James R Gordon

Sorry Gary, You are right. I thought I was looking at the January chart. I did not see it was a Warner copy. Robert has yet to indicate when this wounding took place. When we know that we know the position of the car and can then plot the position of Connally. Turning Connally 45º to the right has major implications for the source of the shot, and that can only be determined when we know at what point Robert believes Connally was wounded. Actually, I disagree on your conclusion, if the source of the shot is from the TSBD, then by having Connally turned that far to the right and the source the TSBD it could well a milder wound than Connally actually received: the bullet exiting through the shoulder and out the arm. But, of course, there is the rub. Any simulation must simulate the actual wound. And if the thesis is that Connally is turned 45º to his right there is no way a shot sourced from the TSBD could replicate the injuries suffered. James.

Robert, from what I can see on post 1 you did indeed suggest that Charles Gregory placed the wound there on the chart. Your actual words " where Dr. Gregory depicted it to be in the drawing." It was Robert Shaw that both drew and labeled that wound. If you never intended to suggest Gregory drew that wound, then your use of language was ambiguous in post 1. Also when you say it makes no difference. I do not agree. It makes all the difference in the world. Robert Shaw was the authority for the chest wound whereas Charles Gregory was the authority for the wrist wound. Therefore the placing on the back wound in that position has all the authority of the surgeon who treated the wound. James.

David, . If your gif on 224 / 225 is correct then the individual frames should reflect this difference. First between these two frames John Connally has turned to his left - unless you are suggesting the bullet has turned him. Second - and this you can replicate for yourself - the angle of the slope of John Connally's left shoulder at 224 and 225 is exactly the same. Now if the slope is the same - as I have shown it is ( and you can replicate ) - how can it be said it has risen in the film clip whereas the individual frames make clear it has not risen [ James.

David, What you are seeing is a film sequence that has not has not been compensated for camera movement. I agree looking at the sequence it does indeed suggest that Connally's left shoulder is rising. However - and this is important - the individual frames do not show that. Taking the last frame in your sequence there is a large rise in the left shoulder and it is very close to the bottom of Jackies hair. However the individual last frame in your sequence does not show that. Forgetting the contribution that frame sequences make to the observable image - i.e. a film strip and an individual frame is not the same - there is no similarity between the last frame in your sequence and what is suggested by the last frame in your gif. Also note, the area where your gif suggests Connally's left shoulder is rising coincides with the area of Jackie's jacket which happens to be black!!!!! If what your gif suggests is reality then that last frame should also demonstrate this lifting of the left shoulder. James

I accept that the donate button has had a few hiccups. However it now does work and here is the process by which a donation can be made. I am looking into ways to simplify the system, but for the present this system works and is secure. Step 1:- Click on the link which will take you to the donate button. http://educationforu...dex.php?act=idx A member is allowed to donate from $1 to $100. The member enters the sum they want to donate and clicks the button. The Donate Button Step 2:- Having done that you are taken to a form. Basically this is information that Paypal needs for the receipt that you get at the end of the process. The Form to Fill out Step 3:- Yes, this stage may seem something of an inconvenience but it is a verification stage. The program is asking you if the information you entered is correct. In this example I have blocked out my own personal details which is why you see nothing. Confirm Details Step 4:- Having agreed that the information is correct you are taken to the account. Here you can choose to either pay by PayPal or by Credit Card. PayPal Account After you make your donation you are sent a receipt. I accept it may seem a little cumbersome at the moment and I am looking into simplifying the system shortly. But the system does work and it is secure. James. Quote MultiQuote Edit

I accept that the donate button has had a few hiccups. However it now does work and here is the process by which a donation can be made. I am looking into ways to simplify the system, but for the present this system works and is secure. Step 1:- Click on the link which will take you to the donate button. http://educationforu...dex.php?act=idx A member is allowed to donate from $1 to $100. The member enters the sum they want to donate and clicks the button. The Donate Button Step 2:- Having done that you are taken to a form. Basically this is information that Paypal needs for the receipt that you get at the end of the process. The Form to Fill out Step 3:- Yes, this stage may seem something of an inconvenience but it is a verification stage. The program is asking you if the information you entered is correct. In this example I have blocked out my own personal details which is why you see nothing. Confirm Details Step 4:- Having agreed that the information is correct you are taken to the account. Here you can choose to either pay by PayPal or by Credit Card. PayPal Account After you make your donation you are sent a receipt. I accept it may seem a little cumbersome at the moment and I am looking into simplifying the system shortly. But the system does work and it is secure. James. Quote MultiQuote Edit

