NASA, how many conspiritors would it have taken?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Being a complete novice on photographic evaluation, and most of the technical aspects of the Moon landings, one pertinent question, of a different nature does occur to me. Namely, just how many people would have had to be involved in any attempted hoax. And how does this alter the likelyhood of said hoax working?

1, All Astronauts involved in the missions, and their understudies/stand-ins

2, A film crew, director, editors, set dressers, designers, props, camera crew, writers, boom operators, lighting/electrical, catering, etc, etc.

3, NASA ground crew, from mission controller downwards.

4, Many in the Nixon administration.

5, And in all likelyhood, as they monitored all NASA missions, the Soviet space agency, and their government.

If I have missed any group perhaps Evan or Steve could enlighten me. That looks like SOME conspiracy, and SOME continuing cover-up

[Steve Ulman]

Stephen-

Some additional groups:

4a. Don’t forget the Johnson administration as well. Most of the planning, design, and construction occurred under Johnson, not Nixon. Nixon got the glory of Apollo 11, but inherited it from LBJ.

5a. Absolutely the Soviets. They monitored everything we did and would know if we faked it. And they would have gained great prestige in the world community if they blew the whistle.

6. Thousands of amateur astronomers who viewed the vehicles in trans-lunar flight and HAM operators who listened to the conversations during trans-lunar flight.

7. The hundreds or thousands of geologists who have worked on the lunar samples and confirm that their origin is extraterrestrial, more specifically from the moon.

8. The engineers and some assembly personnel at the various manufacturing plants – they would have known if what they were building was the real thing, or something simply for show.

9. The untold numbers of people with proper backgrounds to understand the technology, photographs, etc. who have reviewed the record, and found it to be sound.

10. Dr. James Van Allen – He has stated that astronauts CAN safely pass through the radiation belts that carry his name. He also worked on the space program especially the trajectories through the Van Allen Radiation belts, and is convinced that the hoax believers don’t have a clue. (I used to have his exact quote but can’t find it now.)

Evan, Craig, Len - anything Stephen or I forgot?

[Jack White]

Being a complete novice on photographic evaluation, and most of the technical aspects of the Moon landings, one pertinent question, of a different nature does occur to me. Namely, just how many people would have had to be involved in any attempted hoax.

ONLY THOSE WITH A "NEED TO KNOW".

And how does this alter the likelyhood of said hoax working?

FEW CONSPIRATORS BLOW THE WHISTLE ON THEMSELVES.

1, All Astronauts involved in the missions, and their understudies/stand-ins

CORRECT.

2, A film crew, director, editors, set dressers, designers, props, camera crew, writers, boom operators, lighting/electrical, catering, etc, etc.

CORRECT. BUT NOT ALL WERE NECESSARILY CONSPIRATORS. MANY LIKELY

WERE GIVEN COVER STORIES OF A "TRAINING FILM" OR SUCH.

3, NASA ground crew, from mission controller downwards.

ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FOOL MOST OF THEM.

4, Many in the Nixon administration.

NO....NOT MANY, ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. AND IT STARTED WITH

LBJ AND WAS CONTINUED BY NIXON. ONLY A FEW TOP PEOPLE KNEW THE MISSIONS

WERE IMPOSSIBLE.

5, And in all likelyhood, as they monitored all NASA missions, the Soviet space agency, and their government.

THIS IS VERY POSSIBLE, PUTTING THE US IN A VULNERABLE BLACKMAIL POSITION.

SEE THE BOOK "DARK MOON".

If I have missed any group perhaps Evan or Steve could enlighten me. That looks like SOME conspiracy, and SOME continuing cover-up

The number of WITTING CONSPIRATORS was likely fewer than a hundred. There may have

been a much larger number of UNWITTING participants who did not realize what they were

involved with. Remember, MOST OF THE FAKED PHOTOS WERE NOT RELEASED TILL 30

YEARS LATER, when many of the participants were no longer around. Too, much of the actual

work likely occurred in secret NASA installations in a foreign country, most likely Australia.

Jack

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Being a complete novice on photographic evaluation, and most of the technical aspects of the Moon landings, one pertinent question, of a different nature does occur to me. Namely, just how many people would have had to be involved in any attempted hoax.

ONLY THOSE WITH A "NEED TO KNOW".

And how does this alter the likelyhood of said hoax working?

FEW CONSPIRATORS BLOW THE WHISTLE ON THEMSELVES.

