Guest Stephen Turner Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 [Ok. So you want to debunk the reports by people in the UK of being denied treatments by the NHS and debunk that the Liverpool care pathway exists? The Liverpool care pathway is a palliative care programme for TERMINALLY ill patients, But I doubt that will make much difference, as you have been told this on several occasions already. The aim is to improve care of THE DYING, in the LAST HOURS/ DAYS OF LIFE. The LCP provides GUIDANCE on key aspects of hospice care, including. * Symptom control. * Comfort measures. * Anticipatory prescribing of medicine. * And, the one that I suspect all this nonsence is based around, DISCONTINUATION OF INAPPROPRIATE INTERVENTIONS. And who decides which interventions are inappropriate? The primary care team, with input from Relatives and friends. My God, thats some conspiracy. You may have problems with the tick box diagnostic nature of this care plan, And professionally I share some of them. But, to claim that this is some form of eugenics is patent rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 And I'll take FREEDOM any day. What FREEDOM do the 50,000+ US citizens unable to afford health care insurance have? Its not so much a euthanasia programme you have going on over there than a socially selective cull. If you want to learn about the real "death panels" read this; http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insura...n-US-adults.pdf Stephen's point about palliative care in the UK in his last post is also well made. Hospice and palliative care exists in the US too - the main difference is you only get it if you pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) And I'll take FREEDOM any day. What FREEDOM do the 50,000+ US citizens unable to afford health care insurance have? Its not so much a euthanasia programme you have going on over there than a socially selective cull. If you want to learn about the real "death panels" read this; http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insura...n-US-adults.pdf Stephen's point about palliative care in the UK in his last post is also well made. Hospice and palliative care exists in the US too - the main difference is you only get it if you pay. What freedom do they have? All the freedom they want and choose to work for of course. Those too ill, children of poor and middle class, unable to work or destitute are covered at no cost. Some of course still have the freedom move their lives forward. Others have the FREEDOM to decide to remain wards of the state. Even if some might fail to join the governmental programs they still have the freedom to seek care at free private clinics or as a last resort (or a first resort for many) seek care at emergency rooms. No one can be denied care in the US. Clearly our program can use work, no one has denied that. What most of us resist is total governmental control. If you are happy with your government telling you when you can live or die, that you most pay for a program even if you don't want to be part of it, what meds and what treatments you can receive and other wise reduce your life to a dollars and cents decision so be it. Not me. Yes, Stephen pimped the governmental line about the Liverpool Pathway. But let’s get real. The MAIN goal is to REDUCE MEDICAL COSTS to the NHS. You can wrap it all up in flowery prose but when you cut to the chase it’s the GOVERNMENT deciding when someone dies...to save a buck. Of course you have no choice. Your population is aging fast and soon the old and sick will be eating up the budget of the NHS. They will be coming for you someday Andy. And you won't have the FREEDOM to stop them. Clearly this too is the goal of the US government...total control of the US healthcare industry...and the ability to decide who gets what and who dies when. And of course that’s why there is a huge uprising here now. People will not give up their FREEDOM. I know that’s a crazy concept for most of the people in the world who have ceded control of their lives to their government mostly for "free" healthcare among other things. But FREEDOM still has value here, at least for the thinking Americans. BTW, Hospice and Palliative care is available to those on governmental programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and Schips. Edited September 22, 2009 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) [Ok. So you want to debunk the reports by people in the UK of being denied treatments by the NHS and debunk that the Liverpool care pathway exists? The Liverpool care pathway is a palliative care programme for TERMINALLY ill patients, But I doubt that will make much difference, as you have been told this on several occasions already. The aim is to improve care of THE DYING, in the LAST HOURS/ DAYS OF LIFE. The LCP provides GUIDANCE on key aspects of hospice care, including. * Symptom control. * Comfort measures. * Anticipatory prescribing of medicine. * And, the one that I suspect all this nonsence is based around, DISCONTINUATION OF INAPPROPRIATE INTERVENTIONS. And who decides which interventions are inappropriate? The primary care team, with input from Relatives and friends. My God, thats some conspiracy. You may have problems with the tick box diagnostic nature of this care plan, And professionally I share some of them. But, to claim that this is some form of eugenics is patent rubbish. Slippery slope Stephen. Your population is aging fast (as is ours). Gonna have to control those sky high medical costs for the aging somehow. What better way than to just be rid of them as soon as possible eh? Imagine how