David Von Pein

Oh, really? Maybe you need to take another look then. Just keep staring at this Z-Film clip and then try to tell me that these two men aren't reacting at the exact same moment in time.... http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html The two CTer-invented vanishing ones that I talked about in my last post.

Ray, In nearly every post-assassination interview he ever gave, Governor Connally said he was in the process of turning back to his left after turning to his right when he felt the bullet hit him. He was, however, still in a "turned to the right" posture when he was hit. Well, Ray, via the autopsy photos, we know where the TWO bullet holes are located in the upper back and throat of President Kennedy. And we know that no bullets were found in JFK's whole body. TWO bullet holes. But NO bullets. And minimal damage in JFK's neck and back. Plus a bullet hole in the UPPER BACK of Governor Connally. Plus the simultaneous reactions of both victims visible in the Zapruder Film. Don't those facts suggest something pretty obvious? They sure do to me. Plus, I'd like to know how the members of "The Bullet Had No Choice But To Hit JFK's Spine And/Or Vertebra" club can explain to me how THEY can reconcile a rifle bullet entering the bullet hole shown in the autopsy picture below and yet somehow not have that bullet hit the vertebra that those CTers insist was in the direct flight path of the bullet? Seems to me the CTers who belong to that club should be asking themselves how the bullet missed the vertebrae, and not just asking LNers. For how could (or why would) any bullet stop all of its forward motion after penetrating JFK's back just an inch or two? And then those same conspiracy theorists can explain how (and why) a SECOND such missile managed to do the exact same thing on the other side of the President's body --- with the throat bullet also missing the spine and/or vertebrae and also only going into Kennedy's body a very short distance. The SBT bullet is far less "magical" than those two crazy miracle missiles that the conspiracists have invented.

No, Ray, the diagram Dr. Wecht utilized at the 1986 mock trial isn't even close to being accurate (the bullet angle, I mean). I discussed that skewed diagram with someone else in 2009. Excerpts below..... ------------ JOE ELLIOTT SAID: David -- Superb collection of videos. I was most curious about: "On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald". Very interesting. .... I am disappointed that Bugliosi did not point out that the Anti SBT diagram that Dr. Wecht was using was totally off. .... Wecht's diagram is even more inaccurate than the Costner diagram in the movie JFK. .... I wonder why there was no challenge? .... Questions for David: Have you ever discussed this issue with Bugliosi? Do you know why Bugliosi did not challenge the accuracy of that diagram? DAVID VON PEIN SAID: I've wondered that same thing myself, Joe. No, I've never discussed that particular issue with Vince Bugliosi (or through his secretary, Rosemary Newton, which is the only way I've ever "contacted" Vince). But a possible (partial) reason for why Vince didn't challenge Wecht's skewed diagram [shown below] is because Wecht told the jury at the 1986 TV docu-trial that he was of the opinion (via his own personal "analysis") that at least one of the bullets that struck JFK from behind had originated from the WEST end of the Texas School Book Depository and from the second floor, instead of from Oswald's sixth-floor window on the east end of the TSBD building. Dr. Wecht's make-believe west-end gunman is the thing that enables Wecht to pretend that the bullet that went through President Kennedy was able to miss Governor Connally completely. And Cyril's "second floor" theory also enables the good doctor to pretend that the bullet was able to somehow miss the entire limousine after exiting JFK's throat as well (via the not-as-steep angle for the bullet that is provided by Wecht's make-believe "second floor" TSBD assassin). But there's one part of Wecht's diagram that Bugliosi should have strongly objected to and should have verbally ripped to shreds....and that's the positioning of John Connally within that diagram. Wecht does have Connally correctly sitting inboard of President Kennedy (which is unusual for a diagram/chart/sketch that's being propped up by a conspiracist), but that diagram doesn't show Governor Connally turned in his jump seat at all, which is definitely inaccurate and misleading, and is something that Bugliosi should have mentioned at the top of his lungs at the '86 TV trial. But he didn't (AFAIK). Prosecutor Bugliosi should have probably produced a sketch of his own when cross-examining Dr. Wecht -- such as an accurate sketch like this one here (which appears in the photo section of Bugliosi's 2007 JFK book): Another thing that Bugliosi should have nailed Wecht for at the '86 trial is when Wecht said that JFK's head was "driven backward and to the left with substantial force at the moment of impact with the head wound", which is a statement that everyone knows is 100% false. Kennedy's head isn't "driven backward and to the left" at the precise "moment of impact" at Z313 -- JFK's head, instead, moves FORWARD at the precise "moment of impact" between Zapruder Film frames 312 and 313 [as seen in the clip below]. That very important point regarding JFK's initial forward head movement was established by Mr. Bugliosi earlier in the trial (during the testimony of Cecil Kirk), but when Dr. Wecht wanted to leave the incorrect impression in the minds of the jurors that Kennedy's head moved to the rear at the critical "moment of impact", Vince should have thrown the truth of the matter back into Cyril's face during VB's cross-examination of Wecht. David Von Pein April 26, 2009 More: jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-503.html

