Ashton Gray

Wouldn't it now be wonderful to get one of these done, since this technology is available:

Quicktime VR Panoramas

There are lots of examples down the page that open full screen.

There is a new special kind of camera used mostly by (I believe) architects, city planners, VR people, etc. that sits on a tripod, has a revolving prisim and takes in very large amounts of data from various angles as the camera moves on a drive - this data is stored electronically and can later be used to view the image from a large variety of angles and locations - even those in which the camera was not actually postioned via interpolation.

What 'ya got in mind Ashton?

You really want to ask such an open-ended question, Peter?

Seriously, I do think that a virtual reality 360° panorama akin to some of those examples on the site above could be of great interest and possible research value. I'd love to see some done from the Zapruder location, the head shot location, even from out in the plaza. (You watch: the lone nutters will probably jump on this and do one only from the sixth floor "sniper's nest" window. Heh.)

I do have a few things in mind—and directly related to this thread—but whatever they are, they are incidental to what I believe would be the greater general value to the entire research community.

Having said that, I'm going to say something else that I think might offend some in said community, but I never can seem to get myself into the popularity-contest mold sufficiently to stop saying what I think: I think that no amount of photo or film analysis ever is going to answer the most fundamental and important questions. I stand completely by my oft-stated belief (maybe too oft-stated, but who's counting) that a meticulous and comprehensive timeline will answer more questions ultimately than any amount of time spent peering at inadequate, blurred, splotchy, low-resolution, degraded, and in some cases doctored images of subjects that often are far too small in the frame ever to be resolved to anything more than possibly an amorphous bit of film grain.

And having said that, I also believe that the photo and film analysis that has been done and continues to be done:

A. Is valuable, and,

B. Will realize its greatest value when a complete timeline is available to complement it, and,

C. Would be enhanced and aided by the kind of VR panorama(s) described above.

On the timeline issue, I've been receiving snippets here and there from one being put together by several acquaintances, and one of those excerpted sections (made up of a search on a few names, but covering decades of time) gave rise to this very thread.

What I've just been told about Decker essentially evacuating the County Courts building—and even herding all his people to the railroad tracks area behind the TSBD—is so dead center bull's-eye on where that relatively small excerpt of timeline seemed to be pointing that it's downright scary. (It also even ties into the testimony of one officer that he vaulted over the fence and burned his hand on what he curiously said must have been a steam pipe.)

See what happens when you ask open-ended questions?

Anyway, I just think such a panorama (or panoramas) with the new technology would be of great interest and use to all concerned.

Ashton

Ashton...been there, done that.

The original is much bigger, but too big to attach here.

Astounding piece of work, Jack. I shudder to contemplate the effort. Thanks for posting it.

Wouldn't it now be wonderful to get one of these done, since this technology is available:

Quicktime VR Panoramas

There are lots of examples down the page that open full screen.

Ashton

Is there anyone in the forum living in or near Dallas who knows how to, can, and will create a panoramic view of Dealey Plaza from the same location where Zapruder stood? I don't mean one with the level of zoom he had; I mean one made with a wider angle approximating this shot:

With a tripod-mounted camera a series of still images can be taken with panning, and there is software that will "stitch" these together into a single wide panorama of the scene and correct for lens distortions. I have the software but don't have the images. If I were in or near Dallas I'd do it in a heartbeat, getting everything from the Houston-Elm corner to the overpass. I wouldn't give a damn about the TSBD or Dal-Tex buildings (they've been done to death), but I'd sure keep the three buildings above in the frame, plus the Post Office building across the plaza, plus the far knoll.

I'd also love to see still images taken from each known or closely approximated impact point with the camera aimed at the County Courts building (RED ARROW)—something that, as far as I know, has never been done. I realize that the trees that would be in those shots are much larger now, but by comparison with older photos I think much could be learned.

I also realize the above is a tall order, and I only propose it in the hopes that there's someone who might take an interest and have the know-how to pull it off.

Ashton

Tosh plumlee, on this forum, said that he was nicknamed Zapata because zapata is the spanish for 'shoe' and that he lost a shoe while running on a mission.

Mierda del toro.

Ashton

Ashton,

1. Did Sheriff Decker clear the County Courts building (RED ARROW) right after shots were fired by ordering all the Sheriff department personnel out into the field?

Here is a transcript of what Sheriff Decker broadcast over Channel 2 of the Dallas Police Department at 12:30 from Chief Curry's lead car:

"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."

