritual Magic and Murder, Masonic Symbolism, and the Darkest Players in the Death of JFK; LBJ and the Planning of the Texas Trip; LBJ: A Study in Character, Connections, and Cabals; LBJ and the Aftermath: Accessory After the Fact; The Requirements of Coups D'État; more.

See all Editorial Reviews

Product Details

* Paperback: 344 pages

* Publisher: Adventures Unlimited Press (March 1, 2011)

* Language: English

* ISBN-10: 1935487183

* ISBN-13: 978-1935487180

* Product Dimensions: 8.9 x 6 x 1 inches

"Lyndon was the pivotal player without whom it would not have occurred ... "

... as it occurred.

The author has a website: http://gizadeathstar.com/

Joseph Farrell is interviewed about the book: http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/34727778

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First, let me state for the record that I have only made a fast and cursory review of this book; when time permits, I will read it more thoroughly. But my first take on it is as follows:

While Mr. Farrell seems to come to a quasi-conclusion that Johnson was behind the assassination, he then waters that down by including him as only one of the many other groups that have been implicated, in ". . .his essential role at the center of it all". (p. 4). Again, at p. 294, he says "Lyndon Johnson is tied to all of them and only Johnson would have had the authority both before and after the assassination to order the Secret Service and other Federal agencies to lift normal security protocols and to tamper with the evidence, as he clearly did." So far, so good.

But it might be helpful if you went to the following link, making sure your speakers are on, before going any further. . .

In addition to the list of all the "Usual Suspects" we now add such phenomena as alchemy, UFO people, the Occult, Freemasons (Hoover, James Webb and others) and, through that group, many former Nazis some of whom (Werner Von Braun) were now employed by that very suspicious bunch of engineers at NASA. Oh yes, let us not forget capitalism itself, which permitted, according to Mr. Farrell, ". . . one individual, acting in the capacity of the corporate person and at the pinnacles of corporate power, can damn the whole. We know the doctrine well, for it is the doctrine at the core of western Christendom: original sin, and Adam is in that doctrine the original corporate person. . . It is this doctrine that is the basis of all occult and magical working of the ritual sacrifice in general, and in particular the alchemical transformation of the American consciousness that played itself out that day in Dealey Plaza, involving all in American's "original sin" by the act of consent. Such power cannot be had nor exercised without the presupposition of the corporate person who stands, as one, for all."

Well, excuse me, Mr. Farrell, but having given your book admittedly only a "quick read" I must admit that it leaves me cold. The conclusion of your book was not Lyndon Baines Johnson, acting as the key provocateur, who caused the assassination of John F. Kennedy to happen, but that all these other "otherworldly" phenomena, based upon "deep parapolitical powers that planned and executed the Kennedy assassination" and the "original sin" of the American people--and using as a springboard the capitalist system of the Western world, were the real cause.

I expect that this book will be lauded by the folks at "Deep Politics Forum" (except for the fact that LBJ's name in the title will no doubt be one strike against it). Meanwhile, it is now placed at the bottom of my reading list so I do not expect to comment further on it for awhile.

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In my opinion the key to the JFK assassination was the close ties/relationships of Lyndon Johnson and Texas oil barons Clint Murchison to the PEAK of post WWII US intelligence: Allen Dulles, Nelson Rockefeller, David Rockefeller, John J. McCloy and George Herbert Walker Bush (then age 39) who got escalated up the power ladder due to close family ties with Allen Dulles. Think of Allen Dulles as "Uncle Allen" to GHW Bush. Henry Kissinger, then age 40, a peer of Bushes, may also have been involved. GHW Bush and Kissinger were running the elite Pegasus assassination squads in the 1980's (google Chip Tatun Pegasus).

I don't see how anyone can credibly speak on the JFK assassination and leave Vice President Lyndon Johnson out of the planning of it. CIA/military/mafia did the killing. LBJ and his close friend and neighbor of 19 years J. Edgar Hoover did the cover up along with Allen Dulles really running the Warren Commission farce.

The JFK assassination was a full blown coup d'etat.

I do not always agree with Morrow, but I find no fault with his above posting.

Jack

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Egad, Phil! I can't believe that any serious scholar would include a paragraph

like this in a study of the assassination of JFK I am completely dumbfounded.

