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Posts posted by J. William King
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Thanks for all of that, Pamela. If I remember right, the hole in the floorboard was supposed to have been found during the teardown. If Mr. Ferguson himself replaced the carpets before taking the car to Dearborn, I would think that he would have seen it and mentioned it somewhere. His reports seem to have been pretty detailed.
It still surprises me on how they treated the car after the assassination. I'm not even bothered that much by the fact that they didn't seem to examine it very carefully. After all, they thought they had their man, and they thought they knew how it was done. I don't think they knew at the time that we would still be slogging through every little tiny detail 50 years later.
What surprises me is that they actually seemed more concerned about the car than the President. Washing it at the hospital, cleaning it right away and replacing the windshield in the garage, and even planning to use it for the funeral? It also floors me that they drove it from DC to Dearborn, then on to H&E in Cincinnati. I would have thought that flying it, or putting it in a closed trailer or even covering it on a flatbed would have been a better way to transport it. Also, why rebuild it at all? Is it the only car the government owns?
Of course, I also wonder why they sent JBC's suit to the cleaners afterwards. What was the point? Maybe people owned fewer cars and suits back in 1963. But that's a subject for another thread.
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I don't know when Jerry made that statement, but Gary sent me that email back on June 27, 2006. I didn't even notice that the wording was the same. Maybe Jerry got that answer from Gary when he asked him a similar question, or, maybe Jerry got that from one of my posts back in 2006 when, I think, I quoted the same email from Gary. If I remember correctly, the thread had something to do with suspicious vehicles on Nov. 22.
No matter...the information is what is important. There WAS a Rambler station wagon at Elm and Houston 5 to 10 minutes after the shooting.
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Thanks Bernice. I had mentioned this car and the picture in a thread long ago on here. Gary Mack emailed me and said it was probably taken at about 12:35pm. This is what he wrote back to me about the picture (I hope it's ok to post emails on here).
It was taken within 10 minutes of the shooting. Richard Trask owns all of the late Jim Murray's original negatives and he interviewed the freelance photographer extensively. In his book That Day In Dallas, Trask wrote that Murray said it took him about three minutes to reach his car next to the TSBD and begin loading his two cameras with film. The crying photo was #4 (the first three were misfires), so it was probably taken around 12:35. The earliest Murray photo that can be accurately timed came minutes later at 12:39, when the clock on top of the TSBD appeared in several of his other pictures. -
Thank you, Bernice. I've read about that hole in the floorboard, but forgot to mention it above. That hole is kind of like the trim dent and the dent on the back of the rear view mirror. They may, or may not, have been caused by a bullet. I would love to hear if that hole in the floor (as well as the trim and mirror dents) were examined for lead residue. I also wonder if any photos were taken of the floorboard hole. Maybe Pamela can enlighten us.
BTW, I loved the last line of that memo...
"There appears to be little significance to the alleged location of this hole in the Presidential Limousine at this time........."If that is indeed a bullet hole, I would say that it is of extreme significance!
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Not only was the windshield not bulletproofed, nothing on the car was armored at all. Like Bernice said, it was never armored in any way until it was rebuilt after the assassination.
As for the picture, I don't think that spot is anything at all. In fact, it looks like the driver's window is still down, so you couldn't see a bullet hole even if there was one. Besides, there has never been a mention of bullet damage to the car except for the windshield, and maybe the windshield trim above the rear view mirror, and the back of the rear view mirror itself. Pamela would be the one to ask about that information.
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Thank you, Pamela. As a "car nut" myself, your efforts have always been appreciated.
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Thomas... the resolution of the film is so poor that I don't even have a wild guess as to what it may be. Sorry.
The only trouble with chasing station wagons back in 1963 is that they were very popular. They were the suv/minivans of their day and were everywhere.
JWK
JW,
You're a real party pooper.
Just kidding. Thanks for trying.
--Tommy
I don't mean to poop on your motorcade, Tommy, but I'm also a realist.