Here is what was broadcast by the Sheriff's Department dispatcher at 12:30:40:

"Stand by 1. All units and officers in the vicinity of the station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area just north of Elm."

Hope that helps.

Steve Thomas

Good God.

Ashton

anyone know who this is?

Since she seems to be talking to Abraham Zapruder, a wild guess on my part would be Marilyn Sitzman.

JWK

If this is post-mortem, I hope that isn't Zapruder standing around casually with his hands in his pockets:

• Mr. ZAPRUDER. I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--I don't even know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, and I was walking toward--back toward my office and screaming, "They killed him, they killed him," and the people that I met on the way didn't even know what happened and they kept yelling, "What happened, what happened, what happened?" It seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and I kept on just yelling, "They killed him, they killed him, they killed him," and finally got to my office and my secretary--I told her to call the police or the Secret Service--I don't know what she was doing, and that's about all. I was very much upset.
  

Ashton

Got a weird communique (about 13-degrees removed) of a message reportedly circulated in a usenet hotbed of encrypted messages (I don't speak the language), which, when unencrypted and stripped of padding, purportedly just said:

Zapata Revenge RIFLE

Are there creakings in the timbers? Are the mangy mutts in the rabid pack turning on each other? Or is this just somebody's cute way of shaking the bushes?

Ashton Gray

? Zapata Oil - Bush Sr.

Well, there is that. Speaking of which—since you had the misfortune of bringing it up —did you ever notice that Dealey Plaza, with Main Street, forms an "arrow," as in...

And if you extend that arrow out across the Lone Star state, guess where you end up.

FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY:

Of course, extending it further, you probably end up somewhere in Australia. (Nothing personal, James!)

Okay: I apologize for this diversion. Now I'm going to rearrange the rest of your list, like one of those sliding-square plastic puzzles, Peter, so they continue in what I believe to be roughly chronological order.

? Operation Zapata - Bay of Pigs

Well, yes, there's that, too—which appears to be mixed up in more ways than one (circumstantially, of course) with the oilier Zapata you mentioned first above.

(BTW, in the trivia department: Back in "the Big War," there was a core group in the OSS that was somewhat derisively called "the oily boys" because they kept insisting on petroleum-related bombing targets. After the war, some of that same group and their friends, through an amazing shell game, got shunted temporarily over into a low-profile unit under Naval Intel when the OSS was disbanded, then got slid right over into place in the newly created CIA and OPC. Among the "oily boys" were Walt Rostow and Charles C. Cabell—brother of the celebrated mayor of Dallas on that infamous day. When the "oily boys" were calling for continuous bombing of Germany's oil supplies, guess who was supplying Germany with petroleum products. Ahhhh, that's for another day, another thread. Back to Zapata.)

? ZR/RIFLE

That would seem to be the indication in the cryptic message. But if that is what the "ZR" stood for, to what degree, if any, does it link back to (through) the two "Zapatas" already discussed, above? I guess that's the big question. That, and, of course, how all that might link to Kennedy's murder.

(If anyone wants some real fun, try to fix an actual date for the start of ZR/RIFLE. I haven't tried going over Niagara Falls wrapped only in aluminum foil, but I think it might be similar.)

? Zapata was used as a codename breifly before Dallas by Plumlee - Garrison was looking for 'Zapata'

Oh, man, did you hit a nerve! Sure it was "a codename" used by Plumlee. I just bet it was. I bet there's not a chance in hell that he threw that eponymic stun grenade into the middle of proceedings right on cue. Oh, of course not. CIA cruds never use that kind of Tactic Resulting In Chaos and Confusion (TRICC). Let's, see, now; what else do we owe to Plumlee? Oh, yeah: the major Mafia connection; an alleged shot that would have had to go through the windshield, the limo driver, and/or Mrs. Connally to get near Kennedy; a few unidentified Cubans to be running around the scenery; and—naturally—a benign CIA-backed presence organized by Robert Bennett. I only wonder why Plumlee didn't bring Castro along.

? none of the above or nothing but gibberish

Yes, there's always that possibility.

Ashton

that B&H414 camera at full zoom, panning left to right would need only 3-4 inches of upward/downward or sideways camera movement off-center for the liomo to disappear from the frame....

Probably considerably less as the limo moved through the head shot zone, where the car was closest to him.

Ashton

Bill, your astute and insightful message should be permanently inscribed into the doors of every school.

