Duke Lane

Duke, look like this?

I think you drew the line straight down the middle, but only because there are no "pie slices" out of the faces. White's deal had the dividing line running at an angle ....

Jack White, who has had more experience with disseminators of disinformation than anyone else in the JFK research community, developed an axiom some time back, which holds that the more intense the attack, the closer you are to the truth. By that standard, I believe we must be right on the money ....

I hardly consider Jack's "axiom" as any kind of "standard," but rather as something that "just goes to show" how, when you're proven wrong, you're really right. It is perhaps understandable why Jack "has had more experience with disseminators of disinformation than anyone else in the JFK research community:" have you see his work to prove how Apollo 11 and 14's moon landings were hoaxes? Click here to view these wondrous analyses!

Of course, Jack has also determined that I am a "disinformation agent" and implied that I work(ed) for the CIA. I gather that determination to be rooted in the fact that I have dared to not agree with every theory espoused in the JFK thing, and even managed to discredit one or two of them, as well as the fact that I said that "my company" was transferring me to Virginia some years back (equation: "company" + "Virginia" = "CIA"). If Jack had even the slightest clue about me, he'd know otherwise. If he believes what he says, he is a fool.

He suggests that I am paranoid for asking whether he works for the US, but does not answer the question.

Which must mean that he does not, otherwise "the more intense the attack, the closer you are to the truth," ergo "no attack" = "far from the truth."

He tells me that he does not believe me, even when I explain that I do not make any money from royalties on the book but recycle it to support further research.

"Making" money and "keeping" money are two different things. It's like saying you don't "make" money at work because you spend it all on food, shelter and clothing.

Whether he believes it or not I could care less.

One spends an awful lot of time dealing with something one "couldn't" care less about.

Why would we expend the time, money, and effort to get to the bottom of this case if we did not believe what we were doing?

To make money to recycle it to support further research?

We have proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that this was not an accident.

Clearly, some people have doubts, whether or not you consider them reasonable. This amounts to nothing more than saying "we've proven it to our own satisfaction." If that was a "standard" of any sort, no defendant would ever be acquitted as long as the prosecutors believed he was guilty!

(Check out my websites) and ask if I appear to be some sort of nut case or a serious scholar with important accomplishments to his credit. And if you conclude that I am a serious scholar, ask yourself why my research on Wellstone should be inferior to my research on other subjects.

Even the most painstaking research can reach incorrect conclusions.

This response will, of course, "prove" that I am the "disinformation agent like [my] mentor David Perry," as Jack has charged (that "some people think") elsewhere on this forum. C'est la vie.

Duke,

Is this the one you're referring to?

There's a print of it on page 40 of The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner.

Ron

Yeah, that's the one. Now, does anyone have one with the line of where the face is supposed to be divided?

I took the photo that Jack White made famous, the "Alex Hidell" photo he posited was an amalgam of two faces, pasted together on a diagonal axis. I cut the full photo on the axis Jack had suggested and then made two copies of each half on transparency "paper," then put the two corresponding "halves" together (e.g., the upper-right half with the upper-right half reversed), and found two very different-looking men.

Duke,

That is fascinating. What you say certainly lends support to the two-Oswald theory. Do you still have the images, or could you repeat what you did and post the results here?

Ron

Ron,

I don't still have the images, at least I don't think I do. If you or someone will point me toward one of the books that has either this whole photo or Jack's "cut" of it, I will try to do so. I just don't have time to go searching for one myself ....

Once I have it, I'll scan it, cut it, copy and rotate it so that one side overlaps the other and, hopefully, that should reproduce the two photos.

One condition, tho': you can't tell Jack White that I've ever lent any credence to anything he's ever said, okay?

Honestly, I did not expect what happened, and the only truly amazing thing is that nobody else that I know of - including Jack - has ever done this little experiment, or published the "proof" it offers. And I did this over ten years ago!!

Scary, isn't it?

Hey Thomas.

The excellent post above was Duke Lanes. I'm also looking forward to what he photographed - as I probably won't make Dallas again for awhile.

- lee

Here ya go! This is a start of a 'virtual tour' of some of the "interesting" places around Dallas. I've already gotten the okay to do the inside of the Texas Theater this way once they have finished renovations; maybe, for whatever it might be worth, I'll do the inside of the Abundant Life Temple, although I'm not sure what would be valuable to have photos of, flat or spherical.

Click here to play the virtual tour. If you have pop-up blockers enabled, either disable them, or hold down your Ctrl key when you click the link. Java must also be enabled on your computer.

Some notes:

* None of the photos have anything annotated onto them, such as where the "sniper's nest" window is on the TSBD, or where Tippit was shot on the 10th St view.

* The spherical shot of Dealey Plaza has some people (actually, artifacts of people) edited out. This is because each photo consists of one overexposure and one underexposure, and with people moving their "ghosts" remain on the blended image, but they don't really look like real people.

* Harlandale is one very scary neighborhood!

* Photos were all taken on November 22, 2005.

I'll probably add more photos and spheres as time goes on (or allows).

Hey Thomas.

The excellent post above was Duke Lanes. I'm also looking forward to what he photographed - as I probably won't make Dallas again for awhile.

- lee

Duke and Lee,

Sorry about the mixup. My bad.

Thomas

Thomas,

Somewhere deep within the foul, ugly depths of my being, I'm sure I can find some way to forgive you!!

Duke

Any photo experts out there, who can prove that the skeletal structure of the face does not change with age?

The person someone would want to consult on this question is a forensic anthropologist, one of those people who put faces back onto skulls. They would be able to provide much better advice on this than any "photo expert out there."

Speaking of which (forensic anthropologists), I spoke with one in Virginia some years ago, attached to the Virginia State Police or the Chief Medical Examiner's office, I forget which (if the latter, I forgot to ask to speak with Kay Scarpetta!). What he told me was interesting.

I'd asked how someone could identify a person if all they had was, say, half of a skull or half of a photo. He explained to me that the prevailing presumption or rule of thumb is that one half of a person's face (or facial structure) is very nearly a mirror image of the other.

