Mark Stapleton
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Posts posted by Mark Stapleton
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And, one just may want to check up on exactly who Lorenzo (Larry) Borenstein was and exactly what connections that he had.
Just may suprise one!
Thomas,
What connections did he have?
All I could find was a reference to Borenstein in this article from some years back in Fair Play magazine, which claims he was related to Trotsky (?):
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...er2.html#N_233_
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Whether or not Butler was approached to be in the plot rates below his revelations on the motives for war, for my part. And I always thought Ike was the first to warn about the MIC.
His brief period as Philly's Director of Public Safety is very instructive. An honest public official can expect a short career indeed. Treating the poor and the wealthy as equally answerable to the law guarantees a brief and controversial role in public life (I'm duty bound to point out the similarity with todays war on drugs). Fortunately for Butler, he had a boss who could fire him immediately. JFK was fired the other way.
Somebody should make a movie about this guy. He would be a far more interesting and complex case study than Eliot Ness.
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General Smedley Butler had this to say about the Military Industrial Complex in an article that appeared in Common Sense (November, 1935):
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.
He then followed it with the book, War is a Racket (1935)
War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
In the (First) World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.
Thanks for directing attention to this John. I hadn't read the 'plot to overthrow Rosevelt' thread.
I must confess I hadn't heard of him before but he seems like an extraordinary individual, and the first to expose the Military Industrial Complex.
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Craig,
Years ago I read the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola. Truly. That was a few decades ago now. Interesting outfit the Society of Jesu..."Foot soldiers of the Pope" as they're colloquially called.
I've always found it interesting that Loyola was born in the Basque region of Spain and became a knight before turning his sword in other directions. It must be something about the Spanish diet or the Spanish air because it was that same nation that spilled forth Josemaria Eskriva, the mysoginist (in many eyes) founder of Opus Dei, an unpleasant doctrinaire order that "flourished" under the rule of fascist Generalissimo Francisco Franco. Eskriva published a collection of 999 "maxims". Imagine that.
The early title of the Society of Jesuits was "the Way", whereas the title of OD is "the Work". Both orders consider the others their arch rivals, if not enemies, it seems.
The rigid discipline of the Jesuits that is aimed at bringing the failing flesh under the control of the mind has its echo in the corporeal mortifications practised by Opus Dei -- who use the cilice, a small metal chain with inward pointing spikes that is fastened to the upper thigh and tightened to cause discomfort. A sort of Christian equivalent to S&M, so far as I can see.
I am also familiar with the Assassin sect, founded by Hasan-i Sabbah, which is another brutal religious sect.
Now, as an enticement, I have an unusual picture of Generalissimo Franco in the company of a kneeling Juan Antonio Samarnach, Hon. Presidente for life (and back pocket filler) of the IOC -- or a most unusual and revealing picture of Spanish Bullfighters (notice the dual Spanish angle -- neat eh) and I'm happy to post one or both of them.
Providing...
All I want is for you to please answer those two questions I posed earlier -- which is only fair as I answered your "considerations" more than fully - and also to ask that you also tell me which unit of Christian soldiers you're with? I know I'm a pain in the ass. Just humour me, okay.
Anyway, neither request is a brainer is it?
And I'm being nice and polite too, eh...
David
Looks like Craig is dodging your questions, David.
Maybe he's trying to emulate his idol. The way Dubya avoided the Vietnam War by joining the National Air Guard (somehow bypassing an 18 month waiting list in the process) was priceless:
David is posting messages to me? Foolish David. A poster who resorts to nazi and klan references in just a few posts is not someone I'll deal with.
In that case you'd better scratch me too. A poster who resorts to describing the Palestinians as people who play the victim card and then has the shameless hypocrisy to claim he is deeply offended at David's posts is not someone I'll deal with.
Good luck with the banjo lessons.
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Craig,
Years ago I read the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola. Truly. That was a few decades ago now. Interesting outfit the Society of Jesu..."Foot soldiers of the Pope" as they're colloquially called.
I've always found it interesting that Loyola was born in the Basque region of Spain and became a knight before turning his sword in other directions. It must be something about the Spanish diet or the Spanish air because it was that same nation that spilled forth Josemaria Eskriva, the mysoginist (in many eyes) founder of Opus Dei, an unpleasant doctrinaire order that "flourished" under the rule of fascist Generalissimo Francisco Franco. Eskriva published a collection of 999 "maxims". Imagine that.
The early title of the Society of Jesuits was "the Way", whereas the title of OD is "the Work". Both orders consider the others their arch rivals, if not enemies, it seems.
The rigid discipline of the Jesuits that is aimed at bringing the failing flesh under the control of the mind has its echo in the corporeal mortifications practised by Opus Dei -- who use the cilice, a small metal chain with inward pointing spikes that is fastened to the upper thigh and tightened to cause discomfort. A sort of Christian equivalent to S&M, so far as I can see.
I am also familiar with the Assassin sect, founded by Hasan-i Sabbah, which is another brutal religious sect.
Now, as an enticement, I have an unusual picture of Generalissimo Franco in the company of a kneeling Juan Antonio Samarnach, Hon. Presidente for life (and back pocket filler) of the IOC -- or a most unusual and revealing picture of Spanish Bullfighters (notice the dual Spanish angle -- neat eh) and I'm happy to post one or both of them.
Providing...