First, let me state for the record that I have only made a fast and cursory review of this book; when time permits, I will read it more thoroughly. But my first take on it is as follows:

While Mr. Farrell seems to come to a quasi-conclusion that Johnson was behind the assassination, he then waters that down by including him as only one of the many other groups that have been implicated, in ". . .his essential role at the center of it all". (p. 4). Again, at p. 294, he says "Lyndon Johnson is tied to all of them and only Johnson would have had the authority both before and after the assassination to order the Secret Service and other Federal agencies to lift normal security protocols and to tamper with the evidence, as he clearly did." So far, so good.

But it might be helpful if you went to the following link, making sure your speakers are on, before going any further. . .

In addition to the list of all the "Usual Suspects" we now add such phenomena as alchemy, UFO people, the Occult, Freemasons (Hoover, James Webb and others) and, through that group, many former Nazis some of whom (Werner Von Braun) were now employed by that very suspicious bunch of engineers at NASA. Oh yes, let us not forget capitalism itself, which permitted, according to Mr. Farrell, ". . . one individual, acting in the capacity of the corporate person and at the pinnacles of corporate power, can damn the whole. We know the doctrine well, for it is the doctrine at the core of western Christendom: original sin, and Adam is in that doctrine the original corporate person. . . It is this doctrine that is the basis of all occult and magical working of the ritual sacrifice in general, and in particular the alchemical transformation of the American consciousness that played itself out that day in Dealey Plaza, involving all in American's "original sin" by the act of consent. Such power cannot be had nor exercised without the presupposition of the corporate person who stands, as one, for all."

Well, excuse me, Mr. Farrell, but having given your book admittedly only a "quick read" I must admit that it leaves me cold. The conclusion of your book was not Lyndon Baines Johnson, acting as the key provocateur, who caused the assassination of John F. Kennedy to happen, but that all these other "otherworldly" phenomena, based upon "deep parapolitical powers that planned and executed the Kennedy assassination" and the "original sin" of the American people--and using as a springboard the capitalist system of the Western world, were the real cause.

I expect that this book will be lauded by the folks at "Deep Politics Forum" (except for the fact that LBJ's name in the title will no doubt be one strike against it). Meanwhile, it is now placed at the bottom of my reading list so I do not expect to comment further on it for awhile.

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In my opinion the key to the JFK assassination was the close ties/relationships of Lyndon Johnson and Texas oil barons Clint Murchison to the PEAK of post WWII US intelligence: Allen Dulles, Nelson Rockefeller, David Rockefeller, John J. McCloy and George Herbert Walker Bush (then age 39) who got escalated up the power ladder due to close family ties with Allen Dulles. Think of Allen Dulles as "Uncle Allen" to GHW Bush. Henry Kissinger, then age 40, a peer of Bushes, may also have been involved. GHW Bush and Kissinger were running the elite Pegasus assassination squads in the 1980's (google Chip Tatun Pegasus).

I don't see how anyone can credibly speak on the JFK assassination and leave Vice President Lyndon Johnson out of the planning of it. CIA/military/mafia did the killing. LBJ and his close friend and neighbor of 19 years J. Edgar Hoover did the cover up along with Allen Dulles really running the Warren Commission farce.

The JFK assassination was a full blown coup d'etat.

I do not always agree with Morrow, but I find no fault with his above posting.

Jack

And I do too, Jack, all of those named individuals and specific organizations were involved, just as Robert laid it out.

Egad, Phil! I can't believe that any serious scholar would include a paragraph

like this in a study of the assassination of JFK I am completely dumbfounded.

Jim, I don't think my previous comment is in any way at odds with anything else I've ever said about the assassination, and in many ways, IMHO, it is also consistent with what you have said. For example, when you posted something to the effect that the guilt ultimately goes back to the specific individuals who were party to it, not just the "invisible government" which certainly had a role in the background (I remember you used the term "disembody", as in "you can't disembody the acts from the individuals" (paraphrased). But that "invisible government" was/is itself the creation of a number of specific individuals, first and foremost was Allen Dulles, one and the same actual human who had so much to do with pre and post assassination acts. Did I say anywhere that certain people who were members of any of these groups (e.g. U.S. military, ONI, CIA, or Permindex, etc. were not involved? No. All I'm saying here (and again, I reserve "final thoughts" on this book pending my actually reading it in its entirety) is that Farrell has gone just a tad further than that in blaming capitalism, the Masons, the Occult, UFO watchers et. al. for the murder, and the rest of us for our so called "original sin" for allowing it to happen. Stretching the blame that far is just a bit "over the top" for my tastes, because, Dammit, I had nothing to do with it and I think no one else here (hopefully) did either, yet that seems to be his argument. If I am misinterpreting it due to my "fast read" I will retract any/all of this that I have misstated.