It might not be in any of the doctors' testimony, but information about an examination of the lungs is in the autopsy report itself (on page 542 of the Warren Report). There is also the following Warren Commission testimony provided by Dr. Humes [at 2 H 363] (emphasis is my own).... "In attempting to relate findings within the President's body to this wound which we had observed low in his neck, we then opened his chest cavity, and we very carefully examined the lining of his chest cavity and both of his lungs. We found that there was, in fact, no defect in the pleural lining of the President's chest. It was completely intact." -- Dr. James J. Humes Plus, Mr. Knight, if you're suggesting that the bullet that entered JFK's upper back did not exit his body and, instead, ranged downward into his chest and lodged there --- then that must surely mean you think another bullet entered Kennedy's throat and did the same thing that the back wound bullet did --- it stopped dead in its tracks and then disappeared (despite the nearly complete lack of injury inside JFK's body that would indicate that ANY bullet, much less TWO of them, could have just stopped its forward movement through the President's body on its own). Do you really believe TWO bullets behaved in this strange "Stopped Dead In Their Tracks" manner on 11/22/63? And then BOTH bullets vanished without a trace? Is that a reasonable conclusion to reach? When we get right down to fundamental basics and common sense, isn't the best solution to this bullet "mystery"--by far--the conclusion reached by the autopsy doctors and by the Warren Commission and by the HSCA --- i.e., one bullet entered JFK's upper back and exited his throat?

Well, David, don't you think the conclusions reached by a forensic panel assigned to evaluate the JFK medical evidence should carry at least a TAD bit of weight? Or should we just toss aside and deem invalid all of the work and the evaluation of the autopsy photos and X-rays that was done by the nine members of the HSCA's FPP? ..... Excerpts from Dr. Michael Baden's HSCA testimony.... Dr. BADEN - The autopsy report concludes that there was a gunshot perforation of entrance in the right upper back and that the exit wound was in the front of the neck. Mr. KLEIN - Doctor, on the basis of the foregoing evidence, photos and X-rays taken at the autopsy, the examination of the President's clothing, the reports of radiologists, interviews of the surgeons who attended the President at Parkland Hospital, and the autopsy report, did the panel unanimously conclude that a bullet entered the upper right back of the President and exited from the front of his neck? Dr. BADEN - Every member of the panel so concluded. [...] Dr. BADEN - ...Part of the single bullet concept incorporates all the consistencies; all the evidence is certainly consistent with a single bullet, but this conclusion becomes more persuasive because of absence of any reasonable alternative of any scientific merit apart from specuation. It is possible, it is within the realm of possibility to me but very unlikely, that a second bullet could have done damage lined up just as the first bullet. There is no evidence for it, and we are persuaded beyond a reasonable medical certainty against this speculation. [...] Mr. KLEIN - Doctor, you have also testified that the panel unanimously concluded that a bullet entered the President's upper right back and exited from the front of his neck. Did the panel reach a conclusion as to whether the same bullet which entered the President's upper right back could have then exited from the front of his neck and struck Governor Connally and caused the wounds that he received? Dr. BADEN - Yes; the panel concluded, based on the enlarged nature of the entrance perforation in the Governor's back, that the bullet was wobbling when it struck him and had to have struck something before striking the Governor; that this entrance perforation of the Governor's back could have resulted from a missile that had come through the neck of the President on the basis of the autopsy findings alone; that in taking other evidence into consideration, such as the position of the President and the position of the Governor in the car, the findings are entirely consistent with a single bullet exiting the front of the President's neck and re-entering in the back of the Governor. [...] Dr. BADEN - The X-rays show, first, that there is no missile present in the body [of President Kennedy] at the time the X-rays were taken. This X-ray, No. 9, was taken before the autopsy, this one, No. 8, during the autopsy. Further, there is evidence of injury to the right of the neck with air and gas shadows, in the right side of the neck and an irregularity of one of the spines, a portion of one spine of the President; that is, the first thoracic vertebra which is also apparent on the blow-up and which the panel, and in consultation with the radiology experts, concluded represents a fracture-type injury to that vertebra. Mr. KLEIN - Are those X-rays consistent with the bullet having passed through the President's body? Dr. BADEN - Yes, sir. They are consistent with the bullet passing through and no longer being present.

