A Few Questions for Fetzer about Ozzie and Lovelady

[Len Colby]

Lovelady said he was in front of the TSBD at the time JFK passed by. Several of his coworkers said he was as well. Were they all lying? If not where is he in the images? If they were lying where was he? And why haven't any witnesses turned up who said they saw him somewhere else? Why would they all have lied?

By contrast no one said LHO was there, not even even Oswald himself. Rather he said he was in the lunch room where he was seen moments after the shooting by a couple of witnesses. If LHO had been in front of the building why did he place himself closer to sniper's nest? Why would some go to the lunch room if they had just seen the President getting shot?

And please don't try to derail this thread with talk of chins and shirt patterns etc.

[David Lifton]

Lovelady said he was in front of the TSBD at the time JFK passed by. Several of his coworkers said he was as well. Were they all lying? If not where is he in the images? If they were lying where was he? And why haven't any witnesses turned up who said they saw him somewhere else? Why would they all have lied?

By contrast no one said LHO was there, not even even Oswald himself. Rather he said he was in the lunch room where he was seen moments after the shooting by a couple of witnesses. If LHO had been in front of the building why did he place himself closer to sniper's nest? Why would some go to the lunch room if they had just seen the President getting shot?

And please don't try to derail this thread with talk of chins and shirt patterns etc.

Well stated. Lovelady said he was there, and there is strong--if not massive--corroboration from his coworkers. Anyone wishing to pursue the record can see that. This case could be taught in history courses and graduate seminars on public communication to understand how NOT to analyze evidence properly; how urban legend can attempt to swamp out the truth and how demagoguery works.

DSL

[Guest Robert Morrow]

I believe the odds are almost 100% it is Billy Lovelady in the doorway of the TSBD and not Oswald.

Len Colby makes an excellent point to start this thread.

I also think the picture looks like Lovelady and not Oswald.

Just my opinions.

[David Von Pein]

Another common-sense reason to know that Lee Oswald is not Doorway Man (besides the fact that Billy Lovelady verified that he, himself, was Doorway Man in Commission Exhibit No. 369) is that we'd have to swallow the following preposterous notion if Oswald really was standing in front of the TSBD in the Altgens photo:

Oswald was watching the motorcade from the steps of the Depository Building....he sees JFK get shot....he sees all the commotion that follows....and then what does he decide to do IMMEDIATELY after seeing this catastrophic event take place right before his very eyes? He decides he wants to go inside the building and get himself a Coca-Cola from the second-floor lunchroom.

And the above scenario would have been unfolding involving a man (Oswald) who certainly was involved in some way in the plot to murder the President. And even most hardline conspiracy theorists will admit to Oswald having been knowingly "involved" in at least some peripheral way in the assassination plot on 11/22/63.

Which would mean (when factoring in my last paragraph) that Oswald, if he was Doorway Man, incredibly, still had that desire to walk back inside the TSBD Building and buy that Coke from the second-floor vending machine immediately after watching the President get killed -- vs. getting the heck out of Dodge and high-tailing it away from the scene of an assassination that he, himself, helped orchestrate.

Anybody here think that tall tale would sway any of the jurors at Mr. Oswald's murder trial?

Footnote #1 --- Yes, it's true that Buell Wesley Frazier did something almost as unbelievable and incredible very shortly after watching JFK get killed from the TSBD steps, with Frazier going back into the building and down to the basement (no less) to eat his lunch. But the key difference between Frazier's actions and Oswald's (via the scenario laid out above) would be: Buell Frazier wasn't a conspirator and had no reason to want to flee the murder scene after JFK was killed.

Footnote #2 --- Of course, the mere fact that Oswald was anywhere near the scene of the assassination if he really wasn't the triggerman is a preposterous thing to believe as well (via the widely-accepted scenario of Oswald being "involved" in some way in the assassination plot beforehand, but not as a gunman). But, quite obviously, many many CTers do believe that Oswald was "involved" in the plot but not as a gunman, but he still (for some unknown reason) needed to be right there at the scene of the murder anyway--even though he really did NOTHING at all to help out his co-conspirators at 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63.