My point was that he seems to be wanting to divvy up the blame amongst a lot of other people, organizations and phenomena ("alchemy" and the "Occult"? not to mention "Original Sin" and "capitalism"!) Well, I say "baloney" to all of that, because all it does is ensure that the blame for the crime of the century is never assessed to the specific individuals who had anything to do with executing it. Which, now that I think of it, is exactly what some folks over at DPF seem to prefer.

I know you won't mince words with your analysis of my interpretation; that's fine, I'll respect your opinion just the same as before, whether or not we agree on the basics.

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Phil,

We may have had a miscommunication. What Robert said was fine.

I was alluding to the stuff about UFOs, aliens, and the occult that

appears to be prominent in this new book by Farrell, which looks

to me as though it is intended to create confusion and more than

a little obfuscation between your work and his. Thus my tentative

diagnosis is the Farrell book is meant to undermine MASTERMIND.

Jim

To the tune of "Twilight Zone"

In addition to the list of all the "Usual Suspects" we now add such phenomena as alchemy, UFO people, the Occult, Freemasons (Hoover, James Webb and others) and, through that group, many former Nazis some of whom (Werner Von Braun) were now employed by that very suspicious bunch of engineers at NASA. Oh yes, let us not forget capitalism itself, which permitted, according to Mr. Farrell, ". . . one individual, acting in the capacity of the corporate person and at the pinnacles of corporate power, can damn the whole. We know the doctrine well, for it is the doctrine at the core of western Christendom: original sin, and Adam is in that doctrine the original corporate person. . . It is this doctrine that is the basis of all occult and magical working of the ritual sacrifice in general, and in particular the alchemical transformation of the American consciousness that played itself out that day in Dealey Plaza, involving all in American's "original sin" by the act of consent. Such power cannot be had nor exercised without the presupposition of the corporate person who stands, as one, for all."

In my opinion the key to the JFK assassination was the close ties/relationships of Lyndon Johnson and Texas oil barons Clint Murchison to the PEAK of post WWII US intelligence: Allen Dulles, Nelson Rockefeller, David Rockefeller, John J. McCloy and George Herbert Walker Bush (then age 39) who got escalated up the power ladder due to close family ties with Allen Dulles. Think of Allen Dulles as "Uncle Allen" to GHW Bush. Henry Kissinger, then age 40, a peer of Bushes, may also have been involved. GHW Bush and Kissinger were running the elite Pegasus assassination squads in the 1980's (google Chip Tatun Pegasus).

I don't see how anyone can credibly speak on the JFK assassination and leave Vice President Lyndon Johnson out of the planning of it. CIA/military/mafia did the killing. LBJ and his close friend and neighbor of 19 years J. Edgar Hoover did the cover up along with Allen Dulles really running the Warren Commission farce.

The JFK assassination was a full blown coup d'etat.

I do not always agree with Morrow, but I find no fault with his above posting.

Jack

And I do too, Jack, all of those named individuals and specific organizations were involved, just as Robert laid it out.

Egad, Phil! I can't believe that any serious scholar would include a paragraph

like this in a study of the assassination of JFK I am completely dumbfounded.

Jim, I don't think my previous comment is in any way at odds with anything else I've ever said about the assassination, and in many ways, IMHO, it is also consistent with what you have said. For example, when you posted something to the effect that the guilt ultimately goes back to the specific individuals who were party to it, not just the "invisible government" which certainly had a role in the background (I remember you used the term "disembody", as in "you can't disembody the acts from the individuals" (paraphrased). But that "invisible government" was/is itself the creation of a number of specific individuals, first and foremost was Allen Dulles, one and the same actual human who had so much to do with pre and post assassination acts. Did I say anywhere that certain people who were members of any of these groups (e.g. U.S. military, ONI, CIA, or Permindex, etc. were not involved? No. All I'm saying here (and again, I reserve "final thoughts" on this book pending my actually reading it in its entirety) is that Farrell has gone just a tad further than that in blaming capitalism, the Masons, the Occult, UFO watchers et. al. for the murder, and the rest of us for our so called "original sin" for allowing it to happen. Stretching the blame that far is just a bit "over the top" for my tastes, because, Dammit, I had nothing to do with it and I think no one else here (hopefully) did either, yet that seems to be his argument. If I am misinterpreting it due to my "fast read" I will retract any/all of this that I have misstated.

