LHO in NYC

[Greg Parker]

edit

Edited November 18, 2012 by Greg Parker

[John Dolva]

I hope this fits in peripherally. A curious coincidence is Trotsky himself.

For some reason, the Bronx was the place he choose to come to after expulsion from the USSR, and where he wrote his (IMO monumental) 'History of the Russian Revolution'. It would be reasonable to think that there would be a concentration of radical scholars here that in some way add to the local 'color'.

Lee was there not long after Trotsky had been assassinated in Mexico. There are perhaps elements contributing to Lees development to be considered.

Edited July 11, 2006 by John Dolva

[Jack White]

I emailed your posting to John Armstrong. Here is his reply:

QUOTE

Jack,

It always amazes me as to how people can so easily draw incorrect conclusions by selectively choosing only those facts that serve their purpose.

Does this fellow realize that a student cannot possibly attend 174 days of school while at the same time be sent to the Youth House for truancy??

Does this fellow know that I brought Dr. Kurian to Dallas where he spoke before the audeince, answered questions, and met afterward with many

conference attendees? Does he know that Dr. Kurian was past president of the American Phychiatric Association? Does he know that Dr. Kurian

wrote a letter to Jackie Kennedy, shortly after the assassination, about his interview with Oswald in 1953 (located in the National Archives)? If this

fellow chooses not to believe Dr. Kurian, and his observations and comments about LHO, then I am sure there are many other people who he will

also choose not to believe.

Does this fellow know that John Pic told the Warren Commission that a photo shown to him (Bronx Zoo photo), allegedly of LHO, was not his

brother?? Does this fellow know that i showed this same photo to several of LHO's former classmates who knew him in the 5th and 6th grades in

Ft. Worth and that every person said this was not the LHO they had known a few months earlier in Ridglea West Elementary School??

If the NY school records are correct, and Oswald's height was 5'4", then who was the Lee Harvey Oswald who appeared in Myra Darouse's

homeroom in New Orleans a few months later who was 4'9" or 4'10"?? Is Myra's memory of Oswald, who she saw every day in her homeroom

class, also incorrect??

The Warren Commission has shown, by selectively choosing witness and testimony, they can demonstrate that LHO assassinated President Kennedy.

Need I say more.....

John

[Greg Parker]

I emailed your posting to John Armstrong. Here is his reply:

QUOTE

Jack,

It always amazes me as to how people can so easily draw incorrect conclusions by selectively choosing only those facts that serve their purpose.

JW & JA

This from the person who uses Hartogs' description of Oswald as looking like a Nazi concentration camp victim and completely ignores the description the same person made in his psych report which is completely opposite to that?

Hartogs, you might recall, is the same person who remembered for the commission that Oswald exhibited traits of "dangerous", though (again) his report (as the commission pointed out to him) said nothing of the sort.

Does this fellow realize that a student cannot possibly attend 174 days of school while at the same time be sent to the Youth House for truancy??

JA

Yes, he does realise that. Does Mr Armstrong realise that 174 school days is the total number of school days in a calendar year in US?

It took me two seconds to find that out. See the first 5 on the google list:

2005-06 school calendars.xls

Summit School District RE-1

Commentary - District Overview

2006-2007 School Calendar Holidays, Vacations, and Workshops

CALENDAR OF EVENTS 2006 – 2007

A quick google also revealed that the "174 days attendance" Mr Armstrong is referring to is allegedly for PS 44. Oswald commenced at that school in January of 1953, so he would, had he stayed all year and had 100% attendance record, have achieved this 174 days figure.

I have looked at CE 1384, (which contains the NYC school records) but am unable to read them clearly from History Matters.

I doubt however, that the record for PS 44 actually says he attended every single day of 174 available days. Either Mr Armstrong has misread the document, or has relied on some FBI report or other made by someone who misread it. I would think the actual report shows for example 75/174 which would indicate either he attended 75 days out of 174 or missed 75 days out of 174. Whatever the case, someone has zeroed in the 174 days and misunderstood its real meaning.