1, All Astronauts involved in the missions, and their understudies/stand-ins

CORRECT.

2, A film crew, director, editors, set dressers, designers, props, camera crew, writers, boom operators, lighting/electrical, catering, etc, etc.

CORRECT. BUT NOT ALL WERE NECESSARILY CONSPIRATORS. MANY LIKELY

WERE GIVEN COVER STORIES OF A "TRAINING FILM" OR SUCH.

ST, JACK, HOW MANY MISSIONS WERE THERE? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THAT AN ENTIRE PRODUCTION CREW, AND ANCILLIARY WORKERS WERE BLUFFED ABOUT A TRAINING FILM ON ALL THESE OCCASIONS? THAT IS STRETCHING CREDIBILITY TO BREAKING POINT, AND BEYOND.

3, NASA ground crew, from mission controller downwards.

ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FOOL MOST OF THEM.

ST, ONE QUESTION, HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE TO FOOL PEOPLE SO INTIMATELY INVOLVED WITH PROCEEDINGS, AND SO TECHNICALLY ASTUTE, NOT ONCE BUT ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS. THERE'S THAT CREDIBILITY PROBLEM AGAIN.

4, Many in the Nixon administration.

NO....NOT MANY, ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. AND IT STARTED WITH

LBJ AND WAS CONTINUED BY NIXON. ONLY A FEW TOP PEOPLE KNEW THE MISSIONS

WERE IMPOSSIBLE.

ST, JACK, I WORK IN A LARGE INSTITUTION THE NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE, BELIEVE ME IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP SECRETS OF EVEN A SMALL SORT, HUMANS, BY THEIR NATURE GOSSIP, BRAG AND SOMETIMES UNWITINGLY GIVE THE GAME AWAY, YET NO-ONE FROM ALL THESE AREAS, GOVERNMENT, AGENCIES, NASA, THE PRODUCTION UNITS ET AL HAS EVER, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, SPOKE OPENLY ABOUT THE MOON LANDINGS BEING FAKED. THIS GOES AGAINST ALL MY PREVIOUS UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN NATURE.

5, And in all likelyhood, as they monitored all NASA missions, the Soviet space agency, and their government.

THIS IS VERY POSSIBLE, PUTTING THE US IN A VULNERABLE BLACKMAIL POSITION.

SEE THE BOOK "DARK MOON".

ST, JACK, I WILL FAMILIARISE MYSELF WITH THE WORK. BUT ALL I CAN SAY IS IF THE USSR DID HOLD AMERICA OVER A BARREL, I CANT IMAGINE WHAT IT WAS THAT STOPPED THEM EXPOSING THE HATED YANKIES.

If I have missed any group perhaps Evan or Steve could enlighten me. That looks like SOME conspiracy, and SOME continuing cover-up

The number of WITTING CONSPIRATORS was likely fewer than a hundred. There may have

been a much larger number of UNWITTING participants who did not realize what they were

involved with. Remember, MOST OF THE FAKED PHOTOS WERE NOT RELEASED TILL 30

YEARS LATER, when many of the participants were no longer around. Too, much of the actual

work likely occurred in secret NASA installations in a foreign country, most likely Australia.

Jack

[Jack White]

Being a complete novice on photographic evaluation, and most of the technical aspects of the Moon landings, one pertinent question, of a different nature does occur to me. Namely, just how many people would have had to be involved in any attempted hoax.

ONLY THOSE WITH A "NEED TO KNOW".

And how does this alter the likelyhood of said hoax working?

FEW CONSPIRATORS BLOW THE WHISTLE ON THEMSELVES.

1, All Astronauts involved in the missions, and their understudies/stand-ins

CORRECT.

2, A film crew, director, editors, set dressers, designers, props, camera crew, writers, boom operators, lighting/electrical, catering, etc, etc.

CORRECT. BUT NOT ALL WERE NECESSARILY CONSPIRATORS. MANY LIKELY

WERE GIVEN COVER STORIES OF A "TRAINING FILM" OR SUCH.

ST, JACK, HOW MANY MISSIONS WERE THERE? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THAT AN ENTIRE PRODUCTION CREW, AND ANCILLIARY WORKERS WERE BLUFFED ABOUT A TRAINING FILM ON ALL THESE OCCASIONS? THAT IS STRETCHING CREDIBILITY TO BREAKING POINT, AND BEYOND.

3, NASA ground crew, from mission controller downwards.

ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FOOL MOST OF THEM.

ST, ONE QUESTION, HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE TO FOOL PEOPLE SO INTIMATELY INVOLVED WITH PROCEEDINGS, AND SO TECHNICALLY ASTUTE, NOT ONCE BUT ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS. THERE'S THAT CREDIBILITY PROBLEM AGAIN.

4, Many in the Nixon administration.

NO....NOT MANY, ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. AND IT STARTED WITH

LBJ AND WAS CONTINUED BY NIXON. ONLY A FEW TOP PEOPLE KNEW THE MISSIONS

WERE IMPOSSIBLE.

ST, JACK, I WORK IN A LARGE INSTITUTION THE NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE, BELIEVE ME IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP SECRETS OF EVEN A SMALL SORT, HUMANS, BY THEIR NATURE GOSSIP, BRAG AND SOMETIMES UNWITINGLY GIVE THE GAME AWAY, YET NO-ONE FROM ALL THESE AREAS, GOVERNMENT, AGENCIES, NASA, THE PRODUCTION UNITS ET AL HAS EVER, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, SPOKE OPENLY ABOUT THE MOON LANDINGS BEING FAKED. THIS GOES AGAINST ALL MY PREVIOUS UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN NATURE.

5, And in all likelyhood, as they monitored all NASA missions, the Soviet space agency, and their government.

THIS IS VERY POSSIBLE, PUTTING THE US IN A VULNERABLE BLACKMAIL POSITION.

SEE THE BOOK "DARK MOON".

ST, JACK, I WILL FAMILIARISE MYSELF WITH THE WORK. BUT ALL I CAN SAY IS IF THE USSR DID HOLD AMERICA OVER A BARREL, I CANT IMAGINE WHAT IT WAS THAT STOPPED THEM EXPOSING THE HATED YANKIES.

If I have missed any group perhaps Evan or Steve could enlighten me. That looks like SOME conspiracy, and SOME continuing cover-up

The number of WITTING CONSPIRATORS was likely fewer than a hundred. There may have

been a much larger number of UNWITTING participants who did not realize what they were

involved with. Remember, MOST OF THE FAKED PHOTOS WERE NOT RELEASED TILL 30

YEARS LATER, when many of the participants were no longer around. Too, much of the actual

work likely occurred in secret NASA installations in a foreign country, most likely Australia.

Jack

Steve...your incredulity is quite understandable and is the major stumbling

block to "ordinary" people bringing themselves to believe in "conspiracies".

Researcher Larry Hancock wrote a JFK book on the subject...SOMEONE

WOULD HAVE TALKED.

Let me suggest to you that if you were a participant in a heinous crime like

the JFK assassination, would you TALK and implicate yourself? Only if you

were given immunity from prosecution, I daresay.

Suppose you had a lot to lose by TALKING, like employment, pensions,

threat of imprisionment, ridicule, lawsuits, bodily harm, harm to your

family, etc....would you talk?

Suppose you were a marginal participant who was taken in by a cover

story and had no proof...what would you have to gain by TALKING?

I too share your incredulity in the case of 911...I cannot imagine anyone

of conscience participating in the murder of 3000 people willingly, or

not exposing the truth if they know it...but there are plenty of people

with wicked personalities.

To people who think like you do, I say...just look at the evidence.

Does it show something unbelievable happened? The evidence MUST

override theories about what people would or would not do. What you

are saying is that YOU would not do heinous things...but there are

thousands of people not like you or me...without conscience.

Jack

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Being a complete novice on photographic evaluation, and most of the technical aspects of the Moon landings, one pertinent question, of a different nature does occur to me. Namely, just how many people would have had to be involved in any attempted hoax.

ONLY THOSE WITH A "NEED TO KNOW".

And how does this alter the likelyhood of said hoax working?

FEW CONSPIRATORS BLOW THE WHISTLE ON THEMSELVES.

1, All Astronauts involved in the missions, and their understudies/stand-ins

CORRECT.

2, A film crew, director, editors, set dressers, designers, props, camera crew, writers, boom operators, lighting/electrical, catering, etc, etc.

CORRECT. BUT NOT ALL WERE NECESSARILY CONSPIRATORS. MANY LIKELY

WERE GIVEN COVER STORIES OF A "TRAINING FILM" OR SUCH.

