Peter Fokes

It has been said that the Secret Service while in Ft. Worth broke protocol and had a drinking binge into the wee hours at a club in downtown Cowtown called the Cellar. I'm trying to gather some information, be it anecdotal, about that night. Who was there? Who was working the Cellar that night? Who were the regular employees at that time? Was there live music, if so, who played? What kind of music did they play--it was supposedly a rock n' roll club, right? Any other performers, if so who, what did they perform? What did it look like inside, and outside? All in all, this was a very strange place to take the SS--what with it's reputation for lewdness, etc., wasn't it? Who arranged this? Did Ruby/Marcello have some connection to this venue? Were there women there with the SS--were they honey-traps of sorts?

from:

http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum...ic=991&st=0

A downtown bar called "The Cellar" became very infamous back in the 60's when JFK's Secret Service body guards drank there till dawn the night before he was killed in Dallas. The Cellar was the home of Ft Worth counter culture and rock music scene until the mid seventies when the FW police dept. decided it was time to crack down on the goings on at the club. constant harrassment the local federales ran off the customers and the owner (Pat Kirkwood) was forced to shut the doors in the mid-seventies.

Here's a link to part of the Warren Report that talks about the cellar.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...H18_CE_1020.pdf

If anyone has any further information or stories to tell, please do...

A fellow named Arvel Jr. Stricklin claims he was at the Cellar that night.

"Many people have heard the Cellar name in connection with the Kennedy Secret Service agents. I was there that night, and also a few nights previous when an NBC camera crew did some filming there. If you've seen a 6-part documentary titled "The Men Who Killed Kennedy", You've seen me. I am the guitar player you saw for 3 or 4 seconds as the camera panned past the Bandstand. (along with, on bass, CB Oliver; on drums, Felix Vasquez)"

See:

http://www.arvel.com/cellarstory.html

His email is published on the site. No idea if it is a working email.

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

In the new Dick Russell book there is a reference to something called ZR/ALERT that Angleton had a finger in. It is interesting how it comes up in this

CIA memo, given the Blakey was very cooperative with the CIA. Someone felt that he should not be caught off guard, while at the same time insisting that it was not relevent to the HSCA investigation. It also seems interesting that the program mentioned seems connected to Mexico City.

A paper co-authored by Heath, Silva, and a few others, and published in Comprehensive Psychiatry 1960, was titled: "Comparative

Effects of the Adinistration of taraxein,d-LSD, Mescaline, and Psilocybin to Human Volunteers." The Introduction stated, "The patient

donors are housed in a special Tulane University Research Unit at the East Louisiana State Hospital,Jackson." The experiments were

sponsored by a grant from the Commonwealth Fund, later indentified as having also been a CIA front.

In 1999, the CIA released a memorandum generated more than twenty years earlier. It pertained to "Recent Discovery of Project

ZR/ALERT Documents--A Study of the Use of Psychological Programming for Intelligence Purposes." Project ZR/ALERT, according to

to the memo, concerned "exploration and experiments by the CI staff of the use of hypnotism in certain operational situations." CI

referred to Counterintelligence, the Agency branch run by James Angleton.

The memo, generated by Bruce T. Johnson for CIA General Counsel Emile L. Julian, went on to say special handling of the documents

from Mexico City is called for, I believe.... The events described in these documents took place in the Summer of 1963, a period in the

life of the Mexico City Station which is of intense interest to the HSCA.

It was suggested that since the documents "have no bearing upon the investigations" of the HSCA, its Chief Counsel its Chief Counsel,

Bob Blakey should be allowed to review them in order to "dispel concerns"

130 ZR/ALERT:CIA "Memorandum for:Gneral Counsel, Attention: Emile L. Julian," May 17 1978 (www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docid=26123&relPageID=2)

The previous post is of immense value in my opinion, but I would like to mention something I just discovered. There is at mary ferrell's website a HSCA Files section, which mentions Thomas R. Peasner.

What is unusual about the document I was viewing, is that not only is a page missing, "withdrawn from the JFK Collection," it states, but the only page viewable is dated from June 1953, the document gives the appearance that Thomas R. Pearson was of interest because, if I am getting this straight, he was a POW held by the Chinese Communists.

....What makes this so strange is I was googling the name, when I saw that Peter Fokes has an alt.assassination.jfk post on him with the title

"Carousel Club Pianist Disappeared After Buying Rifle in 11/63," citing documents on maryferrell.org and Warren Commission CD 736.

