Duke Lane

It is certainly interesting that the two Davis sisters, who said they heard the shots, saw the killer crossing their lawn, found two of the shells he discarded (which experts said were fired from Oswald's gun), and identified Oswald in a lineup as the man who crossed their lawn, had the same telephone number as a friend of Jack Ruby. I don't know what it means but I hate coincidences.

... In order to make sense of these clues, judicious speculation is in order. Since Leona was a photographer, she may have done some jobs for the Carousel Club. Perhaps the Davis sisters were seeking employment at the Carousel Club. Jack Ruby may have introduced them to Leona Miller to pose for pictures. When the Tippit murder was being planned, Ruby recruited the Davis sisters as planted witnesses who would give an officially approved version of how Tippit was killed. Leona Miller was the go-between in setting them up at the apartment near the corner of Tenth and Patton.

An explanation of the Tippit shooting as a well-planned ambush makes sense of the facts we have at hand. It certainly was not a random encounter between a police officer and a desperate fugitive, as Warren Commission proponents claim.

HI LEE,

I THINK I FOUND WORRELL.

GO TO; HTTP://JFKMURDERPHOTOS.BRAVEHOST.COM [Couch film]

THIS CLIP SHOWS THE MOTORCADE CLEARING ELM AND HOUSTON FROM THE SW CORNER OF HOUSTON AND ELM AND AS IT PANS TO THE RIGHT THERE IS A GUY HAULING ASS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE FRONT DOOR OF THE DEPOSITORY. I WOULD SAY HE IS WEARING A SPORT COAT OR SUIT COAT OR POSSIBLY A JACKET. WHILE EVERYONE ELSE IS LOOKING WEST ON ELM AND SOME STARTING TO MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION THIS GUY SEEMS TO BE RUNNING FOR HIS LIFE IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION WHICH, IN THE DIRECTION HE IS RUNNING WOULD TAKE HIM RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER OF THE DEPOSITORY JUST LIKE HE SAID HE DID.

THIS CLIP DOEN'T SHOW HIM GOING AROUND THE CORNER BECAUSE ITS NOT THAT LONG AND HE IS BEHIND ALOT OF THE CROWD FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF THE CAMERA. SOMEONE WITH BETTER EUIPMENT THAN I HAVE MAY BE ABLE TO BRING UP THIS MAN'S FEATURES TO SEE IF HE MIGHT BE OUR GUY.

GOOD HUNTING

JIM FEEMSTER

Moreover, a look at where Worrell "said he [was]" (CE360), he was in a position about midway between the corner of the building and the east side of the main entrance to the building. The man you're talking about ran 'way too many strides for much too long to cover that short of a distance.

One cannot arbitrarily select which parts of someone's recollections are correct and which are not. If there's good reason to think that he was somewhere other than where he said he was, what is it? What's the supporting evidence?

Unfortunately, what Worrell was wearing that day is not on record anywhere, so that's not going to be much help either. I'll find out if anyone can tell me that, as well as (if only for the sake of knowing) how tall he was. In any case, I still don't think "running man" is Worrell. I'm happy to be corrected, however!

Lots of holes, Duke, and a fair amount of shooting from the hip as well...

Sorry, John, I'm with Lee Foreman and the Dukester on this one. I think you should wait to hear what Duke Lane has promised, his proof that Lee Oswald did not shoot Tippit, before you make up your mind. I bet you will find that there are a few things left out of Mr. Myers's book, just as there were a few things left out of the computer "reenactment" Myers did for ABC Television.

Once you get to know how Myers operates, you will realize that the stuff he leaves out is sometimes the most important stuff of all.

Guys,

From Dale Myers' "With Malice": 'Oswald was last seen cutting through a parking lot behind a Texaco Service station two blocks from the shooting scene. A gray zipper jacket was found there by police. Fiber evidence later linked the jacket to the shirt Oswald was wearing at the time of his arrest (emphasis added).'

The phrase "best evidence" comes to mind.

Unfortunately, I think Dale's book follows the same general reasoning - uncritical, except of those who might disagree with his "facts" - as Posner's Case Closed. What Dale wrote about the fibers is correct on its face, however consider that the two items were shipped together in the same package and not separated within it. If they'd shipped a can of oil with them, would that prove that LHO had stopped to change someone's oil on the way by the Texaco? The transferrance of fibers should be no surprise, and hardly be probative.