ST, JACK, HOW MANY MISSIONS WERE THERE? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SUGGESTING THAT AN ENTIRE PRODUCTION CREW, AND ANCILLIARY WORKERS WERE BLUFFED ABOUT A TRAINING FILM ON ALL THESE OCCASIONS? THAT IS STRETCHING CREDIBILITY TO BREAKING POINT, AND BEYOND.

3, NASA ground crew, from mission controller downwards.

ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. IT WAS POSSIBLE TO FOOL MOST OF THEM.

ST, ONE QUESTION, HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE TO FOOL PEOPLE SO INTIMATELY INVOLVED WITH PROCEEDINGS, AND SO TECHNICALLY ASTUTE, NOT ONCE BUT ON AT LEAST FOUR OCCASIONS. THERE'S THAT CREDIBILITY PROBLEM AGAIN.

4, Many in the Nixon administration.

NO....NOT MANY, ONLY THOSE WITH A NEED TO KNOW. AND IT STARTED WITH

LBJ AND WAS CONTINUED BY NIXON. ONLY A FEW TOP PEOPLE KNEW THE MISSIONS

WERE IMPOSSIBLE.

ST, JACK, I WORK IN A LARGE INSTITUTION THE NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE, BELIEVE ME IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP SECRETS OF EVEN A SMALL SORT, HUMANS, BY THEIR NATURE GOSSIP, BRAG AND SOMETIMES UNWITINGLY GIVE THE GAME AWAY, YET NO-ONE FROM ALL THESE AREAS, GOVERNMENT, AGENCIES, NASA, THE PRODUCTION UNITS ET AL HAS EVER, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, SPOKE OPENLY ABOUT THE MOON LANDINGS BEING FAKED. THIS GOES AGAINST ALL MY PREVIOUS UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN NATURE.

5, And in all likelyhood, as they monitored all NASA missions, the Soviet space agency, and their government.

THIS IS VERY POSSIBLE, PUTTING THE US IN A VULNERABLE BLACKMAIL POSITION.

SEE THE BOOK "DARK MOON".

ST, JACK, I WILL FAMILIARISE MYSELF WITH THE WORK. BUT ALL I CAN SAY IS IF THE USSR DID HOLD AMERICA OVER A BARREL, I CANT IMAGINE WHAT IT WAS THAT STOPPED THEM EXPOSING THE HATED YANKIES.

If I have missed any group perhaps Evan or Steve could enlighten me. That looks like SOME conspiracy, and SOME continuing cover-up

The number of WITTING CONSPIRATORS was likely fewer than a hundred. There may have

been a much larger number of UNWITTING participants who did not realize what they were

involved with. Remember, MOST OF THE FAKED PHOTOS WERE NOT RELEASED TILL 30

YEARS LATER, when many of the participants were no longer around. Too, much of the actual

work likely occurred in secret NASA installations in a foreign country, most likely Australia.

Jack

Steve...your incredulity is quite understandable and is the major stumbling

block to "ordinary" people bringing themselves to believe in "conspiracies".

Researcher Larry Hancock wrote a JFK book on the subject...SOMEONE

WOULD HAVE TALKED.

Let me suggest to you that if you were a participant in a heinous crime like

the JFK assassination, would you TALK and implicate yourself? Only if you

were given immunity from prosecution, I daresay.

Suppose you had a lot to lose by TALKING, like employment, pensions,

threat of imprisionment, ridicule, lawsuits, bodily harm, harm to your

family, etc....would you talk?

Suppose you were a marginal participant who was taken in by a cover

story and had no proof...what would you have to gain by TALKING?

I too share your incredulity in the case of 911...I cannot imagine anyone

of conscience participating in the murder of 3000 people willingly, or

not exposing the truth if they know it...but there are plenty of people

with wicked personalities.

To people who think like you do, I say...just look at the evidence.

Does it show something unbelievable happened? The evidence MUST

override theories about what people would or would not do. What you

are saying is that YOU would not do heinous things...but there are

thousands of people not like you or me...without conscience.

Jack

Jack, you know full well where I stand on JFK, killed as a result of a government conspiracy, at the very highest levels, does this make me incredulous. I work in the Psychology dept of a NHS Hospital, much of my work is done with individuals suffering from Psycopathic (american-sociopathic) personality, i can assure you I understand, better than most, what the human mind is capable of conceiving, and carrying out I probably see more "evil" people in a year, than you have seen in your lifetime. believe me I have street smarts....As regards the evidence overriding theories I could not agree more, and as far as I am concerned the evidence in this case overwelmingly proves that Americans landed on the Moon.

