ID of “Alfred from Cuba” in photo with Oswald

[Richard Bertolino]

I don't see the point of involving Souetre in an assassination explanation unless it can be demonstrated that he actually was in Dallas. "Henry Hurt says so," is insufficient evidence.

[Matt Cloud]

9 minutes ago, Richard Bertolino said:

I don't see the point of involving Souetre in an assassination explanation unless it can be demonstrated that he actually was in Dallas. "Henry Hurt says so," is insufficient evidence.

Not clear what your point of contention is.  That's not good enough for you?  Okay.  Yes, there is ambiguity and discrepancies surrounding this story.  

 

Once again:

 

"Souetre argued that it was Mertz, using Souetre’s name, who was in the United States at the time of the Kennedy assassination. “What I find strange is the fact that [Mertz] was there in Dallas the day of the crime and under my identity,” Souetre said."

[Richard Bertolino]

My point of contention is that there seems to be no primary source evidence which implicates Jean Souetre in the assassination of JFK. Of course, we may speculate as we wish. I think the best approach is to investigate people whom we know were there. Souetre seems to have been in France, and he looks more like Oswald himself than Oswald's friend, "Alfred." I'm just saying that this thread needs more evidence to be taken seriously.

[Matt Cloud]

3 minutes ago, Richard Bertolino said:

My point of contention is that there seems to be no primary source evidence which implicates Jean Souetre in the assassination of JFK. Of course, we may speculate as we wish. I think the best approach is to investigate people whom we know were there. Souetre seems to have been in France, and he looks more like Oswald himself than Oswald's friend, "Alfred." I'm just saying that this thread needs more evidence to be taken seriously.

I don't implicate Souerte.  Indeed, I have offered information in Souetre's defense -- his statement saying he wasn't there and that Mertz was using his identity.  I have taken no position and offered no speculation on that matter.

So, as between you and me, I repeat: "not clear what [your] point of contention is."

  

[Matt Cloud]

And as to not taking this thread seriously, why not add something yourself, one way or another, or merely do as I have which is to import here some of the research that has been already done?   Go right ahead.  You're starting a debate over ... what?  Nothing has been established, let alone claimed.

[Richard Bertolino]

Why not add something myself? My very first post included a link to FBI documents. You even thanked me for that. You seem to be striving to make this contentious. My contention is that there seems to be no reason to link Souetre to this topic. If there is one, I'd like to know what it is.

[Matt Cloud]

8 hours ago, Richard Bertolino said:

Why not add something myself? My very first post included a link to FBI documents. You even thanked me for that. You seem to be striving to make this contentious. My contention is that there seems to be no reason to link Souetre to this topic. If there is one, I'd like to know what it is.

Yes!  It seems as though then you should be directing your comments to the original post here, in the first place, whom I pointed out repeated the allegation that "Alfred" was from Cuba, when indeed there is a discrepancy there, too, with the WC stating Alfred was from Hungary.  I have issues with claims throughout this thread, just as you do too, it seems.  Accordingly, direct your fire somewhere else, in that direction please, not mine.

Edited April 12 by Matt Cloud

[Richard Bertolino]

47 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Yes!  It seems as though then you should be directing your comments to the original post here, in the first place, whom I pointed out repeated the allegation that "Alfred" was from Cuba, when indeed there is a discrepancy there, too, with the WC stating Alfred was from Hungary.  I have issues with claims throughout this thread, just as you do too, it seems.  Accordingly, direct your fire somewhere else, in that direction please, not mine.

I was not "firing." I was merely directing my comment to the most reasonable-seeming person around. When I'm firing, everybody will know it and I'll probably be banned. I'm trying to avoid that. I'm trying to be nice. Old dog learning new tricks. The aphorisms are against me. Must be a conspiracy.

[Matt Cloud]

Okay then.  So as we pass from the point of merely laborious into the realm of bizarre, let's clarify: You think there are problems with the Souetre in Dallas claim.  So do I.  To that extent, at least, we are in agreement.  We are aligned.  More, we agree that you have accurately identified the most reasonable-seeming person around.  Now then, i'll take these mutual understandings to suggest we -- by which I mean all readers and would-be contributors here -- move on from this internecine trifle and back to the matter at hand. 