With that in mind, I took the photo that Jack White made famous, the "Alex Hidell" photo he posited was an amalgam of two faces, pasted together on a diagonal axis. I cut the full photo on the axis Jack had suggested and then made two copies of each half on transparency "paper," then put the two corresponding "halves" together (e.g., the upper-right half with the upper-right half reversed), and found two very different-looking men. With one, I had to draw in a chin, and the other had a pie-slice out of the top of his head, but it was not difficult adding those details to the renderings.

What I then did was to take both composites to the Fairfax County (VA) Police Department and spoke briefly with a detective there. I showed him the "Oswald" half (the upper right portion, as I recall) and asked him who it looked like. He said "Oswald." I told him that that's what I'd thought, too. I asked him if I had other similar questions, could I visit with him, which he (somewhat resignedly) said "sure." Whatever made me happy, I guess.

I came back a couple of weeks later and showed him the "Hidell" half and asked him who he looked like, and again he said "Oswald." I then showed him the first composite and asked if the two images were of the same person and he said that, no, it didn't appear that they were, although there was a similiarity. Clearly, the "Oswald half" was in fact Oswald, he opined, and the "Hidell half" was someone who resembled Oswald.

I then showed him the original "composite" and asked him who it was. Again, he said it looked like Oswald, but it could be someone who merely looked like him. I showed him a photo that was unarguably Oswald (I don't remember now which one), and he again said that the subject of that photo was clearly the same person as the "Oswald half."

Then I explained my conversation with the forensic anthropologist - he agreed, based on his limited knowledge, that that had always been his understanding (both sides of a person's face being basically the same) - and then how I'd made each of the two "photos," from one "official photo of Oswald." He asked for a copy of the original and the transparencies, said he found them interesting, and promised to get back to me.

Unfortunately, shortly thereafter, (at least, as Jack would like to think) The Company (or did I mean "my company?") transferred me back to Texas and I never heard from the detective again (nor did I seek him out, and no longer remember who he was).

Nevertheless, there's your answer: contact a forensic anthropologist ... who is not akin to a Warren Commission apologist, despite the homophonic similarity!

Various thoughts:

You may wish to check into the other three or so items which were also occurring, which if recalled correctly included a bank holdup, a fire, and I believe that it was a bomb at the YMCA.

Those persons who actually get away with such things are in the "business" of knowing what it takes.

Therefore, diversionary activities and tactics are an inherent part of any such plan.

1. Soft Drink Bottlers association meeting & RMN:-------Drain on Police resources & "overload" of City Management.

Beyond the possible "overload of City Management" due to a former US VP being in town, I don't see a bottler's convention as being any sort of "drain" on police resources. After all, Dallas was, is, and has long been a "convention city," and I have been involved with several of them in more recent years, presumably much larger than one whose relatively few attendees would be those handfuls of people who actually bottle Pepsi (or Coke or beer) around the country.

2. Various other activities which would further create further drain on Police capabilities: IE: Fire; Bank Holdup; Bomb (or bomb threat) at YMCA.*

*Somewhere in a box, I have the details of these activities. They specifically caught my eye due to the associations of LHO & Jack Ruby with the YMCA.

I'd be interested in seeing that info, but at this point I'm a tiny bit skeptical simply on account of the fact that, of the extant transcripts of DPD radio traffic, nobody was dispatched to them, while there yet remain several burglaries and other "petty" crimes that officers were directed to (and then told to ignore, or ignored on their own), up to and including a report that a couple of guys were filling their gas tank at a service station in west Oak Cliff with a rifle in the back of their car.

The "investigating" officer of that incident, incidentally, was R.C. Nelson, the other officer who was ordered into Oak Cliff along with Tippit, but who chose to ignore those orders ... and even informed dispatch that he was doing so as he was doing so! Nelson seemed to have been hell-bent upon getting to the Tippit scene, and was later misdirected ("suspect last seen heading north on Patton from 10th" or words to that very similar effect ... after LHO had been taken into custody!

3. Firecrackers along the parade route. As with "Pavlov's Dog" this inherently created a "conditioned" reflex to the reactions of SS Agents, as well as creating diversionary activities.

Um ... have you done this sort of thing before? Only kidding, but it certainly does make sense ... but was it done? I've never heard of it ....

4. That Jack Ruby reportedly made a statement to the effect of "watching the fireworks", would seem to indicate that he had some potential knowledge of this activity, even if he actually had no knowledge and/or idea as to it's purpose.

To paraphrase Ms Clairol, as she used to ask, "did he, or didn't he?" Got more info on this?

P.S. One really should recall that RMN had just been in Dallas, therefore, there are other potential reasons for current and/or ex-SS personnel to have been there, other than just those associated with JFK.

RMN kept, and utilized ex-/former FBI as well as SS personnel as his aides and assistants.

I therefore do not doubt that someone in the vicinity of the Stockade Fence could have been in possession of papers which identified them as being a SS Agent, without any direct connection to the Presidential Protection Detail of the US SS. After all, RMN was on a flight home!

One thing I'm not certain of; perhaps you can clarify it for me?

Ex-Presidents have received SS protection after leaving office for the rest of their lives until (and including) Bill Clinton. Now, they only get SS for a limited time, as I best recall. The question is what, if any, ex-Vice Presidents got or get afterh they leave office?

I agree that it's possible that, if ex-VPs got SS protection after leaving office, those agents were well-enough versed with SS procedure to have pulled off having been on-duty SS agents following the assassination. But the questions which arise, in addition to the above, are:

1) Were those SS agents (and who were they, anyway?) more loyal to their jobs or to RMN (or any other person they're protecting)?

2) Do they rotate their positions within the SS or stay with a sole protectee and, along the same lines, how much "say" does a protectee have in who protects him (or, someday, her)?

3) Even assuming a great loyalty to the protectee, can they be persuaded to accomodate the protectee's wishes, even if those include murder ... and moreover, murder of someone in an office that they are sworn to protect?