With all the respect due to one of my favorite contributors, I really gotta tell ya that The "Case Closed" reference and the analogy are off the mark , Dukester. Myers' as uncritical? Au contraire. But I suppose it depends on one's prejudices. On the other hand, Posner's favorite techniques, - among a number of cheap little ruses - are selectivity and omission. Myers' work is as close to flawless as I have seen. But, that's just my opinion and we can agree to disagree in the same fashion I disagree with Myers' contention that LHO killed JFK.

I always enjoy the writing but the reasoning and conclusion seem strained here. The FBI knows how to conduct these tests. Yes, we can cast our many aspersions at that not-so-august body but, in the absence of that testing we're left with, what, a flippant oil can shipping remark? Got to admit it's funny, though; that and the kamikaze kab killer.

Speaking of packages, I'm a bit dismayed that nearly everyone seems to feel compelled to go with Oswald as 'package' murderer or Oswald as double patsy. No, he didn't kill JFK but he DID kill tippit, dammit, as any good patsy would.

JG

The comparison to Poser's - er, um, I mean "Posner's!" - stuff is probably a little unfair, but nevertheless as certain and smug in its conclusion that "LHO did Tippit" as Posner's was. One (minor?) example is Davis' statement that she "doesn't know why" she would have given anyone the impression that Tippit lived a couple of doors away from her home on the corner (the patrol car was stopped "in front of the hedgerow between the house next door [to her] and the one he lived in"), she didn't think that, so that's just the way it was, case closed. It's as if "okay, your denial fits my scenario, so I accept it and so should everyone else."

Of course, your statement that LHO "DID kill Tippit, dammit, as any good patsy would" is as fatuous as my comment about the oil can, don't you think? I don't happen to think LHO killed JDT any more than he did JFK, and don't actually believe he was anywhere near 10th & Patton unless you count "anywhere in Oak Cliff" as "nearby," and I've got pretty good reasons for that tho' the explanation will just have to wait.

... And it of course follows that I don't think JDT was out to "get" Oswald either. I'm equally dismayed that anyone thinks that LHO killed JDT even if he didn't kill JFK: why? "Just because" is not an acceptable answer, and if it wasn't self-defense, what the hell was it? Sheer folly? I think not.

Remember also - as far as the transference goes - that the FBI did not ship the shirt and jacket to the FBI, so it doesn't really matter what the FBI knows about conducting investigations or handling evidence.

PS - I, too, like the "kamikaze kabbie killer" line!

Duke,

Barnett was not the only officer who went to the back of the TSBD. There was also D.V. Harkness, who went to the back, after delivering witness Amos Euins to Inspector Sawyer’s car, and stayed there until "relieved by a squad." And Harkness found some men there who were apparently government agents.

...

An HSCA report dated 2/17/78 states, “D.V. Harkness told me that there was quite a bit of confusion and he would have to say that he may have assumed that the men were Secret Service. They could have been from some other agency.”

Ron

Clearly - to quote from our favorite work of fiction - both of these men were "mistaken" if they thought they saw men whom we all know weren't there!

I DON'T THINK WHALEY LIED BUT I DON'T THINK THEY CAB RIDE MAN WAS OSWALD.

JIM FEEMSTER

I think we agree that Whaley's testimony was honest, and must agree to disagree on most of the remainder.

Guys,

From Dale Myers' "With Malice": 'Oswald was last seen cutting through a parking lot behind a Texaco Service station two blocks from the shooting scene. A gray zipper jacket was found there by police. Fiber evidence later linked the jacket to the shirt Oswald was wearing at the time of his arrest (emphasis added).'

The phrase "best evidence" comes to mind.

2-CAR SMASHUP KILLS OSWALD TAXI DRIVER

Dallas Man, 83, Also Dies in Crash on Trinity Viaduct

By James Ewell

------------------------------------------------------

William H. Whaley, 60, the cab drive who picked up Lee Harvey Oswald just after President Kennedy was assassinated, was killed Saturday in a collision that also claimed one other life.

Whaley, of Lewisville, driving his cab, and John Henry Wells, 83 year old driver of the other car, were found dead in the wreckage after their cars crashed head-on at Hampton Road Viaduct shortly after 8 a.m.

A third victim, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Maurice R. Barnes, Jr., of Salt Lake City, Utah, a passenger in Whaley's cab, was injured and reported in critical condition late Saturday night at Parkland Hospital.

Sheriff's deputies said the car driven by Wells, of 3102 Toronto, apparently crossed over the center stripe. Whaley was driving south. The Wells car was heading north.

... McKim said it appeared that Whaley and Wells had been killed instantly.

Let's say that this was intentional - what purpose could it possibly have served? Could Whaley have recalled additional details, beyond those he already provided?