All I want is for you to please answer those two questions I posed earlier -- which is only fair as I answered your "considerations" more than fully - and also to ask that you also tell me which unit of Christian soldiers you're with? I know I'm a pain in the ass. Just humour me, okay.
Anyway, neither request is a brainer is it?
And I'm being nice and polite too, eh...
David
Looks like Craig is dodging your questions, David.
Maybe he's trying to emulate his idol. The way Dubya avoided the Vietnam War by joining the National Air Guard (somehow bypassing an 18 month waiting list in the process) was priceless:
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Its not a govenrnment line Mark, its the words of Bin Laden and his guys. Oh wait, I forgot, you believe its all a fake, regardlees of the fact you can't back that up. Who has fallen for what? LOL! And it's really YOU who sounds like the media. Bush and Cheney WANT another attack to occur? What? You a mind reader now?
Not a mind reader, just an observer of US foreign policy. And yes, Bush, Chaney, the hawkish media and their soul mates most assuredly do want another terrorist attack to occur on US soil. Nothing would restore their tarnished images quicker, at least that's what they believe. It's a logical conclusion. US foreign policy appears determined to make it happen. For them, it's a case of nothing to lose and everything to gain. In case you missed it, your country is being run by a pack of greedy, cowardly warmongers. You haven't been paying attention. They are happy to sacrifice lives, as long as it isn't themselves or their families, of course.
It's true there are radical fundamentalist Islamists just as there are radical fundamentalist Christians, who also advocate a holy war. Your mistake is to assume that there is widespread support for such fundamentalist sentiments among the general populace. The vast majority of Christians and Muslims have no desire for a holy war, it's only a tiny minority who are manipulating the gullible into believing that the other side wishes to destroy them.I agree there is not widespread support amoung the western world to support a war, that is pretty clear. On the other hand there is scant evidence that those of the muslim faith feel the same. There has been almost no condemnation of radical Islam by the rank and file muslims.
How would you know? Do you ever speak to rank and file Muslims? I doubt it, you're too scared of them.
Islam is about submission. The teachings of the faith require that conversion take place and by the sword if required.
I see. And the Muslim rank and file all agree on this one, I presume?
So what's going to happen, Craig? Once the insurgents have driven the infidel's out of Iraq, there'll be a massive Muslim summit---after which they will sail across the sea and arrive in America brandishing cutlass and broadsword yelling 'death to the infidel'.
I can see why you're so frightened.
If you need evidence that Bush, Cheney and their media cheer squad support a holy war you only have to look at the invasion of Iraq and what it has produced. Hatred towards the West has become a self sustaining process.[/unquote]
Buch has gone to great lenghts to NOT cast this as a holy war. The press as well. Muslim hatred of the west was doing quite well before Iraq Mark in case you missed it.
[qoute]
Incidentally, when it comes to radical organisations like Hamas in Palestine, it could be argued, and it has been on this forum, that they are a legitimate resistance group who have developed in response to 60 years of displacement and brutal treatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli Government. Prior to the partitioning of Palestine, Jewish terrorist groups such as Irgun and Hagannah were active and responsible for many murders. Under the circumstances, it could be argued that Hamas have just as much legitimacy, if not more, than those Jewish terrorists of pre-Israel days.
You just HAD to get your anti jewish sentiments in here somewhere ....
So stating an historical fact that Jewish terrorist groups have been active in the past is anti-Jewish? Perhaps you should ask the moderators to delete any posts which mention this fact in future--it's obviously too anti-Jewish. Very weak, Craig.
Its also relevant because the treatment of the Palestinians has been a festering sore which has soured relations between the Arab world and the US for decades. That means they don't like you. And who the hell can blame them? And they know Jewish terrorism existed prior to the current Muslim terrorists, even if you don't like hearing it.
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Craig writes:
"Mark, I'm not only basing my stance on "selective quotations from Islamic scripture" but on the actual words from the radical Islam itself. Now if you can offer any substantive proof that these words are "faintly disguised messages coming from the White House." I'll be happy to check them out.
Would I sacrifice myself to the cause, most certainly if required. What cause are you will to sacrfice yourself for Mark?"
Not one as phony as this.
Why the dodge Mark? A simply question yet you fail to answer? What are YOU willing to die for?
What am I willing to die for? No one has ever asked me--probably because it is such a stupid and impertinent question. But just to humor you; Would I risk my life in defence of family? Yes. In defence of country? If it was invaded then probably yes. Would I become a suicide bomber and sacrifice my life because of religious zealotry? No--but I'm not religious, but maybe if I had grown up in a country whose people had been brutally suppressed and murdered for many years I would think differently. Palestine, for example.
However, you are the one arguing that a life and death struggle between Islam and Christianity is occuring. You are the one frothing at the mouth about how Islam wants to destroy the West. You are making the case for war, not me. You claim you are prepared to die for it. So why don't you follow through? You said you would sacrifice yourself for this cause if necessary. Well it is necessary--the US is short of troops, don't you know. They're having a lot of trouble recruiting. Here's your chance prove yourself. You can post from Iraq, if there are any internet cafes still standing. If not, borrow your CO's laptop.
Will you answer the call or will you dodge, Craig?
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Craig writes:
"Mark, I'm not only basing my stance on "selective quotations from Islamic scripture" but on the actual words from the radical Islam itself. Now if you can offer any substantive proof that these words are "faintly disguised messages coming from the White House." I'll be happy to check them out.
Would I sacrifice myself to the cause, most certainly if required. What cause are you will to sacrfice yourself for Mark?"
