FBI, the mob, and 9/11

[Len Colby]

Now that I'm back home with our slow internet, i don't do YouTube.

Could you summarise the claims and who they are made by?

Barry Jennings who worked at the Office of Emergency Management (OEM) “bunker” on the 23rd floor of 7 WTC said he got there around the time of the 2nd crash. He and a city lawyer were the only people there. On the way down the stairs they heard explosions. When they were on the 6th floor an explosion took out the rest of the staircase and they retreated to the 8th floor. He insists the explosions proceeded the collapses of either tower. The 2 men were rescued hours later. He said the lobby was totally obliterated and that as instructed by the FDNY he didn’t look down but could “tell” he was stepping on bodies.

------------------------------

No one else reported explosions in 7 WTC before the towers collapsed. The most obvious explanation is that Jennings was simply mistaken about the time and the “explosions” he heard were indeed the buildings collapsing. He never clearly indicated how he "knew" the towers had not collapsed yet. He said he got to the OEM around the time of the 2nd crash (i.e. about 9:03) and it already had been evacuated. But most accounts have it being evacuated around 9:30. As even the Complete 9/11 Timeline notes according to several accounts it was order evacuated do to false reports of a 3rd plane headed towards NYC and such report came around 9:30.

"The headquarters of New York’s Office of Emergency Management (OEM), which is on the 23rd floor of WTC Building 7, is evacuated at approximately 9:30 a.m., according to the 9/11 Commission.…A senior OEM official orders the evacuation after being told by a Secret Service agent that additional commercial planes are unaccounted for (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001)"

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context...vac#a930oemevac

From the linked entry:

"

(9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Emergency Responders Receive False Report of a Third Plane Approaching New York

“Emergency responders in the lobby of the north WTC tower hear an unconfirmed report of a third plane heading toward New York. … The third plane report is soon found to be incorrect.… The source of the incorrect report is apparently Richard Rotanz, the deputy director of the New York Office of Emergency Management (OEM), who is reportedly in the OEM command center on the 23rd floor of WTC Building 7… this false threat reportedly leads to the evacuation of the OEM command center as well (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [City of New York, 10/25/2001]”

Several accounts have the warning occurring at around 9:30

“By 9:30 a.m., after both planes had struck, a rumor was circulating that a third hijacked plane was headed to New York.”

NY Times 7/7/2002

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...mp;pagewanted=3

“At approximately 9:30 a.m., personnel in the lobby of WTC 1 heard an unconfirmed report of a threat from a third plane.”

FDNY 8/19/2002

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/mck_repor...ns_response.pdf

“At 9:30 a.m., commanders in the lobby received a report of a third inbound plane”

Fire Engineering 9/2002

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/ar....html?id=158382

According to an AP reporter who heard recording of FDNY radio communications, the false report of the third plane came “6 minutes” after 9:25

A firefighter named Scott on the 48th floor of the south tower reports at 9:25 a.m.: "I just got a report from the director of Morgan Stanley. Seventy-eight (floor) seems to have taken the brunt of the stuff. There's a lot of bodies. They said the stairway is clear all the way up, though."

Both towers had already been struck by the hijacked airliners, but six minutes later, another firefighter warns a comrade, "We got reports of another incoming plane. You may have to take cover. Stay in the stairwell."

AP 11/16/2002:

http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/1...02/a01wn017.htm

According Wayne Barrett and Dan Collins in their book Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11 which was critical of Giuliani and his administration’s response on 9/11. “Giuliani arrived [at a command post on the other side of West Street] at 9:20” (pg 341) and apparently several minute later “Hector Santiago, a member of [Police Commissioner] Kerik's detail, heard the false alarm of a third plane over the radio,” and shortly there after the mayor and police brass moved to 75 Barclay St. (page 342)

Earlier in the book the author’s claimed, “soon after [OEM director Richard] Sheirer got the plane threat information, he left the lobby because, he said, he was summoned to join Giuliani at 75 Barclay Street, where the police had set up a command post for the mayor.” (Pg 34)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060536608..._pt#reader-link [Enter appropriate keywords – (free) registration required