If you feel like chasing down automotive related leads, I've always been interested as to why Jada (Janet Conforto) was in the neighborhood of the motorcade route on the morning of the 22nd. She was on Atwell St and ran down a pedestrian with her Cadillac next to the Texas Instruments plant on Lemmon Ave. This is of interest to me because I worked at that plant off and on from 1979 until 2000. I also knew the victim, Charlie Burns. President Kennedy's motorcade ran right down Lemmon Ave and past the TI plant just a few hours later.
Now, Atwell is a small side street that runs between Lemmon Ave. and Inwood Rd. just a couple of blocks SE of Love Field. All that was along that street was the TI plant on the south side of Atwell (and it's parking lot on the north side of Atwell), a Lincoln-Mercury dealer on the NE corner where a Home Depot is now, and a bunch of townhouse apartments (now condos) from halfway down the block to Inwood. I have trouble believing that she was on that little sidestreet by mistake. There would be no reason to be on Atwell unless, A) She knew it was a shortcut between Lemmon and Inwood (being from out of town, I doubt it), or B ), she was visiting someone living in the apartments. I would be trying to track down who lived in those condos and apartments back in 1963.
Sorry to sidetrack the Rambler subject, but I've always been curious about this.
JWK
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Thomas... the resolution of the film is so poor that I don't even have a wild guess as to what it may be. Sorry.
The only trouble with chasing station wagons back in 1963 is that they were very popular. They were the suv/minivans of their day and were everywhere.
JWK
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That's a rather odd looking arrangement on the back of the pickup
Far right
It looks as though the owner replaced the tailgate with a ramp, probably for lawn care equipment or something similar.
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The four Ramblers are:
parking lot Rambler, with fence-shooter in it: witness ed Hoffman.
Elm Street rambler (Ruth Paine Rambler) with Lee Oswald in it. Witness- Roger Craig
Huston Street Rambler, with suspects in it, running out of the back of the TSBD and driving north. witness: Richard Randolph Carr.
Record Street Rambler. Used by a man, with horn rimmed glasses, seen in the TSBD during the shooting: witness Richard Randolph Carr
Four Ramblers, and all of em used by suspicious individuals...one used by the patsy...
Am I the only one, who sees a pattern?
KK
Karl,
I finally found a photo I've been looking for on Robin's great website, the JFK Assassination Forum, in the "Murray Collection" part of the photo section. It was hard for me to spot this photo there because it's part of a larger collage about the possibility of Babuska Lady's being visible in a small part of the photo.
The dark-bodied car with the white top just to the left and behind this "Babuska Lady" is a Rambler.
Of course, I do expect William King to disagree with me. LOL
http://www.jfkassass...album=41&pos=12
FWIW, the dark-complected young man in the foreground with his back to the camera and his left hand raised to his ear is interesting, as well. Looks like he has something tucked under his shirt/jacket. Could it be a radio?
Does anyone know the "identification number" of this Jim Murray photo?
Could someone please post a bigger, higher-resolution copy of it?
Thanks,
--Tommy
edited and bumped
Not at all, Thomas. If you're talking about the car at the top-center of the photo, you're right. It IS a Rambler, but it looks to me like a sedan, not a wagon. At that resolution it's hard to tell. In fact, the car behind it is also a Ramber, but the new 1963 model. Click the picture to show a bigger (but still low res) version. If I find a better one, I'll change it. (EDIT: Found a better one that should be showing now).
With all these Ramblers, maybe we should start looking at AMC's fleet purchases for Dallas.
JWK
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Ruth Paine never had a Rambler station wagon. She had a 55 Chevy wagon. I think the confusion comes from when LHO is asked about the station wagon sighting, and he assumes they are talking about Ruth's wagon, and he denies that Ruth Paine had anything to do with it.
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In another FWIW, I knew Danny Arce pretty well back in the late 70's. We both worked as gas turbine (jet engine) inspectors at Cooper Airmotive, near Love Field. He told me about that day in November and how he and some other coworkers went down in the elevator and LHO stayed, but ask that it be sent back up, and so on.