It would seem that whatever you might assume along these lines, it would have to include that anyone in such a position was acting upon their own initiative rather than being directed by anyone. or that whoever the "SS agent" was, was merely in a position to know enough to be able to pull it off.

I'd also like to thank Duke for his very informative posts. Particularly interesting for me was the stuff he posted awhile back about the Tippit autopsy material. I had been wondering if this would support Jack Tatum (the coup de grace witness) for a while, since no other witness had reported this.

I will attempt, over the next few weeks, to find my Tippit autopsy information, and will post as much of it as I'm able. It does support the coup de grace description insofar as the head shot goes, though I cannot recall if it mentioned powder burns or anything of that sort (which wouldn't be absolutely necessary, I wouldn't think, if the shot were fired even from hip height).

Fabulous stuff Duke.

Thanks a lot for sharing that. Plus the additional information. That was magnificent.

- lee

I'd include the shot of 3126 Harlandale, too, but I've apparently exceeded my global image limit (the others are only 50K each). It's in a pretty run-down neighborhood, "scary" enough that this house has an orange-on-black "No Trespassing" (or was it "Posted?") sign on it.

This is a shot of the old Abundant Life Temple on the southeast corner of 10th and Crawford, one block west from where JD Tippit was shot. The building does not actually have a basement per se, i.e., a level that is fully below ground level.

It appears, looking in one of the ground floor doors (near the right rear of the building in this shot), that the lowest level floor is perhaps 2-4 feet below the level of the street, but no more than that. It can perhaps be considered a "basement" inasmuch as it is below the level of the main entry at the front of the building, and I'd probably call it that myself.

As you can see, the structure has three levels at the front, including the "basement." Why only the basement might be considered somewhere someone might be hiding - since it is where most of the entrances are - versus any other, I don't know.

If a weekday's activity there today is the same as it was 42 years ago, then I'd certainly say that it's unlikely that anyone would have been able to get in any other than the street level doors, and NOT into the main doors.

After all, the Abundant Life Temple - or the Revival Tabernacle, as the building is called today - is not exactly St Mary's Catholic Church, where you might expect to see people coming and going all day.

This is a photo of the church from the rear, actually from the middle of Jefferson Blvd. The yellow building is the old Bellew's Texaco, and it is essentially unchanged since well before 1963 according to the owner, whom I spoke with on 11/22/05, except that they no longer pump gasoline.

As to the church, the rear part of the structure has four levels, the ground floor being slightly below street level. I have not yet been inside, but I have the name and phone number of the pastor, and hope to be able to visit soon.

You'll also notice that there is nothing - and never has been - other than a parking lot between the rear of the service station and the rear of the church. Thus, someone who had veered off of Jefferson Blvd behind the old Texaco would not have very many places to go to hide, especially if you rule out the church.

Also, to the right of and behind the station is where the "abandoned houses" were. They have been razed and replaced with some sort of warehouse structure. The alleyway that runs between and parallel to 10th and Jefferson is a part of the parking lot here, and does not actually become an alleyway, per se, until you have passed the church building going east from Crawford. The alleyway continues west on the other side of Crawford (not visible in this shot).

Also not visible in this shot, behind me, is ...

...the Hughes Funeral Home, still standing after all these years.

An interesting footnote that I had not been aware of before today, even though I've been in the neighborhood several times. Regarding driveways going from the front to the rear of the 10th Street homes, that is not the case today and I don't believe it to have been the case then ... only because there is another "street" of homes that front onto the alleyway!

The "alleyway homes" that I saw — on the second, third and fourth lots east of Patton — were easily 40 years old. Thus, there was not only a dwelling fronting on 10th Street, but there was also one behind it, with a distinct possibility that the same did not hold true for the Davis' home at 400 E 10th (the corner home).

This is a photo of the home at 321 E 10th, two homes in from the northwest corner of the 10th & Patton intersection (the "Helen Markham corner"). The one beside it to the left is very similar. It is of the "rooming house" variety, as were other of the homes along the street, including that where Tippit was thought by the Davis sisters-in-law to have lived (the third from the southeast corner, the "Scoggins corner").

This is the view that Helen Markham would have seen looking along 10th St from where she'd been standing when the shooting occurred:

You can see, if only barely, that there are new homes being constructed on the street.

This is the view looking down Patton toward Jefferson:

The area enclosed by the stockade fence along the east side of the street is where Domingo Benevides and Ted Callaway worked; this is the view Callaway would have seen looking up Patton toward 10th:

10th St is where you can see the house on the left side of the street; the alleyway is at the end of the fence along the right.

Just out of view (to the left) in the above photo is the "gentlemen's" or dominoes club where Scoggins hung out:

I also shot a 360° panorama from both the "Markham corner" as well as directly in the middle of the intersection. I will provide a link to that as well. Meanwhile, this is a wider-angle view of 10th & Patton:

Just for the sake of it, here is the "safe house" (if you ask me, there's nothing "safe" about this place ... not when it's got "POSTED" signs all around it!) at 3126 Harlandale. I'd say very few people would have fit into this place!

If anyone wants larger (640x480 up to 2272x1520) images of these, send me a PM with your email address in it. (Incidentally, the edit on this post was to reduce the image size and free up my global space. I also added the Harlandale photo and wide-angle 10&P shot.)

I will be in the area today — or, if not today, then next week — and I'll take a few photos for you. ...

Duke,

That would be greatly appreciated. I did some aerials myself using Google Earth. There was too much foliage, and the image deteriorated when I drilled down too far. I probably still have them - if you'd like I'll email them to you.

Thanks for the update on the area. A shame that it wasn't properly documented previously - or if it was, perhaps someone has a reference? The houses, the alleys, the Abundant Life Building?

Send squad over here to Tenth and Crawford to check out this church basement.

Sounds like the cops thought it had a basement.

- lee

Got 'em, along with a few others including 3126 Harlandale (mace-less!). More on them later ....

