Joel D. Gruhn

That's right. O'Donnell believed shots, or at least audible gunshot sounds, had been fired from the GK. 

Beyond dispute, many earwitnesses placed audible gunshots as coming from the GK.

In addition, many witnesses (including law enforcement officers and veterans) smelled gunsmoke in DP, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA. 

Others placed gunshots as coming from the TSBD.

Of course, you can have audible gunshots coming from both locations, thus creating confusion.  There may have been other gunshots, from weapons using silencers. 

-----------

I have read that the primary concern of a sniper is exfiltration after firing.  The GK is very exposed to DP.

Wouldn't an experienced planner/sniper want to have an accomplice plant a few squibs on the GN to make smoke and sound, to distract the crowd? There is evidence that the CIA used squibs in Saigon to redirect attention during Buddhist protests.

Wouldn't an experienced planner/sniper want to use the advantages of height and concealment offered by the buildings behind the limousine?  We do have evidence of James Tague's injury and testimony.

What evidence do we have for assuming that the sounds and smells from the GN came from a firearm?

Joel G

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

at the Dallas library

Some years ago I contacted the main Dallas library, who had a nominally priced reference/research service, who Xeroxed a few pages regarding one Stuart R. Martin for me from the 1963 City Directory. It only cost a few $$.

Richard, I am an Ancestry member. If you want me to look up anything there, I'd gladly assist. Feel free to drop me a message here

Joel D Gruhn

On 4/3/2021 at 8:02 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Richard - maybe I’m blind - where does this file come from? FBI? 
I

Paul, on C A Evans, the memo author:

From the New York Times 12/12/1964

WASHINGTON, Dec. 11 (AP)—Courtney A. Evans, assistant director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, will retire from, the bureau at the end of this month.

Mr. Evans, who has been with the bureau for 24 years, is an aide of J. Edgar Hoover, the bureau's director.

The sandy‐haired, mild‐mannered Mr. Evans is one of the F.B.I.'s more widely known men. He is known to the business world as the bureau's expert on matters financial—embezzlements, bankruptcy, confidence rackets, defalcations, and the threat of organized crime to business.

For three years he has directed the wide‐ranging operations of the bureau's special investigative division.

Joel

yes, excellent. Please let us know what you need in terms of financial support.

Joel Gruhn

b, didn't peek first

Please select one of the responses below

Choice A [ 3 ] [42.86%]

Choice B [ 1 ] [14.29%]

Choice C [ 3 ] [42.86%]

What is wrong with B?

Jack, there is an add-on to IP Board (the message board software used here) that provides a photo gallery - exactly what you want.

A full description is at http://www.invisionpower.com/products/gallery/

cost is ~ $65; it could be a central place for many photos galleries.

Having it an integral part of the board software would, in my humble opinion, make it easier to moderate.

I am wondering if we need to pass the hat.

Joel D. Gruhn

I don't agree with much of what Peter wrote, but I must defend his presence here.

If a you work on your home, and thereby increase the value of your property, that increase is often referred to as "sweat equity"

In the case of an open forum of ideas, that sweat equity is the sharing of research by members, and their objective commentary on the subjects at hand. IMHO

I know of no other web forum where the moderators routinely fall back on justifications of "ownership". Yes - they own the server, and put up with complaints, and I respect that. But does that make it wise or legitimate to erase another person's intellectual effort utterly? retroactively? without 5 minutes warning? without allowing the author to move his work to a more stable and tolerant venue?

There is real value in the contributions made by so many qualified people here. I am grateful for the stunning knowledge and effort shown on these pages. What respect does it show to all who contribute to see an active contributor's efforts disposed of unilaterally?

The subject of this forum, the JFK Assassination Debate, is likely to inflame passions and stimulate political arguments. If we cannot all agree with the point of view of each post or contributor, can we not at least make this forum safe for diversity?

Going forward, we can make this forum more valuable by valuing the diverse, sometimes polemical, "sweat equity" of all contributors.