So.  Who is in the pictures alleged to be of Oswald in Minsk?  Is Oswald pictured there actually John Gardos -- who may have gone with his father Emile Gardos into Moscow via Hungary at or around November 1, 1959, at more or less precisely the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald is said to have defected?  Who is this "Alfred?"  Could it be Souetre?  Seems likely, based on physical similarities.  Could it be that by having an Oswald -- whether genuine or a lookalike -- photographed with Souetre, who may have been in some way connected to Angleton, that this trapped Angleton, freezing his mole-hunt?  

These seem like some of the questions wrapped-up in here.

 

Further to the Gardos-Oswald similarities, see here:

 

https://twitter.com/DianaThoma19326/status/1778569688005410890

[Richard Bertolino]

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Okay then.  So as we pass from the point of merely laborious into the realm of bizarre, let's clarify: You think there are problems with the Souetre in Dallas claim.  So do I.  To that extent, at least, we are in agreement.  We are aligned.  More, we agree that you have accurately identified the most reasonable-seeming person around.  Now then, i'll take these mutual understandings to suggest we -- by which I mean all readers and would-be contributors here -- move on from this internecine trifle and back to the matter at hand. 

So.  Who is in the pictures alleged to be of Oswald in Minsk?  Is Oswald pictured there actually John Gardos -- who may have gone with his father Emile Gardos into Moscow via Hungary at or around November 1, 1959, at more or less precisely the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald is said to have defected?  Who is this "Alfred?"  Could it be Souetre?  Seems likely, based on physical similarities.  Could it be that by having an Oswald -- whether genuine or a lookalike -- photographed with Souetre, who may have been in some way connected to Angleton, that this trapped Angleton, freezing his mole-hunt?  

These seem like some of the questions wrapped-up in here.

 

Further to the Gardos-Oswald similarities, see here:

 

https://twitter.com/DianaThoma19326/status/1778569688005410890

I don't understand the serious interest in Souetre. It seems to depend on him being Oswald's Hungarian friend, Alfred. The only evidence of this seems to be that Alfred kinda sorta looks like Souetre in a particular photo. I think Souetre looks more like Oswald than Alfred, and presumably he isn't, so the resemblance evidence seems silly to me. And is Alfred really John Gardos? Just because he is supposed to be from Hungary? Maybe it's a lead to follow up on, if possible, but public discussion of it seems to be a bit premature. All because some crazy lady in CT. said Oswald's father was a Hungarian communist? Sure, if Alfred can be identified, that would be nice. Good luck! It's just a 63-year-old photo of a guy in Minsk. We don't even know what his last name is supposed to be. Even speculation needs more evidence than that.

[Matt Cloud]

32 minutes ago, Richard Bertolino said:

I don't understand the serious interest in Souetre. It seems to depend on him being Oswald's Hungarian friend, Alfred. The only evidence of this seems to be that Alfred kinda sorta looks like Souetre in a particular photo. I think Souetre looks more like Oswald than Alfred, and presumably he isn't, so the resemblance evidence seems silly to me. And is Alfred really John Gardos? Just because he is supposed to be from Hungary? Maybe it's a lead to follow up on, if possible, but public discussion of it seems to be a bit premature. All because some crazy lady in CT. said Oswald's father was a Hungarian communist? Sure, if Alfred can be identified, that would be nice. Good luck! It's just a 63-year-old photo of a guy in Minsk. We don't even know what his last name is supposed to be. Even speculation needs more evidence than that.

You're not keeping up with the standards of reasonableness you purport to admire.  

 

I did not bring up Souetre.  Again, I have offered no proposition as to his involvement.  I merely corrected the original post here to say that the claim that the person picture with Oswald as being Cuban is challenged by other information that he was Hungarian.  Got it?

 

Now, as to Gardos, the consideration of whether he may be the person in the image claimed to be Oswald is not based merely on his being Hungarian.  If you want to get into the merits of the call to the Tippits of Connecticut, probably best to bring that over to that thread.  Briefly I will say here: You assert the caller is crazy.  Well, that diagnosis overlooks the fact that she knew some key, non-public details about Oswald, including his connections to Weinstock and, with respect to Gardos, that Gardos -- Emile Gardos, certainly, and possibly son John, were scheduled to go from Hungary to Moscow, according to FBI sources, at the extact time that Oswld is defecting.  Nov. 1959.  That fact, plus the physical likeness, PLUS the call to the Tippits, all point to John Gardos as being part of an Oswald Program, or at least points to consideration and analysis of the subject, notwithstanding again, your unsupported claim that the caller was crazy.  Got it?