"In late-breaking news, 83-year-old John Henry Wells was used as a weapon today in yet another bizarre twist to the JFK assassination saga. The man, seen by assassination witness Danny Arce attempting to gain entry into the Texas School Book Depository on the morning of the assassination ('he said he had to take a leak,' said Arce. 'But I knew from his baggy trousers that he was wearing Depenz, and quickly deduced that his real purpose was much more nefarious!'), has joined the elite ranks of sabots and flechettes as projectiles incapable of being detected and traced back to those who set them on their path of murder and destruction. Police suspect that Wells may have been a willing weapon, intent upon revenge, however circuitous, for his humiliation in wetting his pants on the hallowed ground where Kennedy was to be killed...."

How 'bout let's not say it was intentional?!

HI LEE,

I THINK I FOUND WORRELL. ... THIS CLIP SHOWS THE MOTORCADE CLEARING ELM AND HOUSTON FROM THE SW CORNER OF HOUSTON AND ELM AND AS IT PANS TO THE RIGHT THERE IS A GUY HAULING ASS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE FRONT DOOR OF THE DEPOSITORY. I WOULD SAY HE IS WEARING A SPORT COAT OR SUIT COAT OR POSSIBLY A JACKET. WHILE EVERYONE ELSE IS LOOKING WEST ON ELM AND SOME STARTING TO MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION THIS GUY SEEMS TO BE RUNNING FOR HIS LIFE IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION WHICH, IN THE DIRECTION HE IS RUNNING WOULD TAKE HIM RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER OF THE DEPOSITORY JUST LIKE HE SAID HE DID.

GOOD HUNTING

It ain't Worrell in the clip, or he was wrong about where he was standing (which I think may have been in Farmers Branch!).

if anyone knows offhand the name of the officer stationed at Elm & Houston who ran to the back of the TSBD

Welcome Eugene Barnett.

This has actually turned into more of a project than I'd anticipated. With luck, I'll have more to post in the next couple of weeks, but for now ... well, let's just say that the working title is "James Worrell: Imaginary Witness?"

Worrell -> <- facts?

Well worth reading - the account of John Elrod. The 3400 block on Harry Hines would be about 5 miles away? Harry Hines and the railroad tracks appear to be close to one another [today] at the area of the Trade Mart. Harry Hines continues to within 1/2 a mile of the plaza.

http://www.jfkhistory.com/tramp.html

Elrod said that on the afternoon of Friday Nov. 22, 1963, he was walking on a Dallas street having just heard that President Kennedy had been mortally wounded in Dealey Plaza two miles away. Suddenly, police squad cars pulled up and he was arrested. He soon found himself on the fifth floor of the Dallas jail "for investigation of conspiracy to commit murder," a charge that was later dropped.

The thumbnail lacks a thumbprint, by the way, leading one to question whether the man in question was able to provide one if he wasn't there ... and if he was there, why didn't anyone get one from him? How does the form itself compare to any of the other arrest reports filed that that day or any other of that era? Same form? Or the one they started using in 1967?

On November 30th, FBI Agent Alan Manning interviewed Mrs. Evelyn Harris. In his summary of that interview, he wrote:

the daughter of Mrs. Lucy Lopez, a white woman married to a Mexican, worked at a sewing room across the street from the TSBD. Her daughter and some of the other girls knew Lee Harvey Oswald and also were acquainted with Jack Ruby. They observed Jack Ruby give Oswald a pistol when Oswald came out of the building.

Seems much more logical.

Too bad they didn't say where - or which way - LHO went after getting this pistol, or where or when he came out of the building. It's also confusing: who's the "white woman married to a Mexican," Mrs. Lucy Lopez or her daughter? And whose daughter knew both LHO and JR, Lucy Lopez's daughter, or Lucy Lopez's daughter's daughter?

If this is all so, why would LHO have supposedly stopped by his rooming house if he already had "his" gun? Just for a change of clothes? Doesn't seem like the time to be fastidious to me!

Hey Duke.

Yes - the details seem ridiculous, making the story seem far fetched - however, perhaps that is the intent. 'A white woman married to a Mexican' - and the relevance of that fact bearing on her statement is?

Anyway, from the Fritz notes it appears that LHO changed his pants. I often wonder what the hell he was up to - he appears to admit having a gun on his person when he entered the Texas theatre [if we can trust the notes] - but it doesn't seem set in stone that he would have picked up the weapon from the boarding house.