Does this fellow know that I brought Dr. Kurian to Dallas where he spoke before the audeince, answered questions, and met afterward with many conference attendees? Does he know that Dr. Kurian was past president of the American Phychiatric Association? Does he know that Dr. Kurian wrote a letter to Jackie Kennedy, shortly after the assassination, about his interview with Oswald in 1953 (located in the National Archives)? If this fellow chooses not to believe Dr. Kurian, and his observations and comments about LHO, then I am sure there are many other people who he will also choose not to believe.

JA

I would dearly love to believe Dr Kurian as it would fit with MY theory of what was going on with LHO in NYC. However, my understanding is that he claimed he remembered Lee because it was his last day on the job. But if this was in April 1953, then he was remembering some other Oswald (and I'm not talking about the mythical "Harvey"). The records clearly show that LHO was not ordered to attend the court clinic until Nov, 1953. Carro explained why: It was ALWAYS a last resort. IF LHO attended at all, it had to be after the court made that order and prior to leaving NY. If Kurian was no longer working in the court clinic by Nov... well, I'm sure you see the problem.

Did anyone ask Kurian why he never came forward back when? Did anyone ask what hapned to any psych reports on LHO he authored? Did anyone ask why he chose to write to Jackie instead of the WC, the FBI, or the Justice Dept - all far more appropriate people to notify with potentially vital information in the biggest case of the century than the still grieving widow?

Did Dr Kurian explain whether he BELIEVED that Oswald's "brother" actually did attend classes for him? Mr Arstrong obviously believes it, as he has indicated it could not have been John Pic or Robert, so it must have been the Lee subbing for "Harvey". Can Mr Armstrong explain how the almost 12 inch taller Lee was able to pull this deception off without being immediately spotted as the wrong kid? Actually that begs the question as to why the CIA would choose two kids with such a huge height difference for a future mission involving switching identities in the first place...

Does this fellow know that John Pic told the Warren Commission that a photo shown to him (Bronx Zoo photo), allegedly of LHO, was not hisbrother?? Does this fellow know that i showed this same photo to several of LHO's former classmates who knew him in the 5th and 6th grades in Ft. Worth and that every person said this was not the LHO they had known a few months earlier in Ridglea West Elementary School??

JA

That's a slight, but telling, misrepresentation of what Pic actually said, which was "Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald." Not quite the same as saying it was not him.

As I wasn't privvy to any discussions Mr Armstrong had with former classmates, I can't comment on them. I do know that the commission was able to elicit the responses it wanted by asking leading questions.

If the NY school records are correct, and Oswald's height was 5'4", then who was the Lee Harvey Oswald who appeared in Myra Darouse's homeroom in New Orleans a few months later who was 4'9" or 4'10"?? Is Myra's memory of Oswald, who she saw every day in her homeroom class, also incorrect??

JA

Looks likely judging by the rest of this.

The Warren Commission has shown, by selectively choosing witness and testimony, they can demonstrate that LHO assassinated President Kennedy.

Need I say more.....

JA

Yes. Start by explaining why you selectively chose quotes from Hartogs and ignored his contemporaneous report which completely and utterly refutes his latter "memories", and how you so completely misread the NY school records, not the least being in misunderstanding the real meaning of "174 school days".

[Jack White]

I am baffled by your claim that LHO attened NY schools for 174 days WITHOUT ABSENCE.

The reason he was being sent to psychiatrists was persistent TRUANCY.

Your theory MAKES NO SENSE.

Jack

[Greg Parker]

I am baffled by your claim that LHO attened NY schools for 174 days WITHOUT ABSENCE.

The reason he was being sent to psychiatrists was persistent TRUANCY.

Your theory MAKES NO SENSE.

Jack

Jack, that's not what I said.

It was Mr Armstrong's claim that "Lee Oswald's 174 days of attendance at Public School #44 is recorded on these Warren Commission and FBI exhibits."

What I was saying was that he (or perhaps the FBI) misunderstood the school records. This has to be the case as 174 days is the full school year - the maximum number of days one can attend. And then only by starting on the first day of the first term, and going through to the last day of the last term.