According to Amanda Griscom in New York Magazine “Minutes after they [sheirir and the Fire Commissioner Thomas Von Essen] arrived at Barclay, the second tower collapsed” 2 WTC collapsed at 9:59. Her article also seems to put the evacuation well after the 2nd crash

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5270/

Other accounts indicate directly that the evacuation happen around 9:30 or latter. For example Von Essen said in a 2004 interview:

"When the South Tower got hit, there was more confusion… I was in the lobby [of 1 WTC] quite a while, I guess. Somebody told me the mayor was looking for me. They said he was over at the other command post…I ran across the street. The mayor had already left…A few more minutes went by, I don't really know how long but again somebody told me the mayor was looking for me. So I left and walked over to the Office of Emergency Management, at 7 World Trade Center. I thought that was where we should all be because that’s what [it] was built for. But they were evacuating that building. I was really upset. I said, “How can we be evacuating OEM? We really need it now.”

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060514337...0&go=Go%21#

Von Essen’s account that he crossed West Street “quite a while” after the 2nd crash (9:03) but the Mayor had already left correlates with Barrett and Collins’ account that Giuliani arrived at 9:20 and left shortly thereafter. “A few more minutes” later could well have been 9:30 – 45. His account was also confirmed by another member of the FDNY. EMT Richard Zarrillo reported that:

“I'm not sure of the exact time, but I believe as we were coming over the Brooklyn Bridge was when the second plane hit the second tower. We parked -- I want to say it's on like Broadway right off of Vesey Street, between Vesey and Barclay. Captain Nahmod and I started heading down Vesey Street towards where we thought the command post would be. At that time we had received a page per Chief Peruggia to go into OEM at No. 7 World Trade and activate our post in OEM. Captain Nahmod and I were running down Vesey Street stepping over airplane pieces, several bodies and whatnot. Abdo and I went into No. 7, activated OEM, placed calls to EMS Citywide, RCC, to tell them we were there and we were activated. Maybe five, ten minutes, not even ten minutes later, a rep from OEM came into the main room and said we need to evacuate the building; there's a third plane inbound.”

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110161.PDF (pgs 3 - 4)

So he remembered crossing the Brooklyn Bridge at the time of the 2nd crash (9:03) then parking on Broadway between Barkley and Vesey. According to Ask Maps the drive to Broadway and Vesey takes 2 minutes from the Manhattan side and 3 minutes from the Brooklyn side of the bridge, according to Yahoo and Google it takes 8 – 10 minutes from the Brooklyn side, and the walk to 7 WTC takes 5 minutes*, thus it’s normally 7 – 8 minutes for the route Zarrillo described. Even if we assume

* http://tiny.cc/AskMap

a) it took only 3 minutes because he came in an Emergency vehicle and ran part of the way and despite the fact it was rush hour, other sources say it takes 8 – 10 minutes, and he had to step over bodies and debris. and

activating his OEM post and making the calls took only 2 minutes,

5 – 10 minutes later would have been 9:13 – 18. This is a little before other reports but it’s a best case scenario and later in the interview he admitted “Again, times are a little fuzzy initially for me.” (pg 5). In any case it places the evacuation well after the time recalled by Jennings and confirms that the evacuation of the OEM was triggered by the false report of the third incoming plane.

According to NIST “at approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city and news that the Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7. (Sheirer 2004) This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor….A guard met the Commissioner [Von Essen] in the lobby and ordered him and his staff out of the building. The guard told him, “This building has been evacuated.” and that “OEM, the mayor, they’re all gone.”

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-8.pdf [PDF pg 163]

The later time is corroborated by a report prepared by the Mineta Transportation Institute at San Jose State University:

As OEM staff began calling in from all over the city, the sound of the second plane striking Tower 2 was heard by dispatch center staff over their radio…OEM staff immediately called for air security over New York City... At 9:17 A.M., the FAA shut down New York City's three commercial airports; at 9:40 A.M., it grounded all flights in U.S. airspace.