Mark, I was a "lone assassin" believer long before Vincent Bugliosi's JFK book was published in 2007, as this 2003 Internet forum post (and many other pre-2007 posts like it) vividly proves. And via that provable chronology of my "Lone Assassin" beliefs, it means the following foolish comment can be placed into the "Mark Knight Doesn't Know What The Hell He's Talking About" file cabinet.... “ "Vince said it, I believe it." That's called faith, not proof. ” -- M. Knight; 8/15/15

No, Mark, but Steven Gaal sure has done so in this thread. And you, Mark, told Steven to "continue to engage him [DVP] in this fashion. He'll continue to ridicule your posts without doing any independent investigation". That's where I got Horne/Lifton. Apparently Steven Gaal considers those two fantasy promoters to be really good (unbiased?) sources (especially Horne). BTW, Mark, do you think you know more than the 9 forensic pathologists who studied the JFK case for the HSCA? Those nine doctors (all of them without exception) concluded that a bullet definitely DID pass through the upper body of John F. Kennedy. Were all nine of those physicians (in addition to Humes, Boswell, and Finck, who all concluded the same thing) complete boobs? Were they all totally unfamiliar with the structure and the anatomy of the human body? And, therefore, do you think that each of those 12 doctors, counting the autopsists, could represent the "he" in the following sentence you wrote on August 15th?.... "He would, in my opinion, rather "educate" himself from the works of his heroes than actually explore, via unbiased outside sources, whether the conclusions his heroes propose are actually anatomical[ly] and physiological[ly] possible." -- Mark Knight; 8/15/15 In other words, I guess I'm supposed to swallow the notion that all three of JFK's autopsy doctors plus all NINE members of the HSCA's Forensic Pathology Panel really had no clue at all as to the question of whether a bullet really could have made its way cleanly through the upper back and neck regions of President Kennedy's body on November 22, 1963. Evidently, per Mark Knight, all twelve of those guys were just winging it (or they were all just flat-out lying). Thanks, Mark.

You're funny, Mark. You act as if Vince B. never provided a single source for anything he wrote in his 7-pound JFK book. Do you think he just made up stuff out of the clear blue sky, sans any sources or verification whatsoever? And this is a howler.... "...unbiased outside sources..." The above three words are particularly humorous after reading Steven Gaal's posts in this thread in which he quoted Douglas P. Horne at length. Is Doug Horne what you'd consider an "unbiased source", Mark? Or David Lifton? What a laugh.

["Reclaiming History" Quote On:] "The single most important discovery, and one that establishes with absolute and irrefutable certainty that the autopsy photographs have not been altered, is the fact that many of the photographs, when combined in pairs, produce stereoscopic images. .... The only way a forger can successfully alter a detailed stereoscopic image...without detection is to alter both images identically, which is, [photographic expert and HSCA panel member Frank] Scott said, "essentially impossible." .... The entire photographic panel of the HSCA concluded that "the autopsy photographs and X-rays were taken of President Kennedy at the time of his autopsy and that they had not been altered in any manner." This fact alone demolishes the conspiracy theorists' allegations that photographic fakery was used to conceal the plot to kill the president. It also destroys another prime conspiracy belief--that the eyewitness descriptions of the president's wounds that were offered by the Parkland Hospital doctors (and later by some eyewitnesses to the autopsy) are proof that the autopsy photographs had been altered. Obviously, if the autopsy photographs are genuine and unaltered (which all the experts agree), then eyewitness descriptions of the president's wounds that contradict those photographs are not proof of alteration, as some critics claim, but nothing more than examples of understandable, mistaken recollections, or if not that, then deliberate and outright falsehoods." -- Vince Bugliosi; Pages 223-224 of "Reclaiming History" Endnotes