Although I had done my high-school senior thesis on the JFK assassiation (mostly from SSID..thanks Tink!), his name didn't ring a bell with me and I kind of assumed that he was blowing smoke because back then, everyone wanted to have an association with the event. I never did question him in depth about it. It wasn't until the internet came along and I started looking deeper into things that I wished that I had queried him further.
I know it was him now, however, because I recognized him from the pictures of him being loaded into the police car (although he had put on a bit of weight by the 70's). My gut feeling is that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the assassination. Just from working side by side with him, and the fact that he hadn't gone underground afterwards (in fact, he was our union rep at Cooper), and the fact that he was more than willing to talk to anyone about that day tells me that he was just a working stiff that happened to be at the right place at the wrong time.
Somewhere around here I have a group picture from Cooper that includes both myself, and Danny. If I find it, I'll scan and post it.
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According to Marina Oswald on Feb. 25, 1964, she remembered the package coming to the Paine house on or about Nov. 20, paying the 12 cents postage due, and accepting the package. So how did it end up at the post office (unless she's mistaken on the dates or otherwise "influenced")
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Looking in retrospect at the events of the last 50 years, I have often wondered if the United States would have gotten to the moon by 1969 if President Kennedy had NOT been assassinated. I have to wonder if an exposed scandal, budget problems, Vietnam, public opinion, or a host of other issues would have worked against the goal of a moon landing by the end of the decade.
After the assassination, it was almost as though NASA and the public in general had the attitude that the slain president would not die in vain, and that his wishes would be carried out.
It could be that this country's (maybe the world's) greatest scientific achievement was accomplished because of, and not in spite of, his death.
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The ambulance just sold at Barrett-Jackson for $120,000. Far below what the seller was expecting.
Does anyone know if the same ambulance was used both in bringing the casket from Andrews to Bethesda, and from Bethesda to the White House? These ambulances were part of a motor pool, and it's possible that two different ones were used. I can't find any photos from the White House arrival scene that show the numbers clear enough to tell. It could be that the crushed ambulance was that one if they used two.
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Re your statement: “All I said was that the first call sheet from Gawlers mentions that they (the Gawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done.”
First of all, your basic assumption is incorrect. The Sibert and O’Neill FBI report makes clear that several the Gawlers people were inside the morgue, and sitting in the bleachers, during—I repeat “during”—the autopsy.
Additionally: You may not have specified “when” but the document itself should eliminate any ambiguity on that subject. The “first call sheet” provides the essential context here. That document is filled out when the “first call” is received by Gawlers funeral home. So what that sheet records is the information from the “first call” to the funeral home.
When it states “metal shipping casket”, what the document is recording is what they (Gawlers) were told on the phone, or what their employees personally witnessed at the time of that “first call.”
The relevant question is: When was that time? Answer: 6:35 PM EST, according to the Boyajian report.
The black hearse that arrived at the back of Bethesda and which delivered the body in a shipping casket (according to Dennis David, who was a witness to that unloading, and Paul O’Connor, who was inside the morgue, and helped open the casket) was almost certainly from Gawlers. That can’t be proven, because Hagan wouldn’t admit to it. But your assumption that information recorded on that “first call” sheet applies to events six hours later, in the A.M., and after the autopsy was completed, is entirely unwarranted.
What you have done is taken the term “shipping casket” and attempted to insert it in the narrative some four to six hours later.
No one inside the morgue has ever stated—nor is there any justification for believing—that a shipping casket was inside the morgue, or brought to the morgue, after the initial delivery of the body at 6:35 EST (per the Boyajian report). And specifically, there is no reason to believe that the President’s body was placed into a shipping casket after midnight on November 22, 1963, and after the autopsy was completed.
DSL
Los Angeles, CA
12/16/10; 11:30 AM PST
Thank you for the reply, David.
The first call sheet also gives dates of 11/23/63, and refers to the burial vault being delivered to Arlington. There is also no mention of transporting the body from anywhere to Bethesda as I would expect to find on a first call sheet. My assumption is that the first call sheet was filled out at a later date, and not "as it happened". On that basis, there is still much ambiguity as to who and when the body was removed from the shipping casket, and who delivered the body to Bethesda and when it was delviered.