My point was that he seems to be wanting to divvy up the blame amongst a lot of other people, organizations and phenomena ("alchemy" and the "Occult"? not to mention "Original Sin" and "capitalism"!) Well, I say "baloney" to all of that, because all it does is ensure that the blame for the crime of the century is never assessed to the specific individuals who had anything to do with executing it. Which, now that I think of it, is exactly what some folks over at DPF seem to prefer.

I know you won't mince words with your analysis of my interpretation; that's fine, I'll respect your opinion just the same as before, whether or not we agree on the basics.

Edited by James H. Fetzer

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First, let me state for the record that I have only made a fast and cursory review of this book; when time permits, I will read it more thoroughly. But my first take on it is as follows:

While Mr. Farrell seems to come to a quasi-conclusion that Johnson was behind the assassination, he then waters that down by including him as only one of the many other groups that have been implicated, in ". . .his essential role at the center of it all". (p. 4). Again, at p. 294, he says "Lyndon Johnson is tied to all of them and only Johnson would have had the authority both before and after the assassination to order the Secret Service and other Federal agencies to lift normal security protocols and to tamper with the evidence, as he clearly did." So far, so good.

But it might be helpful if you went to the following link, making sure your speakers are on, before going any further. . .

In addition to the list of all the "Usual Suspects" we now add such phenomena as alchemy, UFO people, the Occult, Freemasons (Hoover, James Webb and others) and, through that group, many former Nazis some of whom (Werner Von Braun) were now employed by that very suspicious bunch of engineers at NASA. Oh yes, let us not forget capitalism itself, which permitted, according to Mr. Farrell, ". . . one individual, acting in the capacity of the corporate person and at the pinnacles of corporate power, can damn the whole. We know the doctrine well, for it is the doctrine at the core of western Christendom: original sin, and Adam is in that doctrine the original corporate person. . . It is this doctrine that is the basis of all occult and magical working of the ritual sacrifice in general, and in particular the alchemical transformation of the American consciousness that played itself out that day in Dealey Plaza, involving all in American's "original sin" by the act of consent. Such power cannot be had nor exercised without the presupposition of the corporate person who stands, as one, for all."

Well, excuse me, Mr. Farrell, but having given your book admittedly only a "quick read" I must admit that it leaves me cold. The conclusion of your book was not Lyndon Baines Johnson, acting as the key provocateur, who caused the assassination of John F. Kennedy to happen, but that all these other "otherworldly" phenomena, based upon "deep parapolitical powers that planned and executed the Kennedy assassination" and the "original sin" of the American people--and using as a springboard the capitalist system of the Western world, were the real cause.

I expect that this book will be lauded by the folks at "Deep Politics Forum" (except for the fact that LBJ's name in the title will no doubt be one strike against it). Meanwhile, it is now placed at the bottom of my reading list so I do not expect to comment further on it for awhile.

He makes the same points in the radio interview. I was very unimpressed with him. If one looks at his past he has never shown any interest in the JFK case. He admits he wrote the book as a favour for his publisher after the original author dropped out. He says his publisher was upset because he had already paid for the "front cover artwork". It was therefore a rush job. He says that the most important evidence that he discovered for the conspiracy was the Torbitt document (William Torbitt is the pseudonymous author of Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal that was first published in 1970). As researchers know this document is highly controversial and could never be used as "evidence" by any respectable researcher.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorbitt.htm

Farrell boasts about studying at Oxford University but it is clear his subject was not history. In the radio interview he gave the impression that "association" is the same as "evidence". He provides no new evidence and all his research appears to be from the internet (no doubt a lot of it came from this forum). Farrell is really only interested in linking the JFK case to his theories concerning the influence of "Nazis" on American culture and his view on UFOs and aliens.

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