Evan Burton

All these books are well worth acquiring to broaden one’s outlook on this subject.

Mr Brown forgot to mention the National Inquirer article about the B-17 bomber found on the Moon; the books mentioned fall into the same category.

Once again, it's the same old claims that have been raised and dealt with. The majority of the claims made by Rene have been discussed on this Forum; even so, this might make a good thread to bundle a lot of them together.

What the review does do is to highlight how people can regurgitate claims as gospel, without checking the veracity of the claims first.

Hope things go well for you, John. I wish I could offer words to improve the situation, but they won't. We're all thinking of you and your family.

The only thing I can think of is the altitude at which aircraft operate. Early post-WWII, jets were operating higher and higher... but this was the domain of military aircraft. Most civil aircraft were propeller driven, operating about 25 000 feet.

These days, civil jets are everywhere, routinely operating at 35-40 thousand feet.

That's just a guess, though.

Charles,

I was a little vague in my post; hopefully these annotations to Jack's images will illustrate what I am saying. In both images, the contrails are clear; the high-level cloud (either cirrus or cirrostratus) is distinct from the contrails. In one image, you see some cloud which I think is possibly the remnants of a previous contrail.

Dispersing contrails will tend to form a straight line and be more easily recognisable from naturally occurring cirrus / cirrostratus. It is normally dependent on the wind at altitude.

This is an image that shows conditions where the contrails do spread out to form cirrus-like cloud, but you can clearly see that they are dispersing contrails.

Compare the preceding to cirrus cloud:

and cirrostratus:

Though not an educator or in the system, I see parents who for too long allow the kids to 'remain in the nest'. If you have a decent income, it can be very beneficial to be forced to confront the world on your own.

I believe it is particularly beneficial in learning to clean up after yourself, how to take care of common domestics, etc.

Well I'm not an educator or in the system.... Interesting comment though -- your training that enables you to make those types of decisions is? Or, did you throw your own kids out when you thought the time was correct?

No, never married, never been a parent.

I base it on my own experience, and watching what has happened to other people's kids. When things are done for you, there is no particular motivation to do them for yourself. Kids can be untidy (use your own definition of this), but when forced to rely upon themselves tend to develop good habits regarding cleaning, domestics, generally looking after oneself.

This is not always the case, however. One of my closest friends, who I have known for over 30 years... he's a pig. I used to share an apartment with him, and I was always doing the cleaning, washing, etc. My bright idea was to NOT do it, thereby forcing him to participate in the workload. Once things reached an unacceptable level, he'll start to clean.

Nope. Didn't work. He'd just move piles of clothing, sniff what he needed, iron if really necessary, etc.

Even today, he hasn't changed. His house is a mess. I really fear sitting down when there - never know what might be under the cushion. Don't even think about the kitchen - imagine the worst and it is comparable.

Anyways - I find that a lot of people, when forced look after themselves, rise to the challenge very well. Not always, though.

Though not an educator or in the system, I see parents who for too long allow the kids to 'remain in the nest'. If you have a decent income, it can be very beneficial to be forced to confront the world on your own.

I believe it is particularly beneficial in learning to clean up after yourself, how to take care of common domestics, etc.

Another interesting thing to note is in each of those pictures with persistent contrails that Jack posted there are also high cirrus clouds. If the conditions are such that high cirrus clouds exist, then it is highly likely that contrails will be persitent at similar altitudes.

The "high cirrus clouds" were the result of the spreading of the chemtrails.

Jack

Jack,

That is HIGHLY debatable in either of the images, so much so I would say you are very wrong. Although I have had meteorological training, and am a trained met observer, I would discount my own opinion and ask that you show the images to a meteorologist and seek their opinion. I am sure there are many around your area. If they agree with you and disagree with me, please post their reply here.

You might want to read this, or Google "clouds cirrus".

I watched them spell out "froggy" over Sydney about 2003 (IIRC). I wondered WOWTF was froggy. Turns out it was for that failed TelCo, froggy.com

Where you said: "or possibly a form of religious brainwashing"; being that Jim Irwin professed to being a Christian, founded a Christian ministry, etc, and you said "or possibly a form of religious brainwashing", that to me sounds like you are saying he may have been brainwashed by the religion in question (Christianity; I don't know what particular faith he followed).