JW
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*** snip ***
ABOUT SOME OF THE POSTS I HAVE BEEN READING ON THIS THREAD:
Any notion that the shipping casket has anything whatsoever to do with the delivery of the embalmed body, to the funeral home, hours later, is without foundation, and is, frankly, absurd. The President's body was embalmed, after 1 or 2 AM in the morning. It was then placed in the expensive mahogany casket that was purchased, by the Kennedy family, at Gawlers. That casket, with the President's embalmed body inside, was then placed in a Navy ambulance, and driven from Bethesdsa Naval Hospital to the White House. All that occurred after 4 AM in the morning.
So anyone coming to this case, decades later, and attempting to introduce the notion that the embalmed body went from Bethesda back to Gawlers, in a shipping casket, is only confusing matters. No "shipping casket" was seen or utilized later in the evening. And the President's body never went back to any funeral home--it went directly from Bethesda Naval Hospital to the White House.
*** snip ***
David,
Thank you for taking the time to respond, however if you're referencing my post, I think you read it wrong.
I never said that the body was taken back to Grawlers. All I said was that the first call sheet from Grawlers mentions that they (the Grawler's team) removed the body from a shipping casket. They didn't specify when. I'm going on the assumption that the funeral home people didn't see or handle the body until after the autopsy was done. What I'm suggesting is that an empty shipping casket was brought to Bethesda (6:35pm, by a Grawler's hearse) on the assumption the body was going to be brought back to the funeral home for preparation, as would normally be the case. After the autopsy, the body was placed into the shipping casket by the medical team for transport. At some point after this, it was decided to do the preparation at Bethesda instead of at Grawlers, and the funeral home team was then brought in and removed the body from the shipping casket, prepared the body, and placed it into the mahogany casket which arrived in the early morning hours. The body may have been in the shipping casket for a few minutes or an hour, tops, and didn't go anywhere.
I'm not saying that there wasn't body alteration. The Navy hearse arrived at 7:17, yet wasn't unloaded until 8pm, which would have given someone plenty of time to do the deed. It also makes more sense, to me anyway, to do that at a hospital instead of on an airplane.
As I said, it's just a theory.
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Fair enough, Duke. I'll admit that my research techniques may not be the norm, but while I use reports and articles from other researchers as a starting point, I try to use them to find actual materials such as photos and documents to form my own conclusions. I also, rightly or wrongly, try to put myself "into the heads" of those present and use some good old fashion horse sense to try and determine why things were done the way they were done.
I try to recognize that everyone involved were very emotional and confused with the situation. A President had just been killed. They were involved personally, and communications back in 1963 were archaic at best. Rumors and misinformation were the norm in this situation. Times may not be accurate. Statements may omit important (to us now) information or simple human error and good old "CYA" thinking have contributed to the confusion to what we have now.
I've always been given to understand that the idea behind Occam's Razor is not, as some people tend to characterize it, that "the simplest explanation is usually the best" as in "it must be the way it happened," but rather "don't complicate things unnecessarily," as in "don't confuse people with every detail when a synopsis will do."I tend to think of Occam's Razor as the former. The simplest explanation is usually the best. Right or wrong, that is the way it was intended.
Why (if I remember its contents correctly) would USSS agents go out to "escort" an obviously empty casket into the morgue before the Boss's body was even brought in, and then, if they had and recognized the error (or knew what they were doing at the onset: carrying in for the undertakers), carry on as if that empty casket was the Dallas casket?I'm going to assume that when a funeral home goes out on a first call, they take a hearse and a temporary casket to transport the remains back to the funeral home. So whatever the case, the Gawler people arrived at Bethesda in a hearse which probably had a casket in the back, along with four undertakers, probably wearing black suits as undertakers are likely to do.
Again, I'm trying to put myself into the heads of those involved. If I were a SS agent at Bethesda, and I knew "The Boss" was coming, and saw a hearse pull into the loading dock, I would assume it was him and order the sailors to bring the casket inside along with escorting it. If they went out there, and found that it was the funeral home bringing an empty casket, I would probably go back inside with it. I guess you could call that escorting.