Duke

... The main purpose of the Tippit shooting was to draw as many police away from Dealey Plaza as possible.[/b] That is, it was a diversion, plain and simple. If you check officers' reports and testimonies, you'll see that that worked as well!

Given the magnitude of the crime downtown, can you think of anything less than killing a cop that would draw sufficient attention to virtually empty DP of cops and allow anyone who was involved to escape.

An excellent and "almost" original concept, which could have merit. At least worthy of mention.

You may wish to check into the other three or so items which were also occurring, which if recalled correctly included a bank holdup, a fire, and I believe that it was a bomb at the YMCA.

(these three items along with the RMN in Dallas eliminate the "original" concept for the idea)

I don't recall seeing those items mentioned in the DPD tapes — there were plenty of other incidents that officers were told to ignore — but I'll look into them. The question remains, tho': how many officers left their posts in Dealey Plaza, with or without notification, in person or by radio, and responded to them? If memory serves, the answer is "nineteen" with respect to the Tippit call.

Thomas,

My next trip to Dallas will consist of my taking many photos in the area of the Tippit killing [especially of the driveway and area behind the house and driveway there], and requesting access to the old Abundant Life Temple basement. Even if a bribe is required, I want to see the basement, where it seems very likely that Tippit's killer hid out until it was 'discovered' that the 'real' killer was in the theatre [The Abundant Life moved since then, but I believe the building remains].

One wonders about how much radio communication went on back then. There is the Mathers / Tippit / Collins connection. And Vaganov was also in Oak Cliff - with no alibi until 1:00pm. Maybe they were panicking when the DPD were swooping down on the Abundant Life Building, but the fact is, based upon the dictabelt transcripts, it does not appear that there would have been time to perform the search.

Austin was a Bircher. There was that letter to Garrison which alleged that Tippit was a homosexual. Olsen was in Oak Cliff and guarding an estate. Hicks was also off duty, as was Tilson - yet some 200 cops had to be obtained to provide additional support for the President's visit? I believe that I read that Tippit's partner was also requested by Tippit to call in sick [no reference]. Bizarre.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscalojt.htm

- lee

I will be in the area today — or, if not today, then next week — and I'll take a few photos for you.

The Abundant Life Temple (ALT) was at or near the corner of 10th and Crawford, one block west of the Tippit scene. While it could easily have been reached by the shooter — who was last seen going behind the Texaco station at the corner of Jefferson and Crawford, i.e., back in the direction of ALT — I think it more likely that he was picked up in a car somewhere along Crawford rather than having ducked inside.

Still, being inside is a possibility given the perfunctory "search" of the premises: one cop merely asking the women inside if they'd seen anyone come inside and, being told they had not, he simply went back outside, where he stood, leaning against a police cruiser, chatting with another officer. There was, then, apparently plenty of time to search the place, contrary to whatever leads you to believe that there might not have been.

I wish I could remember where I'd seen some fairly good low-level aerials of the area that showed where the ALT, the abandoned houses that were searched, and several other points of interest were located. As for the immediate area of the shooting, as you will see in the photos I'll be taking, it has changed considerably and is now undergoing some much-needed rehabilitation, with new garden homes being constructed, including one at the site of the rooming house in front of which Tippit was killed (the first two homes in from the corner — the Davis sisters-in-law's and the next one in — have been demolished and are now just vacant lots. There are no driveways to speak of for them, as I best recall at the moment). Scoggins' "gentlemen's [or dominoes] club" is now an auto repair garage. The alleyway still exists, however.

There are generally no basements in Texas, in homes or otherwise, but if possible, I'll check to see if this particular building (the ALT) has one.

Nic

What do you think about that Tippitt death scene, looks like a closely managed group effort...I always had problems with the Tippitt murder, the number of people (who didn't look like Oswald) being the chief difficulty.

shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It looks really planned, doesn't it? I mean, it's so clean, and almost predictable. It reminds me of like, watching a Marilyn Manson performance. Designed to shock and think, "Oh, it's so terrible, that poor police officer." But when you step back, it looks extremely theatrical and staged to the last detail.

I think a police officer had to die, to staple in everyone's mind that this guy had this problem with authority, and why else would Tippit have to die unless Oswald was supposedly scared of being arrested? If you didn't want to draw suspicion on yourself, why shoot a police officer in broad daylight?

If Oswald did it alone, he managed to murder the President of the United States in a packed Plaza in broad daylight, with only a VAGUE description of him getting out, and people doubting his guilt forty years later. WHY, would someone THAT intelligent, shoot a police officer in broad daylight with tons of witnesses nearby, and no one that could be mistaken as another suspect.

Well, the WC's deal, of course, was that Oswald "wanted to get caught" to enjoy his 15 minutes of fame. But as Harold Weisberg said (in Whitewash, I think), if he wanted to get caught, why run?

There weren't all that many witnesses about, and I don't think it mattered that any of them saw the shooter, any more than it mattered that his fingerprints might be on the shells he emptied onto the Davis' lawn (not that I suspect there were any on 'em anyway). The shooter wasn't going to get caught (he wasn't), someone else would be blamed (and was!), and others would ensure that any traces he left behind were obliterated (they did and they were).

The "problem with authority" issue, I think, is an unintended but fortuitous by-product of the killing. The main purpose of the Tippit shooting was to draw as many police away from Dealey Plaza as possible. That is, it was a diversion, plain and simple. If you check officers' reports and testimonies, you'll see that that worked as well!

Given the magnitude of the crime downtown, can you think of anything less than killing a cop that would draw sufficient attention to virtually empty DP of cops and allow anyone who was involved to escape? For all the things that DPD didn't do while there, is it possible, even probable, that given additional time, they might have done them eventually, like searching cars' trunks (boots), etc.?

The main questions in my mind is why Tippit and Nelson were chosen: it was not pure dumb luck, good or bad, that Tippit happened to be where he was ... tho' Nelson had the good luck of ignoring his orders (even telling the dispatcher that he was!) and ending up at the TSBD. Did someone have a gripe with him, or was he merely considered expendable, not much of a loss at all? After all, he was only ever considered a "hero" after he failed to successfully defend himself!