I formally protest the removal of Peter Lemkin. The research community has lost a great man: Rich DellaRosa, someone with ethics. Now Peter is gone from here. A really bad week for those who remember President Kennedy. Think it over, moderators.

Kathy C

not to mention Tosh Plumlee... add a score more, who in frustration will simply decide that they have better things to do. We had a valuable and unique place here to share ideas.

What happened to the Lemkin threads? I can understand them being closed but making them invisible with only fuel his sense of victimization and inevitably lead to paranoid accusations something is being covered up. In any case an announcement should have been made.

Forum:

1. A public meeting place for open discussion.

2. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

I have to agree, Len. A moderator must be moderate and accept that everyone is not going to always agree in a spirited debate, and be able to temper his/her defensiveness.

The threads were disappeared, which to anyone would feel like like censorship rather than an open forum.

My two posts were whisked away - and they were not critical of any specific individual, any more than this one is.

I think someone is perhaps feeling a little hyper-sensitive, and if that is the case they are MORE likely to get criticism for combining censorship with a total lack of transparency. I guess we are not suppose to question authority.

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

George Orwell

Joel

Brought back to add some new tidbits to this thread.

Operation Stella Polaris was named after the cruise ship Stella Polaris which moved the Finnish crpto team at the end of WWII. The movement of this team of Finns was financed by the Japanese Government. Infomation about this movement was intercepted and translated by American intelligence (John B. Hurt connection, Raliegh Call???). The Finns had been successful in breaking Soviet Codes and would be usefull to American cryptologist who were beginning a program to intercept and understand the Soviet Codes (Venona). In charge of that program were Frank Rowlett and Meredith Gardner (these same two men would later be asked to investigate Lee Harvey Oswald's personal effects for potential intelligence connections). A plan was put into effect to capture this team of Finns with the apparent approval of Calvin Bryce Hoover (who lived in Raleigh/Durmham, North Carolina at the time of the assassination of JFK)and his associate Winston Scott (Mexico City at the time of Oswald's visit). This same ship, Stella Polaris, was also used to move Soviet POW's from Norway back to the Soviet Union at the end of the War. In charge of that POW movement and scheduling the movements of the Stella Polaris was none other than Edwin Walker.

Was Lee Harvey Oswald used in connection with the interception of Soviet Codes? Why are so many people that can be tied to LHO also tied to the "Top Secrete" program to intecept and break Soviet Codes as well as being linked to the assassination or the coverup thereof?

Jim Root

Without getting into the details of cryptanalysis, it is my understanding that having even a short piece of known plaintext incorporated into a coded message drastically reduces the computer time required to break the code in a brute force attack. This is called 'gardening". As described in the Wikipedia article on Gardening (cryptanalysis):

Concievably there are many ways that a defector such as Oswald could be exploited to deliver a crib, either wittingly or unwittingly.

Joel Gruhn

I think Seamus already sent me all of this. I read it and replied to him.

Jack

Greg, I am interested if you could please post the rest for all to similarly review....

jdg

Is it ITEC or ITEK?

Did the government engage them or did CBS?

Is there anything to the "smoke on the grassy knoll", or what?

And is there a connecton between ITEC/K and the U2 camera?

Thanks,

to anybody who knows or cares,

BK

I believe it would have been Itek, a bunch of very savvy optical engineers; they designed photo reconnasence cameras such as the CORONA. I had a friend who worked there in mid '70's at the California office near Moffitt Field where they serviced the U2 cameras. They would be good at microdensitometry, where the pixels are very very small.

The wikipedia page offers a fairly complete history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itek

Joel

Bill, if there ever was a Dr. George W. Bakeman--even if he IS the son of this guy--he's the most INVISIBLE S.O.B. in history.