Not one as phony as this.
You've fallen for the line your Government and its backers are pushing, i.e. Islam wants to destroy the West, they hate us for our freedom etc. You sound like a spokesman for the tabloid media. Of course, you realise that the western media would be a big winner if the scenario you subscribe to becomes reality. In fact, the way the media are playing it up suggests the media owners are hoping another major terrorist attack in America will soon occur. You can bet Bush and Cheney are also hoping this will occur.
It's true there are radical fundamentalist Islamists just as there are radical fundamentalist Christians, who also advocate a holy war. Your mistake is to assume that there is widespread support for such fundamentalist sentiments among the general populace. The vast majority of Christians and Muslims have no desire for a holy war, it's only a tiny minority who are manipulating the gullible into believing that the other side wishes to destroy them.
If you need evidence that Bush, Cheney and their media cheer squad support a holy war you only have to look at the invasion of Iraq and what it has produced. Hatred towards the West has become a self sustaining process.
Incidentally, when it comes to radical organisations like Hamas in Palestine, it could be argued, and it has been on this forum, that they are a legitimate resistance group who have developed in response to 60 years of displacement and brutal treatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli Government. Prior to the partitioning of Palestine, Jewish terrorist groups such as Irgun and Hagannah were active and responsible for many murders. Under the circumstances, it could be argued that Hamas have just as much legitimacy, if not more, than those Jewish terrorists of pre-Israel days.
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To me this is a key issue. Like in Vietnam, is it morally acceptable to urge the fighting of wars when it results in the deaths of thousands of young people? This becomes even more of a moral issue when one considers the motives behind the war. The official line is that this is part of a war on terror and is connected in some way with 9/11. Large numbers of people, including many members of this forum, pointed out that this action would actually increase terrorism and increase the threat to the security of the people living in the Western World. This has proved to be the case.
For example, this is what Timothy Garton Ash, one of the UK’s leading foreign policy experts had to say about the situation in Iraq:
“Beside the effective destruction of the Iraqi state, these include the revitalising of militant Islamism and enhancement of the international appeal of the al-Qaida brand; the eruption for the first time in modern history of internecine war between Sunni and Shia - "a trend that reverberates in other states of mixed confessional composition"; the alienation of most sectors of Turkish politics from the west, and the stimulation of authoritarian nationalism there; the strengthening of a nuclear-hungry Iran; and a new regional rivalry, pitting the Islamic Republic of Iran and its allies, including Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas, against Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan.
For the US itself, the world is now, as a result of the Iraq war, a more dangerous and hostile place. At the end of 2002, what is sometimes tagged al-Qaida Central in Afghanistan had been virtually destroyed and there was no al-Qaida in Iraq. In 2007, there is an al-Qaida in Iraq; parts of the old al-Qaida are creeping back into Afghanistan; and there are al-Qaida emulator groupuscules spawning elsewhere, notably in Europe. Osama bin Laden's plan was to get the US to overreact and over-reach itself. With the invasion of Iraq, President Bush fell slap-bang into that trap. The US government's own latest national intelligence estimate, released earlier this week, suggests that al-Qaida in Iraq is now among the most significant threats to the security of the American homeland.”
One possible answer to this is that Bush and Blair have little understanding of the politics of the region and made an honest mistake. This seems to me unlikely. For example, President Clinton came under pressure from the far-right to invade Iraq when he was in power. He commissioned a report from the CIA about the possible consequences of an invasion of Iraq. The report suggested that the likely consequences would be those identified by Timothy Garton Ash. Understandably, Clinton decided not to order an invasion. Bush and Blair also sought advice before ordering the invasion. However, we now know that they “cherry picked” the evidence in order to justify the invasion. Most notably, this was the claim that Iraq posed a threat to the Western World because it possessed WMD. Something of course that was untrue.
Whatever way you look at it, Bush and Blair seemed determined to invade Iraq. Why? There are several possibilities. (1) Oil; (2) Bush and Blair were acting in the perceived interests of Israel; (3) They were making decisions based on the economic interests of the arms manufacturers. If one looks at the financial backers of these two men, it is probably a combination of all three. It is of course no coincidence that the only beneficiaries of the Vietnam War were companies who were financial backers of Lyndon Johnson: General Dynamics, Bell Corporation and Brown & Root (Halliburton).
Good post, John.
To my way of thinking, this is the most important point. How can the waste of young American lives, not to mention the civilian Iraqi casualties, a much higher number again, be morally justifiable? Especially when one considers the motives behind the invasion.
Craig seems to be saying a global conflict between Islam and Christianity is at hand, based on selective quotation from Islamic scripture (and possibly the faintly disguised messages coming from the White House). Perhaps this justifies the human sacrifice to Craig, in which case I would ask Craig if he is willing to sacrifice himself for the cause?
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Very sad news considering Tim was still quite young. My condolences to Tim's family.
Farewell, Tim.
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Ah David I see your problem, you actually BELIEVE there is such a thing as 'International Law". Sorry to inform you but your belief is misplaced. "International Law" is pure illusion.
Funny that you say that because the "Baby Doc" administration tried using international law to justify invading Iraq (They were in violation of Security Council resolutions)
Regardless of your faith in illusion, it has ALWAYS been the rule of the biggest gun. All attempts to show that your " protocols of civilised behaviour" were the pathway to a more blissful world have been a miserable failure. You must be very proud that your chosen course is a complete failure. I'm sure that also delights radical Islam.It's fortunate that the world has the "ugly Americans" to do the dirty work. One can only imagine the world with only the " protocols of civilised behaviour" guarding the door. Can you say prayer rug? Critical thinking tells me that the survival of the western world as we know it REQUIRES that the BIGGEST GUN is the only answer. And that David will be the path to triumph.