Then there is the question of why, if the body was removed from a metal shipping casket (by others unseen by the mortician) prior to the body's funeral prep, was an "interim" casket used if the final one was already on-site? Why put it in anything ... in a morgue?From Gawler's first call document, I was under the assumption that the undertakers were the ones who removed it from the shipping casket (or it was done in their presence). Are there any statements or documents that detail opening a shipping casket and removing the President's body upon arrival? Prior to the autopsy? Most of the documents I've seen simply say that they removed the President's body from "the casket", and don't specify what kind of casket it was. I'm not saying there are no such documents. I'm just saying that I haven't run across any so far in my limited searching.
Also, the final casket, according to the first call sheet, arrived at 2am. Again, I'm guessing that after the autopsy, the President was placed in the shipping casket thinking he was going to be transported back to the funeral home. At some point, the decision was made to do the preparations at Bethesda (which probably had the needed materials), and he was then removed from the temporary casket, prepared, and then placed into the final casket which had arrived by that time.
I don't have any concrete evidence to back any of this up. I'm just trying to come up with a plausible scenario using what's available, and filling in the rest using horse sense. And it does explain the two hearses and two caskets arriving 30 minutes apart and the statements by Gawler. Don't consider it serious research, however.
JWK
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After doing some reading up on the subject, and being armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, I humbly submit an "Occam's razor" sequence of events.
Gawler Funeral home receives a call at 4:25pm EST (MD129) to go to Bethesda to handle the President's funeral preparations. This being a "first call" situation, they take a hearse and a shipping casket with them, assuming that the body will be taken back to the funeral home for preparation as would normally be the case. Four people (Mr. Van Heasen, Mr. Stroblz, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Hagen) are in the hearse. Being a funeral home and considering the circumstances, they were probably wearing suits and carrying the smocks to be put on over the suits during pickup and transportation procedures. These four men may be the "men in suits" witnessed getting out of the hearse, possibly accompanied by a couple of agents picked up when trying to pass through the hospital gates. This is most likely the 6:35pm sighting. The empty shipping casket is carried inside by the sailors.
The President's casket arrives by ambulance at 6:55pm and after dropping Mrs. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy off at the front door, is driven around back to unload the President's body in the bronze Dallas casket at 7:17pm (time, according to Lifton).
I have no idea why 45 minutes pass, as reported by Lt. Byrd (MD163). It's possible that preparations for the autopsy, and gathering of personnel were being conducted and the body was left in the casket until everything was ready. It's also possible that this is when the body alteration, if any, was done. Doing it at the hospital makes more sense than doing it on the airplane.
After the autopsy, the body was placed in the shipping casket to be transported back to Gawler Funeral Home, which would be standard procedure in a normal death, but it was decided to do the preparations at Bethesda. The four men from Gawler were brought in, and had to remove Kennedy's body from the shipping casket and start their work. I'm also guessing that some time had passed between the end of the autopsy and the beginning of the embalming and preparation.
MD129 mentions the mahogany casket being delivered at 2am, which may account for the third casket report. It's possible that it may have come earlier, but the Gawler team at Bethesda didn't actually see it untl 2am.
As I said, this is sort of an "Occam's Razor" approach to the timeline. Feel free to poke holes in it all you wish. I just have the feeling that the whole "body in the shipping casket" thing may have it's origins with the mention of it in MD129 and the accounts of the Gawler team. It's my feeling that the shipping casket was only used for a short time, between the end of the autopsy and the embalming.
JWK
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William here isTom's written descriptions of the wounds he saw fwit..b
Thank you, Bernice. Am I wrong in assuming that the other document you have in the previous post is from the funeral home? Or is that a government document that the hospital uses for a death? That is what made me think that maybe the President's body was placed in the shipping casket after the autopsy, then removed from it by the funeral home personnel for the preparation work.
I find it interesting that Mr. Robinson stated he "thinks skull full of plaster of paris". I'm assuming that he means that he didn't do it himself. I wonder who did?