The OEM staff was ordered to evacuate Building 7 immediately as a precaution, but interview sources indicate they did not initially respond with a sense of urgency. They calmly collected personal belongings and began removing OEM records, but they were urged to abandon everything and leave the building quickly. Those interviewed believe that order saved their lives.

http://transweb.sjsu.edu/mtiportal/researc...Sept11.book.htm

The timeline (op. cit.) does say, “however, some accounts indicate the command center may have been evacuated earlier” but this is only based on 2 accounts one is Jennings' and other is this quote from Barrett and Collins’ book (op cit)

“[The OEM director’s] top deputy and eventual replacement, John Odermatt, was also at the North Tower and says that from the moment the first plane hit, he left only two staffers at the center.” [ pg 34]

But assuming Odermatt’s recollection was accurate and he was accurately paraphrased 2 people isn’t evacuated and other staff could have arrived between 8:47 and 9:30 – 9:44, the normal time to start work in the US is 9 AM. Jennings claim that "coffee that was on the desk, smoke was still coming off the coffee, I saw half eaten sandwiches" contradicts the notion there were only 2 people there after 8:46.

I did find one part of Jennings’ story credible. He described severe structural damage to the lower portions of 7 WTC hours before it collapsed. “Truthers normally claim the damage was minor.

EDIT - Typos fixed

Edited June 26, 2008 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Jennings said he arrived before either/any building's collapse and our apologist tries to skew that.

No skewing, I think he was mistaken. I presented evidence that was the case, you're in a tiff because you can’t rebut it.

The above post is so full of inacuracies and outright untruths, it is not worth rebutting.

Typical lame cop out by someone who can’t show error in their opponent’s evidence/arguments. If it were true you should able to effortlessly point our errors

Statements such as 'no others said there were explosions in Bldg. 7 are just outright untruths

Then I presume you can cite a list of others who said they heard such explosions.

Further, the above does not have the wording/writing style of our forum apologist and is IMO written by someone else

So you’re a forensic linguistics expert now!?!? LOL. Care to cite any of these stylistic differences?

Our Forum's Administration apologist has repeatedly attacked first-hand witnesses for their testimory - he knowing 'better' from afar.....anyone who gives him a shred of credibility is naive and also in denial, IMO

Repeatedly? I can only think of 3 or 4 cases. Of course denial of witness testimony is part and parcel of the “theories” you espouse.

Dozens of witnesses saw Boeings crash into the WTC, Pentagon and Pennsylvania field but you don’t believe them.

The pilots from Otis said they flew as fast as they could to NYC but you don’t believe them either.

The coroner from Shanksville said he personally identified many of the human remains, but you don’t believe him either.

Numerous firefighters said they knew for hours WTC 7 was going to collapse due to the raging fires and structural damage but you don’t believe them either. Shall I go on?

In believing Jennings you have to believe all the people I cited who said i) they were in the OEM bunker when the 2nd plane hit ii) spoke to someone there after the plane hit iii) it was only evacuated well after the 2nd crash are mistaken or lying.

I don’t believe witnesses who are contradicted by numerous others or who contradict themselves. Some witnesses get confused, a woman identified her husband, who was white, was the man who raped and beat her but DNA proved that another man, who was black, committed the crime. Patricia Ormavic (sp?) An EMT who responded to 9/11 said she saw a passenger jet explode over NJ just after the South Tower collapsed.

Mineta I believe was mistaken, Rodriguez is a xxxx. I used to believe Jennings was simply mistaken but like Rodriguez his story has changed. The following is from an article in the Boston Globe datelined 9/11/01

"After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel.

They were the only ones there.

They felt and heard another explosion,

probably the collapse of one building

.

He broke a window and screamed for help.

Then they went down a stairwell

.

"I told Hess, `We've got to try to get out of here."' They got to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I thought I was dead. The whole building shook. ... I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell. It was like a bad movie."

Though covered in soot,

Jennings was not physically injured

. He said Hess escaped safely as well."

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/11/tower_scene.htm

Besides the obvious there are other contradictions between this account and his current story. He know claims to have been trapped for hours (5:08) being rescued by the FDNY and said his knees were so swollen he had to crawl through the lobby (6:05).