Looks like Steven Gaal has fallen for just about every nonsensical JFK conspiracy theory that has ever been created since '63. Do you have any limits as far as unsupportable conspiracy theories are concerned, Steven? Or is it pretty much an Anything Goes mindset with you? And do you also think "Prayer Man" is Lee Oswald?

Re: Doug Horne's fantasies...... -------------------------- ON DECEMBER 19, 2009, IN THIS AMAZON.COM POST, DOUGLAS P. HORNE SAID: >>> "Mr. Von Pein, Dr. Humes performed the post-mortem surgery on JFK's head wounds before the autopsy." <<< DAVID VON PEIN, IN THIS 12/19/09 AMAZON.COM POST, REPLIED: The above single sentence penned by Douglas P. Horne should be enough of a reason all by itself, with nothing more added, for all sensible and reasonable people to disregard Mr. Horne's theories as pure hogwash and nonsense (not to mention impossible). DOUG HORNE SAID: >>> "Mr. Von Pein, this is in response to your claim that there is nothing wrong with the autopsy x-rays and photos. Many autopsy photos, and two skull x-rays, are missing." <<< DVP SAID: Yes, there are indeed apparently some autopsy photos "missing". But I will once again have to agree with the man who wrote the best book ever written on the JFK assassination, Vincent Bugliosi, when he said this in "Reclaiming History": "For years conspiracy theorists have charged that the "missing" autopsy photographs are, in their minds, one more indication of a conspiracy in the assassination. .... But...with literally hundreds of people from various official investigative agencies...examining and working with the photos throughout the years, I not only don't find it suspicious, I find it completely predictable that one or more photographs ended up missing, misplaced, or expropriated by people through whose hands they passed." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 275 of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F. Kennedy" (Endnotes on CD-ROM) DOUG HORNE SAID: >>> "Dr. David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D., in 9 visits to the [National] Archives (most of them during the 1990s), has conclusively proven that the three surviving skull x-rays in the National Archives are altered copy films, not original x-rays. The science he used was optical densitometry, a technique not employed by the HSCA's "experts" because they didn't think outside the box." <<< DVP SAID: And yet at the end of this day (like all other days since the HSCA final report was published in early 1979), we're still left with the conclusions of the TWENTY or so experts who were a part of the HSCA's Photographic Panel, with those conclusions being: "The evidence indicates that the autopsy photographs and X-rays were taken of President Kennedy at the time of his autopsy and that they had not been altered in any manner." -- 7 HSCA 41 DOUG HORNE SAID: >>> "Quoting old findings which did not employ optical densitometry as an analytical technique does NOT discredit his [Dr. Mantik's] work, it is simply an intellectually dishonest way of attempting to ignore it." <<< DVP SAID: I'm certainly not alone in my disagreements with Dr. Mantik. Many other people also strongly disagree with Dr. Mantik's conclusions regarding the photographs and X-rays, and also disagree with his notion that some conspirator(s) had a desire to "plant" a "6.5- millimeter object" onto one of JFK's X-rays after the autopsy, which is a notion that defies logic from all sensible points-of-view (mainly because it was so utterly UNNECESSARY AND SUPERFLUOUS). But Dr. David Mantik doesn't care about Occam and his handy (and usually accurate) razor. Instead of applying some measure of logic and common sense (and Occam) to the controversial matters surrounding JFK's murder, Dr. Mantik (and you) would rather peddle impossible-to- prove theories for years on end. And, of course, there will always be somebody out there in fantasy- land who will be ready to listen to the impossible-to-prove theories of conspiracy theorists like Doug Horne and David Mantik. Such is the way with the world. DOUG HORNE SAID: >>> "Hopefully, your attempts to dissuade people from reading my book will backfire, and badly. All of your concerns