Mike Williams
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Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.
Hi folks,
The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.
Tony,
How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?
This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.
Mike
Mike,
If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )
This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.
If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.
If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.
T.L. Baker's report:
"Captain Fritz, Dets. Boyd and Sims and several other officers took the freight elevator and stopped on the second floor and found officers already on this floor. They also found officers on the 3rd, 4th and proceeded to the 5th floor, and made a search along the front and west windows and then went up to the 6th floor. Some of the officers got off to search this floor and Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd went to the 7th floor and began the search there. At 1:15PM Deputy Sheriff, Luke S. Mooney, found the empty rounds on the floor under the southeast window, and Captain Fritz was notified. He inspected the scene and placed Dets. Johnson and Montgomery in charge of the scene where the empty rounds were found to wait the arrival of Lt. Day of the Crime Lab. He then instigated a thorough search of the entire floor from east to west. At 1:20PM Lt. Day arrived and Johnson and Montgomery assisted him."
To suggest that Fritz wasn't even in the building when the shells were found is nonsense. Fritz was at the TSBD no later than 12:58PM. If Mooney claims to have seen Fritz out the window when he found the empty hulls then Luke Mooney is, unfortunately, a xxxx.
Lee
Lee,
So let me ask you, just for the sake of argument. Why would he then have to be a xxxx, could he not just be mistaken?
What good reason would he have for lying? Its ridiculous to accuse someone of this when there is no cause even for it.
Okay Mike. You and Martin are right. He MAY have been mistaken. I should have said IMO he lied.
However, you were the one that called him 2 years ago and he was promoting this "mistake." And, if you'd have done your homework you could have put him straight on the matter couldn't you? Instead, you hadn't done your homework and now you are promoting this mistake as a "fact" as well.
As far as asking me "what good reason he would have for lying?" Why are you asking me? For the life of me I don't know why anyone from the DPD lied over the course of that weekend and beyond, but you know what?
They did...
Lee,
I still wonder if in fact Fritz was in the building when the casings were found. Really though it was needless to the original point. Alyea was not on the sixth floor when the casings were found, as he claimed to have been.
I would wonder why Mooney says he saw Fritz on the ground if in fact Fritz was in the building?
he stated that in his WC testimony, and in the call with me two years ago. Is it possible he is mistaken, sure it is. Is it just as possible others are, of course.
I just refuse to put a sinister turn on something causing a mistake to be called a lie, until there is an intention placed on it. If it is made to intentionally mislead then by all means, but to what end would this lie serve purpose? None None at all. If he was incorrect, and he may well be, it certainly does not mean he lied intentionally.
As for my doing my homework, What I was examining had little to do with where Fritz was, or was not. I simply asked for and received clarification about the placement of the casings.
Had you done your homework, as I said you would realize that Alyea was mistaken about being on the 6th when the casings were found, which was the whole point I was making.
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Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.
Hi folks,
The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.
Tony,
How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?
This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.
Mike
Mike,
If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )
This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.
If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.
If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.
T.L. Baker's report:
"Captain Fritz, Dets. Boyd and Sims and several other officers took the freight elevator and stopped on the second floor and found officers already on this floor. They also found officers on the 3rd, 4th and proceeded to the 5th floor, and made a search along the front and west windows and then went up to the 6th floor. Some of the officers got off to search this floor and Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd went to the 7th floor and began the search there. At 1:15PM Deputy Sheriff, Luke S. Mooney, found the empty rounds on the floor under the southeast window, and Captain Fritz was notified. He inspected the scene and placed Dets. Johnson and Montgomery in charge of the scene where the empty rounds were found to wait the arrival of Lt. Day of the Crime Lab. He then instigated a thorough search of the entire floor from east to west. At 1:20PM Lt. Day arrived and Johnson and Montgomery assisted him."
To suggest that Fritz wasn't even in the building when the shells were found is nonsense. Fritz was at the TSBD no later than 12:58PM. If Mooney claims to have seen Fritz out the window when he found the empty hulls then Luke Mooney is, unfortunately, a xxxx.
Lee
Lee,
So let me ask you, just for the sake of argument. Why would he then have to be a xxxx, could he not just be mistaken?
What good reason would he have for lying? Its ridiculous to accuse someone of this when there is no cause even for it.
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consider the shadows
KK
I don't think so. Have you ever seen a live WCC 6.5mm round?