One could argue the Boston reporter misunderstood him but we have following from the next day’s Daily News

As the first explosion rocked their building,

Hess and Jennings made it safely down to the lobby

- except the lobby was gone.

"I thought I was dead," Jennings said. "It looked like hell."

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2..._lucky_few.html

In these and other accounts datelined 9/11 - 9/13/2001 no mention is made of being rescued or being trapped. the stairs being blown away, not being able to walk or stepping on dead bodies.

Oh and your original "points"

..threats to this poor guy who was a victim?!....

So far I haven't heard him say this, the claim comes from Bemas

...explosions in Bldg. 7 before any towers came down....

already rebutted

...the sudden evacuation of the Emergency Center for NYC - never explained.....

Long since explained you were too lazy to do minimal research the info even appears in the "Complete 9/11 Timeline"

...the warning to run because there are going to be more explosions...

On this makes a lot of sense, they let thousand of their fellow citizens and hundreds of fellow police and firemen die in the collapses but risked detection by warning a stranger. Bemas' and Jones' vilification of and accusations against the Police and Fire Department rank and file is truly vile. It looks like you're going down that path.

EDIT - Typos fixed and minor changes to the text made.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Len Colby

[Evan Burton]

Well said Len!

Peter cries....

[Len Colby]

I saw a video clip of Jennings from 9/11 and read about a similar clip of Michael Hess in which they say they were trapped for an hour - hour and a half. NIST also said they were trapped and rescued by firefighters. Thus I was probablly premature in suggesting he changed his story. The info is still a bit contradictory. Hopefully I'll be able to sort it out by tomorrow.

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-8.pdf (pgs 109 - 110)

[Paul Rigby]

Well said Len!

Peter cries....

That is truly one of the most immature and undignified posts I have seen from a moderator on any site. Ever.

Servile adherence to the American imperium's lies has that effect. Even on Aussies, ordinarily a robustly independent-minded bunch. A shame.

[Len Colby]

Well said Len!

Peter cries....

That is truly one of the most immature and undignified posts I have seen from a moderator on any site. Ever.

Servile adherence to the American imperium's lies has that effect. Even on Aussies, ordinarily a robustly independent-minded bunch. A shame.

Though not from a moderator Peter’s post (# 5) was exceedingly “immature and undignified” it doesn’t qualify for any superlatives because he has done far worse. As is quite normal for him he responded to a post he couldn’t rebut with insults and baseless accusations. I didn’t take his bait and respond in kind but rather replied with facts further debunking his claims. Evan was applauding me (literally) for responding to Peter’s personal attacks calmly and because I proved my case. So Peter*, Paul and Jan (and Dean) tell us, under the circumstances, what exactly was “immature and undignified” about him saying “Well said Len! Peter cries…HELP”

* I assume he will object as well.

[Paul Rigby]

Evan was applauding me (literally) for responding to Peter’s personal attacks calmly and because I proved my case. So Peter*, Paul and Jan (and Dean) tell us, under the circumstances, what exactly was “immature and undignified” about him saying “Well said Len! Peter cries…HELP”

* I assume he will object as well.

As a moderator, Evan's action was equivalent to the referee in a soccer match pulling down his shorts and mooning at the players of one side, then pulling his shorts back up and shaking the hand of the captain of the other team.

I expect moderators to insist, even handedly, on some sort of order and decorum amidst passionate and heated debate.

Evan is a disciple of the Mark Clattenberg school of impartiality, for the benefit of the unitiated. Follow this link for the whole outrageous story. Be warned - you may well weep as you peruse this shameful tale:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle2716956.ece

[Evan Burton]

Well said Len!

Peter cries....

That is truly one of the most immature and undignified posts I have seen from a moderator on any site. Ever.

Then you don't get out enough.

[Evan Burton]

Blah blah blah blah

Not a real quote, but the content (or lack of it) is the same nonetheless.

I will say one thing however, Peter: you claim I have tried to get rid of you. Once again, you are misinformed. When possible action against you was discussed, I voted AGAINST suspending you.

[Len Colby]

The evidence that Jennings was simply mistaken about the timing and nature of the explosion is overwhelming.