As a complement to it and expansion on its theme should be this surgical incision from Gene Wheaton into the belly of the beast (emphasis mine):

• This crowd really believes that the unwashed masses are ignorant, that we are people who are not capable of governing ourselves, that we need this elitist group to control the country, and the world -- these guys have expanded. They look at the United States not as a country, not in any kind of patriotic mode now, but they look on it as a state within a world that they control. And that’s this attitude that they have. They’re not unlike any other megalomaniac in the world. They’re nutty as fruitcake, but they’ve got distinguished gray hair, three-piece dark suits and they carry briefcases, and they’ll stand up and make speeches just as articulate as anybody in the world, but they don’t socialize and function outside their own little clique. My experience with them is that they could be certified as criminally insane and put away in a rubber room and have the key thrown away. That’s how dangerous they are. But they’re powerful, and they’re educated. And that makes them twice as dangerous. And that’s basically what’s running the world right now.
  

Not that every syllable isn't worthy of emphasis, but the statement I italicized, reflected in ways in your piece, is the most difficult thing for so many people to understand. I described this pack of hyenas somewhere in terms of nihilism, and though it isn't, perhaps, a precise characterization, it yet is close to their repeatedly demonstrated consummate indifference to politics, religion, morals, ethics, truth (which they hate with a passion) and ideology except as it serves their own entirely selfish, self-serving, and self-protecting aims—which change with the wind.

Such unrelieved, unmitigated malign purpose and action is something that most people simply cannot conceive or believe even at the basest level, no matter how many times serial killers are caught and exposed. So when it comes to apprehending the concept of such dedicated, relentless psychosis in the very institutions and individuals believed to "serve and protect," the human mind seems to want to shut down, to turn away, to explain away, to run away, and to accept any lie, no matter how egregious, as preferable to the unfaceable truth.

To the degree that any one of us does not face it fully, it owns us.

Ashton

maybe, yes, I just find it a bit frustrating (as someone who has an interest in the south side of the plaza, where some interesting things definitely did happen) how in the general lore (understandable I suppose), it's as if the southern half is non-existent. I think some are quite happy for it to remain so. Behind the official story and the 'official' conspiracy' story is a more comprehensive, inclusive story, IMO, generally neglected or discounted in such a way as to make a wholistic approach difficult.

Thanks for the elucidation. I don't disagree at all.

Swinging it all back around to the original topic, first, here is one of the photos I posted earlier for reference to the color coding:

I have several questions still unanswered in this thread that I don't feel like or have the time to go back and collect verbatim, but if memory serves me they essentially boil down to:

1. Did Sheriff Decker clear the County Courts building (RED ARROW) right after shots were fired by ordering all the Sheriff department personnel out into the field?

2. Has there never, in all these years, been any accounting whatsoever for who was in (or on) that building (and/or its annex), and where each person was at the time of the murder?

The number of locations in (and on) that building for apparently clear shots at the points of impact seem, to me, to be abundant. I'm still trying to wrap what wits I might have around its seeming non-existence in all the literature, except as a place where Decker had witnesses rounded up and interviewed, apparently all in one relatively limited location in the rather vast complex.

Ashton

one promient 'deception corrected'.

Erm, not for me.

You went all inscrutable and esoteric, John. While pithiness is next to sphinxliness, clarity tends to work gooder.

Asthon

Yes...that is Robert Cutler's famed Computers and Automations map. I noticed about

twenty years ago that the scale is DOUBLE SIZE and have been telling people for years,

but it keeps getting circulated with the wrong scale. I have posted the original many times

but always write that the scale is wrong.

Jack

Great, Jack. Thanks very much.

So my understanding is that the drawing is accurate, but that the scale needs to be adjusted.

I'll pass it along and I'm sure it will get corrected. If so I'll post a corrected version, and if not, I'll fix one up myself from the jpeg I have.

Ashton

Got a weird communique (about 13-degrees removed) of a message reportedly circulated in a usenet hotbed of encrypted messages (I don't speak the language), which, when unencrypted and stripped of padding, purportedly just said:

Zapata Revenge RIFLE

Are there creakings in the timbers? Are the mangy mutts in the rabid pack turning on each other? Or is this just somebody's cute way of shaking the bushes?

Ashton Gray

To: Ashton, I can think of a lot of things to call Brendan, but a researcher is not one of them.