Todd,
Quite right as the bullet is 1 1/8" long and round nosed to boot!
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Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.
Hi folks,
The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.
Tony,
How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?
This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.
Mike
Mike,
If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )
This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.
If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.
If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.
Tony,
If I recall correctly, the shells were discovered at 1:12PM. I believe this was the time that the crime scene guys were called to the building in regard to the shells being found. I believe one of them states as much in his testimony.
Let me have a bit of a closer read of your article, and I will post any questions I might have from there.
I am glad to see that you are one who appears to be more worried about getting it right, than being right. It is an excellent quality.
Mike
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Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.
Hi folks,
The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.
Tony,
How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?
This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.
Mike
Mike
Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):
"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."
Lee
Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.
Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.
Correct, Mike. Mooney makes it quite clear he was alone when he found the shells. Next upon the scene was Gerald Hill.
Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?
Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through---there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.
In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.
Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.
The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.
So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----
Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.
Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?
Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.
Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?
Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.
Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?
Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?
Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.
Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.
Mike,
Your objection is correct that Alyea is wrong about Fitz being there in the building when the shells were found, but Alyea is right about the shells being moved before they were photographed by the crime lab officer.
You are wrong however in saying that Mooney said the shells were in the same postiion in the photographs as he found them, as TA points out:
Deputy Sheriff Mooney was the first person to see the spent cartridges on the floor and he was the man who said he saw Captain Fritz pick up the cartridges and examine them. During his testimony before the Warren Commission he was shown Commission Exhibit 510 and he told them that he thought that he remembered cartridge "B" being a little closer to cartridge "C" than it appeared to be in the photograph.
They can't be in the same position in the photos as he found them if two of them were closer. It's either one way or the other. If they were closer, then they were moved.
Also, I'd like to mention to Tony that his early references to the Dallas Police at the scene should note that most of the officers who stampeeded the crime scene were not Dallas policeman but County Sheriff's officers, including Luke Mooney, Roger Criag and the guy who found the rifle. They didn't work for Fritz or Curry but answered to Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker.
In addition, Tony offers up the options that Captain Fritz was too well trained and educated law enforcement officer to disturb the crime scene before it could be photographed, and therefore Alyea had to be mistaken or lying.
The other option isn't that the Dallas cops were buffons, but rather they intentionally disturbed the crime scene on purpose, and did so under the leadership of the top crime scene bull - Capt. Fritz. And please note that after disturbing the shells at the Sniper's Nest, checking out the rifle, requesting the shells be brought to him and getting the name of Oswald from Truly as a missing worker, Fritz goes across the street to visit his old friend Sheriff Bill Decker before going back to his office. Is there a report on what Fritz and Decker discussed at 1:30 PM that day?
Then again, maybe Fritz didn't pick up the shells before anyone photographed them, as Alyea says that he got the whole scene on film, and then fed the film out the window to someone who took it to be processed immediately. What happened to that film of the undisturbed sniper's nest and shells?
Also note that Luke Mooney and other first arrivals did oral history recordings for the Sixth Floor Oral History Project. Has anyone checked to see if they say anything more about what happened.
Bill Kelly
Bill,
At the time of my talking to Mooney, I was attempting to clarify some of the things we are discussing. I asked him about the testimony issues, and his reply was quite simple. The angle of the photographs made the placement of the shells seem a bit different. He also told me that during his testimony he was shown a photo taken from a bit of a different angle, and that the shell placement did seem to be consistent with what he found.
Someone may want to contact Mooney and see if the story is the same. Just a thought. He was alive, and quite well, still living in Texas as of two years ago.
I also specifically asked him when Fritz had picked up the shells, be it before or after the photos. He told me he was unsure, but believed it was after, simply because the photos seemed to reflect what he saw when he discovered the shells.
Part of my digging into all this revolved around the fact that we know the ejection pattern of the M/C rifle. We also know the placement of the boxes in the snipers nest. This could give us some indication as to the order of shots. 1 early and 2 later as the majority of witnesses seemt o claim. Perhaps one day I will get back to that examination.
Mike
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Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.
Hi folks,
The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.
Tony,
How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?
This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.
Mike
Mike
Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):
"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."
Lee
Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.
Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.
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Mike, I realize that as late as Friday night, the DPD hadn't ruled out OTHER "30 caliber" weapons as well...after all, they picked up Frazier's .303 Enfield, didn't they? BUT the big distinguishing feature is that the military-derived "30 calibers" are ALL bolt-action, while the "Western-style" or "cowboy" 30 calibers were almost ALL either Winchester or Marlin 30-30 LEVER actions.