And it also begs the question about the bad firing pin. In the Life article I posted, Maurice Captor Of Oswald MacDonald says something odd about having the hammer snap between the webbing of his fingers. What is he trying to say? Is it a bad firing pin, or is MacDonald a supercop? Didn't Wade get it right? Seems to me that if it was a mail-order, with the number of times 'Oswald' allegedly went to the firing range, that the pistol would be in superior working order - at least, that would seem logical. Of course, the sporterized mauser would have to be located....but anyway. More likely scenario, given the theory that Oswald is being handled, is that he is provided with a bad weapon. That way, he pulls the weapon and is shot and killed - open and shut case. We wouldn't need MacDonald to tell us how he shoved the gun into Oswald's belly and would have fired if it hadn't been out of fear of penetrating his body and the seatback and injuring one of his fellow officers - Oswald would be dead. I like this scenario - things fell apart, and didn't go according to plan, which is why Ruby was then on the hotseat.

Let's consider some of the construct as a possible theory. We've got a man that shoots Tippit repeatedly. He heads for the shelter of the nearby Abundant Life Temple. In the meanwhile, Oswald is discovered in the Texas Theatre. He's not just the man who may have shot Kennedy - a man a lot of folks wanted dead anyway - he just shot a cop, and one of their own. Blood is boiling. From the cops I know - that is the unforgiveable sin.

Debra Conway has posted an interesting article on Lancer about Gladys Johnson's granddaughter, Patricia Puckett Hall:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

Ms. Hall does not believe that Lee kept the revolver at the rooming house, because her grandmother and the maid would have found it. However I seem to recall that a holster for the revolver WAS found at Beckley, and presumably that was a surprise to Gladys Johnson

The article was published in Sunday's (3/12/06) Dallas Morning News supplement. Interesting, isn't it? Of course, she was just a pup back then, and the world is much different through a child's eyes....

There is of course the theory that Oswald was to have been transported from Dallas to Cuba, by way of Mexico. It may have been a simple matter of picking up some ID not normally carried on a daily basis - like the Selective Service card for Hidell. That's speculation, of course, but would make more sense possibly. It also occurs to me that Oswald was maintaining his cover throughout the questioning - so he wasn't in a position to be honest and open about his activities or whom he may have been working with.

More on the gun - I hadn't realized Oswald ordered it COD to a Post Office box. Now that's a neat trick.

- lee

I don't have much in the line of specifics on this incident, but the theoretical extension of this - and I stress that it is just a theory - that Lee Oswald was taking part in an operation that was to prove that people could order surplus military weaponry through the mails without repercussion (such as losing a new Chevy!).

The theory fits well enough with the known facts ... and could even potentially explain how someone else got a hold of "Lee's" guns to use in the commission of the crimes ... if it were more than a theory!

Debra Conway has posted an interesting article on Lancer about Gladys Johnson's granddaughter, Patricia Puckett Hall:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...ing_type=search

Ms. Hall does not believe that Lee kept the revolver at the rooming house, because her grandmother and the maid would have found it. However I seem to recall that a holster for the revolver WAS found at Beckley, and presumably that was a surprise to Gladys Johnson

On November 30th, FBI Agent Alan Manning interviewed Mrs. Evelyn Harris. In his summary of that interview, he wrote:

the daughter of Mrs. Lucy Lopez, a white woman married to a Mexican, worked at a sewing room across the street from the TSBD. Her daughter and some of the other girls knew Lee Harvey Oswald and also were acquainted with Jack Ruby. They observed Jack Ruby give Oswald a pistol when Oswald came out of the building.

Seems much more logical.

If this is all so, why would LHO have supposedly stopped by his rooming house if he already had "his" gun? Just for a change of clothes? Doesn't seem like the time to be fastidious to me!

Thanks to everyone for your help so far. It has turned into more work than I'd anticipated, but it's fun nevertheless. So far, I've put together six or seven pages, and there's still more to go.

If anyone happens to have - or know where I can find online, saving me a trip to the library downtown! - a copy of the March 6, 1964 front page article in the Dallas Times Herald in which Worrell's upcoming trip to Washington to testify before the WC is discussed - the one that apparently led James Romack to contact the FBI - I'd appreciate a link or a fax (email me for the number).

Likewise, if anyone knows offhand the name of the officer stationed at Elm & Houston who ran to the back of the TSBD (I've got to dig it out, but have it around here somewhere), your saving me time doing that is also greatly appreciated!

After that's done, we'll find out what time Tippit was killed!