... Given what we know about Tippit before 11/22/63, the context of the situation right before Tippit is killed (the president has just been assassinated, Tippit is looking frantically for someone, etc), would you agree with me that the fact that Tippit's gun was found OUT OF its holster, tends to suggest that whoever killed Tippit did so in self defense?

Actually, I just remembered something which totally destroys this theory, and just to show just how "openminded" I am, I will play the role of Devil's Advocate here: Didn't one of the witnesses testify that he/she had seen (the/one of the) killer(s) start walking away from the scene and then actually walk back to Tippit's body and administer a "coup de grace" pistol shot to Tippit's head? If so, this would argue against the killer(s) having shot Tippit out of self defense in the first place..... ???!

FWIW, Thomas

Thomas,

As I recall (without looking anything up), the "coup de grace" witness came up during the HSCA hearings. He was driving a car eastward toward Patton and watched the whole thing, he said. In any case, I have a copy of the Tippit autopsy (somewhere!) and photos from it, and he clearly has a hole in his right temple; what I cannot remember offhand is whether there was any notation in the autopsy report of "powder burns" or other indications that the bullet was fired from closer than the others that hit him in the thorax.

Lacking those references immediately, to pursue the "self defense" angle, you'd have to suggest that whomever it was that JDT stopped was a "quick draw" since the inference would be that an experienced police officer got out of the car pulling his own gun, and the person JDT "pulled over" noticed this and was able to draw and shoot his weapon before the cop — whose weapon was either already drawn or in the process of being drawn — could bring his own weapon to bear against the "suspect."

There is also the question whether the "suspect" could have seen that with the car between him and the cop. Think about it: a cop pulls up beside you in a hard-topped vehicle. You might even lean in toward his window to "converse" through the closed window (if pulling over a suspect, I can't imagine a cop leaning across the car to manually roll down the window to talk rather than simply getting out of the car, can you? Go through the motions yourself and tell me if you find yourself in a position of "control"), but once the cop starts to get up and out of his car the roof will be in your line of sight, you won't be seeing him draw his gun.

On the other hand — or, from the opposite perspective — you can imagine JDT getting out of the car, noticing that the "suspect" was drawing on him, reaching for his own gun and managing to get it out of the holster — but not to where he could use it against the "suspect" — before he was hit and fell down, with the gun beneath him.

Too, if JDT was drawing down on the "suspect," who drew and fired after seeing the cop's gun being drawn against him, one might possibly expect that, if JDT was prepared to fire in the first place (rule of thumb: don't draw unless prepared to fire), the gun might end up elsewhere than under his body, perhaps beside it.

This is hardly conclusive in any respect, but frankly, an "innocent civilian" should hardly be expected to draw on and fire at a police officer whether or not the officer is drawing his gun or already has it drawn. Perhaps that might be mitigated when, unprovoked, the officer draws a bead on you, but by that point, it's pretty well too late: you're not going to get your gun out and shoot him first.

Today (i.e., in the last 20 years or so), police are trained to draw quickly and to train their gun on a suspect immediately. This is not a casual endeavor: they don't "pull a Barney Fife" and get out with their hands on their guns as if they might draw, but to draw with certainty and intent. Drawing a gun is not a casual affair: it signals someone that you are prepared to fire upon them, and if you fire upon them, you are prepared to kill them. How many "innocent civilians" are willing to "duel" with a trained professional who intends, if necessary, to kill them?

The only testimony regarding "state of mind" is that of Helen Markham, who characterized it as a "friendly" conversation or encounter. If there were conflicting testimony, I might be inclined to discount HM's characterization, but lacking it, I'd be hard pressed to manufacture this scenario beyond mere speculation. What — beyond speculation — would suggest "self-defense," even leaving the "coup de grace" out of the equation?

[W]hat was [Tippit's] role?

From all indications, it would appear that Tippit was actually looking/searching for LHO. That LHO was ultimately captured in the Texas Theatre, and the fact that J. D. Tippit had previously worked there in an off-duty security capacity, is just a tad too much of a coincidence.

Why would Tippit have been "searching" for LHO? The only two answers to that could be either (i) Tippit knew in advance that Oswald either was going to shoot JFK or that he'd be blamed for it, or (ii) he wasn't.

Why would any cop be "searching" for anyone connected to the events in Dealey Plaza along the sidestreets of quiet little Oak Cliff? Was it a rule that killers escaped only to the south and east? The patrol districts all around downtown, including west Oak Cliff, had nobody patrolling in them; the regular officers in all of those other districts had responded to the "Signal 19" downtown, and nobody was ordered into those districts "for any emergency that may come in." Escape routes to the north and west were ruled out for some reason?

If searching for a killer escaping along the "usual" southerly route, why would anyone expect him to be on foot? To make a fast getaway? Maybe another rule was that people who shoot guns (and Presidents!) can't drive ... which of course leads to the corrolary that police officers (who drove) couldn't shoot guns, which in turn leads to the obvious need for Jack Ruby to do the Oswald shooting. But wait! Jack had a car ....

Okay, nevermind. It was a good idea, tho', eh?

Mr. BREWER - He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before

And, provided that Johnny Calvin Brewer was correct, this was not LHO's first stroll along West Jefferson.

Another one of those assassination oddities. Imagine someone who lives in Oak Cliff - and had, in at least three different residences over a period of months - who didn't own or drive a car actually walking in the area! Ludicrous! Believe me when I tell you, it didn't happen in any other American city! (As a point of reference, in most other cities, killers escaped the scenes of their crimes only to the northeast!)

Maybe 'Chet' is short for 'Chester.'

Quite so. It was my father and grandfather's name.

Here I go again ... (some parts left out for brevity). While I've yet to read Harry's latest book (having been cited as "one of Mary Farrell's people" in his Killing the Truth, Mary of course being a "CIA plant"), as per usual of late, it seems he raises more questions than answers them.