Michael Hess, the man who was trapped with Jennings, was interviewed on WOR-TV (channel 9) minutes after being rescued. According to ‘ryknolesdunnflea’, a “truther” over at 9/11 Blogger, the interview started at 11:59. In response to the question “Where is the mayor located now?” he replied “I don’t know, myself, as I said- I was trapped in 7 World Trade Center for the last hour and a half.” [1] thus he placed the explosion very close to the time of the North Tower collapse which had occurred just over 90 minutes earlier at 10:28. As the “truther” noted, NIST said they were evacuated at 12:10 – 15 [ 2], which obviously was incorrect if he correctly calculated the time of the interview (‘ryknolesdunnflea’ originally said the interview occurred at 11:34). However such an error, presumably based on witness statements, would not conflict with the explosion happening at 10:28.

Ryknolesdunnflea’ also noted that Hess said earlier in the interview that he was trapped for “about an hour and a half”. Since it would be unreasonable to assume Hess was interviewed immediately after he was evacuated especially since his location was reported as being "on Broadway a block from city hall" about 5 minutes away this could indicate an explosion time slightly before 10:28. However as even the “truther” acknowledged ‘this may still [fall] ‘in the margin of error of "[about] an hour and a half"’ [ 3]. The elapsed time between being rescued and being interviewed could simply have been equal to his “over” estimate of how long they had been trapped. The fact that he gave the same estimates of the elapsed time from the explosion suggests the interview occurred shortly after he was freed. In any case Hess placed the explosion about 30 minutes after the collapse of the South Tower, which Jennings said it preceded.

Jennings it should be noted initially estimated they were trapped for less time. Shortly after being evacuated he was interviewed by ABC news in a clip broadcast by the BBC and perhaps others he said he broke a window shortly after the explosion and called for help but the firemen “couldn’t get to us for an hour because they couldn’t find us” [ 4]. This was in sharp contradiction to his more recent claim that they were trapped for “several hours” [5 ]. He probably realized that the timing didn’t work out with the shorter estimate. If the explosion occurred shortly after the 2nd crash (9:03) as his comments indicate and before the 1st collapse (9:59) and they were only trapped for an hour they would have been out by 10:20 – 11:00 which obviously didn’t happen.

He also changed his explanation as to why it took the firemen so long to rescue them while initially it was “because they couldn’t find us” in his later interview it was because they ran away due to the collapses of the twin towers [6].Tom Hays, a reporter for AP who directly quoted Jennings for a story datelined 9/11/01 reported, “They were the only ones there. They felt and heard another explosion, probably the collapse of one building” [7] . It’s unclear though if that was what Jennings told him or simply what the journalist surmised. The next two sentences were, “He broke a window and screamed for help. Then they went down a stairwell” but we know they only went down the stairs with the help of the FD after about an hour and a half.

There are other contradictions between Jennings’ and Hess’ September 2001 accounts of what happened and the former’s later claims. No mention was made by either man of the stairs being blown away or there being bodies in the lobby. Several accounts indicate they were evacuated via the stairs [8]. NIST’s account of what happened based on interviews with the two men in 2004 is not surprisingly very close to Jennings’ and Hess’ statements given minutes after the fact.

"When they got to the 6th floor, WTC 1 collapsed, the lights went out in the staircase, the sprinklers came on briefly, and the staircase filled with smoke and debris. The two men went back to the 8th floor broke out a window and called for help. Firefighters on the ground saw them and went up the stairs. In addition, a security officer for one of the businesses in the building was also was trapped on the 7th floor by the smoke in the stairway. As the firefighters went up, they vented the stairway and cleared some of the smoke. They first met the security officer on the 7th floor and firefighters escorted him down the stairs. Other firefighters from the group continued up the stairs, shined their flashlight through the staircase smoke and called out. The two trapped men on the 8th floor saw the flashlight beam and heard the firefighters calling and went down the stairway. The firefighters took the men outside and directed them away from the building."[9]

Hess’ complete statement was:

"I was up in the emergency management center on the twenty-third floor, and when all the power went out in the building, uh, another gentleman and I walked down to the eighth floor where there was an explosion and we were trapped on the eighth floor with smoke, thick smoke, all around us, for about an hour and a half. But the New York Fire Department, as terrific as they are, just came and got us out." [10]

So the stairs it seems were not blown away they were merely obscured by smoke and possibly rubble. Nor did either many make any mention of seeing bodies in the lobby. The only thing along those lines was the following from Newsday:

Jennings, of Medford, has spent the week since the attacks in a numb haze, he said. His doctor has prescribed sleeping pills, and he saw a psychiatrist Friday. He has lost track of what day it is.