much money the NHS can save if it just ends a life a fews day early, or a few weeks, or a few months, or a few years? We are talking very big bucks. BTW, how many have you already killed via deep sedation that need not have died? If you really want to know the answer is upthread. You down with that? They have that planned here too, if we are stupid enough to cede them them the control. Edited September 22, 2009 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 They have that planned here too, if we are stupid enough to cede them them the control. That's one wild conspiracy you are suggesting there Craig - are you sure you wouldn't be more comfortable on the DPF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 They have that planned here too, if we are stupid enough to cede them them the control. That's one wild conspiracy you are suggesting there Craig - are you sure you wouldn't be more comfortable on the DPF? What other choice do they have? What other choice does NHS have? Both are cash poor and age challanged, even more so in the future....gotta get granny gone as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Yes, Stephen pimped the governmental line about the Liverpool Pathway. . Gosh, isn't that what Jack accuses you of doing, you're hunkering down with some pretty strange bedfellows here Craig, hope the irony isn't lost on you. Your problem is that you have zero understanding of the clinical processes involved here, and so you are reduced to waiving your hands and shouting, " Obama wants to kill my Granny" The Psych unit I work in is just part of a large teaching Hospital here in Cambridge, Addenbrookes, the medical research labs are World famous, its where Crick and Watson first proposed the double helix theory. Yesterday evening I invited some of my colleagues to come to my office and read this thread, a consultant surgeon, several Doctors, and clinical specialist Nurses took me up on the offer, and you and Terry were the subject of much mirth, the General consensis was that you are a member of the tin foil hat brigade, when I informed that usually you are anti conspiracy, prefering cock-up or coincidence, one of the Doctors said "Then its ideologically driven" And that pretty much sums it up doesn't it? As far as most Consevatives are conserned Obama now has three strikes against him, One, he's not a Republican, Two, He's not really American ( I'll leave Jimmy Carter to call racism on it) and three, he wants to reform the sacred cow of health provision, leaving insurers, drug manufacturers and senior medical staff to tell the lobbyists to let loose the dogs on him. Right wingers have hated the NHS since its inception in 1948, constantly warning that it would fail, be financially ruinous, lead to a medical brain-drain, but guess what, all of these foaming Nostradami have been proven incorrect, their real worry wasn't that it would fail, quite the oposite, but that it would be a success, because what does that say about how we organise Society, and share precious resources. Every Consevative administration since(and this present "Labour" one) have done their best to portray the NHS in a bad light, underfunding, PFI, poor pay for Junior grades, the shutting of local Hospitals, allowing Consultants to keep private patients, and work those lists whilst being payed from the public purse, the list goes on and on, but despite their best efforts the NHS continues to be the most popular institution this Country has ever known, and a full frontal attack upon it would probably lead to insurecton. So you see, we are quite used to this nonsence being leveled at the Health service, its just that it normally comes from Domestic self interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Yes, Stephen pimped the governmental line about the Liverpool Pathway. . Gosh, isn't that what Jack accuses you of doing, you're hunkering down with some pretty strange bedfellows here Craig, hope the irony isn't lost on you. Your problem is that you have zero understanding of the clinical processes involved here, and so you are reduced to waiving your hands and shouting, " Obama wants to kill my Granny" The Psych unit I work in is just part of a large teaching Hospital here in Cambridge, Addenbrookes, the medical research labs are World famous, its where Crick and Watson first proposed the double helix theory. Yesterday evening I invited some of my colleagues to come to my office and read this thread, a consultant surgeon, several Doctors, and clinical specialist Nurses took me up on the offer, and you and Terry were the subject of much mirth, the General consensis was that you are a member of the tin foil hat brigade, when I informed that usually you are anti conspiracy, prefering cock-up or coincidence, one of the Doctors said "Then its ideologically driven" And that pretty much sums it up doesn't it? As far as most Consevatives are conserned Obama now has three strikes against him, One, he's not a Republican, Two, He's not really American ( I'll leave Jimmy Carter to call racism on it) and three, he wants to reform the sacred cow of health provision, leaving insurers, drug manufacturers and senior medical staff to tell the lobbyists to let loose the dogs on him. Right wingers have hated the NHS since its inception in 1948, constantly warning that it would fail, be financially ruinous, lead to a medical brain-drain, but guess what, all of these foaming Nostradami have been proven incorrect, their real worry wasn't that it would fail, quite the oposite, but that it would be a success, because what does that say about how we organise Society, and share