Incidentally, two weeks ago, I had to undergo ear surgery for the damage done 13 years ago. A five-inch incision was made in my scalp behind the ear so the surgeon could get to a serious infection inside the ear.

Has anyone checked for implants? This could rate right up there with the mysterious "listening devices" around Dealey Plaza, and the more recent attempt by the City of Dallas to expose Plaza-ites to a deadly nerve toxin, the nefarious purposes of which remain hidden.

Was this sarcasm or just a sick attempt at humor?

Chuck

Or maybe it's just an IOU, in which case you don't have a need to know if you don't already.

Incidentally, two weeks ago, I had to undergo ear surgery for the damage done 13 years ago. A five-inch incision was made in my scalp behind the ear so the surgeon could get to a serious infection inside the ear.

Very bizarre on the timing. Both Keeler and Profumo are mentioned in 'The Berlin Conspiracy' which I have just about finished - a newly released fictional account of the assassination of Kennedy in Germany. Bought to pass the time on a plane, I found myself laughing aloud at the author's treatment of a passage dealing with Keeler.

- lee

Ummm ... could you maybe put MY posts on "ignore" for a while?

Sam Pate, a news announcer for KBOX-AM radio, has been a topic of at least one other thread here, one recently. In preparation to an interview (or plural) with him, I'd ask a couple of things of anyone with an interest:

(1) If you have any questions for Sam about his whereabouts, actions or statements, or those of any other news broadcasters or agencies, please post them here for me. I will make sure that as many as possible are included.

(2)Ditto any questions or comments regarding the Oswald "news conferences" or Jack Ruby.

There is, of course, a quid pro quo of sorts: I need a wee tad of help.

(1) Somewhere here or on Lancer (or elsewhere; I think it was in a thread, anyway) the was a recounting of the incident, I believe involving James Worrell, where he had seen someone running from the back of the TSBD. Someone - I forget the name - disputed Worrell's story, saying that he'd been right there, too, and saw nothing of the sort. The latter told of moving a construction barricade to allow a car to come through.

Can anyone please direct me to this info so I don't have to reconstruct it all?

Many thanks in advance!

If possible, please let me know ASAP as I hope he'll be visiting soon. Many thanks in advance!

The question, then, is what time AF1 landed and what time the motorcade left Love Field. Worrell said (2H191-192) that he was at LF when the President arrived, but left before JFK did, taking a bus downtown. He said he arrived downtown at Elm & Houston some time after 10:00 a.m., maybe 10:30 or 10:45, about "an hour; an hour and a half" before the motorcade arrived.

I'm in the process of getting a 1963 schedule for the bus routes that went from Love Field to downtown to confirm whether or not he could have made such a trip, even discounting the times he estimated: the question is as to elapsed time from one location to the other.

While Sam doesn't recollect Worrell specifically, Worrell did state that he "ran down Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in [CE]359, I was standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door." This "crossing over" may or may not be something that Sam saw - he did see someone crossing Houston Street, he says - but the bigger question is whether Worrell could have been there at all if he was where he'd said he was that day.

According to today's Dallas bus schedule, someone arriving at the West End Transfer Station, just a few blocks from DP, would be on the bus about 35 minutes from point to point; to arrive by 11:33 (an hour before 12:30), one would have to leave Love Field at 10:58. Did Worrell have that kind of time?

... All of that said, your final "proof" of the eight-minute boot-camp mile being "doubled" when walking is without basis. There are 63,360 inches per mile, and the average male's stride is about 30 inches, thus taking 2112 paces to cover a mile. To do that in 16 minutes, one would have to take 132 strides a minute or 2.2 strides per second; in other words, a bit less than one second from the time the left foot first strikes the pavement until the next time it does and the right foot starts forward. ....

"Quick step" (normal-speed marching) in the America Armed Forces is 120 thirty inch paces per minute; "double time" is 180. 120 steps per minute is two steps per second, just a wee tad slower than my estimate above. To take 2112 paces at that rate of speed, no faster and no slower, would require 17.6 minutes, or 17 minutes and 36 seconds. At "double time," it would require 11 minutes and 45 seconds.

If you were ever in the military, you marched ... and if you marched, you know it is slower than the average person walks "at ease." "Double time" is pretty brisk, and can be quite taxing after only a couple of minutes at that pace on anyone not used to it. It's three steps per second ... you can try this at home (!) to see what it's like.