My originating this very thread and its pregnant opening (read: rhetorical) question, BTW, arose directly from the Zapruder connections that have been mentioned herein—plus, even, a few more.

Ashton

how and why did Abe Zapruder and Ms. Sitzman continue to stand erect on a prominent raised platform in the middle of the likely firing zone with Zapruder resolutely locked on the Presidential limousine until it disappeared under the overpass?

Um, because he's not a big wuss like you?

you are the atypical Washington desk jockey, right?

I have intentionally stayed out of the Zapruder debate for many reasons. But for the life of me I can't believe how oblivious some researchers are to the fact that the Oswald's were in up to their neck in the White Russian Community, of which Abe Zapruder was a member. Whatever position someone takes on the Zapruder Fil re 'alteration pro or con' I would hope they would at least let that soak in. See Zapruder worked with Jeanne Legon at Nardis of Dallas. Not all of these Solidarist's were benign entities.

Heh. Robert: you aren't actually calling Slithery a "researcher"—are you?

Ashton

Ashton...the graphic you posted is clearly in error. Elm Street and Main Street are both 40 feet wide. You can see by the scale that the streets do not match that scale.

Jack

Then an apparently popular and meticulously drawn schematic of Dealey is in error, too.

Here's what I uploaded:

Here's the same image with the schematic overlaid, ghosted to about 40%:

The original scale from the schematic is placed directly above the scale on the drawing. I can see maybe a smidge of wriggle room between the two scales—but to me it's close enough for government work (and I use that last phrase with malice aforethought).

As another check I overlaid a Google satellite image, and it also seems to check out—although the resolution, current size of trees, and stark shadows made that difficult to see an exact correlation. Still, the buildings and major features certainly seemed to align, including the streets and sidewalks. (It's impossible to show the two images overlaid, and I ain't up for any animations. Anybody who cares can do it themselves.)

If you have a better or more accurate reference than that schematic, point me to it and I'll give a heads up to the person who sent the drawing to me.

Ashton

Richardson Sr., a long time CIA official, seemed to feel Diem was a workable solution -- Lodge did not. The result is now history -- the overthrow and assassination of Diem and his brother. In this case, the CIA did not run this operation, it was run from the State Department.

Hi, Ms. Conway.

Would you be kind enough to factor in the $40,000 paid to the coupers by Lucien Conein, and perhaps explain how the State Department managed it?

Ta.

Ashton Gray

Gotta' let some of these little suckers escape; they bite and scratch:

6. Do I understand correctly that Sheriff Bill Decker, riding in the motorcade, essentially ordered his "County Courts" (RED) building evacuated right after shots were fired by ordering all his people immediately out into the field?

7. What, if any, Secret Service presence was in the County Courts (RED) building?

8. Are there any floor plans of the County Courts (RED) building and/or its connected annex, the County Records building?

Ashton

The SS may have been in the "federal building/postal annex" on the

south edge of Dealey Plaza. I seem to remember that the FBI was

in the Rio Grande Building several blocks east of the plaza. Or maybe

it was vice versa.

Jack

I'm getting the idea that the entire complex of the Criminal Courts (RED) building and its annex, the County Records building, were, and at all relevant times have been, essentially sacrosanct and above the slightest whiff of suspicion or investigation in regards to the assassination. Is that correct? Is there anything in the record that indicates otherwise?

I'm wondering particularly now, not only given the confusion generated by the various "court" and "jail" related buildings, clustered and otherwise, but also in relation to this image I received a copy of:

The green lines are all the same length.

It was accompanied by comments that I don't feel at liberty to reproduce in full, but they were from someone who has combat experience. Paraphrased, it suggested that in a well-planned sniper hit primary concerns are secure concealment and multiple egress routes. A plus is diversionary tactics where possible, and it indicated a high likelihood of the smoke near the picket fence being exactly that.

Given the dramatic exit wound on the right side of the forehead, the message suggested that entry would have been from back left, which is not inconsistent with either of two trajectories indicated above from the Sheriff's "County Courts" (RED) building, but is inconsistent with a head shot from the TSBD.

That brought to my mind this photo:

Perhaps it gives "cover-up" a whole new meaning.

Ashton

As loud reports were sounding and echoing in Dealey Plaza, as people were falling to the ground and running in terror, as his viewfinder revealed to him the President of the United States being murdered before his eyes, how and why did Abe Zapruder and Ms. Sitzman continue to stand erect on a prominent raised platform in the middle of the likely firing zone with Zapruder resolutely locked on the Presidential limousine until it disappeared under the overpass?