precious resources. Every Consevative administration since(and this present "Labour" one) have done their best to portray the NHS in a bad light, underfunding, PFI, poor pay for Junior grades, the shutting of local Hospitals, allowing Consultants to keep private patients, and work those lists whilst being payed from the public purse, the list goes on and on, but despite their best efforts the NHS continues to be the most popular institution this Country has ever known, and a full frontal attack upon it would probably lead to insurecton. So you see, we are quite used to this nonsence being leveled at the Health service, its just that it normally comes from Domestic self interest. Wow, will I make the cocktail circuit next? You have your own doctors questioning your euthanasia program and the outcomes and you and your buds call it tinfoil or ideologically driven? It’s not a theory Stephen, in your case it’s NEWS. If the parsing of the definitions of euthanasia lets your doctor buddies and you sleep better at night, I can understand that. If you can't be comfortable with an uncomfortable truth, I can understand that as well. None of that changes the truth however. Governments everywhere work via incrementalism. The creep if you will. They just can't go all out from the get go, simply because it is just too radical. Let’s take the Liverpool pathway. You make it sound like nothing but compassion, and there for sure that component. Quality end of life care. A noble cause. Then the creep starts, in fact it already has if this is correct: He said that he had personally taken patients off the pathway who went on to live for “significant” amounts of time and warned that many doctors were not checking the progress of patients enough to notice improvement in their condition. "Dr Hargreaves said that this depended, however, on constant assessment of a patient’s condition. He added that some patients were being “wrongly” put on the pathway, which created a “self-fulfilling prophecy” that they would die. He said: “I have been practising palliative medicine for more than 20 years and I am getting more concerned about this “death pathway” that is coming in. “It is supposed to let people die with dignity but it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. “Patients who are allowed to become dehydrated and then become confused can be wrongly put on this pathway.” He added: “What they are trying to do is stop people being overtreated as they are dying. “It is a very laudable idea. But the concern is that it is tick box medicine that stops people thinking.” He said that he had personally taken patients off the pathway who went on to live for “significant” amounts of time and warned that many doctors were not checking the progress of patients enough to notice improvement in their condition. Prof Millard said that it was “worrying” that patients were being “terminally” sedated, using syringe drivers, which continually empty their contents into a patient over the course of 24 hours. In 2007-08 16.5 per cent of deaths in Britain came about after continuous deep sedation, according to researchers at the Barts and the London School of Medicine and Dentistry, twice as many as in Belgium and the Netherlands. " “If they are sedated it is much harder to see that a patient is getting better,” Prof Millard said." So Stephen is it correct or not? What the big deal right? Sure granny is dying. What the problem with it being a few days or a few weeks early. She was still going to die...right? And just think of the money it saves the cash strapped NHS! Can't deny that it saves them money can you? Massive amounts of money when taken as a whole. Ok, that’s not theory Stephen, its NEWS. The question becomes, for you first, where does it go? Willits stay at a few days or a week early? Will it become a year or two, when coupled with denial of treatments and services deemed too expensive by NICE? If so can you still justify it as "compassion" or will it in fact be nothing more than economics cloaked in the parsing of the word compassion? How did you put it.... "but that it would be a success, because what does that say about how we organise Society, and share precious resources." I guess that makes it all ok then...the hell with granny, lets save the cash for someone younger ..... I'm not surprised the people would revolt if NHS was dismantled. It’s popular because people now know nothing else regardless of the systems good or failings. They have forgotten what FREEDOM means. So where does that take us when it comes to the US. Firstly Obama, Strike one is not that he is not a Republican, it’s that he is not a conservative. Conservatives feel the same about Republicans who are not conservatives. There is no doubt Obama is an American citizen. Yes, health care IS sacred. And you would be hard pressed to find a conservative who would not agree that reforms are needed. Heck I'm a perfect example. I'm self employed and have been for years. I must purchase my own health insurance. I don't get to join the massive groups like a major company would when buying insurance for their workers. So I pay more...lots more. And I have to make the hard CHOICES each month to keep paying the bills. I WELCOME some reforms. Just keep the government out of it. They have a lousy track record and a good part of the reason my costs are high, besides people overusing the system are governmental regulations. This brings us back to death panels and creep. Obamacare is screwed because instead of just ramming it through like the stimulus package, it got stalled and people got a chance to read what they wanted to do. They