Terrorist Attack on London

[Graham Davies]

Just an aferthought to my last message. My wife comes from a working-class community in Belfast, a city which has been subjected to terrorist onslaughts ever since I met her in the mid-1960s - and which I have experienced at first-hand on several occasions while visiting the city. I can only recall being gripped by real fear on one occasion, namely in 1969 when we were (literally) dodging bullets in the lower Shankill Road that were being fired at us from the Divis Street flats. On several other occasions I heard bomb blasts and gun fire and saw the immediate after-effects.

People's reactions to terrorism are initially fear, followed quickly by anger and a determination not to allow the terrorists to win. I think this spirit is very much in evidence in London right now. Belfast has survived, and when I visited the city a couple of weeks ago it was clean, bustling with life and boasts some of the best music pubs in the UK. Every night is Saturday night in Belfast.

In one respect the terrorists did Belfast a favour, forcing the city planners to pedestrianise the city centre (cutting down the danger of car bombs) and limiting traffic to public transport and taxis. They also forced the city planners to think carefuly about city design in general, making it safer for everybody with regard to general crime as well as terrorist crime. I can think of few car parks in Belfast with stair wells in which muggers can easily hide and I cannot recall using a dangerous pedestrian underpass (which we have in my home town and where innocent people are constantly being attacked).

I don't think the wars in Iraq and in Afghanistan are the main cause of the rise of terrorism in the UK - they are merely an excuse for acts of violence against the UK and the USA. It goes deeper than that and goes back much further. The twin towers were hit before both of these wars started. And France, which is one of the most vocal opponents of the war in Iraq, has also been targeted by terrorists because of the ban on the wearing of religious symbols in schools - a policy which is clearly directed against Muslims even if this is officially denied. The state of Bavaria in Germany (in common with several other German states) implements a similar policy and makes it quite obvious that it is targeting Muslims as it doesn't ban the wearing of Jewish and Christian symbols:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4005931.stm

[John Simkin]

Report just published on the BBC website:

A number of Tube stations have been evacuated and lines closed after three blasts in what Met Police chief Sir Ian Blair says is a "serious incident".

Sir Ian appealed to Londoners to stay where they were and said the transport system was effectively being shut down.

The minor explosions - just two weeks after blasts killed 56 - involved detonators only, a BBC reporter said.

In addition, a blast was reported on the top deck of a Number 26 bus in Hackney Road in Bethnal Green.

Initial tests at Oval station revealed no traces of any chemical agent, police said.

Police said officers in protective clothing had been deployed to Warren Street to examine the scene.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

What the hell's this now, crank up the terror,Englands version of the anthrax attacks.....

[John Simkin]

According to the BBC there was only one injury. Police sources say a number of fugitives are being sought. Two people were arrested in Whitehall.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm

[Derek McMillan]

Readers will be aware that my brother was imprisoned in South Africa and spent a period in hospital immediately afterwards as a consequence.

In South Africa at that time they had the Suppression of Communism Act known as the "Ninety Day Law" this enabled the Security Services to imprison people for ninety days without charge or trial. In practice they could imprison people indefinitely because they could rearrest them for a further ninety days.

Today Tony Blair, using the terrorist attacks in London as a pretext, held meetings with the chiefs of the police and they have raised the spectre of a "Ninety Day Law" in England.

The claim has been made that this will only be for terrorist suspects. I do not believe that imprisoning people like myself or my children who are anti-war and anti-capitalist activists will help prevent further terrorist outrages.

I wait to see how that hypocrite Peter Hain will respond to this. He was famous as an opponent of the Apartheid regime but he has kowtowed to every erosion of democratic rights in the UK using the figleaf of the war on terror. (If it is possible to kowtow using a figleaf!)

[Adam Wilkinson]

Breaking news on BBC: A suspected suicide bomber has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell station in South London.

A man has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell Tube station, as police hunt four would-be bombers.

Passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers" with a handgun.

"I saw the gun being fired five times into the guy - he is dead," he said.

Passengers were evacuated from the Northern Line station in south London. The incident followed four attempted bombings in the capital on Thursday.

Police have cordoned off a 200-metre area around Stockwell station.

Services on the Victoria and Northern lines were suspended following a request by the police.

Ambulances, including an air ambulance, have been sent to the scene at Stockwell.

[John Simkin]

Breaking news on BBC: A suspected suicide bomber has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell station in South London.

It should be pointed out that he was only a suspected bomber. Eyewitnesses say plain clothed police fired bullets into him when he was unarmed and lying on the ground.

[Adam Wilkinson]

Further breaking news in Australia suggests the suspected bomber did not have any explosives on him at the time he was shot, only heavy clothing, although he was wanted in relation to yesterdays attempted bombings. I believe that the officers should not have shot a man five times, when he was obviously lying on the ground, unarmed, and disagree with the 'shoot to kill' policy.