Maybe I should have been more clear in what I meant .... I never meant to imply that Christians or the the Christian religion brainwashed Jim Irwin ... What I was implying is that NASA possibly did the brainwashing in the making of their Manchurian Candidates during The Monarch Program , or one of the other secret Nazi/NASA/government programs of brainwashing and mind control ... This has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY FORM OF ORGANIZED CHRISTIAN RELIGION .

Okay; to me it sounded like you were saying the "brainwashing" was done by a religion. Thanks for clearing that up - although I still say you are wrong with your assessment.

In Secaucus, NJ late December 2006, shortly before noon, I saw a large airplane doing skywriting -- or practicing it. We were about to pull out of the parking spot, when I asked my friend if she thought it weird. She was virtually non-committal, but I was able to watch for a couple of minutes. He was at relatively low altitude. He made two O's, a K and a C. I think he was practicing. It was odd, but I wanted to report it here, this large plane making virtual sharp circles. The skeptics will either ignore or attack my sighting. I don't care.

Kathy,

I don't know why you thought it was odd. Skywriting takes place in numerous countries. It spelt OOKC? I think you are right in think that they were practicing.

Peter,

I don't know much more (probably less) than you do about weather control, but I have heard it mentioned in relation to 'chemtrails'.

Matt,

Yep. All of the aerosols I have heard of are released from low altitude. Operation RANCH HAND and Agent Orange is just one example:

Also, it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't some sort of urban pacification strategy which employed gas, but I am showing my paranoia. Likely the CT concerning "chemtrails" is only that, a theory. But, I also find the philosophy of questioning the weird contrail patterns to be a healthy form of paranoia; as it is only paranoia if it isn't true, and sooner or later it will be.

Oh, by all means question; just also listen to the replies.. as you are doing.

Yep, I would say that somewhere there are plans for urban pacification using airborne delivered gas (or more properly, aerosol) - makes sense if that is what you are going to do.

To me, a weakness in the current claims of "chemtrails" is there happening at high altitude on days where they can clearly be seen. Think of two different scenarios:

1. CHEMTRAILS TO INTRODUCE PATHOGEN / MIND CONTROL / ETC. If this were the case, it would be a covert operation. Why do it where it can clearly be seen? Wouldn't it be better done on cloudy days, where the dispersal could be hidden? The higher the altitude, the longer the various wind currents can affect the final touchdown zone of any aerosol dispersed. Why not use lower altitude? Because airliners are being used, and they have to follow normal paths and everything must seem normal? Is aerosol being dispersed from an airliner normal? The systems involved would be discovered eventually; there are far too many people who have access to the airframe and systems for engineering / airworthiness purposes for it to be kept a secret.

2. CHEMTRAILS FOR WEATHER CONTROL / REDUCING GLOBAL WARMING. If this were being done to stop global warming, wouldn't you want to advertise the fact? Counter negative publicity from Kyoto, etc?

Sounds like the experience of a born-again Christian

Sound more like poetic license to me , or possibly a form of religious brainwashing .... He found "the love of God on the Moon" .

That being posted by a professed ATHIEST is almost too funny for words !

You don't have to be a theist to discuss theology. I just normally don't discuss such matters; they have their opinions, I have mine.

I wonder how Christians on this forum take your assessment of Jim Irwin's behaviour? You have said that he is either taking "poetic licence", or is brainwashed. Do you consider Christianity a cult that brainwashes people? Are you saying that Jim Irwin was being disingenuous, either deliberately or through brainwashing?

You just can't resist trying to stir up more trouble for me on this forum can you Evan ?

When I did I ever imply that Christianity was "a cult that brainwashes people " ??? ...

Where you said: "or possibly a form of religious brainwashing"; being that Jim Irwin professed to being a Christian, founded a Christian ministry, etc, and you said "or possibly a form of religious brainwashing", that to me sounds like you are saying he may have been brainwashed by the religion in question (Christianity; I don't know what particular faith he followed).

He didn't "require" it; he chose it to try to relive emotionally the experience, something he couldn't do at the time (every second counted).

As I have said before, I still see this as being in character with Dr Mitchell.