"It's not getting any better for me," Jennings said yesterday. "With everybody telling me how lucky I am and then to watch them pull the bodies from the wreckage [on television]. Oh boy, you don't know ... "

[11]

Jennings not surprisingly was quite traumatized by his experience, this may have shaped his later perception of what happened, odd though if he had stepped on the bodies of dead people on his way out of the building he worked in he would mention instead being bothered by seeing bodies being pulled from the wreckage on TV.

Jennings claimed the explosion occurred before either tower collapsed. We are supposed to infer that the same explosion led to the damage and death he described in the lobby. However the FDNY was treating a few injured people there and only evacuated after the South Tower collapsed at 9:59. None reported feeling an explosion.

EMS Division Chief John Peruggia was in charge, he described the lobby being struck by debris from the collapse of the more distant of the Twin Tower and ordering the evacuation.

The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black….I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe…I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water.

They proceeded to evacuate that group along with some secret service people.

[12]

So Jennings is simply wrong about the “explosion” preceding the 1st collapse. Unless Peruggia and the others there were “in on it” (as Jones and Bemas like to charge[13]) or an explosion strong enough to destroy the stair case was not noticed by the firemen it only occurred sometime after the first collapse.

Earlier in the interview Peruggia indicated that 1) The OEM was still active after the 2nd crash [14] and it was only evacuated due to a report of a third incoming plane [15], 2) He “had already given directions to two of the staff to respond there, as well as a representative from the fire First Division” [16]

Thus there should have been at least three people in the OEM who reported there after Odermatt said he left only two staffers there. In my previous post I linked reports that staff reported there after the 1st crash. Here we have additional corroboration it was still staffed until it was evacuated due to the report of the incoming plane.

So either one believes what Jennings says now or one believes Peruggia, Hess, all the the people I cited in my previous posts and sometimes even what Jennings said September 11, 2001 - 2004. Thruthers, I imagine will opt for the former option under the logic that even when numerous witnesses/exprts contradict them they will take as gospel the claims of anyone who supports their theories.

Except for NIST’s cited rescue time the following timeline fits all accounts other than Jennings:

8:46 - Flight 11 hits WTC 1 - John Odermatt, deputy director of the OEM leaves on 2 staffers there and goes to the lobby of the North Tower (WTC 1) were he meets his boss and other senior officials. “OEM staff began calling in from all over the city” and arrive at the “bunker” later.

9:03 – Flight 175 hits WTC 2 – This was “heard by [OEM] dispatch center staff over their radio”. “OEM staff immediately called for air security over New York City” Shortly after this EMS Division Chief John Peruggia arrives at the scene having “already given directions” for 3 people to report to the OEM which he reported was “active” at this time. WTC 7 is ordered evacuated only the OEM staff on the 23rd floor, a security guard who was rescued on the 7th floor and security guards, emergency personnel and few patients they are treating in the lobby remain.

9:30 (approximately) – Reports are received of a 3rd incoming plane leading to the evacuation of the OEM.

9:45 (approximately) – The OEM has been evacuated but the personnel and injured in the lobby remain.

9:50 (?) – Hess and Jennings meet in the lobby of 7 WTC they go up to the 23rd floor but it’s locked. They go back to the lobby and go back up with security guard who lets them in. Jennings makes a few phone calls.

9:59 - The South Tower collapses - Peruggia orders the lobby evacuated. The lights go out temporarily in building 7. Hess and Jennings decide to or are told to leave. They try the elevator but it isn’t working. Hess finds the stairs and they start walking down.