are addressed and countered, more than adequately, in my book, for those who are curious and have an open mind." <<< DVP SAID: I'm not attempting to "dissuade" anyone from reading your 5 volumes of nonsense, Doug. Not at all. Hopefully many people will buy your books. And among those people who buy them there will certainly be a decent- sized percentage of logical and reasonable folks (like me) who know beyond any and all doubt that none of the over-the-top theories that you purport as being true and valid in your book series entitled "Inside The Assassination Records Review Board" can possibly be accurate...because the stuff you think happened in November 1963 is just (to put it bluntly) too ridiculous to consider believing for more than three seconds. DOUG HORNE SAID: >>> "Have a nice day. And thank you for attracting more attention to my book. Surely, anyone reading this debate in the [Amazon.com] comments section will now want to buy it, to see what this is all about---so they can make their own assessments." <<< DVP SAID: Yeah, if only for the many belly-laughs that your impossible-to-prove conspiracy theories will undoubtedly elicit from the people reading your books. But good luck selling them anyway. Have a nice day. ADDENDUM: Let's just take a quick (but by no means comprehensive) inventory of a few of the insane and crazy things that Mr. Douglas P. Horne believes happened with respect to the death of the 35th U.S. Chief Executive. [And most of Horne's irrational beliefs are laid out via his many ARRB memos, located HERE.] And keep in mind that Mr. Horne thinks that ALL of these things definitely occurred in connection with JFK's assassination, and this short list is probably only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the crazy conspiracy-oriented things that Mr. Horne puts his faith in. Back in the world of sanity and REALITY, however, in order to believe that even ONE of the following things is actually true, a person has no choice but to place his faith in something that is really, really silly: 1.) Doug Horne believes that President Kennedy's bullet wounds were "altered" by Dr. James Joseph Humes at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the night of November 22, 1963, with the President's wounds being altered by Humes before the start of the official autopsy on JFK's body. 2.) Doug Horne believes that there were TWO separate brain examinations performed by the autopsists in late November 1963, with one of these supplementary brain exams being performed on a brain that was NOT John F. Kennedy's brain. And the second brain exam was apparently done on a brain that was WAY TOO BIG to even be JFK's own brain. (The plotters/cover-up agents involved in this silliness evidently had no brains at all in any of their own heads, because this craziness is BEYOND silly and stupid. It's utterly insane, as is #1 above, of course.) 3.) Doug Horne believes that the Zapruder Film has been altered. And Horne believes the film was faked/altered/manipulated despite the fact that we know that the original film, both BEFORE and immediately AFTER it was developed and copied in Dallas on 11/22/63, was never out of the sight of Abraham Zapruder and/or Zapruder's business partner, Erwin Schwartz. But maybe Mr. Horne would like to pretend that ordinary Dallas citizens like Zapruder and Schwartz were also part of the plot to conceal all of the best evidence from the eyes of the American public immediately after JFK was shot. 4.) Doug Horne believes that multiple X-rays of JFK's head have been faked/altered. The above short list, as I mentioned, is probably only a representative sampling of the ridiculous and impossible things that Mr. Horne believes regarding the John F. Kennedy murder case, with the above four items being things that I jotted down after listening to Horne's appearance on "Black Op Radio" on December 10, 2009. David Von Pein December 2009 LINK TO ORIGINAL POST (DECEMBER 20, 2009) =============================== PART 2 PART 3 PART 4

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/doug-horne's-silliness-part-1.html jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/07/david-von-pein-vs-david-lifton.html