I don’t know if “might makes right” is the answer by most accounts the invasion of Iraq has left “radical Islam” a lot stronger than before. The US has a lot bigger guns than Brazil, Sweden, the Netherlands, Costa Rica, South Africa, Japan etc yet with minor exception those and many other small gunned countries have free (or almost free) of terrorist attacks. The UK and Spain only became targets due to their support of the invasion. How many Afgans and Iraqis joined the “resistance” after having friend or loved ones killed/maimed/raped/tortured by “coalition forces”? Why do a majority of Iraqis of all ethnicities say they want the US out and that they were better off under Saddam? Might Israel suffer less if it treated the Arabs in and around it better? Perhaps part of the problem is that the US and its allies are too quick to use their ‘big guns’.
Shudder until the cows come home, thats exactly what is expected from the timid and the weak.Eagerness to send others to war or be tortured don't equal courage and reluctance to do doesn't equal cowardice.
Hats off to Mr. C for an excellent post.
Here here. Good post Len.
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I'm keenly awaiting Tim's response.
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J.F.K'S WOMEN: THE SCANDALS REVEALED
Broadcast Date: Friday 20 July 2007
Channel: Free to Air / SBS
Broadcast Time: 7.30 pm
Classifications: Other, PG (CC)
Timeslot Duration: 60 mins
(From the US, in English) (Documentary)
Evan,
I didn't see this but I don't think I missed anything.
The blurb stated that that the program 'reveals an unseen side of JFK who allegedly risked his political career and country's security for sex'. Yawn. Another instalment in the slow drip campaign to tarnish JFK's reputation. He navigates his country around the CMC, ignoring calls for a nuclear strike from crazies like LeMay but somehow still 'risked his country's security for sex'. Sure, sure.
The program was probably laced with salacious gossip and 'explosive allegations' from 'people who saw it all'. A direct lift from a Murdoch scandal sheet masquerading as an historical doco would be a more accurate description, imo.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass how many starlets JFK pantsed.
In the interests of balancing the ledger, when will we see docos about LBJ's famous nooky room? I'm not holding my breath.
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Yes, it's clear that the fear factor from 9/11 is fading and worse still, the public can now see the war on terror for what it is. 'Murkans need a booster shot.
The Bush Administration's backers value life cheaply (unless its one of them and theirs of course), so the human cost of any planned false flag will not be an issue. However, getting a highly skeptical public to support any 'retaliatory' action against Iran might be a problem, I think.
Bush, his loyal puppet Western leaders, and the shrill supporters of war in the western media have too much form. It won't fool anyone, not even the flag waving trailer park crowd.
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Mark and Steve,
Continung fascination with all this. Steve in your above you said McNaughten says Druitt was fished out of the Thames on 31st Decemeber? Is that correct. Everywhere I look it says 1st December. But the information I was provided with says, in fact, 31st. Curious anomaly or back to me unsmoking strong stuff? Also, does McKnacker of the Yard say who fished the dearly departed from said Thames? I was told a name and it is not the name stated in the published literature (not that I'm anything but a dummy about this).
Mark,
On your most interesting post too, you metnion the Juwes. I don't believe this was a misspelling for Jews although it was assumed so at the time. However, McNaughten would've known that wasn't true. "Juwes" were the three assassins of Hiram Abiff from Freemasonic lore -- Jubelo, Jebela and Jebelum.
These names remind me of Jubilee? Whaddya reckon?
Also, the phrasing rythm and style of those three names also reminds me of boring old latin when I was at school and the Hiram Abiff story is said to date back well before that period.
David
David,
Re the date of the discovery of MJD's remains, December 31 might be correct. My mistake. I believe the police estimated he had been in the water for about six weeks, however the reported sighting of Druitt on December 3 casts a shadow of doubt on this.
Re the chalk message found near the murder scene, I'm not convinced that was written by the Ripper, and your explanation of its meaning only adds to my doubt.
p.s. I mainly wanted to highlight the Druitt profile on that suspect list, but your observation concerning the Kosminski profile and the chalkings is interesting. I wonder if Ripperologists have considered this.
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And in the interest of balance, it should also be noted that Len is our friendly neighborhood apologist for Israel and defender of official inquiries.
So Mark do you really think the positions you ascribe to me are equivalent to denying the brutal murder of 10 – 12 million innocent civilians and attempted genocide of 2 ethnic groups?
As for me being an “apologist for Israel” you’ve leveled that charge at me before and should know by now it isn’t accurate I have criticized that state for it invasions of Lebanon and Gaza among other misdeeds. AFAICR I have only defended Israel against four “charges”:
- It attacked the Liberty knowing it was an American ship; you have failed to respond to numerous points I’ve made on that thread.
Bollocks. Those who read that thread may decide for themselves which were the key issues in that argument. Far from 'failing to respond to numerous points', I merely refused to become embroiled in the argument on your terms, which often involves drowning the thread in a sea of details, many of which upon scrutiny usually prove less than convincing in support of your position, tangential to the debate or are simply irrelevant. Arguing on your terms means going around and around and around. Anyway, I let you have the last word, didn't I?