I mean, think about it, Bill: the sanitary engineer George W. Bakeman was in Montenegro in 1916,...he was back in Europe in 1945 with relief efforts...

from: http://www.macjannet.org/files/publication...aster/book2.pdf

"The late George Bakeman, a long-time friend from St. Cloud, was in Paris, in charge of

American Aid to France. His office loaned MacJannet a car and chauffeur, to help him complete

the film. “Workmen were putting back the stained glass windows of Chartres Cathedral, and I

got moving pictures of that,”

American Aid to France was a relief organization, previously known as American Relief for France. It dispatched over $3,000,000 in relief to France from 1940 to 1946. It's records are in the NY Public Library, but for some reason, probably innocent, access is restricted.

But couldn't they have had a son later on, say born in 1931?

Now what's the Massachusetts connection?

And what became of the daughters?

Kathleen, born 1920 -

Beryl - born 1924 -

The Massachusetts connection is that GWB was born in Newton, MA on 17 May 1889. It's clear from his passport application that at age 30 he was doing a lot of traveling for the Red Cross.

side note GWB's wife, Mary Davidson Bakeman

b. 2 Dec 1895 Ekaterinburg Russia

d. 9 Dec 1994 McLean, VA

/jdg

Bill, if there ever was a Dr. George W. Bakeman--even if he IS the son of this guy--he's the most INVISIBLE S.O.B. in history.

I believe that George W. and Mary D Bakeman had no sons. Their two daughters, Kathleen and Beryl, were born ~1920 and ~1924 respectively.

Joel

Perhaps we need a new thread title... something like "The Neverending Trial of Cyril Wecht"

Erie-based judge to preside at Wecht retrial

Friday, October 31, 2008

By Paula Reed Ward, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The retrial of former Allegheny County Coroner Dr. Cyril Wecht will be heard by U.S. District Judge Sean J. McLaughlin, who is based in Erie. The trial will be held in Pittsburgh.

Chief U.S. District Judge Donetta W. Ambrose made the assignment this afternoon.

U.S. District Judge Arthur J. Schwab was removed from the case by the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in September. The three-judge panel denied Dr. Wecht's motion to have the case against him dismissed but ordered that a new judge be appointed, saying that the process might benefit from having less rancor in the courtroom.

In May, both Dr. Wecht's attorneys and the government began working with former federal Circuit Judge Timothy K. Lewis in an attempt to reach a civil settlement in the case -- something very rare in the world of criminal justice.

However, this week, Mr. Lewis said those negotiations have broken down.

"It is my judgment that there will not be a resolution of this through mediation," he said. "It requires the commitment and shared interest of both sides, and we simply did not have that."

He would not get into the details of who wasn't committed to the process.

Without a civil settlement on the horizon, it is most likely that Dr. Wecht will proceed to a retrial on the 41 counts against him.

His first trial, which began in January, ended in a hung jury in April.

The lead prosecutor on the case, Stephen S. Stallings, has since left the U.S. attorney's office for private practice. He has been replaced by the chief of the criminal division, Leo M. Dillon.

More details in tomorrow's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

First published on October 31, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Court: Wecht can be retried, but different judge must hear the case

Cyril Wecht may have to stand for a re-trial, at the prosecutions option, but with a new judge. The old judge, Schwab, was reported to arbitrarily keep the jury empaneled after they said they were deadlocked - and appeared to be pushing them unduly for a conviction.

from the ruling:

"We will direct that Judge Schwab be relieved of further duties on this case and that the Chief Judge of the District Court assign a new judge to handle any future matters in the case including any retrial."

Full story in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The full opinion is at:

The Opinion of the 3rd Circuit

Wecht has gone through a lot.

Joel

Clearly the feds are on a mission to get Dr. Wecht.

Schwab set a new trial date for May 27.

-------------------------

The story continues, unfortunately.

Is Judge Schwab fishing for a conviction? It surely seems that way.

from http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburgh...l/s_560488.html

Wecht jurors say they are deadlocked

The jurors in the federal public corruption trial of former Allegheny County Coroner Dr. Cyril H. Wecht have indicated they are deadlocked on all counts, but will return Monday to try a final time to reach a unanimous verdict.

U.S. District Judge Arthur J. Schwab polled each juror this afternoon, and each said he or she was "hopelessly deadlocked" and that further deliberations would not help.