10:28 – The North Tower collapses causing the stairs in 7 WTC to become blocked by smoke and debris. Hess and Jennings reached the 6th floor but retreat to the 8th. Jennings breaks a window a call for help, he is heard by a civilian who informs the firemen at the scene.

11:50 (approximately) – Hess, Jennings and the guard on the 7th floor are rescued by the FDNY.

11:59 – Hess is interviewed live by WOR at about this time perhaps a few minutes earlier Jennings is interviewed by ABC.

Notes:

1] http://www.911blogger.com/node/10425 [see subsequent posts for changes in the time estimate] , most of the actual interview can be seen in the clip linked here at 6:20

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=380...p;postcount=149

2] http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf pg L-18 [PDF pg 22]

3] http://www.911blogger.com/node/10425 For reason that are unclear ‘ryknolesdunnflea’ assumed “a block from city hall” meant a block north when a block south would have been a lot closer

4] The full quote was: “We made it to the 8th floor. Big explosion. Blew us back into the 8th floor, and I turned to Hess. I said, ‘this is it; we’re dead. We’re not gonna make it out of here.’ I took a fire extinguisher and I bust the window out. That’s when this gentleman here heard my cries for help. This gentleman right here. And he kept saying, ‘Stand by. Somebody’s coming to get you.’ They couldn’t get to us for an hour because they couldn’t find us."

http://is124.ce.psu.edu/Edcomm/WITNweb/2423/script.html [The transcript was from a Pennsylvania public TV station but it corresponds to his comments on this BBC clip which unfortunately cuts off before the end http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4255952464194973226

5]

at 5:08, quoted here www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2008/062308_dead_bodies.htm

6]

[5:01]

7] http://www.boston.com/news/daily/11/tower_scene.htm

8] “After the second plane hit they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Mr. Jennings said.” The Independent, 9/13/2001 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn41...n14406465/print “First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it.” AP, 9/11/01 http://archives.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm “He broke a window and screamed for help. Then they went down a stairwell” Boston Globe 9/11/01 http://www.boston.com/news/daily/11/tower_scene.htm

9] http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-8.pdf pgs 109 - 110 [PDF pgs 163 -4]

10] http://www.911blogger.com/node/10425 the actual interview can be seen in the clip linked here at 6:20

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=380...p;postcount=149

11] Katie Thomas, America's Ordeal / Their Trauma Continues to Unfold, Newsday, September 19, 2001. Only available through online purchase http://tiny.cc/newsbank

.

12] Peruggia interview –

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives...pts/9110160.PDF [pgs 20 -1]

13] They never specifically accused Peruggia or those he said were with him but they have repeatedly accused the members of the FDNY especially those at 7 WTC of complicity.

14] Peruggia (op. cit.) pgs 5, 6 – 7

15] Ibid pg 8

16] Ibid pg. 7

[Len Colby]

His recent entry of an out of context statement made to him by me [in response to his harrassment of me on the forum] in a private email is a new low.

Out of context? I’ll let anyone interested enough to read your entire message be the judge of that. The only changes I made were removing our e-mail addresses and a generic footer from the forum. Fair warning Peter if you send me another e-mail or PM that I consider harassing I will divulge its contents and your e-mail address.

<Removed by Moderator>

Your complaint that I divulged a “private” e-mail shows supreme hypocrisy on your part because you divulged e-mails sent to you by: Ms. Kor, an aide to Simon Wiesenthal, Tony van Renterghem and perhaps others that I forgot about or was never aware of without the senders permission, in the former case you asked for but did not get such permission..

My position is clear and consistent; someone who sends a harassing e-mail/PM should have no expectation of privacy.

Explain how I “harassed” YOU

“He has also contacted archives I was using to try to poison the waters there for me, and in an unsucesful attempt to debunk some of my claims.”

If anyone who isn’t familiar with what Peter is referring to and is so interested they can read about the incident he is referring to starting here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=130741

I did nothing inappropriate. Even David who is hardly a fan wrote “But I have to at least commend you for rolling up your sleeves and sending the email.” (post # 33)

As to how much damage I did to your claims on that thread I’m content to let others be the judge.

“His actions are shameless, and more so that they are cheered on by one of the moderators”

He cheered a specific post, can you point out anything “shameless” about it?