See

Carousel Club Pianist Disappeared After Buying Rifle in 11/63?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...7aaacf6e16?lnk=

Seems mildly interesting, to say the least...

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1269

This is the link to the segment on Peasner in WCD 736

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=353807

PEASNER, THOMAS R.

Sources: CD 736, p. 44

Mary's

Comments: Former pianist at Carousel who had just left employment. On 11/9/63, he bought .22 caliber automatic Browning rifle SW R706898 at Sears, Arlington, TX, for $75,99 with insufficient funds check on Republic National Bank. DOB: 10/19/29. 6'1" 140 lbs. Brown hair, blue eyes. Texas Drivers' License 0155824. Apparently this is Thomas R. Peasner, III. A Thomas R. Peasner, Jr., died Fri, Oct 2, 1970. Survived by son Thomas R. Peasner, III.

There are 38 hits under Peasner at NARA.

http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/25790/jfksnew.txt

Personally, I feel a little bit strange that I have never heard of this. There were several newspaper articles concerning him circa 1953, evidently he participated in radio broadcasts to stateside, wishing his family a Merry Christmas. He graduated from Crozier Tech., before the war in Korea.

FYI

The grandson of Thomas Peasner Jr. submitted a few posts to alt.assassination.jfk. He wrote:

"The son, Thomas Rodman Peasner, III was my father. He was not

affiliated with Jack Ruby in any way, aside from knowing that his

father Thomas Rodman Peasner, Jr. played piano in Jack Ruby's bar and

sometimes played poker with him (Jr, not the third). My father has

said he was young when this occured and that he didn't know anything

more."

In another post, he wrote: "Reading that he bought a gun for Jack Ruby and

disappeared is news to me. I can see it happening, though. I can't see

him being a gunman. My father said his father played poker with Ruby on

the weekends sometimes, but it could have been a cover. I think he saw

them in the house once, talking."

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

see for yourself:

www.youtube.com/dvp1122

Still up and running as far as I can tell.

See

http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidVonPein

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

... From They've Killed The President pages 31-32....

"Like many witnesses to the assassination, James Worrell was frightened, worried that perhaps the shooting was not over. He ran from Elm, where he had watched the motorcade, past the Depository onto Houston. He did not stop until he reached the corner of Pacific Street, a hundred yards from the Depository. As he paused to catch his breath, he saw a man burst from the back door of the Depository. From where Worrell stood the man seemed to be young, dark-haired, medium height and build, wearing light pants and a dark sports jacket. That was all Worrell could see. The man was running away."

After I wrote this, I just discovered that Anson's reference is WCH 16 H 959

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=138627

Worrell's description, its an affadavit; is actually a little more specific....

height 5'8 to 5'10, no hat, nothing in hands....

It is also kind of obvious, but WCD 1035 does not mention either of these two men getting into a car, ie the Rambler......

Dickey Worrell's time and distance estimates were all out of whack. Check his testimony to see how long (or short) it was between various events, and it's obvious that he could not keep track of time ... or worse.

The same is true of his distance estimates; see where he estimated that the limousine passed as much as 50, 75 or 100 yards in front of him ... as he stood near the southeast corner of the TSBD directly under the "sniper's nest" window. A football field's-length away? We all know better than that.

The TSBD building measures only 100' x 100' on the inside, thus if Worrell was "a hundred yards from the Depository," he was more than two blocks away. Pacific Street is directly behind the Dal-Tex Building, and would have run into the TSBD's loading dock if it continued west past Houston Street. "The corner of Pacific Street" and "a hundred yards from the Depository" has a twain that shall never meet.

More telling is the fact that a photograph was taken of that area of the TSBD moments before JFK was shot, and there is, unfortunately, nobody even remotely matching Worrell's description standing in that location.

In an article entitled "Imaginary Witness," published in Deep Politics Quarterly (January 2007?), I dissected Worrell's purported movements vis a vis the President's arrival, the motorcade's route, the bus schedule and the shooting. In it, I determined it was possible for Worrell to have been in DP at 12:30, but only if the bus he got on at Love was running 10 minutes or more late, and he knew exactly where he wanted to go after getting off the bus (and that after having crossed through the crowds on Main Street to get there, i.e., bypassed the obvious parade route).

Bottom line: Dickey most likely wasn't there.