I'm still looking to see if there are similar experiences with other astronauts, but I haven't found any as yet. There are, however, plenty of people who have used or are using hypnotherapy / hypnotic regression to relive events.

How these men chose to deal with the experience of lunar exploration varies with the individual, and all you are saying is it is your opinion that they should not have done this. Opinion, not proof of any Apollo fakery.

Duane,

Before you inadvertently offend any of the Christians who may read this thread, some more about Jim Irwin:

Irwin also became the first person to quote from the Bible while on the moon, Psalm 121:1: "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help."

.........

"I was a little reluctant to form another organization (to share the gospel), because I knew there were many in existence to do essentially the same thing. Many people gave me advice, like Dr. Billy Graham, said the message was basically the same, but a little different approach, and he suggested forming an organization."

"We formed High Flight," James Irwin explained. "I had a high flight, and we're interested in everyone having a higher flight in life—the ultimate flight when life ends."

......................

Astronauts Al Worden, William Pogue, and Charles Duke also spoke for High Flight to share the Christian message. They spoke at conventions, civic groups, schools, before various military groups, and at many other places in America.

......................

The former astronaut used a variety of means to share his faith and tell about traveling to the moon, besides public speaking. High Flight published a book, To Rule the Night, which contained the testimony of Colonel James Irwin, The Moon is not Enough, a book by Mary Irwin, wife of James Irwin, several tracts, and The Highest Flight, the New Testament with pictures of the Apollo 15 mission.

One of High Flight's ministries, Project Uplift, was designed to not only share the Christian faith, but also encourage young people who were unsure what career to pursue.

"It's a program of going into primarily high schools," Irwin explained. "Sometimes we do programs in universities, sometimes the junior high level, to encourage young people, motivate them, try to inspire them. I just share how God worked in my life in the flight to the moon."

.......................

He gave each group he spoke before an autographed picture of himself on the moon with an inscription: "Jesus Christ waking on the earth is more important than man walking on the moon"

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/4...graphy_and.html

I don't consider this to be someone who has been "brainwashed" or taking "poetic licence". Just because I do not agree with their views on faith does not mean I believe they are not genuine in their religious beliefs. Once again, this to me sounds like the experience of a born-again Christian.

Sounds like the experience of a born-again Christian

Sound more like poetic license to me , or possibly a form of religious brainwashing .... He found "the love of God on the Moon" .

That being posted by a professed ATHIEST is almost too funny for words !

You don't have to be a theist to discuss theology. I just normally don't discuss such matters; they have their opinions, I have mine.

I wonder how Christians on this forum take your assessment of Jim Irwin's behaviour? You have said that he is either taking "poetic licence", or is brainwashed. Do you consider Christianity a cult that brainwashes people? Are you saying that Jim Irwin was being disingenuous, either deliberately or through brainwashing?

Duane, Gavin - enough please.

I thought the "legs" image & comment was a personal attack and not a joke; Craig, however, did not appear offended by it therefore no action is being taken. Everyone here at some time tends to bandy the odd insult or two. I have no problem with that as long as it is not one sided and that it remains at a low level.

I consider:

You are still a whiney little tattle tale trouble maker with a personal vendetta against me

to be too close to the line, and I want both parties to stop it now before it develops any further.

Peter, Charles:

A good site from the UK from a researcher who studies contrails:

http://hazelrigg.es.lancs.ac.uk/amy/Home.htm

Another excellent site to read is:

http://contrailscience.com/

Be sure to read the sections on the history of 'chemtrails' and chemical analysis of same.

Come on Duane, show us you photography, research and cognitive skills!

Okay , here's some cognitive research skills for you .

Craig can't prove that the stagelights which are reflected in the Apollo 12 (Conrad) and the Apolo 17 (Cernan) visors are really"smudges on the visors " ... but he can prove how fine looking his legs are !

I like the way you complain about people going off topic and making personal attacks... then you do exactly the same as what you are complaining about.

Let's put what you are quoting about Jim Irwin (Apollo 15) into context, shall we?

...This is how Jim Irwin spent the last two decades of his life, sharing his faith, testifying to the love of God that he discovered, he said, on the Moon...

...Back on earth, that awakening caused Irwin's life to change dramatically. Urged by his wife to heed this new spiritual call, supported by family friend and minister Bill Rittenhouse, Irwin left the astronaut corps and founded the High Flight ministry in 1972...