The original plan was, indeed, to transport JFK's casket to Bethesda via helicopter, as we can hear on the Air Force One tapes (below). But the plan was changed prior to AF1 landing at Andrews, due (no doubt) to the fact that somebody realized the difficulty there would be if they tried to jam JFK's very heavy and cumbersome casket onto a helicopter. So an ambulance/hearse was used instead. There's certainly nothing conspiratorial or sinister about that change in plans whatsoever. In fact, it was a very sensible and prudent change that almost certainly had to be made. And the answer to the #2 question above is quite simple --- President Kennedy's body got to Bethesda by way of the gray Navy ambulance. Millions of people watching television saw the casket being placed into that ambulance. (Why was that second question even asked?) ~shrug~ Below are excerpts from the AF1 radio transmissions concerning the "chopper" and the later realization by members of the Kennedy party aboard Air Force One that ground transportation would be needed to replace the chopper: Air Force One Radio Excerpts (November 22, 1963) More.... jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/aircraft-radio-transmissions-11-22-63.html

But the thing is, Ron -- the shots were not that "difficult". This four-hour program would tend to refute your statement (at least to some extent).... jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/05/cbs-news-inquiry-the-warren-report-(1967).html BTW, I liked Walter Cronkite (and his reporting) a great deal. And when he died in 2009, some of the more despicable CTers came out of the woodwork to piss on his grave. So I had to add my 2 cents.... jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/walter-cronkite.html

Absolute nonsense. I've never once said anything of the kind, and Drew knows it.

It's funny, isn't it Brian, that two people can look at the exact same facts and the exact same circumstances and yet come to totally opposite conclusions? The nature of "human" life, I suppose. But it is my firm belief that Jack Ruby's known actions and movements from November 22 to November 24 practically eliminate the idea that any pre-planned conspiracy (or "rub out") occurred in the basement of Dallas City Hall at 11:21 AM CST on 11/24/63.

And the evidence for that extraordinary assertion is.....?

MARK KNIGHT SAID: Midway. That would likely be the other airport in Chicago. DAVID VON PEIN SAID: Yes. That's a good alternate choice, Mark. But even Midway is a pretty good-sized airport. I'm thinking Ruby might have wanted to use DuPage Airport, which is a general aviation facility located 29 miles west of Chicago. If Jack wanted to keep a very low profile while visiting his sister for the last time before plugging Oswald, I think DuPage might have been his best bet. And on his drive into Chicago, he could (of course) stop by a deli in his old neighborhood where he used to live and pick up some sandwiches to take to Eileen too.

RON ECKER SAID: What about it? Maybe he knew that if he didn't go see his sister that night, he might never see her again, at least not as a free man. That's one possibility. But I know, you don't have to tell me, that's "just plain silly." DAVID VON PEIN SAID: Okaaaaay, Ron. So Ruby is hired to rub out the patsy. And he surely knows that he should probably carry out that "rubbing out" job as soon as he can, so the patsy won't spill any more beans than he already might have spilled to the cops since the plotters (including Ruby) were too stupid to just kill Oswald after he left the Book Depository Building immediately after the assassination. But Ruby decides to waste a bunch of time by phoning his two sisters (Eva and Eileen) on the afternoon and evening of November 22nd (and he wasted more time on the phone talking to several other people too). And on top of that foot-dragging that he did on the telephone that weekend, Ruby decides he just might want to fly out of Dallas and travel hundreds of miles away to Chicago, Illinois, so he can say goodbye for the last time to his sister Eileen. Which means he would have to very quickly hop on another plane at O'Hare International Airport (or whatever low-profile airport Chicago was using to accommodate hit men and other assorted criminals so they could slip in and out of town without attracting any undue attention) and fly almost immediately back to Dallas in order to complete his important assignment of murdering the patsy named Oswald. Good theory, Ron. Nothing wrong with that logic at all. (But at least I didn't use that "S" word you hate so much.) :-)

Jack Ruby liked to go where the action was happening. (I thought that fact was common knowledge by now amongst people interested in the JFK assassination.) So it doesn't surprise me in the least that he showed up numerous times at Dallas City Hall after Oswald was arrested. It's what I would EXPECT Jack Ruby to do. Plus, he knew a lot of cops. This made his presence in the police station more of a normal occurrence than anything out of the ordinary as far as many of the police officers stationed there were concerned. As far as Ruby's knowledge of the "Fair Play For Cuba Committee" during Henry Wade's late-night news conference, there is a very logical explanation for that --- right here. Also see the chapter called "Ruby And The Mob" on pages 1071—1144 of Vincent Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History". That chapter contains an excellent biography of Jack Ruby.