James R Gordon

Robert,

If Robert Mady believes "a compressed gas weapon being fired from the vicinity of the Grassy Knoll" was responsible for the throat wound - it is just another indicator that he has no idea what he is talking about.

His thesis is that the throat wound occurred at Z 189. However at that point JFK's throat is turned towards his right. Therefore any shot from the grassy knoll may strike JFK, but will not penetrate where the throat wound is, because that is now obscured from the sight from anyone on the grassy knoll.

If that really is his theory then there is another nail in that coffin.

James.

Robert,

You said the following:-

"What is imperative for researches to understand is that they have a misconception of the assassination with which they have endeavored to locate when shot number 1 and shot number 2 occurred using this erroneous conception of the assassination as a foundation, this is why no one in 51 years has made any sense, because whether you use the WC theory or any conspiracy theory they all started with false concept and that is; there were three shots and the last shot occurred at Z-313. "

In making such a comment you are displaying your utter ignorance of modern JFK research. The Warren Commission believed there were only three bullets, very few others ever said that. Nor is it right that every JFK researcher believes the last shot was fired at Z 313. You have either misunderstood modern JFK research or have never read any serious study.

James.

Jon,

Even if you are correct, this idea fails. The images of this area make it clear that only seven people are standing here. There is no image of anyone with a pellet gun.

Second, according to Robert Mady, a rifle was not used. So this weapon has to be excluded.

James.

Robert,

You are now talking nonsense.

You said "None of the seven people near the blue dot fired a weapon."

At Z 189 JFK is looking to his right: he is looking in the direction of these seven people including Mary Woodward.

You also said the "shot at Z-189 inflicted the throat wound."

Therefore, because of the nature of the throat wound, JFK was looking in the direction of the gunman. Yet you say it was not one of these seven people.

There is no one else in the area facing JFK at this point on Elm Street. If it was not one of these seven people then JFK was not injured at Z 189 because there were only these seven people standing there.

Unless you can establish there was another person standing in this location, this theory of your fails.

James

Robert,

Sorry I miss read the extract from Mary's statement.

A 100 feet further down Elm Street places the car around the 313 position.

James.

Robert,

I am going to address one issue. Please restrict yourself to responding to this issue.

You stated that the first shot was fired at Z 189. You further add that it was not a rifle that fired the shot. I assume it was a pistol that fired the shot. Umbrella man - if he is in your thoughts - to too far down the street to be effective. And that is to imply that he is a credible assassin - which he is not.

I assume it is the throat wound that was inflicted at this point - because at this point JFK is turned to his right.

Below is a extract of Don Roberdeau's map. The blue dot is placed at the point you refer to. To the right is an enlargement.

So the question is, which of the seven people that were in this area who do believe is the assassin?

If you answer someone else, well that person had to be very close by - within a few feet. Lets agree this gunman had a silenced weapon.

First this person would have to fire above them. You are not suggesting he fired through them?

Second, the silencer would muffle the sound. Though I would argue it might still be possible to hear the shot. But what is beyond dispute, if you have any understanding of firearms, the pressure of the shot

as it made it way to its target would have been felt. The sound would be muffled, but the shot would not.

The idea that a pistol shot was fired at this point with all these witnesses near by - and not one detected it - is not a rational point.

James.

Chris,

My statement came from Don Roberdeau's map. Going back to that map, Mary was standing slightly beyond the first lamppost - maybe somewhere around 30 feet. That suggest the second lamppost was somewhere near 60 feet from her.

I agree that the mid 230's is the likely moment for the Connally chest wound.

James

Robert

The 100 feet cooment comes from Mary herself. I took that as fact. Actually that statement is now in doubt. From the triple underpass to the west pavement of Houston street is approx 495 feet. Mary is at 197, and JFK can be seen waving to his right. Therefore maybe he was waving at her.