David Von Pein

May 2012

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/01/doorway-man.html

Edited March 5, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Greg Burnham]

Lovelady said he was in front of the TSBD at the time JFK passed by. Several of his coworkers said he was as well. Were they all lying? If not where is he in the images? If they were lying where was he? And why haven't any witnesses turned up who said they saw him somewhere else? Why would they all have lied?

By contrast no one said LHO was there, not even even Oswald himself. Rather he said he was in the lunch room where he was seen moments after the shooting by a couple of witnesses. If LHO had been in front of the building why did he place himself closer to sniper's nest? Why would some go to the lunch room if they had just seen the President getting shot?

And please don't try to derail this thread with talk of chins and shirt patterns etc.

Fetzer has a habit of relying on Captain Fritz' notes, but only when it suits his predetermined conclusion, aka, Special Pleading.

He will argue that Oswald told Fritz he was out front with Shelly. Although Oswald is not specific as to "when" that was, Fetzer

has argued that it is "obvious" that Fritz must have asked Oswald where he was "at the time of the shooting" and thus LHO must

have meant at the time of Altgens 6. However, relying on those same notes, Oswald said he changed his shirt after going home

after Altgens 6 and before being arrested and photographed. It is here that Fetzer then rejects the reliability of Fritz' notes on the

grounds that: "Not even the Warren Commission believed Oswald changed clothes." Fetzer fails to realize that the WC rejected

that notion for the same reason he himself does: It runs counter to both of their pre-determined conclusions.

[David Von Pein]

The Dallas Police certainly used naming him [buell Wesley Frazier] as a co-conspirator as leverage against him when he was pissing his pants with fright down at City Hall in an interrogation room - just before they hooked him up to a lie detector...

I wonder why Frazier doesn't mention a single word about being hooked up to a lie detector in this 2002 interview with Gary Mack?

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/event/178017

Yes, it's true that Gary didn't ask Wesley this question -- Were you given a lie detector test? And if so, were you pissing your pants with fright as you were being used as leverage by the DPD as they were naming you as a co-conspirator in the President's murder? -- but Gary gave Wesley ample room for telling everything that occurred at City Hall when Frazier was being questioned for many hours on Nov. 22.

In short -- the DPD probably SHOULD have considered Frazier to be a possible co-conspirator of Oswald's. Heck, I would have thought the same thing. After all, Wesley drove the assassin (and the gun) to work on the day Kennedy was killed from his workplace. But he cleared himself of any conspiratorial conduct. Only rabid conspiracy clowns try to implicate 19-year-old Buell Frazier.

Edited March 5, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Randy Gunter]

Having played such a seminal role in this event, I find it hard to believe that "Frazier" can't recall when he started work at the TSBD when questioned by GM. Is he that stupid or just playing possum? At the time of this interview, he had almost 39 years to think about his TSBD employment history.

[David Von Pein]

At the time of this interview, he had almost 39 years to think about his TSBD employment history.

But by the same token, Randy, he also had 39 years for that information to escape his memory. That's a long time.

[Randy Gunter]

DVP, that is very true. He may have killed some brain cells via alcohol consumption, as have many others.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Randy Gunter

[Randy Gunter]

Jim,

That was my thought process. Fraziers hiring date was more important than his birthdate, it was the date when he became a part of history and famous.

Randy

[David Von Pein]

I find it hard to believe that "Frazier" can't recall when he started work at the TSBD when questioned by [Gary Mack].

I guess it's pretty easy to forget the single most important thing which ever happened in your life. Which led to you almost being indicted for the president's murder.

Oh, for Pete sake, why in the world would anyone consider Frazier's HIRING DATE to be the most important and unforgettable date in his life? How silly.