- J.J. Angleton betrayed his country for Israel – I’ve seen no evidence to support this theory other than the placement of a cardboard “plaque” in his “honor” next to a garbage dump.
I have.
- A group of Mossad agents had foreknowledge of and/or were part of the 9/11 attacks.
- It and other Jews were responsible for the assassination of JFK – the “evidence” is underwhelming.
There are appropriate threads for addressing the above topics. As for me being a “defender of official inquiries” that’s simply more ‘straw’. I’ve said more than once that I believe that:
-the JFK and MLK jr. assassinations were the results of conspiracies,
-I have questions about the 9/11 C. Report
-The Bush administration knew Iraq didn’t have WMD’s or significant ties to al-Queda before the invasion
-Poppa Bush and Reagan made a deal with the Iranians not to release the hostages till after the election.
Think there was something fishy about the 9/11 enquiry? Forget it--Len's on the case and assures us that everything is above board and AOK.No I said that the 9/11 C. did a lot of CYA for the Clinton and Bush administrations and that the latter lied about events before and after the attacks and that LIHOP is a possibility. I don’t believe theories that the WTC towers were brought down by demolition charges and that NORAD/the USAF stood down etc hold any water and I have the near unanimous backing of qualified experts and witnesses.
Think the Zapruder film may have been altered? Stop being so damned stupid!Yes I think such theories are nonsense and most JFK researchers seem to agree. The “alterationists” have yet to find one qualified expert to back their position, several have refuted it.
LOL and it seems to irk you when I call you “the strawman from Oz”. I don’t suppose you can cite where I have said anything along those lines?
Is there a media bias in favor of Israel? I didn't catch your answer.
PS – Edited to add – I glad you finally acknowledge that your buddy is a Holocaust denier, you humorously tried to deny this after he admitted to it.
I acknowledge no such thing. My intrusion into this thread was in response to your belittling Sid with this distasteful label, which you seem to do on a regular basis. I actually thought Sid was asking perfectly reasonable questions, although I admit to being far from an expert on the subject matter of this thread. Attaching labels, especially one as odious as this, serves to deny the recipient credibility and a legitimate voice in the debate. This happens in the mainstream media but shouldn't happen here, imo. You can always debate the issues without throwing the labels around.
2nd edit - typo
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On Mobile Gas vans Sid, see: http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas...mbers_vans.html
Delightful contraptions that housed a handful of "undesirables" who were driven around on an "outing" but didn't return on an "ining" due to the fact that the vans exhaust fumes were fed back into the rear compartment and the occupants gassed to death.
In case you hadn’t picked up on it Sid is our friendly neighborhood Holocaust denier (and Hitler apologist). There was no genocide he insists just some unfortunate deaths due to disease despite the best efforts of the humanitarian staffs at the concentration camps. Auschwitz had a swimming pool. The Shoah was just a hoax to build sympathy for the creation of a Jewish state.
I assume he was “playing dumb” about the vans.
And in the interest of balance, it should also be noted that Len is our friendly neighborhood apologist for Israel and defender of official inquiries.
Think there was something fishy about the 9/11 enquiry? Forget it--Len's on the case and assures us that everything is above board and AOK.
Think the Zapruder film may have been altered? Stop being so damned stupid!
Think there's a bias towards Israel in the western media? Crazy talk--and you must be anti-Semitic.
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Sorry--double post.
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According to this site, Druitt had previously studied as a doctor, before switching to the law.
It also claims that Druitt was seen alive on December 3, although there's no further details regarding the sighting.
http://www.accomodata.co.uk/suspects.htm
Who was Jack the Ripper?
The Police arrested many suspects.....but who was really guilty?
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The terror that befell London's Whitechapel district in the Autumn months of 1888 remains unparalleled in the annals of crime. Jack the Ripper, a faceless predator whose infamy and guile would be renowned and feared to this day, has become virtual folklore to the people of the East End. More than a century has passed since Jack the Ripper stalked the fog filled, cobbled streets of London, but still latter day detectives continue to speculate as to the identity of the notorious "Whitechapel Murderer". Only a few clues were ever unearthed by the bewildered Police Force of the 1880's, further whetting the appetites of present day theorists in their quest for the "Mysterious Monster". At the time of the murders, detectives had never before experienced the apparently motiveless brutality of the world's first serial killer. The increasingly frustrated Police Force, pressured by an angry public and QUEEN VICTORIA herself, were to arrest several suspects on flimsy evidence, only to have these lowly scapegoats committed to,lunatic asylums, in a pathetic attempt to rid the streets of the dark assailant. No-one was above suspicion...SIR CHARLES WARREN, Chief of Metropolitan Police, was to be suspected of his involvement in a "cover up" and even Queen Victoria's own grandson PRINCE EDWARD, was at one stage considered to be a "Ripper Suspect". Although time has allowed hindsight, and numerous suspects have been presented, many are too ridiculous to be considered a viable culprit. The prime suspects who are still to this day eligible for the title of "Jack the Ripper" are as follows.......................
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Francis Thompson 1894
The book "Jack the Ripper" reveals the British Poet Francis Thompson to be the culprit responsible for the terrible murders in 1888 of at least five women prostitutes in London's East End. Visit the web site to read/buy the book.