Are you saying that Armstrong believes that the records indicate Oswald attended every single day of every term without missing even one single day? Isn't it more likely the records merely show that he attended x number of days out of 174 and Armstrong (or the FBI) latched onto, and completely misunderstood the mention of 174 days?

As I said, I can't read what the school records show from CE 1384 from History Matters. The writing is too small. But I for one, would be astonished if those records do in fact indicate 100% attendance (ie 174 days) at PS 44.

I hope that's clearer for you.

[Jack White]

I am baffled by your claim that LHO attened NY schools for 174 days WITHOUT ABSENCE.

The reason he was being sent to psychiatrists was persistent TRUANCY.

Your theory MAKES NO SENSE.

Jack

Jack, that's not what I said.

It was Mr Armstrong's claim that "Lee Oswald's 174 days of attendance at Public School #44 is recorded on these Warren Commission and FBI exhibits."

What I was saying was that he (or perhaps the FBI) misunderstood the school records. This has to be the case as 174 days is the full school year - the maximum number of days one can attend. And then only by starting on the first day of the first term, and going through to the last day of the last term.

Are you saying that Armstrong believes that the records indicate Oswald attended every single day of every term without missing even one single day? Isn't it more likely the records merely show that he attended x number of days out of 174 and Armstrong (or the FBI) latched onto, and completely misunderstood the mention of 174 days?

As I said, I can't read what the school records show from CE 1384 from History Matters. The writing is too small. But I for one, would be astonished if those records do in fact indicate 100% attendance (ie 174 days) at PS 44.

I hope that's clearer for you.

It is clear to me that you likely have not read HARVEY & LEE.

All the documents you cannot find are on the CD.

Jack

[Greg Parker]

It is clear to me that you likely have not read HARVEY & LEE.

All the documents you cannot find are on the CD.

Jack

And the relevance to whether or not those documents actually say what Mr Armstrong claims they said is what exactly?

Here again is what Mr Armstrong said in 1999 "Lee Oswald's 174 days of attendance at Public School #44 is recorded on these Warren Commission and FBI exhibits."

And again, I'll try and explain... 174 days represents a full school year - not Lee's actual attendance record.

I am heartened to see though that you are no longer trying to defend the use of Hartogs later hogwash and the complete ommision of what the good doctor said in his contemporaneous report. Likewise the impossibility of Dr Kurian having interviewed Lee several months prior to the court order which would have facilitated that - leaving the only alternative - equally impossible because by then he was no longer working with the court clinic - that he interviewed him after the court issued the order.

How does a psychiatist, by the way, justify writing to a grieving widow that he gave psychiatric help to the alleged killer of her husband, instead of passing that info on to relevant authorities? Did he think, in his professional opinion, this would help her get through the grieving process? Did he think, in his professional opinion, that he could be of no assistance to the authorities?

And what did happen to that damn psych report he would have written on Lee again? Just kurious.

[Jack White]

"I am heartened to see though that you are no longer trying to defend the use of Hartogs later hogwash and the complete ommision of what the good doctor said in his contemporaneous report."

I have no idea what you refer to. You have confused me with somebody else.

Get your info correct.

Jack

[Chuck Robbins]

And again, I'll try and explain... 174 days represents a full school year - not Lee's actual attendance record.

I think you might be catching on.

This can not be LHO's school record.

This is exactly what Mr. Armstrong has been saying all along.

When you take the time to actually speak with the persons involved I might be inclined to accept your assessment that their memory is faulty.

We are merely armchair quarterbacks.

The plays we call are easy....thanks to the efforts of those who bring the information to us in the first place.

Chuck

[Chuck Robbins]

I emailed your posting to John Armstrong. Here is his reply:

QUOTE

Jack,

It always amazes me as to how people can so easily draw incorrect conclusions by selectively choosing only those facts that serve their purpose.

JW & JA

This from the person who uses Hartogs' description of Oswald as looking like a Nazi concentration camp victim and completely ignores the description the same person made in his psych report which is completely opposite to that?

Hartogs, you might recall, is the same person who remembered for the commission that Oswald exhibited traits of "dangerous", though (again) his report (as the commission pointed out to him) said nothing of the sort.

Does this fellow realize that a student cannot possibly attend 174 days of school while at the same time be sent to the Youth House for truancy??