As for the time discrepancies, my statements wouldn't explain the 6:35/6:55 differences, but might explain the 6:55/8:00 time problem.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't something funny going on. Especially since there are at least two bodies being delivered. However, I also realize that people's emotions and excitement were running very high at the time, and sometime as simple as resetting a watch might be causing lots of confusion with us, now. Just trying to rule out simple human error so we can concentrate on the real issues.
One other thing, however. Early on, there were reports from Dallas about a Secret Service agent being killed. One station even said it was a "confirmed report". I've always dismissed this as confused reporting at the time, but now I'm wondering if that may have been the other casket?
JWK
hi william i really do not know good question, i will ask d.l..he should be able to set me straight, i have enlarged it and i cannot, before see the very top,but at the bottom it simply has a number, also will have a look at mfs it probably was found there or the history achive in the first place, i understand, human emotions especially under any type of a sudden death situation,one can become completely at a loss of even recall for some time after, and those involved do go about their duties as robots, but not funtioning on all levels consciously, but doing what needs to be on a form of automatic drive,that sets in, the subconscious takes over,...the ss death report was also in the newspapers as well as telly and radio, before it was found to be incorrect but there are still some and articles out there as well as research that still put it forth, it is after all in the end up to the individual what they believe , question and discard...here below i enlarged it for you, it may help in seeing a closer look, thanks take care b..ps here also is the bill for the coffin...fyi..
Thanks Bernice,
I've seen the O'Neil bill for the bronze casket before, and that is from Dallas. The second document appears to be from the Washington funeral home detailing their items. It was also filled out afterward, as it mentions that the vault was delivered to Arlington.
From what I gather from the document, the funeral home did the preparations at Bethesda, starting around 11pm. They removed the body from a metal shipping casket, but this was after the autopsy, which is why I'm figuring that it was a temporary container. It doesn't imply that he arrived at Bethesda in the shipping casket. The mahogany casket arrived at 2am and I'm assuming that he was placed into it at that time.
JWK
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William here isTom's written descriptions of the wounds he saw fwit..b
Thank you, Bernice. Am I wrong in assuming that the other document you have in the previous post is from the funeral home? Or is that a government document that the hospital uses for a death? That is what made me think that maybe the President's body was placed in the shipping casket after the autopsy, then removed from it by the funeral home personnel for the preparation work.
I find it interesting that Mr. Robinson stated he "thinks skull full of plaster of paris". I'm assuming that he means that he didn't do it himself. I wonder who did?
As for the time discrepancies, my statements wouldn't explain the 6:35/6:55 differences, but might explain the 6:55/8:00 time problem.
I'm not trying to say that there isn't something funny going on. Especially since there are at least two bodies being delivered. However, I also realize that people's emotions and excitement were running very high at the time, and sometime as simple as resetting a watch might be causing lots of confusion with us, now. Just trying to rule out simple human error so we can concentrate on the real issues.
One other thing, however. Early on, there were reports from Dallas about a Secret Service agent being killed. One station even said it was a "confirmed report". I've always dismissed this as confused reporting at the time, but now I'm wondering if that may have been the other casket? It may also explain reports of other activity taking place on the opposite side of the plane when it landed at Andrews.
JWK
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I don't know enough about the casket incidents to give an informed opinion, but I would like to offer up some points of discussion.
Is it possible that some of the time discrepancies may have originated from the times coming from the Dallas teams, who's watches may have still been on central time? Considering what was going on, I'm guessing that resetting their watches to eastern time may have been a low priority and something that some of the team may have forgotten to do.
Also, is it possible that some of the casket deliveries may have been empty caskets being brought in?
The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it?
JWK
Connally's flinch
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by J. William King
Is this the same "Mike Rago/Bob Ringler" who's already been banned on DP Forum and a few others as well? His writing style (what I've seen of it anyway) reminds me of some of the disinformation authors over at the IMDB trying to influence newcomers on the "JFK" movie board.
Funny...when he was banned on DP his name was "Bob Ringler". Now that he's here, his last name is "Rago". Sounds a lot like "Drago", one of DP's founders. I wonder if his name on the next board will be "Impkin"?