That NEITHER the FBI nor the DPD caught the fact that BOTH were signing off on a receipt for a rifle that didn't exist--at least not in police custody--a LEVER action rifle with serial number C2766, seems QUITE odd. Shouldn't someone on ONE side of the table or the other have said, "WHOA--that's NOT what we have here" ?? Or are we admitting the police, who have to be able to describe a weapon a criminal might be carrying, CAN'T...even when they have it in their grubby little paws?
[Or maybe it's THEIR descendants who keep clamoring for the banning of all SEMIautomatic weapons...because they can't tell the difference between a semi and a full auto?]
Mark,
I certainly hear ya!
Obviously with the serial number they are talking about he MC, but why anyone would refer to that as a lever gun rather than a bolt action is beyond me.
Mike
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During WW2 I could not speculate on the recruiting standards, but you may well be right.
In facr most Texans dont believe they are the United States, and frankly they hate to admit they are part of the US!
However most do recognize that Indiana is not out of the country.
When he had luch would not be as big a thought as whether he could tell time, give the mish mosh of his testimony.
Best leave it there Mike. We're hijacking the thread a little because Thomas wanted to know who else didn't watch the motorcade. I think we've established that Jack D was one of them.
As a final thought from me...
...I think Jack could follow orders very well even if he was portrayed as a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
Roger that my friend! I agree!
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Just curious.
Oswald?
Who else?
--Thomas
Jack Dougherty. Said he wanted to see the president but the crowd was too big.
Jack obviously didn't think to look out of one of the large windows on the fifth floor he says he was on when the motorcade went by, unlike Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman who did watch it from the fifth floor windows. Funnily enough these are three people that Jack didn't see (or hear) on the same floor as himself...
...and they didn't see (or hear) him.
If he was even on the first floor. Jack seems to be geographically challenged. He did not even know Indiana was in the US!
Com on now.....
Indiana is where now?
Mike, Roy Truly trusted Jack D to open the TSBD every morning. He had the keys to the building. He was the first in there each and every day. Don't believe everything you hear, or read, about big & slow Jack Dougherty.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
Further he does not even seem to know if the shots were before lunch or after.
The guys is clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Well they let this guy into your armed forces in the first place. Doesn't say much for the recruitment standards does it?
And in all honesty, I've met quite a few Texans Mike. I'm also married to one. They do seem to think that the United States is Texas.
And your second point would depend upon when he had lunch would it not?
During WW2 I could not speculate on the recruiting standards, but you may well be right.
In facr most Texans dont believe they are the United States, and frankly they hate to admit they are part of the US!
However most do recognize that Indiana is not out of the country.
When he had luch would not be as big a thought as whether he could tell time, give the mish mosh of his testimony.
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Just curious.
Oswald?
Who else?
--Thomas
Jack Dougherty. Said he wanted to see the president but the crowd was too big.
Jack obviously didn't think to look out of one of the large windows on the fifth floor he says he was on when the motorcade went by, unlike Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman who did watch it from the fifth floor windows. Funnily enough these are three people that Jack didn't see (or hear) on the same floor as himself...
...and they didn't see (or hear) him.
If he was even on the first floor. Jack seems to be geographically challenged. He did not even know Indiana was in the US!
Com on now.....
Indiana is where now?
Mike, Roy Truly trusted Jack D to open the TSBD every morning. He had the keys to the building. He was the first in there each and every day. Don't believe everything you hear, or read, about big & slow Jack Dougherty.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
Further he does not even seem to know if the shots were before lunch or after.
The guys is clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
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Just curious.
Oswald?
Who else?
--Thomas
Jack Dougherty. Said he wanted to see the president but the crowd was too big.
Jack obviously didn't think to look out of one of the large windows on the fifth floor he says he was on when the motorcade went by, unlike Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman who did watch it from the fifth floor windows. Funnily enough these are three people that Jack didn't see (or hear) on the same floor as himself...
...and they didn't see (or hear) him.
If he was even on the first floor. Jack seems to be geographically challenged. He did not even know Indiana was in the US!
Com on now.....
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Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.
Hi folks,
The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.
Tony,
How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?
This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.