Ashton Gray

...and so far as we know, this is the ONLY FILM ever made by

"Zapruder"...at least no others have ever surfaced.

Jack

Yes, and not only does he keep rolling instead of ducking for the safety of very handy concrete cover, not only does he keep the subject well-framed, but he doesn't even flinch at any of the shots. He was a very disciplined boy. And Sitzman deserves a medal for bravery under fire.

Ashton

As loud reports were sounding and echoing in Dealey Plaza, as people were falling to the ground and running in terror, as his viewfinder revealed to him the President of the United States being murdered before his eyes, how and why did Abe Zapruder and Ms. Sitzman continue to stand erect on a prominent raised platform in the middle of the likely firing zone with Zapruder resolutely locked on the Presidential limousine until it disappeared under the overpass?

Ashton Gray

Gotta' let some of these little suckers escape; they bite and scratch:

6. Do I understand correctly that Sheriff Bill Decker, riding in the motorcade, essentially ordered his "County Courts" (RED) building evacuated right after shots were fired by ordering all his people immediately out into the field?

7. What, if any, Secret Service presence was in the County Courts (RED) building?

8. Are there any floor plans of the County Courts (RED) building and/or its connected annex, the County Records building?

Ashton

A general gracious and hearty "Thank You!" to everyone who in good faith has supplied resources, links, and helpful suggestions.

The bravehost site consistently gives a "bandwidth exceeded" error page. I guess you have to get up early.

Ashton

Thanks, Steve. So we seem to have it sorted out that the Dallas (City-Municipal) Police Department was in the Municipal Building (GREEN) at the address you cited, and the County Sherriff police force was in the so-called "County Courts" building (RED) situated so that its Houston Street side faces Dealey Plaza.

Both had jail facilities.

One of the other scaly fanged questions trying to break out of the box is:

5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?

Ashton

P.S. I find a certain wry irony in the way this thread is somehow managing to spawn duplicate and even triplicate responses.

Thanks very much, Jack. That certainly helps clarify things on questions 1. and 2.

Any help on questions 3. and 4.? Here they are again:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

I could infer from your earlier message that Cabell's offices were in the Municipal Building (GREEN), but if you know.

Ashton

I am passing along a few questions I was asked that left me befuddled. From the discussion that ensued when the questions first were posed, it seems befuddlement on these issues is a sentence that was handed down in November 1963 and is still being served by the whole world, without the possibility of parole.

It is the riddle of the court jesters. (And, my God, does this kind of confusion ever have a creepy, slimy familiarity to it!)

Even to pose the question—while attempting not to introduce, or invite, even more confusion—I had to download a Google satellite view of the relevant section of Dallas and attempt to get oriented somehow. I reproduce it below with four color-coded buildings, to each of which I will assign arbitrary names that comport, more or less, to those that seem to lift themselves slightly out of the bog of confusion:

RED BUILDING: County Courts Building

ORANGE BUILDING: Old Courthouse

YELLOW BUILDING: New Courthouse

GREEN BUILDING: Municipal Building (Oswald shot here)

Setting aside, for the moment, the easternmost building in the satellite image above—the Municipal Building, in green, where Oswald was shot—here is an image sent to me of an old postcard of the three "courts" buildings lined up in a row on Houston Street in the Dealey Plaza vicinity:

If you aren't already confused, even with all this color coding, I assure you that you are in a royal minority.

ORDER IN THE COURTS!

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

2. What was the difference in the jail facilities, and the police presence, in the County Courts Building (RED) and the Municipal Building (GREEN)?

Now, if I were smart, I probably would just wait for definitive and verifiable answers to those two simple questions before launching into the several thousand questions that seemed to come spinning off of the discussion I had about about just those two questions when they were posed to me.

But nobody has accused me yet of being smart, so I simply can't resist asking one or two more, while valiantly suppressing the other screaming, screeching, wailing questions trying to fly out of this Pandora's box:

3. Where were the offices of Mayor Earl Cabell? (Nobody can even seem to get his actual name, since it's as often spelled "Earle Cabell".)

4. What was on each floor of the County Courts Building (RED)?

While perhaps not smart, I can, at times, at least be prudent, and so I will leave just these four simple questions here and watch the fireworks display. Once it's over, I pray we'll all be better for it.

Ashton Gray