I accept that the donate button has had a few hiccups. However it now does work and here is the process by which a donation can be made. I am looking into ways to simplify the system, but for the present this system works and is secure. Step 1:- Click on the link which will take you to the donate button. http://educationforu...dex.php?act=idx A member is allowed to donate from $1 to $100. The member enters the sum they want to donate and clicks the button. The Donate Button Step 2:- Having done that you are taken to a form. Basically this is information that Paypal needs for the receipt that you get at the end of the process. The Form to Fill out Step 3:- Yes, this stage may seem something of an inconvenience but it is a verification stage. The program is asking you if the information you entered is correct. In this example I have blocked out my own personal details which is why you see nothing. Confirm Details Step 4:- Having agreed that the information is correct you are taken to the account. Here you can choose to either pay by PayPal or by Credit Card. PayPal Account After you make your donation you are sent a receipt. I accept it may seem a little cumbersome at the moment and I am looking into simplifying the system shortly. But the system does work and it is secure. James. Quote MultiQuote Edit

I accept that the donate button has had a few hiccups. However it now does work and here is the process by which a donation can be made. I am looking into ways to simplify the system, but for the present this system works and is secure. Step 1:- Click on the link which will take you to the donate button. http://educationforu...dex.php?act=idx A member is allowed to donate from $1 to $100. The member enters the sum they want to donate and clicks the button. The Donate Button Step 2:- Having done that you are taken to a form. Basically this is information that Paypal needs for the receipt that you get at the end of the process. The Form to Fill out Step 3:- Yes, this stage may seem something of an inconvenience but it is a verification stage. The program is asking you if the information you entered is correct. In this example I have blocked out my own personal details which is why you see nothing. Confirm Details Step 4:- Having agreed that the information is correct you are taken to the account. Here you can choose to either pay by PayPal or by Credit Card. PayPal Account After you make your donation you are sent a receipt. I accept it may seem a little cumbersome at the moment and I am looking into simplifying the system shortly. But the system does work and it is secure. James. Quote MultiQuote Edit

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Kathy, Ideally the research area ought to be reserved for contributions like a written paper. That may not be always possible. The suggestion, from the member who suggested this, was I believe along those lines. The point being made, as I understand it, is that the research area is not a replication of the present JFK Debate Forum. As you are aware, this may require mediation from the administrators. I understood that these new forums are an addition to what already exists and allows a better streaming of the variety that is at present in the JFK Debate forum. As you suggest we are probably talking of minimum movement and hoping that fellow members will, themselves, begin to disperse topics into the appropriate forums. James

Jon, I understand the point you are making. However to do so would create a very unwieldy Forum. It is not impossible to increase the forum set above five, but the number of forums you suggest would be - I think - too much. James.

Over the last few weeks the administrators have become aware of the weight that the present forum is required to carry. The JFK Assassination Debate forum is clearly the most popular of the forums on offer and it is understandable that all discussion is now fed into it. It is understandable why this has occurred, however we feel the time has come when we really need to tidy up the forum. A fellow member suggested we might think about widening the present forum in order to better focus member posts. We agree and therefore we propose the creation of a new JFK forum category into which this forum and five new forums are placed. The five new forum are:- JFK Research This is a seriously overdue venue for new discussion. This forum is limited to new research and analysis, documents, testimony, oral history, and physical or photographic evidence. Threads would be limited to new findings specifically - and narrowly - related to the JFK assassination. Note the imperative description is “New Research and Analysis, Documents, Testimony, Oral History, and Physical or Photographic evidence.” This forum is not be considered another avenue for the present debate that continues on the JFK Assassination Debate forum. The intent of this forum is allow members to share genuinely new research or access to new documents and other resources. JFK Questions We see this Forum being helpful for newcomers. It will allow them to post questions about resources, previous investigations, evidence and "factoids" which they have found on the internet or in books and which they want to have validated or exposed. JFK Discussion We see this Forum being limited to threads discussing the Kennedy administration, personalities of the era and theories/speculation/opinions pertaining to his assassination. It is becoming apparent that this is a growing interest on the forum and now deserves its own forum. There are number of present threads on the JFK Assassination debate forum that would be ideal for this new forum. JFK Book Discussions This Forum is limited to posts on specific books or specific author Deep Politics We see this Forum being limited to threads discussing broader topics ranging beyond just JFK and can include opinions and dialogs on both historical and contemporary events. The False Flag thread would be an ideal candidate for this area. We feel that these kinds of threads - interesting though they are - need a better home than the present forum. JFK Assassination Debate:- With this kind of reorganisation we see our present forum returning to it’s primary function as the place where a more generalised JFK assassination discussion can take place. Moderation:- For understandable reasons members may innocently choose the wrong forum for their topic. As a consequence, in the early days, the administrators may need to move topics threads into their correct Forum. Hopefully that will not happen too often. But the point about moving topic threads - should that indeed be necessary - is that this forum needs a tidy up and clearer focus on topics. Fellow members opinions:- We would be very interested in what fellow members think about this proposed action. James