Last question, regarding the initial seconds after the assassination...isn't it true that someone testified or stated in an affidavit that they witnessed someone running parallel to the south fence around the knoll, between it and the Western portion of the TSBD, also vanishing out of sight?

Actually, this is the story that Richard Carr told to Penn Jones, after having told something different to the FBI in 1964, and before having sworn to something different yet again during the Shaw trial in 1969.

Hi Duke,

If I recall, didn't Worrell claim he saw "fire" coming from the muzzle of the rifle?

How likely is that!

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

David R. Vonpein

Mooresville, IN

Please see:

http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindPerso...ocaltime=survey

Hi Antti,

Yes. It was a simple matter to find this name on the White Pages. I asked DVP last night on alt.assassination.jfk (before your post) whether he had ever been to Mooresville. :-)

But DVP hasn't been hiding that location. It is included in many of his Amazon reviews. Just do a search.

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

A researcher has asked for information on David Von Pein.

Not much info on David Von Pein, but he seems to have launched a You tube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/DavidVonPein

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8082603493.html

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

CIA agent was hero at Bay of Pigs

A decorated war hero, Gray Lynch was embraced by veterans of the Bay

of Pigs invasion as one of their own.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/c...ory/646176.html

See also:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKlynchG.htm

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

<snip>

Thanks to John for such a fantastic resource in developing this research and also to James for photos, Bill for support and Peter Fokes who first pointed out the "Richard Helms lookalike" in the footage.

All the best,

Shane

Thank you, Shane.

You certainly have provoked a great deal of discussion with your book and DVD.

I would imagine you have responded to comments by Mel Ayton and Jefferson Morley in some forum or other. However, I am woefully busy and have not kept up with the discussions.

Besides the "Helms look-a-like", I did discover -- as Ayton has noted -- an image of the polka dot lady in the pantry area, as well as several images of a "Sirhan Sirhan look-a-like" standing next to a woman in a black dress with white spots. (See thread on this forum from earlier date.)

Looking forward to reading your book and watching the DVD.

Regards,

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

Robert Kennedy Jr. interviewed Bugliosi recently. The topic: Bugliosi's Bush book.

Here is the mp3:

http://www.radiodujour.com/people/bugliosi...entbugliosi.mp3

IF this link has been posted on your forum previously, excuse me.

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

Thanks, Frank.

I wondered who that fellow was.

Now I know.

Regards.

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

GS "This is Gary Smith, It's the afternoon of June 8th, three days after the fatal shooting of Senator Robert Kennedy at the Ambassador Hotel, here in Los Angeles. Four men subdued Sirhan Sirhan, after the shooting in the hallway outside the Grand Ballroom, of the Ambassador Hotel. Here with his live account of what happened that evening, is Joe LaHive. Joe, exactly where were you when you heard the first shot and then what happened after that?

JL "Well the shooting took place in a corridor leading to the kitchen behind the Embassy Ballroom of the Ambassador Hotel. I was standing at the foot of the stairs, behind the stage, waiting for the Senator and his party to descend, and make his way to his elevator, to the elevator, to the ballroom below, where another crowd was waiting to hear his victory speech."

"The Senator turned in a different direction, and came through the back of the stage to my left instead of to my right. I was standing with my companion, Esty Duffy, and Cap Hardy, a friend of mine, in the back of the stage, and he passed to our left with his entourage, which included Roosevelt Greer, Rafer Johnson, George Plimpton, Jesse Unruh. I spoke very briefly, to the party, Tony Bielenson was in front of the Senator, and I had just complemented him on his race for Senator. They proceeded through the double doors in front of us, and as I turned to speak to my friend, Mrs. Duffy; a surge of shots rang out... and a few screams; at that moment... I instantly seemed to sense that this was not firecrackers or balloons. And I pushed myself forward through the crowd past the television camera, held by an ABC man, and taking a quick look at the first person I saw lying on the floor, which proved later to be Paul Schrade, it seemed to me it was Steve Smith, the girl who was injured came running past me, being assisted as she subsequently proved to be Mrs. Evans... and her... was screaming myself 'Oh, God...no, no please don't let it be...' something of that nature. Looking at the next person on the floor, sprawled, just as he seemed to strike the floor, I noted immediately that it was... the Senator.