According to the Dallas Underground, by several reserchers.......

Tippit was most likely involved in the conspiracy and knew both Ruby and Oswald. Tippit was what is referred to, as a redneck and also a corrupt cop. Although Tippit was also a womanizer, I will leave out the possible repercussions to Tippit in this regards.

There were definitely two and possibly three officers named Tippit (or Tippet), including one on the vice squad (Special Services Bureau), which seems like was always one of Ruby's targets to get to know; that one frequented the Carousel and Vegas clubs. I have heard of Tippit being "corrupt," but have never heard any proof, or even allegations beyond that broad statement: corrupt, how? The "womanizing" could well be the key to how he managed to get himself shot, and at the least one should wonder if Steven Thompson could have had anything to do with it. (He didn't, but people should wonder this long before they should wonder other things.)

Earl Crater of the Pig and Whistle restaurant said that LHO, Ruby and Tippit had breakfast there on a number of occasions at 7:00 A.M. Crater said that LHO never had more then a cup of coffee.

It is believed that Tippit went home for lunch on the 22nd. Then, about 12:45, 15 minutes after JFK was shot, Tippit was parked at the south end of the Houston Street Viaduct, in North Oak Cliff, facing the cars coming off the viaduct....presumably watching for someone.

Several employees of the Good Luck Gas Station saw Tippit sitting there for several minutes. Then he was observed driving away from the gas station at a high rate of speed, at about 12:50 and headed south. Tippits radio call at 12:54 places him at E. 8th and Lancaster, a few blocks south of the service station.

I am wary of people who claim to have been a witness to things like this so long after the fact and without corroboration. The call at 12:54 does indeed place him at 8th and Lancaster, but where does the call just eight minutes prior to that one place him?

At no time that afternoon was Tippit in his assigned district and he was always in North Oak Cliff. That district was assigned to Officer William D. Mentzel.

The answer to my last question is that the call eight minutes before the 8th and Lancaster call places him ... in his assigned district! The next question is: does anybody know where Mentzel was? The answer to that one is: "in his assigned district having lunch." So if the regular officer for district 94 was in district 94, why was Tippit needed there?

Tippit had a close friend, Officer Billy Anglin, and both had adjoining patrol areas ... Anglin last saw Tippit on the morning he was killed, having had coffee at "The Old Drive-In" about 11:30-11:45. The Warren Commission never called any relative, associate or police officer who worked with Tippit to testify. Even the HSCA wondered why not!

Marie Tippit said that Anglin was JD's best friend. I have often had difficulties with the timeline presented here, that JD had coffee with Billy at a quarter to twelve, then went home to lunch at twelve (farther south still from his assigned district) for half an hour, then fifteen minutes later was already clearing a call several miles from home and blocks off of the highway.

What was Tippit doing in the section of North Oak Cliff where Ruby and Oswald both lived--not his assigned district--when most other police were concerned with the assassination and in Dealey Plaza? Oak Cliff was Tippits district, although three miles away and primarily the downtown police officers were called to Dealey Plaza. Dispatcher, Jim Bowles (later Sheriff) said that Tippit was in his assigned district. Although he didn't seem to be, he was apparently several miles from where he was supposed to be. He was ordered to move into "Central Oak Cliff" at 12:45 p.m.This order was not in the first transcript produce by the DPD and then suddenly appeared in a later transcript. This has caused many reserchers to speculate this order was later dubbed into the tape by the police friends of Tippit.

This could take a long time to go into, so I won't do it now, but realize that MOST of the districts surrounding downtown in all directions were EMPTY: the assigned officers responded to the "Signal 19" (shooting) at Dealey Plaza. "Central Oak Cliff" was the ONLY district singled out for "emergency" coverage while at the same time being one of the few that the regularly-assigned officer was actually IN the district and did NOT go downtown.

There was no reason for Tippit to be moved to that area, which was far from his assigned area. Yet it is believed he strayed over to that area many tiimes. Many witnesses say they saw Tippit in that area quite often, and in fact some thought he even lived in that area....particularly around the area where he was killed.

Quite so. While Virginia Davis denied it later (in Dale Myers' With Malice), she was not the only one on record as putting JD Tippit in that neighborhood fairly frequently. Go back to the question about womanizing.

Gotta run to a dentist appointment (some fun!). More later if there's a chance.

Allow me to interject some thoughts here:

In his book, Who Killed Kennedy? (May, 1964) Thomas G. Buchanan suggests that J. D. Tippit was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK ... there were several stories circulating in Europe at this time that Tippit was a member of the team that was involved in the plot against Kennedy.

... Buchanan rejects this theory. However, he does believe that Tippit was involved in the conspiracy. He puts forward the following points to support this view:

(1) The physical description of Oswald giving out by the Dallas Police was not accurate enough for Tippit to have recognized him. What is more, as Oswald had already returned home to change, the description of his clothing was no longer valid.

That is accurate enough in and of itself, but another question that should be asked (among others) is why anyone, even in 1963, would think that an assassin would be walking away from a murder scene!? In fact, wouldn't that actually be the last thing someone would think?

(2) Tippit was alone at the time that he apprehended Oswald. According to Buchanan: “Standing orders for police in Dallas, as in other cities, are that radio cars of the type Tippit was driving must have two policemen in them.”

This is broad speculation and not supported by fact. A review of the assignments of DPD shows that nearly ALL districts had patrols with only ONE officer assigned to (i) individual cars and, often, (ii) individual districts. Those districts that had two officers assigned showed them with separate call numbers, which translates to different radios and, therefore, different vehicles.

(3) Tippit was not in the sector of Dallas where he had been assigned the day before. He should “have been in downtown Dallas at the time he intercepted Oswald half way between Oswald’s room and Ruby’s”.

Hello? Tippit's regular "beat" was south and east of where he was killed. Why should he have been downtown? That was not ever his assigned district.

(4) Tippit violated police procedure by “failing to make use of the radio beside him to notify his fellow-officers that he was stopping to question a suspect in the Kennedy assassination”.