Duane's quote is then immediately followed by:

Irwin had expected that response, but for his own part, he had no doubts about why his life took the path that it did. "God had a plan for me, to leave the Earth and to share the adventure with others, so that they can be lifted up." Going to the moon, he said, "prepared me for a role of greater service."

(Chaikin, A MAN ON THE MOON, epilogue)

Sounds like the experience of a born-again Christian.

That's the thing I stated very early in one of the 'chemtrail' threads; we can't actually positively deny it. The balance of probability will weigh very heavily in favour of a mundane, explainable occurrence... but unless you can take a sample of the vapour behind the aircraft you cannot say it is does not contain any unusual chemicals.

Still, I am not aware of anyone who has ever sampled and analysed one of these 'chemtrails'.

Setting up another witch hunt against me again I see. ... You really are to be pitied Evan .

Do you think by posting my past comments here that you might manage to have me banned again , or are you just going for another permanate moderation maybe with all your goading tactics ?

There is nothing I posted that isn't true , and I'm really surprised you posted it all here for everyone to see , as it does put you and your pals in a rather bad light and also exposes your game plan here on this forum as well .

All I have done is quote what you have said - on this Forum - and provided a link to the source post.

Wrong again Evan ... I was banned for ten days , thanks to whoever ran to Andy Walker with the lie that I am really Mike St Mark ... My IP address was even blocked so I couldn't view the forum ... It took a lot of hard work on the part of a friend of mine here to have me reinstated and then a lot of work on my part have my moderation lifted .

That is not my understanding, but I am willing to be corrected on the matter. If what you say is correct, then I freely retract my statement to the contrary.

********************

Edited to Add: That is the last post I will make on the matter, so as to accede to Kathy's wishes and wise counsel.

Also , if you could find any footage of BOTH astronots using their cameras at the SAME TIME ( hand held or on their chestplates ) then I think NASA will give you a special award as one of their biggest defenders of the Apollo cause !... ( the A12 Bean/Conrad piccy doesn't count )

Not sure WHICH of the Apollo 12 images you are talking about (if you want the hi-res images, just put HR on the end of the URLs):

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...S12-46-6736.jpg

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...S12-47-6899.jpg (I think this is the reverse shot of the one above - but will have to check further to be sure)

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...S12-48-7071.jpg (Bean taking photo of Conrad)

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...S12-49-7281.jpg (Conrad taking photo of Bean just before / after 7071 above)

Of course, we have the images of John Young being photographed during his "jump salute":

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...6-113-18339.jpg

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...6-113-18340.jpg

along with the video footage of it:

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16v.1202502.mov

But let's get back to Duane:

I really don't understand why you continue to post here ... Even the forum owner enjoys ridiculing you and your work ...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=104301

It's a waste of time posting here because of the dishonesty , the silly mind games and the insulting character assassinations of those who don't believe that the Apollo photographs were really taken on the moon .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=104153

As for this forum , I would be glad to post more of the Apollo hoax evidence here , but it is usually met with such distain and deliberate dishonesty , that it is hardly worth the bother anymore .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=&pid=99702

You and your "friends" make this forum a cesspit with your off topic ad homs and hateful comments.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=&pid=92429

And some of the random insults:

You're accusing Jack of attacking the messenger ? .... Now that IS funny! .... Neither he, nor I can post one freaking word here without lamson the sociopath , Evan the robot soldier , Greer the geek , and Len the xxxxx , stomping us both into the ground with their uncalled for personal insults.

You military boys are all alike ... programmed like little robots, to defend your country , even when what you are defending is your country's lies .

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=&pid=91852

etc, etc

But I'd like clarification on this one:

That's why I was banned from this forum , and then after I cleared my name of your false accusations , was reinstated and placed on "permanate moderation

Now, to the best of my knowledge (and I am willing to be corrected) you were never banned. You were placed on moderation. There were no 'false accusations' made against you and so you were never "cleared" of them. You were placed on moderation for your actions on the Forum, and after a period of good behaviour, were taken off of moderation.

John / Andy, if I am incorrect about this, please correct me; I do not wish to say anything untrue about Duane. Thanks.