Illustrated and of 18,500 words Jack the Ripper explains Thompson's violent childhood his doomed medical school training and his downward drug induced spiral into vagrancy. Describing Thompson's secret affair with a prostitute and its tragic ending bringing him to a frenzied delirium Jack the Ripper records the events of the murders and its sinister parallels to Thompson. Who was the Ripper?. What was his motive?. How did he get away with murder? Patterson's book Jack the Ripper answers all these questions and for the first time gives readers an insight into the diabolical mind of the world's first and most feared serial killer. Jack the Ripper examines Thompson's morbid verse and entwines Thompson's life with the destiny of leading writers including Robert Browning, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw, and D.H Lawrence.
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JOHN PIZER
John Pizer was a shoemaker, a Jew who just happened to fulfil the public's view of the Murderer's profile, that being of a butcher, slaughterman or craftsman - a man with access to 5 inch blades and in possession of a leather apron. Pizer not only had a stabbing convictions against him, but also displayed a well known dislike for prostitutes. He unfortunately fitted a dubious description which had been circulated; that of a short man with a dark beard and moustache and a foreign accent. Furthermore the press portrayed Pizer as having a "cruel sardonic look". However,Pizer's solid alibi ended with a compensation payment to him from the libel courts and the frustrated Police Force left once again to chase the shadows. After the death of Annie Chapman and a subsequent inquest, the findings in the pathologists report threw further light onto what was already becoming a very dark and grisly inquiry. The Coroner suggested that the murderer probably had an anatomical knowledge of dissection - this information heightened suspicions against members of the esteemed medical profession, an accusation angrily refuted by eminent surgeons to such an extreme that the Police dropped this line of enquiry. However, 3 major suspects have since been disclosed based upon this assumption............
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THOMAS NEIL CREAM, am American doctor
THOMAS CREAM had also ben arrested in connection with the poisoning of prostitutes and habitually writing to the Police giving false names and false accusations of a number of crimes. Cream was hanged by the neck for the murder of the Lambeth prostitutes in 1892. His departing words were......" I am jack the Ri...." as the rope snapped taut and broke his neck. Suspicions of Cream were raised following revelations that an American had been making enquiries as to the availability of certain organs at medical schools in and around the Whitechapel district. Coupled with this, the letter received by the Police prior to the double killings of Liz Stride and Kate Eddowes notably contained many "Americanisms".Unfortunately however, Cream was actually incarcerated at the time of the last Murders.
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MICHAEL OSTROGG, a Russian doctor
Michael Ostrogg has came under scrutiny by the London Police and his whereabouts at the time of the Whitechapel Murders could never be satisfactorily accounted for. Ostrogg was a slippery confidence trickster who went by the numerous aliases, including that of a Dr. Grant, and also as a former surgeon in the Russian Navy. He spent much of his time in Police custody for various fraudulent and thieving offences. Clearly a compulsive rouge, Ostrogg became a high profile suspect when it was stated in the "Police Gazette" around the time of the Murders that "special attention is called to this dangerous man", after failing to report to the Police on charges of suspicion.
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ALEXANDER PEDACHENKO, another Russian Doctor
Another Russian Doctor, ALEXANDER PEDACHENKO was tenuously linked at this time to the murders and it was suggested that "Ostrogg" was one of the many aliases used by Pedachenko. He was considered a Russian lunatic, with distinct criminal tendencies, who had trained as a barbers surgeon and he had since joined the staff of the Maternity Hospital. The Russian Secret Police Gazette, OCHRANA, described Pedachenko as "the greatest and boldest of all Russian criminal lunatics" at at time when Pedachenko was allegedly living with his sister in Walworth. Ochrana cited Pedachenko with the Ripper murders in an attempt to discredit and embarrass the Metropolitan Police. This act of propaganda appeared to have succeeded when Sir Charles Warren resigned from the Police Force. Pedachenko was subsequently smuggled back to Moscow by Ochrana, where he was promptly sent to a lunatic asylum for the murder of a woman in St Petersburg. Pedachenko died in the asylum leaving a series of aliases in his wake, but all with slim connections to the Whitechapel murders. It seems he was merely a suspect of convenience for a short time.
The 3 Doctors theories are questionable especially with regard to the first "Jack The Ripper" letter which states in the footnote "Ha,Ha, they say I am a Doctors now!" Probably the most "romantic" suspects have been "PRINCE EDDIE", the Queen's Grandson, and SIR WILLIAM GULL, the Royal Physician. Suspicions were heightened for both the suspects following the night of the double murders in Whitechapel. SIR CHARLES WARREN had ordered the removal of the writing from the wall before Police photographers could record it, which led to many theorists believing that there was a "cover up" by the authorities to protect someone of great importance. This, coupled with Queen Victoria's heightened interest in the case led to the inevitable accusations. "Jack The Ripper" was fast becoming the most celebrated mystery worldwide, and for Royalty to have been involved made for the most sensational storyline for the newspapers.
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PRINCE ALBERT VICTOR - THE DUKE OF CLARENCE
Prince Albert was believed to have made twilight trips to the East End to undulge in homosexual practices in a brothel in Cleveland Street. He had supposedly learned disembowelling techniques on deer hunting excursions and was alleged to have had "syphilis of the brain" thus making him mad enough to commit the Murders. The late crime theorist Stephen Knight claimed that "Prince Eddie" secretly and illegally married Annie Crook, a Catholic girl. Subsequently, to avoid a Royal scandal, the authorities had Annie locked away in a lunatic asylum. She was supposedly pregnant at the time. The key victim to link Royalty with the murders was Mary Kelly, who was evidently nursemaid to the prince and his wife at around this time. She had proposed to blackmail the government by making her story public knowledge. It was then that the Royal Physician, WILLIAM GULL, allegedly became involved and in an attempt to silence the scandal picked up all possible prostitutes whom Mary Kelly may have informed. He was to pick the women up in the Royal carriage, slaughter them inside the carriage, and then dispose of the body, hence explaining the lack of noise and blood at the scene of the murders. The Royal theories are based largely on conjecture and have only come to light in recent years.