also got to read the words of Obama and his team on their vision of the future. That vision is quite clear and it looks a lot like NICE and the Liverpool pathway. Creep is real, and you can see it everyday in America. They keep trying to pass bills like the soda tax and fat tax. Heck NY state already has the transfat bill. You can see exactly how well creep works by just looking at cigarettes. First it was "let’s just stop smoking on airplanes", then it was restaurants, then bars, then bowling lanes, then all public places, then outdoors in certain cities. Creep , Creep , Creep. That’s how it gets done, just like the frog in a pan of water. Now I can hear you, "but smoking is bad, so this is a good thing". Yes it is bad and a former smoker who quit decades ago I really don't mind the smoke free places. What I mind is the governmental mandate on a LEGAL activity. FREEDOM is being denied, not only to the smokers but to the business owners who don't have a say in how they run their business. That’s how creep works and it will no different in the healthcare arena. So is it a conspiracy theory that euthanasia and death panels like you have in the UK will become part of the US system. I guess so. Only time can answer the question of if it comes to pass. If that makes me a tinfoil hatter instead of a very concerned citizen of the United States of America, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) What I have yet to see on this forum or elsewhere is direct evidence that patients have died due to NHS policy. As direct evidence I mean a) a scientific study or complaints from next of kin that their loved ones died because they were denied care. Instead we’ve seen the opposite; John who is not one to blindly defend the government (quite the opposite in fact) has told us his terminally ill wife was given high quality care for many years. He said this before this debate popped up so there is no grounds to suspect his recollection shifted to conform to his political beliefs, especially since has made his dislike of “New Labour” and Tories (thus every government over the last 30 years) clear. Terry scoffed at “” but it is far from unreasonable, if NICE killed anyone there would be lots of furious children, grandchildren, spouses etc who would be expected to go to the police, file civil suits of at the very least go to the press. There is no shortage of serious newspapers as well as tabloids in the UK many of which are run by Tories. Yet there don’t seem to be any such accusations. A few doctor say this but next of kin it seems. many of the doctors seem to be complaining more about excessive use of pain killers rather than insufficient medical care. It is hardly coincidental that the members insisting the NHS is so bad don’t live in the UK and as far as can be determined from their bios never lived outside the US, let alone in the UK or any other country with a decent public health service, I’m not even sure they’ve ever been outside the US. Nor is it a coincidence they are both (to varying extents) political extremists. As for Craig’s question about the number of foreigners coming to the UK and US for medical treatment it is irrelevant because the question at hand is the quality of treatment for the vast majority of the population not a small extremely wealthy elite. EDIT - "emoticons" disabled Edited September 23, 2009 by Len Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 There are furious relatives, friends, family. You just havent opened and read the links I provided. The Tony Chaitkin interview (posted link) discusses a study done by a Dr. Clive Seal (spelling) that estimates the Liverpool Pathway euthanasia program being responsible for one out of every six deaths in Great Britain. Tony also discussed the altering of death certificates. http://www.larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=11764 http://www.larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=11864 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 What I have yet to see on this forum or elsewhere is direct evidence that patients have died due to NHS policy. As direct evidence I mean a) a scientific study or complaints from next of kin that their loved ones died because they were denied care. Instead we’ve seen the opposite; John who is not one to blindly defend the government (quite the opposite in fact) has told us his terminally ill wife was given high quality care for many years. He said this before this debate popped up so there is no grounds to suspect his recollection shifted to conform to his political beliefs, especially since has made his dislike of “New Labour” and Tories (thus every government over the last 30 years) clear.Terry scoffed at “” but it is far from unreasonable, if NICE killed anyone there would be lots of furious children, grandchildren, spouses etc who would be expected to go to the police, file civil suits of at the very least go to the press. There is no shortage of serious newspapers as well as tabloids in the UK many of which are run by Tories. Yet there don’t seem to be any such accusations. A few doctor say this but next of kin it seems. many of the doctors seem to be complaining more about excessive use of pain killers rather than insufficient medical care. It is hardly coincidental that the members insisting the NHS is so bad don’t live in the UK and as far as can be determined from their bios never lived outside the US, let alone in the UK or any other country with a decent public health service, I’m not even sure they’ve ever been outside the US. Nor is it a coincidence they are both (to varying extents) political extremists. As for Craig’s question about the number of foreigners coming to the UK and US for medical treatment it is irrelevant because the question at hand is the quality of treatment for the vast majority of the population not a small extremely wealthy elite. EDIT - "emoticons" disabled Amazing, suddenly the google button of "mr google" is broken. (heck its often broken even when it works as witnessed recently when he screwd up on the availability of the Obama long form...but I digress...) Here's one for you.... http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...drug/article.do Or this one.