His eyes were staring, straight at the ceiling. His mouth was open, but not as though he was about to speak. It was at that moment, almost total immobility; the blood was spurting into a pool behind his right ear. The moment was stark, and... what seemed to be eerie lighting, 'cause darkness was around us except for bright lights from the photographers, television cameras, picking up the light blueness of the Senator's eyes. Giving it a ghastly white, ghostlike look; which conveyed to me a feeling of death immediately.

I didn't hesitate at the Senator, because a struggle was ensuing ahead of me with the assailant. First person I noted beside me was Rosie Greer, and another man that I later have had identified as George Plimpton. The assistant maitre'd of the hotel was also in the rush toward the assailant, and at that moment our concentration was on the gun which was being pushed toward the metal serving table. And about six of us had our hands clamped on that gun one way or the other."

Frank,

The newly released photograph taken by LAFD's Burba shows only the hands of Plimpton and Uecker on Sirhan Sirhan. Uecker seems to grasping Sirhan's hand and pistol. Perhaps the others arrived moments.

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

Gary Smith is unknown at this time and a search of Los Angeles area radio announcers of the period has not brought an identity. Though the tape sounds to be a live radio interview, on the tape there is no radio station ID, no introduction, and the "tossback'" does not reveal a second announcer's voice. It is possible the tape was not recorded live, but done on tape to be used later in an "as live" situation; keeping in mind, as live was not common in those days, and is now more associated with television than radio. Another possibility is that this is a field recording made for a college radio station; perhaps Los Angeles City College, or Cal State Northridge; at that time (San Fernando) Valley State College. It is also possible that Joe LaHive wanted to have his interview recorded for future use by a radio station. Gary Smith may have been a media connected friend.

Joe LaHive's statement, "...there was another assailant that had taken off in the direction of the main hallway..", must be taken as accurate insofar as his use of the word "hallway". It would seem he was saying the main ballroom, or the Embassy Ballroom, but he used the word "hallway". Joe was intimately familiar with the grounds and layout of the Ambassador, as the hotel; it's bars and restaurants, were Joe's steady clients in his employ with Seagrams. Esty LaHive told me that with the crush of people in attendance that night, Joe's knowledge of the back corridors and stairways was what got them in close proximity in their quest to congratulate Senator Kennedy.

Frank Caramelli

April, 2008

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24990389/

Maybe just given the date too many are trying to access the site, but I was unable to get the other photos to load. I'd appreciate if anyone spots one of significance to the events of the shooting to post them.

Hi Peter,

Try this link instead:

http://www.knbc.com/slideshow/16512045/det...de=0&taf=la

The man to Sirhan's right is George Plimpton. I assume the fellow on his left is Karl Uecker.

Plimpton is often overlooked in descriptions of the event.

Moldea wrote:

"Uecker pinned Sirhan against the steam table, stopping his forward motion.

Sirhan then pulled his revolver from his pants and opened fire, drawing the attention of nearly everyone in the pantry."

He also wrote:

"Simply speaking, I believe that the kinetic movement of the crowd trapped Kennedy against a steam table, which was bolted to the floor, as Sirhan, just inches away on the side of that same steam table, fired his weapon at him. Consistent with this, the last person to shake Kennedy's hand remembered seeing the senator lose his balance--while another eyewitness remembered seeing him "jerk a little bit, like backwards and then forwards."

In this photo, we see Plimpton and Uecker pinning Sirhan against the steam table. The end of the gun barrel is visible.

RFK is lying on the floor .... but where in relation to this photo?

Here is a link to the pdf version of the May-June 2008 issue of the Los Angeles Firefighters newsletter. LAFD photographer Harold Burba

is directly in the line of fire "while the gun is being taken from Sirhan's grip."

http://www.knbc.com/download/2008/0605/16511867.pdf

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

Excellent "pdf" shows the location of various people in the pantry. The pdf can be found at

http://www.sirhansresearcher.com/Diagram%2...0Researcher.pdf

Grid prepared by Rose Lynn Magnan.

Kennedy would be lying on floor to the left of Uecker (to the west).

The pdf is one of the pages at the website, http://www.sirhansresearcher.com/ .

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24990389/

Maybe just given the date too many are trying to access the site, but I was unable to get the other photos to load. I'd appreciate if anyone spots one of significance to the events of the shooting to post them.

Hi Peter,

Try this link instead:

http://www.knbc.com/slideshow/16512045/det...de=0&taf=la

The man to Sirhan's right is George Plimpton. I assume the fellow on his left is Karl Uecker.

Plimpton is often overlooked in descriptions of the event.