[John Simkin]

Further breaking news in Australia suggests the suspected bomber did not have any explosives on him at the time he was shot, only heavy clothing, although he was wanted in relation to yesterdays attempted bombings. I believe that the officers should not have shot a man five times, when he was obviously lying on the ground, unarmed, and disagree with the 'shoot to kill' policy.

It is clear that the man was assassinated. Police were sitting on him when they fired five bullets into him. I would have thought it would have been better to have interviewed him first before killing him. Not only might he have been innocent, he might have had a lot to tell them about the bombers.

[Christopher T. George]

Further breaking news in Australia suggests the suspected bomber did not have any explosives on him at the time he was shot, only heavy clothing, although he was wanted in relation to yesterdays attempted bombings. I believe that the officers should not have shot a man five times, when he was obviously lying on the ground, unarmed, and disagree with the 'shoot to kill' policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is clear that the man was assassinated. Police were sitting on him when they fired five bullets into him. I would have thought it would have been better to have interviewed him first before killing him. Not only might he have been innocent, he might have had a lot to tell them about the bombers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi John

Why was the man running, vaulting a turnstile, if he was not a "person of interest" in the case. For all the police knew, he might have been about to detonate a bomb. I would say, the police have to use their own judgement in protecting the public.

Considering that the fellows were apparently making the explosives in their bathtub(s) using fertilizer, it does appear they are not the most sophisticated crew. It could be either that yesterday's bombs were either not properly primed, or else as I believe I heard one expert say, the bomb mixture might have deteriorated with time. Still, worrying times in Britain right now!!!

I sent an e-mail to MSNBC last night. I travel every day through Washington D.C.'s Union Station and on the D.C. Metro but I see no evidence that bomb-sniffing dogs are being used as they are, I understand, on the transit system in London. The railway tickets of people boarding trains were checked for two days only after the July 7 London bombings but not since. Civil liberties people are protesting a plan in New York to randomly search commuters baggage. That would seem to me to be a small price to pay for any law-abiding citizen.

Chris

[Guest]

Hi John

Why was the man running, vaulting a turnstile, if he was not a "person of interest" in the case.  For all the police knew, he might have been about to detonate a bomb.

Similarly he might have been dodging his fare.

[Adam Wilkinson]

All good points, I do believe that they have to make their own judgements, but putting five bullets into a 'suspected' bomber, while he was on the ground is a bit much, even with the problems with terrorism we are facing in the present day. I think it is highly possible that he was a terrorist, the police must have had some reason to go after him and kill him, even with the hightened alert at present, I do not believe they would kill a suspect without reasonable suspicion.

[Christopher T. George]

All good points, I do believe that they have to make their own judgements, but putting five bullets into a 'suspected' bomber, while he was on the ground is a bit much, even with the problems with terrorism we are facing in the present day. I think it is highly possible that he was a terrorist, the police must have had some reason to go after him and kill him, even with the hightened alert at present, I do not believe they would kill a suspect without reasonable suspicion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Adam et al.

Crass as it sounds, I suppose part of the purpose was "to send a message" that the police can be as ruthless as their opponents.

Ex-Flying Squad officer John O'Connor had this to say about how the terror group operated and how they should be deal with: "They are utterly ruthless people and have to be dealt with in a ruthless way." "Massive Undercover Hunt" (Sky News, July 22, 2005)

Something else does occur to me, i.e., that the bombers might have set this up for this man to be killed in this manner, I mean they intentionally sent him without a bomb (if that is the case) but with a big coat to make it seem he had an explosive to provoke the police to kill him, to send a message to their own audience as another reason to join the movement. In other words, it could have been a set-up to make a martyr for the movement, a man seemingly unjustly killed, to make more converts.

Chris

Edited July 23, 2005 by Christopher T. George

[Adam Wilkinson]

good point Chris, I believe that could also be possible. There has now been another terror attack in Egypt.

At least 62 people have been killed and scores more wounded in a string of bomb attacks in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm al-Sheikh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4709491.stm

Edited July 23, 2005 by Adam Wilkinson

[Graham Davies]

Chris writes:

Crass as it sounds, I suppose part of the purpose was "to send a message" that the police can be as ruthless as their opponents.

You may have a point, Chris. On the other hand the police may just be getting nervous and/or trigger-happy in the current climate of heightened tension – which happened at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland. Ruthless retaliation is not pleasant, and it can, as Chris points out, have the opposite of the desired effect, i.e. creating a scenario for more martyrs to join the cause. On the other hand – and drawing another parallel with Northern Ireland – it has been argued that the ruthless retaliation of the Protestant paramilitaries following the Shankill Road bomb in 1993 expedited the peace process. Pressure from the communities on both sides of the divide was very evident at the time. With one voice they were saying “Enough is enough”. The difference now, regarding the London bombs, is that there doesn’t appear to be an opening for any kind of peace process.

I think we are in for a long struggle, which will inevitably lead to Asians in Britain being regarded with suspicion by police and public alike, just as anyone with an Irish accent was regarded with suspicion during the 1970s and 1980s. My wife, who has a marked Belfast accent, can relate a number of unpleasant experiences that she had at the time.