Now the 100 feet statement. That would take the car close to the turn onto Elm. Basically Mary has to be wrong about that. Mary estimated the 100 feet, but Elm street topology makes clear that has to be wrong. I suspect the car was actually closer, though I have no idea much closer.

James.

Robert,

So there were shots fired before 313. I understood your position was that no shots were fired pre 313.

With regard to the Secret Service agents how can you prove that the agents looking in one direction was not security observation rather than reaction to a shot? It may be your opinion, but where is the evidence?

The idea that Jackie was wounded demonstrates a poor grasp of the facts.

James.

Robert P,

I had thought about Mary's point before I saw your post. I will look into that. I estimate he is somewhere near 5 seconds before her.

Since Robert M has fixed himself to a point post 313 he has real problems. First the first shot has to have been before 313, because by 313 he has already suffered a fatal wound.

As I have pointed out, the throat wound is now an impossible wound.

Also, which I suspect Rombert M has never thought of, James Tague is a serious flaw in his theory.

James.

Robert,

You make a post arguing how Mary Woodward's testimony supports your argument. Then you reply and say actually her testimony is not what is important it is the support it gives other evidence. But - and this is what undermines your credibility - if her testimony is not important on its own then it supports nothing.

In addition Mary pointed out that JFK had yet to reach her. She estimates he was somewhere around 100 feet further up Elm Street. That means JFK was approx 5 seconds before her position. Therefore from the moment JFK waved to her it was another 11 seconds before the first shot was fired.

When JFK's arms move towards his neck - as seen at 225 - what is happening?

If you are arguing that JFK was injured post 313, then the throat wound occurred posts 313. The position JFK was in at 312 makes it impossible for anyone - except somewhere in the South Plaza - to make that wound. This is not conjecture. I know Dealey Plaza topology something you may not know. I have some ability in creating Dealey Plaza topology. The position of JFK's face is now turned away from any gunman in the North plaza.

If all wounds impacted on JFK post 313, it is clear that the first shot was fired at 312.5 - the midway point between 312 and 313. By 320 JFK is too close to Jackie and therefore place her in danger. Therefore the shots that wounded JFK were fired within the space of 8 frames: less than .5 of a second.

Then there is James Teague. His testimony, which has never been challenged, makes clear that he was injured well before the head shot. He had moved inside the Tripple Underpass by that time. He is on record saying that he was out of sight before the fatal shot took place. So Teague has been injured and is back in the Underpass tunnel, yet the car has not reached the point he was shot in the head.

There are numerous fatal flaws to your theory. Returning with statements by various witnesses will not answer these points. Zapruder is a factual document that does not support you. The topology of the plaza is a fixed feature that needs to be addressed. James Tague contradicts your position.

James.

Robert,

Mary Woodward was positioned at a point where JFK, when he passed her, was at what represents 197 on Zapruder's film.

I don't question Mary's statement, however how can we accept that she has - recollecting what she saw and heard - accurately measured the time elapse as a few seconds. We have no idea what she meant by that term and how accurate her memory is.

6.5 seconds elapsed between 197 and 313 - let alone beyond 313.

Put simply. Given where Mary Woodward was standing and how much further the car had to travel, there is serious doubt on exactly what is meant by a few seconds.

James.

Robert,

I believe I am responsible for Robert Mady's absence. I hid a third thread he created on this same narrative. I informed what I did and that I understood his present threads discussed his narrative. He informed me he may no longer post on this forum.

Robert is not banned, nor is he on moderation. He is welcome to post here as and when he wishes.

James

Larry,

thanks for posting a link to John Hunt’s essay. I am going to study the in more detail.

It is a fascinating read. Reading how the Clarke Panel - or whoever it was - tried to medically find an answer to the SBT is really interesting. The fact that anyone would seriously consider image 9 or figure 13 just shows the lengths they would go to establish a narrative for the SBT.

The importance of the Suprasternal Notch to establish the position of the throat wound is something I had never considered.