Moldea wrote:

"Uecker pinned Sirhan against the steam table, stopping his forward motion.

Sirhan then pulled his revolver from his pants and opened fire, drawing the attention of nearly everyone in the pantry."

He also wrote:

"Simply speaking, I believe that the kinetic movement of the crowd trapped Kennedy against a steam table, which was bolted to the floor, as Sirhan, just inches away on the side of that same steam table, fired his weapon at him. Consistent with this, the last person to shake Kennedy's hand remembered seeing the senator lose his balance--while another eyewitness remembered seeing him "jerk a little bit, like backwards and then forwards."

In this photo, we see Plimpton and Uecker pinning Sirhan against the steam table. The end of the gun barrel is visible.

RFK is lying on the floor .... but where in relation to this photo?

Here is a link to the pdf version of the May-June 2008 issue of the Los Angeles Firefighters newsletter. LAFD photographer Harold Burba

is directly in the line of fire "while the gun is being taken from Sirhan's grip."

http://www.knbc.com/download/2008/0605/16511867.pdf

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

<quote on>

Denise Ryan, Canwest News Service Published: Friday, February 15,

2008

VANCOUVER -- A Bush has come forward in defence of a possible Kennedy.

Sharon Bush, the former wife of President George W. Bush's brother

Neil Bush and a close friend of Jack Worthington, has come forward

exclusively to the Vancouver Sun to speak on his behalf.

"He is a fine man, highly ethical, a man of high integrity," Ms. Bush

said about Worthington, rumoured to be John F. Kennedy's illegitimate

son, in an interview Thursday.

Ms. Bush said she decided to speak out after a British tabloid claimed

Mr. Worthington once tried to flog a book about being an illegitimate

Kennedy offspring and may not be who he claims.

The tabloid is also claiming that Texas birth records show Mr.

Worthington was born in January 1961 -- not, as Mr. Worthington says,

on Nov. 22, two years to the day before John F. Kennedy's

assassination.

It's just the sort of journalistic "blood sport" Mr. Worthington

wanted to avoid.

Worthington stated simply Thursday that his birth date is a matter of

public record. He also revealed that his sister was born on June 6,

1965, three years to the day before the assassination of Robert F.

Kennedy.

Mr. Worthington vehemently denied having ever written, or spoken

publicly, about his possible connection to the Kennedy family.

"It's outrageous. Vanity Fair approached me. They had to woo me for

over six months to work with them on their story, and I only

co-operated on their assurances that my anonymity would be protected."

Mr. Worthington, who moved to the Vancouver area nine months ago, said

he is reeling from the attention his story is getting in the world

media. He plans to come forward soon in an interview with a major U.S.

network to "clear the air."

<quote off>

Full story here:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=311294

Regards

Peter Fokes

I became a fan of Mae's while putting together Penn's TCI newsletter for three years.

Penn was in frequent contact with her and we published many of her articles. John

Judge is the most prominent of Mae's Brussell Sprouts.

Mae phoned me once in the late 70s to compliment me on my research. Even though

Jewish, she also sent me a Christmas card. Unfortunately I never met her nor heard

any of her radio shows.

She was perhaps the most perceptive of early researchers in trying to make sense

of the mountain of information she gathered. I believe that her outspokenness got

her eliminated.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Jack

Jack, I too suspect foul play in her death and the mysterious things that happened upon her death [house accross street, which she suspected was monitoring her, burned down - and other things].

Mae was way ahead of her time and got so many things right or nearly so. A very few of her notions are hard to give full credulity to, but no one is perfect. Her track record stands as testimony to her perception and tenacity. Her 'batting average' is IMO at the top of the rankings. I used to love to hear her tapes of the radio shows and were an awakening to me.

Her 'Nazi Connections

To the JFK Assassination' hit me like a lightning bolt when I read it. Alas, Mae is gone and it is sad there is no reserach center at this time. America and the World could use more noble private sleuths like Mae. The power structure feared her greatly...because she saw right through their lies, deceits and deceptions.

Speaking of first generation critics .....

I haven't seen her name mentioned in the Kelin book thread.

Peter Fokes

John wrote:

Subsequently there were meetings to the same end that included terrorists like Frank Sturgis, Howard Hunt, Orlando Piedra, Antonio (Tony) Cuesta, Eladio del Valle, Joaquín Sanjenis, Manuel Artime, Orlando Bosch, Antonio Veciano and... Luis Posada Carriles.