JA

Yes, he does realise that. Does Mr Armstrong realise that 174 school days is the total number of school days in a calendar year in US?

It took me two seconds to find that out. See the first 5 on the google list:

2005-06 school calendars.xls

Summit School District RE-1

Commentary - District Overview

2006-2007 School Calendar Holidays, Vacations, and Workshops

CALENDAR OF EVENTS 2006 – 2007

A quick google also revealed that the "174 days attendance" Mr Armstrong is referring to is allegedly for PS 44. Oswald commenced at that school in January of 1953, so he would, had he stayed all year and had 100% attendance record, have achieved this 174 days figure.

I have looked at CE 1384, (which contains the NYC school records) but am unable to read them clearly from History Matters.

I doubt however, that the record for PS 44 actually says he attended every single day of 174 available days. Either Mr Armstrong has misread the document, or has relied on some FBI report or other made by someone who misread it. I would think the actual report shows for example 75/174 which would indicate either he attended 75 days out of 174 or missed 75 days out of 174. Whatever the case, someone has zeroed in the 174 days and misunderstood its real meaning.

Does this fellow know that I brought Dr. Kurian to Dallas where he spoke before the audeince, answered questions, and met afterward with many conference attendees? Does he know that Dr. Kurian was past president of the American Phychiatric Association? Does he know that Dr. Kurian wrote a letter to Jackie Kennedy, shortly after the assassination, about his interview with Oswald in 1953 (located in the National Archives)? If this fellow chooses not to believe Dr. Kurian, and his observations and comments about LHO, then I am sure there are many other people who he will also choose not to believe.

JA

I would dearly love to believe Dr Kurian as it would fit with MY theory of what was going on with LHO in NYC. However, my understanding is that he claimed he remembered Lee because it was his last day on the job. But if this was in April 1953, then he was remembering some other Oswald (and I'm not talking about the mythical "Harvey"). The records clearly show that LHO was not ordered to attend the court clinic until Nov, 1953. Carro explained why: It was ALWAYS a last resort. IF LHO attended at all, it had to be after the court made that order and prior to leaving NY. If Kurian was no longer working in the court clinic by Nov... well, I'm sure you see the problem.

Did anyone ask Kurian why he never came forward back when? Did anyone ask what hapned to any psych reports on LHO he authored? Did anyone ask why he chose to write to Jackie instead of the WC, the FBI, or the Justice Dept - all far more appropriate people to notify with potentially vital information in the biggest case of the century than the still grieving widow?

Did Dr Kurian explain whether he BELIEVED that Oswald's "brother" actually did attend classes for him? Mr Arstrong obviously believes it, as he has indicated it could not have been John Pic or Robert, so it must have been the Lee subbing for "Harvey". Can Mr Armstrong explain how the almost 12 inch taller Lee was able to pull this deception off without being immediately spotted as the wrong kid? Actually that begs the question as to why the CIA would choose two kids with such a huge height difference for a future mission involving switching identities in the first place...

Does this fellow know that John Pic told the Warren Commission that a photo shown to him (Bronx Zoo photo), allegedly of LHO, was not hisbrother?? Does this fellow know that i showed this same photo to several of LHO's former classmates who knew him in the 5th and 6th grades in Ft. Worth and that every person said this was not the LHO they had known a few months earlier in Ridglea West Elementary School??

JA

That's a slight, but telling, misrepresentation of what Pic actually said, which was "Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald." Not quite the same as saying it was not him.

From Chuck-in quotes

"Here is the rest of that exchange which makes it pretty clear that Pic believes that the guy in the photo is not his brother. If you do not recognize your brother.. doesn't it generally mean that person is not your brother?"

Mr. JENNER. Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?

Mr. PIC. Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

--WC Vol. 11, p. 65

As I wasn't privvy to any discussions Mr Armstrong had with former classmates, I can't comment on them. I do know that the commission was able to elicit the responses it wanted by asking leading questions.

If the NY school records are correct, and Oswald's height was 5'4", then who was the Lee Harvey Oswald who appeared in Myra Darouse's homeroom in New Orleans a few months later who was 4'9" or 4'10"?? Is Myra's memory of Oswald, who she saw every day in her homeroom class, also incorrect??