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...care-limit.html or this one... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthne...urned-down.html or this one... http://www.responsesource.com/releases/rel...php?relid=37244 or this one... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/h...icle4499847.ece or this one... http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Health/Ki...115072376?f=rss or this one... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/women-de...gs-1241685.html or this one... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/157...-treatment.html and on it goes.... And yes, Im a "political extremist" since I agree with 56% of Americans who also oppose the Obama health care plan...sheesh... http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_con...lth_care_reform Finally 'mr google" says: "As for Craig’s question about the number of foreigners coming to the UK and US for medical treatment it is irrelevant because the question at hand is the quality of treatment for the vast majority of the population not a small extremely wealthy elite." Of course mr google is wrong again. The the subject in question was the overall QUALITY OF CARE. Once again Len shucks and jibes when he can't refute a point. And besides, are thousands of everdy Canaadians who flock to the US for treatemtn the "wealthy elite"? Sheesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Here's another article Budget Chief Contradicts Obama On Medicare Costs http://www.worth-reading.com/read/463/taxe...medicare-costs/ The head of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, Douglas Elmendorf, told senators Tuesday that seniors in Medicare's managed care plans would see reduced benefits under a bill in the Finance Committee. The bill would cut payments to the Medicare Advantage plans by more than $100 billion over 10 years. Obama's health care austerity program comes straight from London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 What freedom do they have? All the freedom they want and choose to work for of course. Those too ill, children of poor and middle class, unable to work or destitute are covered at no cost. Some of course still have the freedom move their lives forward. Others have the FREEDOM to decide to remain wards of the state. Even if some might fail to join the governmental programs they still have the freedom to seek care at free private clinics or as a last resort (or a first resort for many) seek care at emergency rooms. No one can be denied care in the US. Clearly our program can use work, no one has denied that. What most of us resist is total governmental control..... Craig, In civilized ODCs, the bankrupting of the working class as a result of the costs of pursuing treatment for accident and illness does not happen, as, despite your denials, it most certainly happens every day in America. In the rest of the world, right wing efforts to preserve and protect the wealthiest and most powerful are not as dominate, and neither are the views of the right so firmly rooted as they are tioday in the alternate universe you and so many of your fellow American, choose to inhabit. You paint a deceptive picture of life in these United States, and even if you are fortunate enough to be insured, the choice is ceded not to the government or to you, but to you insurer, as far as what is billed to it for your care, vs. what it chooses to pay for. If your insurer decides not to pay, your recourse is the insurance department in your individual state, headed by a former insurance industry executive who will most likely return to a position in that industry, after his public "service". http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-wo...0,2601054.storySecond of three parts Their day in court Hospital debt collection lawsuits can zoom through the courts, pitting experienced law firms against ill-informed defendants By Fred Schulte and James Drew | investigations@baltsun.com December 22, 2008 Every Wednesday at noon, debt collection lawyers take their seats behind a thick wooden table in a downtown Baltimore courtroom for a ritual they call the "rocket docket." It's one way officials at the city District Court try to unclog a backlog of consumer debt lawsuits, including thousands filed by hospitals over unpaid bills.... ....Nearly one-third of the 132,000 lawsuits that Maryland hospitals have filed against patients in the past five years over unpaid bills have been filed in the city District Court, which serves an area where many debtors are "living on the margins," as University of Maryland law professor and former Legal Aid lawyer Michael Millemann puts it. These lawsuits have played out even though hospitals' costs of unpaid bills and provision of free care to the poor are supposed to be covered by the rates paid by all patients, under Maryland's unique rate-setting system. Some of the hospitals that have filed the most lawsuits have received millions of surplus dollars from the payment system. Maryland