“[who has been successful in having at least one progressive removed from the Forum and attempted to get others off - Jack White and myself to name but two.]”

Jack was put on moderation not removed; he was repeatedly warned to refrain from the type of behavior that led to his being disciplined. John and a majority of the moderators agreed he had stepped over the line too many times. Do you have any evidence he tried to have you put on moderation? You are the most blatant violator of the forum’s rules and you’re still here.

“They both seem to have taken on the whitemansburden of seeing that any thread critical of the official 911 conspiracy theory and offering evidence of another [possibly indside one] should bear their posts at the end at all times.”

Something I saved up for a rainy day

“Burton is also famous for his contentless but negative and nasty posts such as "Bollocks!" and other childish tripe.”

Funny that someone who calls others “Kapo”, “SS” like, “brownxxxx”, “clown”, “borg” etc etc and the author of post # 5 of this thread etc etc would complain about others making “negative and nasty posts” with no sense of irony.

“Colby is fond of character assassination - both to those on the Forum [and having started it in all cases I know of of 'feuds']”

Note that initially I didn’t attack Jennings’ character I indicated I thought he was mistaken. Based on newspaper articles that quoted him indirectly I later said he changed his story but corrected it after a few hours. I never attacked Mineta’s character. Rodriguez is xxxx though. As for me “starting feuds” how many examples can you cite, the only cases I can think of that could be so described are the threads I started when I though Fetzer was being less than honest (or proposing a coup). The feud on this thread was of course started by you.

“Your analogy to mooning is apt.”

No it was rubbish, being a moderator doesn’t preclude Evan from expressing his opinion, he did so in a polite and appropriate way. Neither Jan nor Paul nor you have explained why his comment was inappropriate.

“In the end they try to cause 'food fights' and thus disrupt threads and attempt to discredit any real discussion of the issues within them.”

Quite ironic coming from the initiator of this “food fight” who seems to have given up on arguing the facts relating to this case.

Edited July 3, 2008 by Evan Burton
Removed private communication

[Charles Drago]

WARNING: In my personal opinion: "Len Colby" is an agent provocateur, a breeder of disinformation. It is likely that "he" is in fact a composite character, a fiction created to attack the truth and those who speak it. But even if "Colby" exists as advertised, "he" yet serves the agendas of the assassins of John F. Kennedy. Informed, cynical readings of "his" posts will lead to deeper understandings of our enemies, their methods, and their goals.

[Len Colby]

WARNING: In my personal opinion: "Len Colby" is an agent provocateur, a breeder of disinformation. It is likely that "he" is in fact a composite character, a fiction created to attack the truth and those who speak it. But even if "Colby" exists as advertised, "he" yet serves the agendas of the assassins of John F. Kennedy. Informed, cynical readings of "his" posts will lead to deeper understandings of our enemies, their methods, and their goals.

[Guest David Guyatt]

WARNING: In my personal opinion: "Len Colby" is an agent provocateur, a breeder of disinformation. It is likely that "he" is in fact a composite character, a fiction created to attack the truth and those who speak it. But even if "Colby" exists as advertised, "he" yet serves the agendas of the assassins of John F. Kennedy. Informed, cynical readings of "his" posts will lead to deeper understandings of our enemies, their methods, and their goals.

Thank you Charles. (sentence edited). Please be a more frequent visitor here.

David

Edited July 4, 2008 by David Guyatt

[Evan Burton]

Burton is also famous for his contentless but negative and nasty posts such as "Bollocks!" and other childish tripe.

I should also remark, IIRC, I used the term ONCE. Other moderators said they thought it inappropriate, so - although I thought it harmless enough - I removed it.

Now, in keeping with the call for more rigid enforcement of the rules:

1. Please take any further complaints about moderators to the complaints thread; off-topic posts will be MOVED (not deleted) to an appropriate thread.

2. Len - Do NOT quote from a private communication UNLESS all parties have agreed. If you feel that the content of a PM is relevant and needs to be revealed, speak to John or Andy; they will make a decision on it. This includes signature lines. First & final warning on the matter.

Thank you.