JA

Looks likely judging by the rest of this.

The Warren Commission has shown, by selectively choosing witness and testimony, they can demonstrate that LHO assassinated President Kennedy.

Need I say more.....

JA

Yes. Start by explaining why you selectively chose quotes from Hartogs and ignored his contemporaneous report which completely and utterly refutes his latter "memories", and how you so completely misread the NY school records, not the least being in misunderstanding the real meaning of "174 school days".

[Greg Parker]

From Chuck-in quotes

"Here is the rest of that exchange which makes it pretty clear that Pic believes that the guy in the photo is not his brother. If you do not recognize your brother.. doesn't it generally mean that person is not your brother?"

If you don't recognise your brother from a photo taken over ten years ago when you had only spent a week or two with him in the past 14 or 15 years... no, I wouldn't consider it means that. I have two brothers, and there is a photo of one taken years ago which I have a hard time reconciling with my memory of how he looked then.

"I am heartened to see though that you are no longer trying to defend the use of Hartogs later hogwash and the complete ommision of what the good doctor said in his contemporaneous report."

I have no idea what you refer to. You have confused me with somebody else.

Get your info correct.

Jack

Sorry Jack. I have obviously mistaken you for someone who has in the past, defended Mr Armstrong's theory and the alleged evidence which underpins it.

[Greg Parker]

And again, I'll try and explain... 174 days represents a full school year - not Lee's actual attendance record.

I think you might be catching on.

This can not be LHO's school record.

This is exactly what Mr. Armstrong has been saying all along.

Chuck, I had been unable to read those records clearly from the History Matters website. I have now captured them and increased the sizem making them at least mostly legible.

Let me remind you yet again of Mr Armstrong's claim:

Lee Oswald's 174 days of attendance at Public School #44 is recorded on these Warren Commission and FBI exhibits

I cannot find any reference in any of PS 44 records to that. What I did find was 15 days absence in class 7.8 and 3 days absence while in class (looks like?) 9.8. LHO was in Youth House from 4/16/53 to 5/7/53 which seems to fit nicely with the 15 days absence.

Look at it yourself. CE 1384, Vol 22, p699.

When you take the time to actually speak with the persons involved I might be inclined to accept your assessment that their memory is faulty.

Yes, I could interview some people who went to school with Oswald, the surgeon who did his mastoidectomy, and his NY neighbour's dog named Sam... and maybe that even has it's place. What I have done however, is interview people who knew Oswald and others who knew Ruby during '63...and tracked down witnesses for other people interested in interviewing them, including some no one knew about, or that couldn't previously be located.

We are merely armchair quarterbacks.

The plays we call are easy....thanks to the efforts of those who bring the information to us in the first place.

I wouldn't want you to take my word (or anyone's) for anything. What I would want you to at least consider doing is take some notice of the records. I'm using the same ones Mr Armstrong is. They do not say what he claims they say.

Recap:

He was wrong in claiming what the records show about PS 44.

He was wrong about Dr Kurian, as the records show he could not possibly have interviewed LHO if he left the job when he claims to have.

He selectively used quotes from Hartogs (I'm guessing those came from Hartogs' book), ignoring his most valuable statements from an evidenciary point of view - the psych report.

He incorrectly claimed that WC said that Oswald did not attend junior high.

Chuck

Edited July 12, 2006 by Greg Parker

[Jack White]

Forgive John for his impatience with someone who has not studied

every shred of evidence for 12 years. John did. I suggest you

study LHO for 12 years and then get back to us with INFORMED

findings...not opinions.

Here is John's latest (and last) comment on this posting:

QUOTE:

Jack,

This poor fellow is so confused about the facts that I actually feel sorry for him. For example, he says that LHO was ordered to the court clinic in

November, 1953. Does he understand that LHO was remanded to the Youth House in May, 1953 and it was there that he was interviewed by

psychologists and psychiatrists?? These reports were published in the Warren Volumes in 1964 and there are many, many additional reports

concerning the Youth House in the National Archives.