Something definitely happened in the neck area as the image below can be seen. This X-ray was taken prior to the autopsy and not during - as some were. The neck has clearly collapsed to the right. At the time I created the image I suggest that Intervertebral disk C06 C07 had collapsed. I am not quite so sure now, however something was damaged that caused the neck to collapse on its right.

I do not have the answer, but what is clear to me is that something happened in the neck area. Because this X-ray was taken prior to the autopsy, means the damage cannot be ascribed to what Humes did.

Interesting though these images are, what is clear is that basically all that was being attempted was to find an acceptable straight line trajectory. They do not appear to appear to be examining the medical implications of the SBT.

Either way it is an interesting article and a fascinating set of images.

Link to Xray:-

James.

Robert,

I am sure you are right that for a period of time - how long we cannot be sure - the Secret Service were not sure what was going on. After all early reports suggested it was a fire cracker. Altgens - which equates to 255 - makes clear that JFK has clearly been injured by that point. Logic suggests that this injury took place earlier than 255. How much earlier is an issue of debate. That is clearly an issue I would like to see Robert Mady address. If the correct interpretation of Altgens is that JFK is wounded by this point, then clearly the first shot was not at 313.

I agree that back wound is a very strage wound. It clearly is not a through wound yet - as DVP likes to point out - where is the bullet? David Lifton has suggested it was a wound created post assassination. What is clear is that something clearly struck JFK in the back as evidenced by his jacket and shirt. When it happened or what it was is not so clear.

James.

Robert,

You question why if the first shot occurred at 190 why Clint Hill did not move until around 300. Very good point. Especially when in Altgens 6 we see Hill is already focused on JFK.

The problem is that we have facilities, which if present in 1963, would have solved the case. We have the Zapruder film and the ability to separate it into quality frames. I feel that sometimes blinds us to reality. Between 190 and 300 is approximately 5 seconds. From 255 to 300 is around 2.5 seconds. That is little time. At 190 the Queen Mary was further behind than at 300. Even if Hill had moved at 190 I doubt there was sufficient time to reach the car. Even at 300, when the Queen Mary was under 3 ft behind, he did not make it. Then there is Roberts who is understood to have demanded that no one move and I assume Hill was aware of that.

We have between 50 and 100 frames to look at, but - at maximum - Hill had 5 seconds but more likely 2.5. Sometimes it is worth remembering that reality of the situation and what actually could be done as opposed to what we might have wish had been done.

James

Robert,

The Secret Service threat has not been closed again. The thread that John Dolva referred to has been hidden. John raises a good point and it might be a good idea to either make it visible or create a new version. Transparency is important and that thread certainly served that purpose and it is correct and proper that we should explain our decisions.

James.

Robert,

Good luck with your research. I am not prepared to continue discussing this topic.

Robert,

The point Robert Prudhomme makes is valid. In Ike Altgens image a large number of witnesses not only do not hear the first shots some can be seen cheering and clapping the President.

Your position is just because one witness hears shots at a particular point - only he is right and everyone else is wrong. One came as something of a surprise to me was the variety of sounds that the witnesses heard. Josiah Thompson listed all the witnesses, where they were positioned and what shots they heard.

The group by Houston street - referred to as East Plaza - heard a single shot followed by a double shot.

Those down by the Pergola - referred to was West Plaza - heard a double shot followed by a single shot.

There were two groups that were equally dispersed throughout the plaza.

The first group heard three single shots.

The second group heard a double shot followed by another double shot.

Basically, what Josiah pointed out where you were positioned determined what you heard. Aside from the fact that the Cabell's were in a closed car somewhere around the middle of Houston street, how do we know they actually heard the first shot. How can we not say that the shot they heard was not the first shot, but actually the first shot they heard.

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that the when the Cabell's talk about the first shot, they are referring to the first shot they heard and not the first shot.