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AARON KOSMINSKI - a Jew
The "JUWES" writing however led to another Jewish suspect. Warren had ordered the removal of the writing so as to avoid an uprising from the already agitated immigrant population especially with the false arrest of Pizer still fresh in the mind.
Despite this, a Polish Jew AARON KOSMINSKI, a hairdresser and resident of Whitechapel since 1882, came to the fore. A man with an extreme hatred of women, especially prostitutes, he was clearly the most insane of all the suspects. Kosminski was described as having strong homicidal tendencies and a history of related crimes. Following the night of the double killings, a letter was received by George Lusk, leader of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, stating that the writer had fried and eaten half a kidney, removed from the body of Kate Eddowes. Clearly this man was deranged. The uneaten half of the kidney accompanied the letter in a box. The organ was found to be human and belonged to a woman in her forties suffering from Brights disease - as did Catherine Eddowes. However, the style of writing did not in any way resemble the first "Jack The Ripper" letter received by the police, and was concluded to be the crazed writings of a lunatic. Kosminski was therefore high profile. It was never proven that Kosminski was the perpetrator of these ghastly crimes but he was removed from society in 1890, and placed in the Mile End Infirmary for the insane. Following spells in Colney Hatch and Leaversden Asylums, Kosminski degenerated to the point where he was unable to answer simple questions. He died in 1919 of gangrene of the leg and was medically described as "demented and incoherent".
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MONTAGUE JOHN DRUITT
Montague John Druitt was a "gentleman", a successful college debater, keen cricketer and of "good family". It wasn't until 1959 that Druitt, a schoolmaster, was pronounced a probable suspect. Sir Melville Macnaghten's case notes described Druitt as "sexually insane" and it was mooted that even "his own family suspected him of being the Whitechapel Murderer". Druitt's personal circumstances link him with the killings too. He had studied medicine for a time before switching profession to become a barrister and was a very educated man. Any barrister would appreciate the need for a suspect to be well away from the scene of the crime if his case were to be defended with success. Druitt was found playing cricket as far away as Dorset in South West England after the murders of Mary Nichols and Annie Chapman, although his whereabouts in the actual nights of the murders remain unresolved. The primary reason for Druitt becoming a high profile suspect was that he feared he was going insane like his mother before him, In a suicide note Druitt wrote "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like Mother and the best thing for me was to die". The note was discovered on his person on 31st December 1888. He had drowned in the River Thames, his pockets full of stones. Druitt was seen alive on 3rd December, 1888, almost one month after the last Murder and 2 days after his dismissal from his teaching job in Blackheath. Druitt's death remains a mystery, as does his alleged connection with the Ripper Case. It is true , however, that the Police closed the Ripper file following Druitt's suicide. The dreadful killings perpetrated by "Jack The Ripper" were never repeated beyond Druitt's death. Was this coincidence or conjecture?
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Mark and David, thanks for playing.
Here is what McNaughton actually had to say about MJD in his Memoranda.
" Mr MJ Druitt, a Doctor" (as he cant even get his profession right it doesn't bode well for the outcome....)" Of about 41 years of age",( ding, wrong again, he was 31, good start for a perfectionist) " and from a fairly good family, who disappeared at the same time as the Millers court murder" (conjecture, he may have gone in the thames before, or after Millers Court) "And who's body was found floating in the Thames on 31st of December" (Thats seven weeks after said murder) "The body was said to have been in the river for a month, or possibly more" (Hmm, do I detect straw clutching) "From private information I have little doubt that but that his own Family suspected him of being the Whitechapel murderer"( well yes, names, dates, and what was actually said, along with why they believed him to be the Ripper would come in handy, but Mcnaughton, and said Family members are now silent) " It was alleged" (By whom pray) "That he was sexually insane" (Victorian code for Homosexual.)
Many of the Police who worked on the case claimed, after the fact, that they knew who the Ripper was, including Insp Abberline, Chief insp Swanson and the Cities Major Smith, So Mcnaughtons claim is nothing unusual.
He also names Kosminski, and "Mad Russian" M Ostrog, In A refertation of the theory printed in the newspaper the Sun, that Thomas Cutbush was the Whitechapel killer...Pretty thin stuff if you ask me.
Steve and David,
It's very disappointing that McNaughten never kept the notes of the 'private information' he recieved which indicated that Druitt was JTR.
The issue of aid to the East End of London being stood down by the authorities in December 1888 seems to indicate that the police knew by then that the Ripper was no longer a threat. How embarrassing would it have been had the Ripper struck again in, say, the first weeks of January after the extra manpower had been cancelled? Do you think this is a relevant factor or am I reading too much into it?
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FWIW, the Channel Nine cricket statistician who showed such a keen interest in the Ripper case was a fellow called Irving Rosenwater.