Before declaring a hung jury and a mistrial, Schwab asked the jurors to continue deliberating in hopes of reaching a unanimous verdict on any counts.

"I realize you are having some difficulty reaching a unanimous verdict, and that is not unusual," Schwab said before sending the jury back around 2:15 p.m. He told them there was no hurry.

It appears the jury in the Wecht trial is having difficulties - perhaps with one holdout juror?

Wecht jury continues minus-1

from http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburgh...l/s_560257.html

"U.S. District Judge Arthur J. Schwab this morning decided to go with a panel of 11, after a juror who left ill yesterday said he could not continue. The judge said Juror No. 1's doctor advised the juror that the stress of deliberations was too much for him.

This afternoon, Wecht's lawyers filed an emergency motion requesting that Schwab reverse his order to dismiss the juror -- Stanley Albright, a prison minister from East Hills. Schwab has forbidden the press from contacting Albright or any of the six alternate jurors until a verdict is rendered."

/jdg

CIA Releases Two Significant Collections of Historical Documents

Two significant collections of previously classified historical documents are now available in the CIA's FOIA Electronic Reading Room.

The first collection, widely known as the "Family Jewels," consists of almost 700 pages of responses from CIA employees to a 1973 directive from Director of Central Intelligence James Schlesinger asking them to report activities they thought might be inconsistent with the Agency's charter.

see: http://www.foia.cia.gov/

http://www.foia.cia.gov/browse_docs.asp?do...p;showPage=0001

Joel Gruhn

I like turning points... any of...

An evening with the last Neanderthal clan.

The march of British troops under Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith from Boston to Lexington and the skirmish at North Bridge in Concord MA.

The charge of the 1st Minnesota Regiment at the Battle of Gettysburg.

With Wilbur and Orville at Kitty Hawk.

/jdg

Hello Joel -- In no way do I say that the leads on "your" Olds should not be followed up on. It's very mysterious indeed, and is worth looking into. It would be great to find out if the colors match. There is no way to get the paint code from the VIN, however. That information would be on the data plate. I'm afraid that white and blue is probably a pretty popular color combination. My dad's 1958 Olds Fiesta wagon was white with blue roof/trim for example.

I just went over the taped interview with Karl to refresh my memory. He recalls the Lipski Oldsmobile as white in color. I asked him (because of the Bowers testimony) if there was any blue on the car and he could not recall one way or the other.

My apologies to the readers here if this seems to be an investigation in process, rather than a finished report. I am planning how it may be possible to either tie this car into the assassination, or alternatively, to rule it out. All comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

jdg

JWK - so you are implying that Joel Gruhn's account is to be taken with a healthy grain of salt? I used the VIN to get the info - what came back was what was posted. I think instead we should take a hard look at Martin and his associates / relatives etc. That will give us a good idea as to whether or not Bowers saw the '59 in question. As advertised, there appears to be a connection between Martin and Grinnell. Gruhn has already indicated that the Martin in question was known for his anti-Kennedy rhetoric. The whole payphone arrangement, and shipping of the car from Dallas clinches it for me.

- lee

Lee - Don't take it personally. I tend to play the devil's advocate sometimes, so that is why I question everything , no matter what side of the picket fence it falls on. It's all in the name of bulletproof (excuse the expression) evidence for our side. If I don't question it, someone else will.

The car you are describing, and the connections made, is great research, and I am in no way trying to diminish it. I'm just making sure that we aren't "evidence leaping" by saying that the '59 Olds wagon Bowers saw MUST be the one you ran the VIN on because of the small number of '59 Olds wagons made. The number you quote was only for Super 88 wagons, and didn't include Dynamic 88 models, which was the Super 88's less expensive (and nearly identical) brother, and, I believe, sold in greater numbers, and should be included in the total number of '59 Olds wagons made that year. It may increase the odds that it's the same wagon that Bowers saw.