I spoke personally to John Pic and asked him about the Bronx Zoo photo. I spent many hours with Myra, several students who knew LHO in New

Orleans, people who worked with him (including his supervisor and store owner) in New Orleans (circa 1955), Dr. Kurian, and a host of other people.

I questioned each and every one of these people about the height of the person they knew. Now, has this gentlemen spoken to even one living person

who knew LHO at age 12-16 ?? Has he even tried ?

Seems this gentlemen is content to rely upon testimony, but not documents, found in the Warren Volumes. I wish him a lot of luck trying to uncover

the truth, but I would appreciate your not bothering me with any more of his e-mails.

John

[Greg Parker]

Forgive John for his impatience with someone who has not studied

every shred of evidence for 12 years. John did. I suggest you

study LHO for 12 years and then get back to us with INFORMED

findings...not opinions.

Jack, since when is quantity more important than quality? As for opinions... that is what Mr Armstrong relies upon... his opinion that people have infallible memories. I have shown from the records where and why he is wrong.

Here is John's latest (and last) comment on this posting:

QUOTE:

Jack,

This poor fellow is so confused about the facts that I actually feel sorry for him. For example, he says that LHO was ordered to the court clinic in

November, 1953.

Yes. That is what the record shows. FRom John Carro's report:

11/19/53 Court Action: His Honor talked to the mother at some length and advised her that it would be in the best interest of Lee to have her cooperate with any plans that the court might have to offer at this time. Judge Sicher instructed PO to refer the boy to the court treatment clinic and to makev a reference to the Protestant Big Brothers. Case was paroled to 1/25/54 for a report on that date.

Carro Report

Does he understand that LHO was remanded to the Youth House in May, 1953 and it was there that he was interviewed by psychologists and psychiatrists?? These reports were published in the Warren Volumes in 1964 and there are many, many additional reports concerning the Youth House in the National Archives.

Actually, he was remanded in April '53, and yes, I understand that he was interviewed by various health professionals whilst there.

It seems that it is Mr Armstrong who is confused. The Court Clinic was not part of Youth House as Carro made clear in his testimony whilst also making the point that the court clinic was a last resort:

Mr. LIEBELER - You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth House, is it not?

Mr. CARRO - Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22nd Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist

It was Dr Hartogs' recommendation on 1/5/53 that he be referred to a "child guidance clinic". The courts so ordered, but after months of trying to find a placement with various religious and community organisations, the court finally gave up on that and ordered, in November, as a last resort, he be referred to the court clinic.

Is Mr Armstrong accusing Carro of being part of some cover-up?

I spoke personally to John Pic and asked him about the Bronx Zoo photo. I spent many hours with Myra, several students who knew LHO in New Orleans, people who worked with him (including his supervisor and store owner) in New Orleans (circa 1955), Dr. Kurian, and a host of other people.

Unfortunately, repetition seems necessary. If Dr Kurian left his position in April of '53, then he could not have interviewed LHO (or anyone posing as LHO) since LHO was not referred to the court clinic until Nov '53.

I questioned each and every one of these people about the height of the person they knew. Now, has this gentlemen spoken to even one living person who knew LHO at age 12-16 ?? Has he even tried ?

Nope. You got me there. Guilty as charged.

Seems this gentlemen is content to rely upon testimony, but not documents, found in the Warren Volumes. I wish him a lot of luck trying to uncover the truth, but I would appreciate your not bothering me with any more of his e-mails.

I have relied upon sworn testimony (as opposed to the unsworn statements Mr Armstrong relies so heavily upon and records from the Warren Commission. Mr Armstrong has misrepresented what those documents indicate.

Here, for example, is the report from PS 44 showing the 15 days absence which seems to cover time in YH:

CE 1384 showing absences from PS 44

As I said in my original post, Mr Armstrong's theories are faith-based, not fact-based --- on his part by virtue of faith in the infallibility of memory, as demonstrated amply in his missives here where there is repeated reference to the number of interviews conducted, and false accusations against me for ignoring the written records - records both he and Jack have assiduously avoided discussing.

I know where the pity should be directed, Mr Armstrong...

John