That once again assumes that he was stopping a "suspect." There is nothing to support that speculation since he did not radio in. It is only assumed because (i) it is assumed that the man he approached was Oswald, and (ii) that Oswald became a suspect well after the fact.

(5) According to one witness “Oswald smiled at Tippit when he saw him, ambled over to the scout car, and they had an amicable conversation for almost a minute. Tippit staying in the car and Oswald standing in the street beside his rolled-down car window.”

Leaving aside the fact that the car window was not rolled down, I don't find it difficult to imagine that the fellow Tippit pulled up beside smiled at him ... but not for any reason I've heard suggested by anyone else.

(6) Buchanan claimed that Eva Grant had told reporters that Ruby and Oswald “were like brothers”.

What do members think? Was Tippit involved in the conspiracy? If so, what was his role?

His role was "victim" and "diversion." Helluva way to be "involved" in a conspiracy, but then, everyone's got a part to play, eh? ;^)

First, I never claimed David Atlee Phillips was arrested in Fort Worth; I said that Robert Morrow had made that claim in his book, First Hand Knowledge (see the photo section). According to Ken Wilson, I was the first person outside of his own family to ever talk with him about this incident. Basically, James' assertion above is bass-ackwards, tho' I'm sure well-meaning. (Duke Lane)

Duke,

You are correct, I did have this wrong. It was Morrow's claim regarding Phillips not yours. This was very poor form on my part. My apologies.

James

As Jack White would probably expect me to say, no problem, I'm going to let you live this time!

Donald Wayne House being arrested. (Steve Thomas)

In the article 'The Cowtown Connection', M. Duke Lane claims that David Atlee Phillips was also arrested. There seems to be no evidence for this but maybe he was confusing DAP with Kenneth Wilson who was also taken into custody; Wilson bears a slight similarity to Phillips (see below) but that hardly justifies the claim.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some believe that Duke Lane is a disinfo provocateur like his mentor Dave Perry. He attended JFK Marrs classes at UTA till he told some there that his "company" was transferring him back to Virginia.

Jack

Let's get some facts straight here:

First, I never claimed David Atlee Phillips was arrested in Fort Worth; I said that Robert Morrow had made that claim in his book, First Hand Knowledge (see the photo section). According to Ken Wilson, I was the first person outside of his own family to ever talk with him about this incident. Basically, James' assertion above is bass-ackwards, tho' I'm sure well-meaning.

Second, if Jack or anyone else can find anything I've ever written not being 100% factual or not backed up by evidence, by all means bring it on. Of course, like Dave Perry's stuff, it bursts a couple of bubbles that people have inflated, but if you'd rather read and believe BS just because it sounds good (or conspiratorial), then I suppose that's your choice. I prefer facts. (What facts mean is always open to interpretation, but having the facts is important.)

Third, most of us work for a "company," be it large or small. Using this word to describe one's employer should not be — and normally wouldn't be, by a non-paranoid mind — considered unusual. "Back" to Virginia is also a mis-statement by Jack since I'd never been there before, except driving through in 1977 (and then only in the back country).

Fourth, for the record: Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy of individuals and some groups of people. Who they are has yet to be determined, and certainly not proven ... and certainly not any of the people who's stories come with "rights!"

Finally, Jack, for what it's worth: I've never said a bad word about you. Please be careful of what you say about me ... especially if what you think is true!!

If there is space on your shelf for only one JFK assassination book, make it this one.

...

I much appreciate your praise for my book, thank you. And I agree it "raises as many [or more] questions than it answers." If there's anyone alive who could retrace the items that once existed in Nagell's Zurich swiss deposit box, that'd be fantastic, but I'm afraid I don't know of any such person.

Dick,

I've always most enjoyed your description of TMWKTM (COPA, DC, 1995?) as "the book that grew too much!" I'm the guy scheduled to speak behind you that time that you didn't realize was there because I'd gotten lost on the DC subways!

Jason Vermeer,

For some reason you seem hell bound on destroying the credibility of the Files story, to the extent of attempting to smear the messengers now. Actually, I believe you are doing Wim a big favor, for you draw more attention to the subject and drive traffic to Wim's website, which by the way is one of the best documented according to many sources, where the visitors will find what a sore loser your are.

Wim let me know he is too busy now to deal with characters like you outside his own forum, and probably your post should not even be dignified with a response. However , I find it so repugnant I would like to put something opposite of it.

...

Can you be a member here and NOT believe the Files story?

'Scuse me for jumping in like this, but I think that is very possible, yes.

That discussion shows further that Wim's website and forum is not only about James Files, but also Chauncey Holt, Tosh Plumlee, Judyth Baker and other subjects. It is people like you who want to concentrate on Files.

...

Can't you deal with Wim's answers directly anymore? Or is it just that you can't stand the fact that a growing number of people, including credited researchers and authors, are starting to look through the curtain of discreditation?

...

All of those subjects mentioned, in general: BS. Right up there with the Roscoe White fiasco, which "[ac]credited researchers and authors" also bought into and put their stamp of approval upon. That doesn't make it so.

It is quite telling to me that you attempt to condemn Wim for selling a book on this important information, like any author would, without even having read the book itself yet, something you said you would do. The fact that you did not do this, makes your ignorance the more embarassing, for if you would have aqcuired the DVD for example, you would have known that it was Jim Marrs and Wim conducted that interview. Thus you could have avoided a dumb question like: Jim Marrs?

...

Mark

I think you missed his point entirely about Jim Marrs, who is a reporter, not a researcher. Forgive my saying so, but while I find Jim to be very likeable, I tend to think he's also fairly gullible. IMHO. (I, on the other side of the coin, am rumored to be a "CIA asset," among other equally colorful epithets!)

What SHOULD one think when someone BUYS THE RIGHTS TO A STORY? Wim's got an initial investment of about $325,000 tied up in the Files story alone, that as a direct payment to the former "rights-holder." If there is any validity to it, one wouldn't "buy rights" to such a story and "promote" it, they'd turn it over to the Texas Attorney General for prosecution.