hospitals have won at least $100 million in judgments against patients in the past five years and placed liens on at least 8,000 homes across the state, despite national hospital industry guidelines that caution against the wholesale use of that practice, an investigation by The Baltimore Sun found. Some hospitals have won judgments against patients covered by Medicaid for bills the giant government health plans didn't pay, despite a Maryland law outlawing that, The Sun found in sampling more than 200 court files. Hundreds of patients have filed complaints with state regulators over billing issues, including allegations that hospitals tried to collect amounts beyond what they agreed to accept under insurance company contracts by going directly after patients. And some hospitals have sued patients three or more years after their stays ended, raising questions about whether the statute of limitations had expired, The Sun found. The court processes can overwhelm debtors, who rarely have lawyers to assist them and often don't even try to defend themselves. At the "rocket docket" and other settlement forums, patients negotiating against hospital lawyers "have no comprehension of the potential defenses that they may have," said Millemann, also a former chief of the civil division of the Maryland attorney general's office. Daniel L. Hatcher, an assistant professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law, said debt collection cases of all types are "completely overwhelming" the district courts. "Even the best judge won't have the resources to give each case justice," he said..... http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUs...555&start=2 << LexisNexis News Home Page The Baltimore Sun January 26, 2009 Monday FINAL EDITION TELEGRAPH; Pg. 1A 1174 words COURTS TRY TO REVISE DEBT SETTLEMENT FOR HOSPITALS James Drew, james.drew@baltsun.com Maryland district court officials want to give defendants in debt collection lawsuits new access to legal help and change the way that settlement conferences are handled, in response to criticism that hospitals, credit card companies and other creditors often have an unfair advantage. The courts are responding to an investigation into hospital debt collection practices published last month by The Baltimore Sun. That report, as well as a University of Maryland law school study released in November, found that defendants are confused by the court process, do not understand that they sometimes have legitimate defenses and assume that they must accept whatever terms are dictated by hospital lawyers in settlement conferences. The Sun also found that hospitals almost always win cases that go before a judge, simply by presenting an affidavit that the person was treated there. The district court system is considering setting up "self-help centers" so that people who cannot afford attorneys can get legal advice. It is also considering using computers to show simulated meetings between attorneys and unrepresented defendants in civil cases, said Ben C. Clyburn, the chief judge of Maryland's district courts. The first change will take effect in two weeks, when defendants assigned to the so-called "rocket docket" in district courts in Baltimore and in Montgomery and Prince George's counties receive new notices about their rights - including that a judge will consider their case if they don't want to, or can't, reach a settlement with creditors' attorneys. That follows a recommendation in the University of Maryland study..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Mauro Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 What freedom do they have? All the freedom they want and choose to work for of course. Those too ill, children of poor and middle class, unable to work or destitute are covered at no cost. Some of course still have the freedom move their lives forward. Others have the FREEDOM to decide to remain wards of the state. Even if some might fail to join the governmental programs they still have the freedom to seek care at free private clinics or as a last resort (or a first resort for many) seek care at emergency rooms. No one can be denied care in the US. Clearly our program can use work, no one has denied that. What most of us resist is total governmental control..... Craig, In civilized ODCs, the bankrupting of the working class as a result of the costs of pursuing treatment for accident and illness does not happen, as, despite your denials, it most certainly happens every day in America. In the rest of the world, right wing efforts to preserve and protect the wealthiest and most powerful are not as dominate, and neither are the views of the right so firmly rooted as they are tioday in the alternate universe you and so many of your fellow American, choose to inhabit. You paint a deceptive picture of life in these United States, and even if you are fortunate enough to be insured, the choice is ceded not to the government or to you, but to you insurer, as far as what is billed to it for your care, vs. what it chooses to pay for. If your insurer decides not to pay, your recourse is the insurance department in your individual state, headed by a former insurance industry executive who will most likely return to a position in that industry, after his public "service". http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-wo...0,2601054.storySecond of three parts Their day in court Hospital debt collection lawsuits can zoom through the courts, pitting experienced law firms against ill-informed defendants By Fred Schulte and James Drew | investigations@baltsun.com December 22, 2008 Every