John, I would be interested in your basis for identifying each of the foregoing as "terrorists". Even if someone plotted the assassination of JFK, his participation in that act, standing alone, would make him an assassin but not a terrorist, at least by the commonly accepted meaning of that term.

Many people would find odd your characterization of Manuel Artime as a "terrorist" (unless I am missing something in Artime's background).

Do you really assert that each of the above names was a "terrorist"?

Well, the term "terrorist" does seem to apply to the last name on your list. See new information:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20071115/index.htm

<quote on>

Washington DC, November 15, 2007 - In the first Congressional hearing held on the controversial case of violent Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles, the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on International Organizations, Human Rights, and Oversight invited National Security Archive Senior Analyst Peter Kornbluh to testify on formerly top secret CIA and FBI intelligence reports linking Posada to the October 6, 1976 bombing of a Cuban civilian airliner. In his testimony, Kornbluh argued that the declassified records demonstrated that Posada had concrete foreknowledge of the bombing; was in possession of a surveillance report on Cuban targets that included the doomed plane; received coded messages immediately after the plane went into the ocean from the men who placed the bombs; and was quickly identified by multiple FBI and CIA sources in Venezuela as one of two masterminds of the attack that claimed the lives of all 73 passengers and crew.

Kornbluh called Posada “one of the most prolific purveyors of political violence in recent history” and said that the evidence in the plane bombing was “more than sufficient” to have detained Posada for acts of international terrorism under the Patriot Act. Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales refused to designate Posada as a terrorist and a judge dismissed immigration fraud charges against him last spring. Posada now lives freely in Miami, as does Orlando Bosch, who the CIA and FBI both identify as a co-conspirator in the plane bombing. “The United States now finds itself in the frankly inexplicable position of having not one but both men who our own intelligence agencies identified as responsible for bringing down a civilian airliner living free and unfettered lives in Florida,” Kornbluh told the Committee.

<quote off>

See documents provided at link above.

Regards

Peter Fokes

Ah yes.

One would not expect the CIA to shower praises on Weiner's book.

And what of this .... "The huge volume of material we have declassified ....."

Lovely. Now that a court has ordered the CIA to review its records on George Joannides, perhaps the agency will be able to ADD to that huge volume with some slender files on this "mysterious fella" -- to borrow a phrase from LBJ!

Regards and Happy Holidays

Peter Fokes

Legacy of Ashes is an important book imo, but folks who prefer not to stray too far from the topic of the assassination of JFK may find his in-depth examination of CIA flaws of little interest. His brief dissection of the reign of Porter Goss is revealing. Goss served as a hatchet man for Bush and made sure the Bush ideology was entrenched at all levels of the agency. It is amusing to see the CIA blamed for destruction of tapes when one can be fairly certain such an act was condoned by the Administration itself. It is frightening indeed to read how the agency is now merely an outcrop of the military. As Weiner notes: The Pentagon has crushed the agency, and Ike's nightmare has become a reality.

As for the assassination, Weiner seems to adopt the Helmsian view that, yes, there is doubt and such doubt might remain forever. In his view, the one slim prospect for discovery of a "smoking gun" - so to speak - might reside in secret files in Cuba or the Soviet Union.

On alt.assassination.jfk, we have been discussing Weiner's brief recounting of the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and the failure of NSA to make clear to LBJ that a communique has been misinterpreted. It was too late anyway. The bombs had started falling.

I'm afraid I do not agree with those researchers who simply want nothing to do with the book.

Regards

Peter Fokes

I find it interesting that Marina doesn't seem to want to have anything to do with the ring. Hmm.

Anyone notice the error in the article? Lee and Marina were married in April 1961, not 1960 as Aynesworth says. Just me being nitpicky, I guess...

Oh, and I agree with Mr. Ellis; I don't think the ring should be sold on eBay. It's of historical interest and should be in a museum so everyone can see it and not kept in some rich person's collection. Of course it really belongs to Marina and her daughters to do with as they see fit but I'd hate to see it bought and then locked away in some collector's safe deposit box.

Thank you for the link!

You are welcome.

As you mention, Marina is not interested in the ring.

That seems odd. You would think one of her children might want it as

a keepsake.

Robert Oswald's attitude seems at odds with Marina's apparent

indifference.

<quote on>

Marina said she wanted nothing to do with the newly discovered ring.

"If somebody has it, let them have it. I don't care," she said.

Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey's brother who is retired and lives in

Wichita Falls, said he would be pleased to examine the ring to make

sure it was his brother's.

"If the lawyer wants to send it to me, fine," he said. "If not, that's

fine also. But it should stay in the family."

<quote off>

"Stay" in the family?

Seems the ring has already "left" the family.

PF

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...ing.ce2890.html

<quote on>

No one sure who owns simple wedding band with complex past

03:53 PM CDT on Saturday, October 27, 2007

By HUGH AYNESWORTH / Special Contributor to The Dallas Morning News

FORT WORTH – A few years ago, a local lawyer noticed a cache of legal

papers in a seldom-used file area at his firm – a discovery that set

in motion a bizarre and intriguing connection to the day John F.

Kennedy was killed in Dallas.

Stuffed in with those legal documents was a small gold wedding band.

That ring almost assuredly was Lee Harvey Oswald's.

"I don't think anybody has any doubt about that," said Luke Ellis, one

of the partners at Brackett & Ellis.

<quote off>

For full article go to URL above.

Peter Fokes

Ron, I did ponder the resemblance to Pash but figured one comparison at a time. There is also that guy seen at Parkland with LBJ and Youngblood who resembles Pash.

Russ, thanks for the flipped image, much better.

Bill, Morales from what I can gather was in the 6' 2', maybe 6' 3" range.

Peter, I'm not sure what the time frame for the photograph would be but as an estimate, maybe 15 - 20 minutes after the shooting. Murray took the images of Buddy Walthers looking for something on the grass area ten minutes after the assassination so I guess we can work from there.

As to plotters being present at the scene, Morales wasn't known to anyone in the wider community and he was his own man at JM/WAVE. I have lots of stories of him exercising his autonomy - he was arrogant and feared no one.

Given that things were not going to plan post shooting, then I submit that the plotters were scrambling to get things back on track.

James

Hi James,

I didn't realize at the time of my first post on this thread that I was also referring to a Jim Murray photo.

See page 608 in Trask's Pictures of the Pain. The tall man in middle of photo at top of page is carrying a jacket with left hand behind his head and wrist pressed against his ear.

Sorry for delay.

Chow.

Peter Fokes

A tall man in a light suit jacket carrying an overcoat in his right hand walked from west to east across the knoll a short while after the assassination. A crowd had gathered on Elm by the time the man walked across the knoll. Folks were milling on and off the sidewalk on the west side of the sign. I believe they were gathered around a police motorcycle. I posted a cropped photo of him on alt.assassination.jfk years ago and will see if I can dig it up.

This is the only person I'm aware of who walked across the knoll as you describe with a jacket or coat in his hand. But he's clearly not the Morales lookalike being discussed.

Edit: The image is a bmp image, and I've been informed by the forum software that this extension is not allowed.

But trust me, it's not the same person.

Hi Ron,

Sorry for long delay! I cannot comment on your photo without seeing it.

The Jim Murray photo mentioned in my post is published on page 608 of Pictures of the Pain by Trask. The tall man is carrying a jacket in his right hand and his left arm is raised with his wrist against his left ear. The jacket appears to be darker than I remembered. You can see the crowd milling about on the Elm St. sidewalk.

Regards

Peter Fokes

This crop is from a Jim Murray photograph taken during the assassination aftermath. Check out the big guy in the center.

Unfortunately, the version I have of this photograph is not so great. Hopefully a forum member has a better quality copy.

James

Hi James,

A tall man in a light suit jacket carrying an overcoat in his right hand walked from west to east across the knoll a short while after the assassination. A crowd had gathered on Elm by the time the man walked across the knoll. Folks were milling on and off the sidewalk on the west side of the sign. I believe they were gathered around a police motorcycle. I posted a cropped photo of him on alt.assassination.jfk years ago and will see if I can dig it up. The man's short haircut, suitjacket and height remind me of this fellow. I'll try to find it. I'd also be delighted if someone who has photos of the crowd milling about near the motorcycle notice this man. He is to the left at a higher elevation than the other folks because he is walking by them up on the knoll. No one seemed to be paying any attention to him.

Do you have an estimate of the time when this photo with the look-alike Morales was taken?

Regards,

PF

Doug,

can I repost the above to alt.conspiracy.jfk/alt.assassination.jfk?

David Healy

Great Zapruder Film Hoax

Hi David,

I was about to ask Doug the same question. I hope he agrees.

Peter Fokes