Putting the 9/10 mile from 1026 to 10&P back onto this equation, you get:

Again, what is not at issue is whether LHO could have made that trip in time to kill Tippit, but both (1) exactly when "in time" had to have been, and (2) whether he did make the trip at all. I submit that none of these data - or much else related to his having gone from TSBD to Oak Cliff (other than being in the theater in time to be arrested) - can be demonstrated with more than barely reasonable certainty, and certainly not "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Of course, what doubts are "reasonable" to one are not necessarily reasonable to another!

I think it's fair to say that DPD's dispatch time clock was accurate, as were the phone company's (not that it came into direct play here) and the bus company's (to meet schedules).

At least two people (Divies & anr) claim to have phoned in reports of the officer's shooting. Unless I missed it, the Warren Commission did not seek these time-stamped records, though I imagine they would have been easy to obtain.

Something I forgot to mention: Down at 10th & Denver lived the Wrights. They were sitting in the living room when they heard shots. Mister went outside, Missus called the cops. The cops sent an ambulance, identified on the DPD tapes as '602' from Dudley Hughes Funeral Home at Crawford and Jefferson, about 2 blocks from the scene. The ambulance was sent to 501 W Patton, which was the Wrights' home. The time stamp on the DPD tapes was 1:19, and the time stamp on the Hughes dispatch sheet read 1:18.

Markham was mistaken about the time of the bus: it was only "1:15" by her own reckoning, not by its schedule. If she and the WC were both correct, Markham's bus was already going by while she was still a block-and-change from where she needed to be ... and there's absolutely no reason to suspect that that was true.

Duke, can you provide a link to the schedule of Helen Markham's bus? What time was Helen's "1.15" actually scheduled for?

Okay, so she was "an utter screwball," but does anyone think she really walked that slow? Or that she didn't know what time - by her clock, anyway - she had to catch her bus? Even if she thought it was the 1:22 bus that came at "1:15," she still was 8-9 minutes ahead of the bus by her reckoning - based on her daily routine - with only a couple of minutes left to walk, so we're looking at around 1:13-1:14 for the shooting even based on the latest estimate possible.

(Unfortunately, to my knowledge, her routine after getting downtown was not explored: what time did she get to work, how long before she was actually "on the floor" taking orders, what time did she get off off the bus at what bus stop downtown to walk how far to work? She was still alive a few years ago - she was only in her mid-30s in 1963 - and, I heard then, actually still living on 9th, tho' I don't know for certain.)

... AS A SIDE NOTE BENEVEDES WAS COMING FROM THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION SO HE WOULDN'T HAVE MADE UP ANY TRAFFIC THAT EMPEDED HM ANYWAY.

I need a wee tad of help.

(1) Somewhere here or on Lancer (or elsewhere; I think it was in a thread, anyway) the was a recounting of the incident, I believe involving James Worrell, where he had seen someone running from the back of the TSBD. Someone - I forget the name - disputed Worrell's story, saying that he'd been right there, too, and saw nothing of the sort. The latter told of moving a construction barricade to allow a car to come through.

Can anyone please direct me to this info so I don't have to reconstruct it all?

Many thanks in advance!

Duke I recall exactly what you are talking about. My guess is that it is in Jerry Rose's The Third Decade or Fourth Decade publication. I will try and locate all of the issues. Interestingly, there is a very small article on Same Pate on page 7 of the Jan 1999 issue of the Fourth Decade. If I find the information you want, I'll post the reference immediately. Nick

Duke I have located an article entitled "North of Elm on Houston" by Dennis Ford. It is in the July 1995 issue of The Fourth Decade. It is about 6 pages long and relates the stories of Richard Carr, James Worrell, Sam Pate and James Romack. Let me know if you want a copy and if mail or fax is OK Regards Nick

Sam Pate, a news announcer for KBOX-AM radio, has been a topic of at least one other thread here, one recently. In preparation to an interview (or plural) with him, I'd ask a couple of things of anyone with an interest:

There is, of course, a quid pro quo of sorts: I need a wee tad of help.

If possible, please let me know ASAP as I hope he'll be visiting soon. Many thanks in advance!

I KNOW HELEN MARKHAM [ HM ] WAS NOT A GOOD WITNESS FOR THE WC. IN FACT, SHE SOUNDED

TOTALLY INSANE TO ME. SHE WAS ALMOST AS BAD AS HENRY WADE.

HOWEVER, SHE DID HAVE A JOB AND DID RIDE THE BUS EVERY DAY THAT SHE WORKED SO SHE HAD TO BE FAMILIAR WITH THE BUS SCHEDULE AND WHAT TIME SHE WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE HER APT. IN ORDER TO ARRIVE AT THE BUS STOP TO CATCH HER BUS EACH DAY.