Robert, You have missed the point I am making. First - assuming there were only three shots - three groups agree with you. However all three have a different understanding of the sequence. For one group it was three isolated shots. Another it was a single shot followed by a double shot. The third it was a double shot followed by a single. Then there is a fourth group that said there were two sets of two shots. Basically, which I feel may be pertinent to this discussion, it is clear that depending where you were positioned in the plaza determined what you heard. If you were up by Houston street the first shot you heard was a single shot. However if you were down by the triple underpass you did not hear that shot. The first shots those by the triple underpass heard was a double shot. Possible the same double shot those up at Houston street heard after their first shot. One problem is that - if both groups heard the same double shot - then there was a fourth shot. Because those down by the tripple underpass heard a single shot after their double shot. This shot, however, was not heard by those up by Houston street. James

Chris, you make a very good point.Researchers are inclined to describe X number of shots being fired in a particular sequence. However, the variance in the number and sequence of shots was a little more complex than just 1 2 3 1 2 3 As I have posted before the auditory features of Dealey Plaza allowed many versions of how many shots and what their sequence was. East Plaza is up by Houston Street. West Plaza is down by the tripple underpass. Group 3 included around JFK's car. Group 4 is widely dispersed throughout the plaza. There is no universal account. Both groups 1 and 2 heard two shots close to each other. However those down by the underpass heard their single shot after the double whereas those up by Houston street hear the single shot before the double shot. Only group 4 heard two sets of two shots. I would suggest that this variance in how many shots as well as what their sequence complicates matters a little. James

I have found this a very difficult thread. I profoundly disagree with the thesis of this thread. I have found myself emotionally involved in the arguments and that has highlighted, for me, one of the difficulties of being an administrator as well as a member: especially if there certain situations tempt you to want to restrain others. Robert Mady, informing the membership that he was under threat of being banned was one such case. I had informed him twice I had no intention of banning him. I was therefore very angry when I read him say he was stoppping posting because he was under threat of being banned. I put him on moderation for saying so. This has been a learning experience for me. I have found it is much more difficult being an administrator than I had initially thought. I have removed Robert Mady from moderation. James.

Robert, In post 164 you claim the image shows the lead car is almost at the underpass. Elm street is just under 500 feet long. The point you indicate is "almost" at the underpass is actually just over 100 feet from the underpass. James.

Robert, You say"The Willis photo is used to provide a possible location for the shooter and a possible line of fire, the photo was not taken at the instant of the shot, I find it difficult to comprehend that you believed I implied that the photo was taken at Z-189." I never said nor did I imply that. I know very well the difference. I asked were you now suggesting that the throat took place at z 202. Please read carefully what I say and do not put words into my mouth. James

Robert, You say it "is not the Queen Mary it is the location where the yellow VP follow-up car is in Altgens #6." Yet on the image in yellow it clearly says SSA car in Altgens 6. James.

Robert Mady, Your image in post 137 shows you do not understand photography. Your yellow line points to where the Queen Mary was at Z 255. You have it opposite the entrance of the TSBD. The car was never more than around 5 feet behind. You have the Queen Mary where my red rectangle is whereas it should be just behind the blue rectangle for JFK's car. You have totally misunderstood photographic perspective. Maybe you want to gen up on that!!!! James

Robert, Your contention is that the throat wound took place at 187. Willis 7, the image above is equivalent with Z 202. Are you now saying the throat wound took place at Z 202? James.

Yes, Robert, I'll agree to that. That said, and shifting the conversation away from the present thread, that throat wound is a really strange wound. Although I never subscribed to Greg's theory, I do understand his attempt to find a solution. It just makes no sense. It is a strange, strange wound. James.