Where people could claim - as I have on occasion - that John Connally was not wounded until after the head shot your suggestion that the first shot could not have occurred before 313 is complete nonsense and ignores the masses of evidence we already have. Just to name one there is the evidence of Phil Willis as to why image 5 was taken. And that is to ignore what we see in Altgens. And just so many other testimonies.

Your placing of the cars is full of inaccuracies. I refer you to Zapruder full frame with sprockets 148. We have no idea where the Cabell car was at 148. Your placing of the Secret Service car is just beyond belief. Again look at Zapruder full frame + sprockets to see that at most it was around 2 - 3 feet behind. By 312 there is evidence that it was less than 2 feet behind. At 223 you have the Johnson car just turned the corner and with a massive gap between it and the Queen Mary. That was not the case. Again I refer you to the Full frame Zapruder.

I have just looked at your recent posts. Your placing of the Queen Mary at 187 is nonsense. It was much closer. It looks like the Johnson was further round than that. 235 is again nonsense with regard to the Queen Mary and Cabell is sheer speculation. Johnson's car would also have been closer by 235.

As regards the Cabell's suggesting that no shots had taken place until they had turned into Elm Street conflicts with all the evidence we have. You are taking the evidence of one witness and ignoring all the other evidence. The SBT is based on the idea that both JFK and Connally are wounded at 223/4. Now whether you agree with the theory is irrelevant, what is clear is that by 225 JFK is showing clear signals that he has been wounded. Yet you are suggesting that no shots had been fired by that point and it would be 88 frames until the first shot was fired.

The assassination is easy to comprehend once you understand the testimony.

If only that were true.

Chris,

877 says that Main from TUP to Houston street is 425. It does not say which side of Houston street it is referring to. But when I measured on my model from the TUP to the edge of the west pavement I get 425. To measure to the edge of the east pavement is a further 60 ft - the width of Houston street.

Therefore my measurement has always been to the edge of the west pavement. The document is quite specific that the measurement ends at Houston street. Therefore I always include the 10ft of the western pavement on Houston street.

Referring back to the copy of Don's map I used the the measurement from TUP to the Red arrow. That distance should be 495ft - not 595 as stated in a previous post. My error of 100 ft makes a real difference.

Just looking at that copy of Don's map, if the total length is just under 500 ft, then the distance of 136 between these two points now seem logical.

I agree now.

James

Chris,

I understand. However it seems strange that we have two different values for the distance between two specific physical locations. I had understood that the total length of Elm Street was 595 ft. From my understanding of the case no one has disputed the validity of 877. I can confirm every other factual description is right.

So I find it curious that one way of measuring gives one answer while another casts doubt on that value. What makes it more strange is that we are talking about two physical locations that can be easily established.

I respect you have significant skills in this area, but we surely cannot have two answers to the distance between the same two specific points.

James

Sorry Chris,

I was looking at white car. My mistake.

If possible I would love a copy of the complete map. if it is possible to email a copy.

My next problem relates to what you said in post 51 where you said that between 168 and 313 is 136 feet.

According to CE 877 from the triple underpass to the western edge of Houston Street is 595 feet. Just under 600 feet.

Yet you are saying that between the two black arrows is 136 feet. That suggests that the rest of Elm street - that area not included between the arrows - 459 feet.

My instinct suggests that between those two arrows is greater that 136 feet.

James

Chris,

Maybe I am approaching this incorrectly - as far as you are concerned - but for me the physical distanced traveled is an important fact.

Take Z 216.

If we assume - and maybe that is incorrect to assume that - that Zapruder's description of the physical traveling down Elm Street is correct then something is wrong here. What I mean is if the position of the car in Zapruder at 216 is exactly where 216 is on the road - then I do not understand the position of the SS cat.

As I understand it 216 is a progress of 90.5 feet from 133. However at - what is termed 216 - the SS car is somewhere like 50 feet further forward.

216 cannot be in two different physical locations. Unless I have misunderstood, it is not a matter of different film speeds, the cars are in different physical locations.

Can you help me out here?

James