{ VOL.lll, WC HEARINGS, PAGE 305 ]

[ IN REGARDS TO THE TIME SHE LEFT FOR WORK ]

[ QUOTE ]

MR. BALL: YOU THINK IT WAS A LITTLE AFTER 1 ?

HM : I WOULDN'T BE AFRAID TO BET IT WASN'T 6 OR 7 MINUTES AFTER 1 .

MR. BALL: YOU KNOW WHAT TIME YOU USUALLY GET YOUR BUS DON'T YOU?

HM : 1:15

MR. BALL : SO IT WAS BEFORE 1:15?

HM : YES IT WAS. [ END QUOTE ]

SO FROM HER ADDRESS AT 328 E. 9 TH ST. SHE WOULD HAVE HAD TO WALK 2/3 OF A BLOCK TO PATTON, CROSS PATTON, WALK A FULL BLOCK TO PATTON AND EAST 10 TH. AND UNDER NORMAL CIRCUMSTANCES STILL WALK A FULL BLOCK FURTHER TO BE STANDING , WAITING FOR HER BUS TO ARRIVE AT 1:15. IF NO ONE IS AT THE BUS STOP THE BUS DOSN'T STOP.

EVERYONE IS PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH WHAT HM SAID OCCURRED THAT DAY AT THE INTERSECTION OF PATTON AND E. 10 TH. ST. TRAFFIC WAS HEAVY, SHE HAD TO WAIT TO CROSS, A POLICEMAN GOING SLOW , A MAN TURNING AND COMING BACK TO THE SQUAD CAR, RESTING HIS ARMS ON THE WINDOW AND TALKING TO THE POLICEMAN [ FOR A FEW MINUTES ? }, THE POLICEMAN GETTING OUT, THE MAN SHOOTING THE COP, THE MAN RUNS OFF, SHE COVERS HER EYES, SHE'S IN SHOCK, AFTER THE MAN LEAVES SHE GOES OVER TO THE COP.....

HERE"S MY POINT.

WHAT WAS THE OFFICAL TIME OF THE CITIZEN"S CALL ABOUT THE SHOOTING AND COULD IT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN THE TIME ALLOTTED?

IN ORDER TO GRADUATE FROM BOOT CAMP WE HAD TO RUN THE MILE IN 8 MINUTES. AFTER 8 WEEKS OF TRAINING ALMOST EVERYBODY WAS ABLE TO DO THIS. IF YOU DOUBLE THIS TIME FOR WALKING EVEN AT A FAST PACE ITS GONNA TAKE 16 MINUTES.

OSWALD WAS NOT AT THE TIPPIT MURDER SCENE ! CASE CLOSED !!!!!!!!!

JIM FEEMSTER

First, traffic on these side streets is never "heavy," nor even close to anything you would so describe. Maybe four cars in a row rushing to lunch, tops, or six cars turning off of Jefferson to get home at the end of the day, but nothing much more than that. "Traffic" does not necessarily mean "heavy traffic," especially on a side street where several if not many minutes can pass without a single vehicle travelling it. I've been there often enough to know this to be the case today, when there are many more cars and trucks on the roads than there were in 1963.

Part of the problem is in "assuming." You can't assume that when Markham said she was waiting for "traffic" to pass that she meant that the City really should have put a crossing-light in there, or that there was a long line of cars and trucks coming. In fact, we can only state unequivocably that this "traffic" consisted of Tippit's patrol car, Donnie Benavides' pickup truck, Jack Tatum's car, and Tom Bowley's car a block away. Scoggins' cab was parked, and hardly could be counted as "traffic" of any sort.

That she had to wait to cross the street necessarily only means that she had to wait for a couple of cars to pass (Tippit's and Tatum's, and maybe Benavides' if he hadn't put on his signal), not very long at all.

Likewise, the "official time" of the report of the shooting is essentially meaningless because you don't know exactly where Bowley's car was parked, exactly how long it took him to get from there to the scene of the shooting, or exactly how long he had to wait for Benavides to get out of the car so he could use the mike himself.

Bowley checked his watch as he got out of the car because he was going to pick up his wife at the phone company where she worked to go on vacation, at 1:15, and he wanted to know the time relative to that (this from a recent conversation I had with him at his home). It read 1:10. There is no way to know how accurate it was since there were no such things as quartz watches back then, nor ones that synchronize themselves with satellites as there are today.