There's also the question of whether there are easier ways to get rid of a car than to take the time, expense and exposure of a paper trail involved in shipping it off to another state to be used as a family car for several more years. Any group capable of shooting the president would probably have access to a car shredder at a local junkyard, wouldn't they?

I have some feelers out in the Olds community now, and I'll try to come up with a total number, and final assembley point, soon.

JWK

UPDATE: I just heard back and have some numbers.

1959 Super 88 Fiesta production was 7,015.

1959 Dynamic 88 Fiesta production was 11,298.

There were no 98 Fiestas.

Total of 18,313 full-sized Olds wagons for 1959.

Thank you for your research on the Olds - amazing what is possible to learn, especially at this late date!

Re: "evidence leaping"... My statement was "It may be the same vehicle as that testified to by Lee Bowers, Jr., however until there is a bit more known about this automobile, it’s owners and its circumstances I prefer not to make that conclusion."

I have presented only what was known personally to me, or what was said to me by my father. All we know is that there was A 1959 station wagon, Oldsmobile S88 shipped suspiciously from Dallas, AND NOT that THE Lee Bower's Olds was shipped. I hope my intention is clear - to uncover more information on this car and owner so as to determine IF it is more or less probable that this report correlates with Bower's. Yes, anything more should be taken with well-salted skepticism.

In my opinion, new and corroborating formation might come from a number of sources:

1. Who was the historical Stewart R. Martin of Oak Cliff, and what can we learn about his views, associations, political affiliations if any, military service record etc. For example, does he show up on any lists of White Citizens Council, Minutemen, John Birch Society member, Anti-Castro or other right wing groups? Are there news articles that reference him? Arrest or court records and the like? Can his relationship to Ray Lipski be verified by any means?

2. What is known about Budget Auto, and it's owners(s) politically or otherwise.

3. Is there any way of tracing ownership back before Budget Auto?

4. is there any way to go from the VIN to the paint color of this car? How many white or white/blue two toned cars were produced? I will go over the tape I have as I believe Karl made a comment as to the car color.

-------------

"Any group capable of shooting the president would probably have access to a car shredder at a local junkyard, wouldn't they?”

In the same way, i.e. avoiding "evidence leaping" I must ask what the evidence is that the apparent conspiracy was organized as a functional group, with probable access to a car shredder at a junkyard.

Is it not also possible that a conspiracy could be comprised of independent and difficult to organize characters, operating with compartmentalized understandings of what was happening, who encouraged and used local resources and people, who themselves were often only marginally in control?

/jdg

Joel, do you know whether your fathers business had dealings/connections with Nassaus Window Furnishings or with Fabricland?

Sorry to say neither name is familiar.

/jdg

Hello Joel!

Welcome to the Forum. Can you upload photos? If not, feel free to shoot them to me as attachments and I will load them for you.

lforman23@comcast.net

BTW - once I find where I put them, I can scan and load the result of the search of the VIN through the Historical Society. We also have a Forum member on board who may be able to confirm Martin's Dallas address. As per my post on the subject - very likely that the car was junked at Carmichaels - that would have been closest to Mound. Carmichaels was razed last year. It's also possible that there may be a photo of Martin someplace.

Was your Father part of ALSOS? Would you happen to know the actual name of the project that he was engaged in while stationed in Munich? Did he take Ray in as a favor to someone do you know?

-lee

Thank you Lee...

I would be gratefull for any further information you have, to be shared with other forum members, including especially any information on, or photo of. Martin.

I cannot rule out Charmichaels as being the final resting place for the Olds... It was large and convienient, however Karl was explicit that the junkyard was WEST of Mound, and Charmichaels is a few miles east. He also spoke of wanting to go "out there" and look for the car. In that area, out is west and in is east.

I have never heard of Alsos or any other project name. Karl spoke of being driven around Munich, and finding officers at home, who were scared of reprisal or trial, and so were happy to cooperate. I do not believe his WWII service is relevent to the car and Martin however. Interesting it may be, personally I see it as a bit of a diversion.

I am not aware of any particular reason he used Ray, outside of the context of their working relationship.

jdg