[Richard Bertolino]

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

You're not keeping up with the standards of reasonableness you purport to admire.  

 

I did not bring up Souetre.  Again, I have offered no proposition as to his involvement.  I merely corrected the original post here to say that the claim that the person picture with Oswald as being Cuban is challenged by other information that he was Hungarian.  Got it?

 

Now, as to Gardos, the consideration of whether he may be the person in the image claimed to be Oswald is not based merely on his being Hungarian.  If you want to get into the merits of the call to the Tippits of Connecticut, probably best to bring that over to that thread.  Briefly I will say here: You assert the caller is crazy.  Well, that diagnosis overlooks the fact that she knew some key, non-public details about Oswald, including his connections to Weinstock and, with respect to Gardos, that Gardos -- Emile Gardos, certainly, and possibly son John, were scheduled to go from Hungary to Moscow, according to FBI sources, at the extact time that Oswld is defecting.  Nov. 1959.  That fact, plus the physical likeness, PLUS the call to the Tippits, all point to John Gardos as being part of an Oswald Program, or at least points to consideration and analysis of the subject, notwithstanding again, your unsupported claim that the caller was crazy.  Got it?

What are these "FBI sources?" You have a document?

[Richard Bertolino]

It seems I'm a poor judge of character, or of seeming reasonableness. I am responding here to the "topic." It was Marina who identified "Alfred." My attachment is a cut and paste from page1 of an FBI document to page 7. So part of page 1 appears at the top and the photo description of the photo in question is on the bottom. The FBI asked Marina to identify people in various photographs and her response regarding the topic photo is recorded as: Person standing is believed to be a Hungarian resident of Minsk, Alfred (last name unknown). It does not say whether "Alfred" is standing on the left or on the right, but I'm sure we are to assume that Oswald is Oswald. So the only identification we have depends upon the FBI and Marina. For all we know, "Alfred of Hungary" might really be Frank of Lithuania.

 

Edited April 25 by Richard Bertolino
attachment removed

[Matt Cloud]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:25 PM, Richard Bertolino said:

What are these "FBI sources?" You have a document?

You could have gone to the trouble yourself of looking it up where I directed to you, the thread on the Anonymous call to the Tippits of Connecticut.  But I'll help you all the same.

 

The FBI source is understandably confidential, but you could read the report here:

 

p. 136, second-to-last paragraph.

 

https://archive.org/details/OperationSOLO/SOLO 016/page/n135/mode/2up

 

Perhaps you would be so kind as to insert an image of the pertinent part of the report.  (My upload space is still maxed out but you as a relative newcomer here perhaps have some left.)

 

I'd also direct your attention to the 1960 FBI report on Weinstock, also mentioned in the call by the woman who call "crazy," in which it states that he and CPUSA attorney Mary Metlay Kaufman visited the Soviet and Czech embassies just before the election, possibly transmitting information obtained from Francis Gary Powers on his U-2 shoot-down -- most notably perhaps that (a) the secret police were waiting for Powers when he landed and (b) that Powers had told the Soviet interrogators more than they had asked for.  

 

https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/fbifiles/historical/MaryKaufman-fbi1.pdf.

 

Discussed here:

 

Wait !!!  -- I've just checked that link by the Black Vault and it apparently has been taken down in the last few days.  

 

 

 

 

Here's my twitter post, then on the subject:

 

"Always get tape, Frank."

Edited April 15 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

On 4/13/2024 at 12:23 AM, Richard Bertolino said:

It seems I'm a poor judge of character, or of seeming reasonableness. I am responding here to the "topic." It was Marina who identified "Alfred." My attachment is a cut and paste from page1 of an FBI document to page 7. So part of page 1 appears at the top and the photo description of the photo in question is on the bottom. The FBI asked Marina to identify people in various photographs and her response regarding the topic photo is recorded as: Person standing is believed to be a Hungarian resident of Minsk, Alfred (last name unknown). It does not say whether "Alfred" is standing on the left or on the right, but I'm sure we are to assume that Oswald is Oswald. So the only identification we have depends upon the FBI and Marina. For all we know, "Alfred of Hungary" might really be Frank of Lithuania.

Well done.  You have helped make my point, and even added supporting documentary materials.   Anything else?  Anything else you don't think should be talked about?