[Michael Hogan]

Jack, you know full well where I stand on JFK, killed as a result of a government conspiracy, at the very highest levels, does this make me incredulous......As regards the evidence overriding theories I could not agree more, and as far as I am concerned the evidence in this case overwelmingly proves that Americans landed on the Moon.

As the JFK assassination shows, there is a vast amount of evidence of conspiracy that resides outside of the realm of photographic evidence. Although photographic evidence in the Kennedy murder may indicate conspiracy, researchers have discovered much more, and pried incriminating evidence from classified government files. Countless people that witnessed conspiratorial acts have gone on record in one form or another.

Look at all the non-photographic evidence that has surfaced not only in the JFK case, but other conspiracies and alleged conspiracies as well.

This non-photographic evidence seems to be strangely absent in the Apollo mission. If the mission was staged, how is it that so little has been exposed? This alludes to Stephen's original post and Steve's followup.

At the risk of repeating myself, if there was a conspiracy to falsify the moon mission how can it be that unlike every other conspiracy, other evidence has not surfaced? Declassified government files exist on Pearl Harbor, UFOs, the CIA and other top-secret intelligence agencies, MLK, RFK, Watergate, Iran-Contra and everything else. Where are the Apollo files?

With all the conspiracy researchers out there, why have none of them been able to uncover corroborating evidence?

It's just hard to believe.

Do I trust NASA? No. While this may overstate the case, I quote Peter Levenda:

NASA was created around the dark genius of a coven of Nazi scientists who first tested their designs and discoveries on the civilian population of London during the Blitz.....

Clearly, whoever was working with or for NASA in the 1950s and 1960s had to be able to accept the presence-let alone the dominance-of the many Nazis on the team and, as we have seen in previous volumes, those Nazis would not have been able to emigrate safely to the United States much less serve in positions of tremendous prestige and authority if it were not for the unwavering support of Allen Dulles and Richard Nixon. As unpalatable as this idea seems, and as outrageous as it will appear to many, the facts speak for themselves and are incontrovertible. The same men who went after spirited anti-Nazis in political campaigns, using Red-baiting and anti-Semitism as their weapons, also did their best to defend the active involvement of committed Nazis in the most sensitive, secret caverns of American military technology, aviation, medicine, and intelligence.....

All American space research before October 1, 1958....was in the hands of military, or under military contract at places like the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which would become part of NASA very quickly. All investigation of the UFO phenomenon was in the hands of the FBI, the CIA, or the military. And the military departments for space research were dominated by the Nazis they had brought over after 1945, Nazis who would eventually become an integral part of NASA, an agency that was created in response to the launching of the first earth-orbit satellite by the Soviet Union in 1957, Sputnik. Who can extricate from their memories of America's early space programs the image of affable Wehrner von Braun, a man who once wore the uniform of the Third Reich?

Although much of it has been discredited as disinformation, Levenda's assertions above bring to mind The Torbitt Document; Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal. Subtitled NASA, Nazis, & JFK, the author made some rather startling claims about NASA involvement in a variety of top-secret and illegal activities. Further discoveries by researchers have uncovered confirmation for some of Torbitt's (David Copeland's) claims.

Much of what is seen as anomalies in the Apollo photographs comes down to subjective perception by those studying the photos .... No two people will see the same thing, no matter what they may be looking at ..... We all have our own different types of mindsets and belief systems and some of us are even predisposed to see things a certain way .

Duane's observation seems to hold true with the Zapruder film. Perhaps no single piece of photographic evidence has been analyzed more, and yet there is no agreement on exactly what it does or does not show. Incidentally, I admire the tone that Duane has contributed to this discussion. I'm glad others have responded in kind.

Jack White's observations on why people are reluctant to talk about certain things are well taken, but even in a case like the JFK assassination some of them ultimately did. When it comes to the Apollo mission, it hasn't happened.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Michael Hogan

[Michael Hogan]

Mr. Hogan ... That was an interesting post about nasa's Nazi history ... Have you ever seen the documentary called 'Secret Space ' ? ... It discusses much of nasa's hidden history and why they are not to be trusted ... If you haven't seen it and are interested in doing so , I will post the link to it here .

Curiosity got the best of me and I couldn't wait. Google took me here: http://www.secretspacedvd.com/

Is this the link you had Duane? If you have another, I would be glad to look at it also.