Because Ripperologists had raised the point that Druitt's cricket schedule precluded him from being at some of the Whitechapel murder scenes, Rosenwater put on his statistician's hat and went to work. I guess he researched the London train timetables for 1888. In any case, he was certain that Druitt could have been at all the murder scenes in plenty of time.
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They are, to be blunt, a corporate motivated platform for corporate motivated advertising.
Well put.
The worst aspect of the mainstream media in its present form is that it is wilfully distorting the truth concerning historical events like JFK's assassination, while at the same time denying the public its rightful role in shaping the course of history---all because of the stinking corporate oligarchy it serves.
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I also wonder why McNaughten fingered Druitt.
McNaughten, of irish descent, was an empire man through and through and recently back from a very long stint running the East India Company. In other words, very highly connected. I read that he was a Knight of St. John although that was not listed on his Wikipedia entry (which I can no longer find), but the connection to KstJ was made from an old photograph showing him wearing his award. The Order of KstJ has it's own Masonic lodge called Prior Walter.
McNaughten is not likely to have arrived at his conclusion lightly.
That is not to say Montague Druitt did it (or as it was once rendered to me -- Monta-Cu Druid). There may be other factors that haven't been considered in any great detail.
Meanwhile Steve, anything on the more bizarre 1888-1988 Isle of Dogs/apocalypse angle to Ripper?
David,
Given what you have told us about McNaughten's background I agree that he wouldn't have reached his conclusion lightly. The only alternative I can see is that he might have been trying to divert attention from the real suspect(s), but I can't see why he would do this.
Another thing which points to Druitt is that the police reinforcements were all pulled out at Christmas, 1888, only six weeks after Miller's Court and at about the same time Druitt's body was fished out of the Thames. This is strange, given that the fear of the Ripper was still at fever pitch as far as I know. Another suspect, Kosminski, was admitted to a mental asylum but I think that was in 1889.
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Abberline's contemporary opinion.
"What does this story amount to? simply this. Soon after the last murder in Whitechapel the body of a young Doctor(sic) was found in the Thames, but there is nothing beyond the fact that he was found at that time to incriminate him. A report was made to the Home Office about the matter, but no further action was deemed neccessary."
Abberline is incorrect in naming Druitt as a (student) Doctor, but his initials, MD, might have accounted for this confusion.
Named in the McNaughten memoranda, this suspect was also known by journalist George Sims, both men suggested that Druitt had been the Whitechapel murderer. Druitt was educated at Winchester and Oxford, and was called to the Bar in 1882, he was found drowned on 1st December 1888. a verdict of suicide was returned by the Coroner's inquest.
Druitt had been teaching at a School until late November when he was dismissed for a "serious offence" a train ticket found in his pocket suggests that he may have made his last journey on, or around the first of December. He left a message addressed to his Brother saying that " Since Friday" he felt that he was going to become like Mother, who had been commited to a London asylum in July of 1888. His maternal Grandmother had commited suicide, as would his Sister three years later.
Druitt was obviously depressed, and may have haboured secrets about his sexual orientation (he may have been dismissed from the School for having a homosexual relationship) But, beyond McNaughton and Sims there is nothing to link him to any of the murders, in fact on several of the actual days he had been playing criket miles from London. IMO a highly unlikely suspect.
Steve,
I can't understand why so many researchers regularly dismiss Druitt, citing that there is nothing to link him to the murders. If there was nothing to link him to the murders, why did McNaughten mention him at all?
Didn't McNaughten disclose that he had recieved 'private information' (apparently from a Druitt relative) that Druitt was the Ripper? The fact that Druitt was a barrister--not a doctor--doesn't necessarily get him off the hook, imo. His brother was a doctor so he may have obtained rudimentary knowledge of surgical procedures from him. Also, his lodgings (at King's Bench Walk, from memory) were within close walking distance of the crime scenes.
Moreover, the chronological sequence of events implicates him:
July, 1888: Druitt's mother, to whom he is strongly devoted, is institutionalised.
August, 1888: Ripper murders begin.
November 8, 1888: The final murder in the series takes place.
Mid to late November, 1888: Druitt commits suicide--body found on December the first.
It all fits quite nicely. I believe that his motive may have been anger at his mother's declining mental state and the desire to seek vengence on prostitutes. The Yorkshire Ripper, Peter Sutcliffe, had a motive not that dissimilar. I believe he stated that because his wife was unable to concieve, he took his frustration out on prostitutes, whom he considered to be corrupted beyond redemption, but by a cruel twist of fate where still able to give birth--unlike his wife.
Druitt was indeed playing cricket at times which closely correlate to some of the murders. On September 8, he played for Blackheath againnst the Brothers Christopherson (a cricket team comprised entirely of players with the surname Christopherson), in which he scored 2 runs and took three wickets:
http://www1.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1880S/..._08SEP1888.html
The following night Annie Chapman was murdered in Hanbury Street. Could Druitt have made it from Blackheath to Whitechapel in time? According to the then cricket statistician for Australia's Nine Network cricket commentary team the answer is yes. I can't remember the guy's name, although it was an unusual name, but I do remember, about twenty years ago, the peaceful reverie of a dull cricket match being briefly interrupted by an explanation of how Druitt could have made it to the murder scene quite easily.
Ronald Reagan and the JFK Assassination Cover-Up
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Mark Stapleton
Interesting. Leads one to suspect that those who aspire to and achieve the highest office in the US are told, tactfully, that the Dallas issue is not open for discussion--Presidents included. Those who aspired and failed would also been have told the facts of life, had they been successful.