He also did not travel the route regularly, and did so that day only because of the planned family vacation, and did not regularly pick up his wife at any particular time, so we can't surmise whether his watch was even close to the time on the phone company's clocks, which we might reasonably presume to be accurate since most phone companies provided dial-in "time of day" services at the time, and people - and companies and police departments and radio stations and bus companies - routinely set their own clocks by those.

Also, when he arrived the phone company to pick up his wife, she did not get off as planned because she was a phone operator and the phones "went crazy" after the assassination ... so if he was late, she was even later. We don't even have a reference of his wife berating him for being ten minutes late (she didn't get off until after 4:00 p.m.) since there was no reason for him to notice or remember, much less to actually report it.

It could have taken him six minutes to get from the car to talking on the radio, but maybe it took less ... or more. That it was Bowley on the radio is beyond question no matter whether or not Benavides thinks he made the call or not, or whether the WC credited him with having done so, simply on account of the fact that there are not TWO calls reporting the shooting, and even Benavides said that the PD acknowledged Bowley's transmission. (I could spend an awful lot more time on this, but won't.)

Likewise, Markham's movements are open to some question inasmuch as there is no guessing how fast or slow she typically walked. We can assume that she usually if not always caught her regularly scheduled bus, and that she left her home in enough time to get to the bus that took her downtown to work. How much time is that? How much longer did she need to get to her bus stop from the corner where she watched the shooting take place to catch the bus?

If she walked "deliberately," it could have been a minute, give or take. If she was more of a "dawdler," a "meanderer," a "mosey-er" or a "slow-poke," then it could have been any amount of time longer. No matter what time she normally left her house for her regular bus, all one can state is that, however fast or slow she went, she got to the bus stop before the bus did, and that's all. Maybe she got there five minutes ahead of it, or maybe just seconds ahead of it, but in any case she got there in time to board the bus on a regular and routine basis.

We can reasonably presume the bus company's clocks to be accurate - and their drivers' watches to be synchronized reasonably often to them - although once again, we cannot presume that Markham's clock at home (or her watch, which she did not indicate that she wore) was as well.

All of that said, your final "proof" of the eight-minute boot-camp mile being "doubled" when walking is without basis. There are 63,360 inches per mile, and the average male's stride is about 30 inches, thus taking 2112 paces to cover a mile. To do that in 16 minutes, one would have to take 132 strides a minute or 2.2 strides per second; in other words, a bit less than one second from the time the left foot first strikes the pavement until the next time it does and the right foot starts forward. Not a very brisk pace ... in fact, pretty leisurely, so why double the time?

Even if you do double the time and estimate 16 minutes to travel a mile, first of all it is only 9/10 of a mile to 10th and Patton from the rooming house (16 x .9 = 14.4 or 14 minutes, 24 seconds), and second and more importantly, starting when? Was there a clock on the wall that Earlene Roberts happened to look at, or did she check her watch if she wore one? Why would she have if she didn't know "O.H. Lee" had done something wrong and she'd have to remember the time; if she did look, why make any note of the time in the first place ... and in any event, how can we assume that the clock/watch was accurate?

If the Beckley clock - even assuming that there was one (nobody mentioned one, and even Earlene Roberts did no more than "guesstimate" what time it was that LHO - presuming it was even him - arrived and left again) - was off by as much as five minutes, and if Bowley went almost instantaneously from car to cruiser (did I mention that there is no record of where he stopped, no photos of it or testimony about it, and he has no memory himself?) and his watch was spot-on accurate, there's 15 minutes for someone to make the supposed 14 minute, 24 second trip, shoot and flee, more (or less) if Bowley's watch was NOT accurate, if he walked rather than ran from one place to the next, if Benavides spent one minute or five trying to use the radio in Tippit's car, or ...?

I think it's fair to say that DPD's dispatch time clock was accurate, as were the phone company's (not that it came into direct play here) and the bus company's (to meet schedules). Those are the only absolutes when it comes to what happened and when. I believe anyone could have walked the distance from Beckley to 10th and Patton in 14.4 minutes or less (one of these days, I'll actually do it myself ... and I'm older than David Belin or Oswald was back then!) ...

... But the fact that someone could have done something is far from proving that they did do it.

Likewise, dealing with Oswald's supposed timings and an unfounded and vaguely estimated belief of whether or not someone could cover a specific distance in a specific time does not disprove anything either. You are, however, absolutely correct about the bus: if nobody was there, it wasn't going to stop. Markham was, however, mistaken about the time of the bus: it was only "1:15" by her own reckoning, not by its schedule. If she and the WC were both correct, Markham's bus was already going by while she was still a block-and-change from where she needed to be ... and there's absolutely no reason to suspect that that was true.