Mr OLSEN. I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was working at an extra job guarding an estate.

Mr SPECTER. Whose estate was that?

Mr OLSEN. I don't remember the name.

Mr SPECTER. How did you happen to get that extra job?

Mr OLSEN. A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and he was doing work, but he was in the motor----

Mr SPECTER. Cade?

Mr OLSEN. Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able to work it.

Mr SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer?

Mr OLSEN. No.

I once tried to identify this motorcycle officer and through a process of elimination, came up with Bobby Joe Dale.

Report of an FBI interview with Jack Hardee December 26, 1963 at the Mobile Co. jail, Mobile AL. Hardee was incarcerated there in "federal custody" Hardee's wife also worked for Jack Ruby.

(23H373)

HARDEE also stated that the police officer whom LEE HARVEY OSWALD allegedly killed after he allegedly assassinated the President was a frequent visitor to Ruby's night club, along with another officer who was a motorcycle patrol in the Oaklawn section of Dallas. HARDEE stated from his observation there appeared to be a very close relationship between these three individuals.

I was curious if the motorcycle officer Harry Olsen and Jack Hardee mention could be the same person.

Ian Griggs in the Lancer Forum 1/30/03:

"DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (who rode in the motorcade) lived at 3615 Theatre Lane at this time. This was located in the Oak Lawn district of Dallas, close to the Lemmon Avenue/Turtle Creek Boulevard intersection. This is about three miles north of Dealey Plaza. Now it gets interesting. During the period leading up to 22nd November, Harry Olsen was also living there, I believe as Dale's lodger (when he wasn't spending his nights at Kathy Kay's apartment!)."

From Harry Olsen's testimony:

Mr SPECTER. Then what time did you go to Kay's house?

Mr OLSEN. When I got--when the motorcycle officer came and relieved me.

Mr SPECTER. About what time was that?

Mr OLSEN. Oh, 8; about 8.

I was curious to see if I could find what time Dale got off duty, so I started checking around.

...

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE:

Robin,

>And what is with the meeting at the garage with Ruby after the assassination. ?

Try to reconcile the accounts of Kathy Kay, Harry Olsen and Jack Ruby and determine how much time they spent in that car that evening.

It will make you dizzy.

...

So, Olsen was asked by the other officer to gaurd the house in his place because he had to ride in the motorcade. He would then come back and take over minding the house once the motorcade was over and he finished work.

Then when he arrives at the house, Olsen leaves him to it, and walks 4-blocks to Kays house with his leg in a plaster to pick up his car which he left there, but when asked why he didn't just drive it to the house he was gaurding he couldn't remember why, or the name of the cop who he had just been talking to at the house.

Clear as mud.

A couple of observations and a question or two:

Harry Olsen is lying about something that would by all accounts seem innocuous. The accounts of the meeting in the garage are difficult to reconcile because they are a "tangled web." On December 8, 1963, Olsen was interviewed by an FBI agent at Baylor Hospital after he'd been in a car crash and broke some ribs. He stated that Jack Ruby had been "no more upset than the average guy" when they'd met over the November 22-24 weekend. Five months later, Jack was "distraught."

Said meeting took place with four people: Olsen, "Kathy" Kay Coleman, Ruby and "Johnny" (or as he called him in his testimony before the HSCA, "one-armed Johnny"), the attendant whose last name Harry didn't know. The FBI found John P. Simpson in August 1964 and interviewed him. He said that while he knew all three of the others by sight, he did not know any of them well enough to be listening to or taking part in any conversation with them, and denied having done so when Harry said he did.

Simpson did, however, remember the event, and otherwise described it as did Olsen ... except that Olsen's version had Ruby approaching them, while Simpson's told of Kay calling out to Jack to get his attention.

Why do you suppose Harry Olsen changed his story, and included someone who wasn't a part of the conversation?

As to the "estate," in 1977, Harry changed the "elderly aunt" of another DPD officer to a "deceased person," and the motorcycle officer who asked him to fill in ("hired" him?) to an attorney. The "estate" was not "a large house," but rather a "dilapidated little place" that formed the "estate" of the deceased. He forgot, apparently, that a "friend" of the home's owner called to tell the "deceased" person that Kennedy had been shot, and that he had answered the phone.

The "estate" was "a couple of blocks from Stemmons Freeway" (Interstate 35E; actually named R.L. Thornton Expressway at that location) on 8th. Note that JD Tippit was asked where he was located ("Kiest and Bonnie View") before being told to move into central Oak Cliff. He was next asked his location, and he said he was at "Lancaster and 8th" eight minutes later.

The most direct route from Kiest and Bonnie View is north on Bonnie View to where it rounds a bend and becomes the eastern terminus of 8th, then continues across I-35 to Lancaster, about 3 blocks later (there is a 7-11 at that corner, where Kay bought Harry some lunch stuff). At the speed limit of 40 mph today, it takes 8-9 minutes to travel from Kiest at Bonnie View to 8th at Lancaster (depending upon how you hit the lights), suggesting that that's the way Tippit got there. Moreover, had he gone any other way, there would have been no reasonable route to 8th that he would've taken: it was just plain "off the beaten path" from any other direction.

What was Harry really doing at the "estate?"

I am curious about the "process of elimination" used to identify BJ Dale; can you expound on that some? Also note that, according to Polk's City Directory for 1963, Dale (occ: police off.) is listed at another address completely, and is NOT shown as residing at Theater St. I don't know where Lancer got that information, but will attempt to find out. I also have Dale's phone number and will endeavor to ask him at some point down the road.

There is more to Harry Olsen than meets the eye. One wonders why nobody less than the Chief of Police fired him: that seems such a minor personnel action - Olsen wasn't even a Sergeant - for the Chief himself to involve himself in. Yet, only five months after the fact, Harry "forgot" "what else was said" besides his sick leave being over-extended (NOT a valid reason for dismissal, by the way).

More later, and will add cites if I've got a moment ....