Do you think his hiring date in Sept. '63 was MORE memorable than 11/22/63 itself? And we know that Wesley misremembered a few things relating to 11/22:

1.) He told Gary Mack that the first time he heard the name "Lee Oswald" after the assassination was on the radio BEFORE Oswald was even arrested. (Which is dead wrong and never happened.)

2.) Wesley told Gary he saw Oswald walking on Houston St. about 5-10 minutes after the assassination. (Which is in direct opposition to Frazier's 11/22/63 affidavit, where he plainly states, in his own words, that he never saw Oswald again on November 22 "after about 11:00 AM".)

So why should the date of Wesley's being hired at the TSBD be emblazoned in his memory?

Edited March 12, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Frazier's hiring date was more important than his birthdate. It was the date when he became a part of history and famous.

You think Frazier became famous and a part of history in September of 1963, eh?

That's weird.

[Michael Hogan]

The Dallas Police certainly used naming him [buell Wesley Frazier] as a co-conspirator as leverage against him when he was pissing his pants with fright down at City Hall in an interrogation room - just before they hooked him up to a lie detector...

I wonder why Frazier doesn't mention a single word about being hooked up to a lie detector in this 2002 interview with Gary Mack?

http://www.c-spanvid...rg/event/178017

Yes, it's true that Gary didn't ask Wesley this question -- Were you given a lie detector test? And if so, were you pissing your pants with fright as you were being used as leverage by the DPD as they were naming you as a co-conspirator in the President's murder? -- but Gary gave Wesley ample room for telling everything that occurred at City Hall when Frazier was being questioned for many hours on Nov. 22.

Six years after Gary Mack's interview, Hugh Aynesworth interviewed Buell Frazier. Aynesworth wrote:

Mr. Frazier was questioned vigorously by police – accused of being involved in the plot to kill Kennedy – and even told falsely by police officers that Oswald had named him as a co-conspirator. After 12 intense hours at the Police Department, he was allowed to take a polygraph test, passed it impressively and was released.

The fact that Mr. Frazier helped train Oswald at his new job (Oswald was hired at the book depository Oct. 16) and had driven him to Irving several times soon faded from most people's memories. But another factor remained noteworthy.

Officials assumed that the package Oswald carried to work that morning was the Italian-made rifle he used to kill Kennedy. Mr. Frazier still doesn't believe it.

.........In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Mr. Frazier said the brown paper package Oswald carried that morning was too short to contain a rifle. Oswald cupped the package in his hand, he said, and it fit under his armpit.

In Washington, Mr. Frazier said, he was "pressured" to change his recollection. In the days afterward, he was badgered by the media, harassed by people who didn't understand his relationship to Oswald and even became fearful for his life.

His testimony was important because investigators had proved that Oswald bought the rifle used in the JFK slaying and had found a matching palm print on the stock, but they had no proof that he had it with him that day.

Ms. Randle, who was also a leading witness, said recently that when she and Mr. Frazier testified before the Warren Commission, "they tried to get us to say that package was much longer than we recalled, but that wasn't true."

The commission kept pushing, Mr. Frazier said. Could it be that he was traumatized by the horror of what happened or embarrassed that he hadn't been more observant?

"I know what I saw," he said, "and I've never changed one bit."

....."Conspiracy theories are like noses," he said. "Everybody has one. No one has ever sold me 100 percent that Lee did it. If he did, yes, but some other people were involved in some way."

http://jfkfiles.blog...lent-about.html

[Randy Gunter]

DVP,

Can't people juggle two or more important dates? Of course they can (birthdates, wedding dates, etc).

Military types always remember the first day of bootcamp and the day they left the service.

Frazier couldn't even get the right month, he responded "Some time in the summer of 63".

Later in the interview, Mack applauds him for his great memory and recollection of a "catering company". Very laughable after his failure on the employment date.

RG

[Randy Gunter]

Frazier's hiring date was more important than his birthdate. It was the date when he became a part of history and famous.

You think Frazier became famous and a part of history in September of 1963, eh?

That's weird.

What's weird about it? The guy was destined to be a nobody for eternity until he became LHO's personal chauffeur.