Wednesday at noon, debt collection lawyers take their seats behind a thick wooden table in a downtown Baltimore courtroom for a ritual they call the "rocket docket." It's one way officials at the city District Court try to unclog a backlog of consumer debt lawsuits, including thousands filed by hospitals over unpaid bills.... ....Nearly one-third of the 132,000 lawsuits that Maryland hospitals have filed against patients in the past five years over unpaid bills have been filed in the city District Court, which serves an area where many debtors are "living on the margins," as University of Maryland law professor and former Legal Aid lawyer Michael Millemann puts it. These lawsuits have played out even though hospitals' costs of unpaid bills and provision of free care to the poor are supposed to be covered by the rates paid by all patients, under Maryland's unique rate-setting system. Some of the hospitals that have filed the most lawsuits have received millions of surplus dollars from the payment system. Maryland hospitals have won at least $100 million in judgments against patients in the past five years and placed liens on at least 8,000 homes across the state, despite national hospital industry guidelines that caution against the wholesale use of that practice, an investigation by The Baltimore Sun found. Some hospitals have won judgments against patients covered by Medicaid for bills the giant government health plans didn't pay, despite a Maryland law outlawing that, The Sun found in sampling more than 200 court files. Hundreds of patients have filed complaints with state regulators over billing issues, including allegations that hospitals tried to collect amounts beyond what they agreed to accept under insurance company contracts by going directly after patients. And some hospitals have sued patients three or more years after their stays ended, raising questions about whether the statute of limitations had expired, The Sun found. The court processes can overwhelm debtors, who rarely have lawyers to assist them and often don't even try to defend themselves. At the "rocket docket" and other settlement forums, patients negotiating against hospital lawyers "have no comprehension of the potential defenses that they may have," said Millemann, also a former chief of the civil division of the Maryland attorney general's office. Daniel L. Hatcher, an assistant professor at the University of Baltimore School of Law, said debt collection cases of all types are "completely overwhelming" the district courts. "Even the best judge won't have the resources to give each case justice," he said..... http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUs...555&start=2 << LexisNexis News Home Page The Baltimore Sun January 26, 2009 Monday FINAL EDITION TELEGRAPH; Pg. 1A 1174 words COURTS TRY TO REVISE DEBT SETTLEMENT FOR HOSPITALS James Drew, james.drew@baltsun.com Maryland district court officials want to give defendants in debt collection lawsuits new access to legal help and change the way that settlement conferences are handled, in response to criticism that hospitals, credit card companies and other creditors often have an unfair advantage. The courts are responding to an investigation into hospital debt collection practices published last month by The Baltimore Sun. That report, as well as a University of Maryland law school study released in November, found that defendants are confused by the court process, do not understand that they sometimes have legitimate defenses and assume that they must accept whatever terms are dictated by hospital lawyers in settlement conferences. The Sun also found that hospitals almost always win cases that go before a judge, simply by presenting an affidavit that the person was treated there. The district court system is considering setting up "self-help centers" so that people who cannot afford attorneys can get legal advice. It is also considering using computers to show simulated meetings between attorneys and unrepresented defendants in civil cases, said Ben C. Clyburn, the chief judge of Maryland's district courts. The first change will take effect in two weeks, when defendants assigned to the so-called "rocket docket" in district courts in Baltimore and in Montgomery and Prince George's counties receive new notices about their rights - including that a judge will consider their case if they don't want to, or can't, reach a settlement with creditors' attorneys. That follows a recommendation in the University of Maryland study..... Tom what do your comments have to do with Obama pushing for an British modeled, Nazi euthanasia program here in the United States? At least Craig sees and understands the real issue. You seem to be stuck in the 1960's using this leftist jargon and gibberish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 At least Craig sees and understands the real issue. You seem to be stuck in the 1960's using this leftist jargon and gibberish. It beats the hell out of your 'rightist jargon and gibberish'. The case for the NHS has been well made here. Your arguments and those of Craig have been exposed for what they are - hollow smears designed to defend the indefensible viz. free market capitalism as applied as a means of meeting basic human needs. You are quite entitled to express these views here (we are an open forum), but it would be nice if either of you were to add something new. At present you seem still to be stuck at the stage of drawing a Hitler moustache on Obama and calling it an 'argument'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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