Mike
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There have been various derailments, various insults thrown back and forward by various members throughout this thread (and now subsequently in other threads). I apologise for missing many of them, and they should have been removed before now. That's my fault for not paying closer attention.
Since that is the case, everyone shall start off with a clean slate. Just remember the rules:
- Don't question people's motives.
- Don't comment on people's research abilities.
- Don't call people liars, etc.
- Try to stay on topic.
Thank you.
Evan,
Very fair and thank you. Keep up the good work!
Best to you, and thank you for your service,
Mike
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I find it odd that no one picked up on the OTHER glaring error in the FBI/DPD receipt...that the rifle was referred to as a LEVER action, when it is CLEARLY a BOLT action. Interesting that NEITHER the DPD nor the FBI questioned that. I'm no firearms expert by any stretch of the imagination, but any kid who's ever hunted squirrels with a .22 knows a lever action from a bolt action. Wonder how that slid past BOTH agencies?
was there a description discrepancy in the ads?
The Mannlicher-Carcano was never available as a lever-action rifle [think "cowboy rifle"]. The lever action reference, im MY mind, goes back to the earliest description of the murder weapon released over the radio, which referred to a "30 caliber rifle." The most popular 30 caliber rifle in America, at least in 1963, was the Winchester 30-30, which was a legendary lever action rifle. The military, with the exception of the old Indian-fighting days, has almost exclusively used bolt action rifles.
So obvioulsy any gun expert on the DPD knew that M-C serial number C2766 was a BOLT action rifle, and NOT a Lever action. Ditto for the FBI. So how did BOTH manage to sign off on the receipt for a lever-action rifle...effectively signing something that ALL PARTIES INVOLVED knew was NOT an accurate representation of the rifle before them, and therefore also NOT an accurate representation of the facts?
Mighty puzzling, IMHO, as these were TRAINED PROFESSIONALS here, not rank amateurs.
Mark,
In calling the weapon a .30 cal. They are basically refering to a class of weapons. In 1963 this would have included a long list of weapons. Including the M1 30-06, .308, .300 Winchester, 30-40 krag, 30-30 as you pointed out, the .30 cal carbines of WW2 paratrooper fame, and many others.
How they could have managed to call this a lever action is beyond me. Perhaps someone with limited knowledge filled out the forms. Makes no sense to me I completely agree with you there.
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I was watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" last night. There is a scene where he has a discussion with a group of Americans living in Paris. They all prefered to live in France that America, mainly because of the issue of health care. However, one American women made an interesting point about the different countries. She said in America people are afraid of their government, whereas in France, the government is frightened of the people. What she meant by this is that the French take to the streets if they don't like what the government is doing. Would you agree about this assessment? Do you think this is a factor in the lack of a true investigation into the assassination of JFK?
An interesting thought on her part, but begs a question. Why did they not take to the streets against the Nazi Government? They sure seemed to have a different view then.
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POSTED ONLY FOR MEMBERS WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS OF SUCH, NO COMMENT...
SIBERT AND O'NEILL DRAIN, AND DAYS DOCUMENTS...CASES PHOTO BY MILES..TXS
THE TSBD FLOOR BY CHRIS DAVIDSON I BELIEVE....THANKS
B....
By bent rim, are you talking about the casing with the bent lip, or neck?
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Todd, I take for granted that you are not a parrot. I also assume that, in order to endorse these arguments by Josiah Thompson, you have BLOODY TREASON. Since Noel spends quite a lot of time on this (from around page 110 to page 116, if not more), would you please explain what documents, photographs, or other records have been published on each of those pages, why they appear to be important, and why you think they can so readily be dismissed? <DELETED BY MODERATOR> I think you just might be a more serious student of JFK. And while you are at it, could you also address the evidence photograph that appears in Jesse Curry's JFK ASSASSINATION FILE, which also shows two spent and one "live" round? Pat Speer has said that at least some of these "evidence photographs" were taken on 26 November 1963. And of course Chief Curry's book was not published until 1969. PLUS Bernice has contributed some additional evidence related to this question. I can't wait to hear you explain it away.
Todd,
Type slower. Obviously Jim did not get "it" the first three times around.
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POSTED ONLY FOR MEMBERS WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS OF SUCH, NO COMMENT...
SIBERT AND O'NEILL DRAIN, AND DAYS DOCUMENTS...CASES PHOTO BY MILES..TXS
THE TSBD FLOOR BY CHRIS DAVIDSON I BELIEVE....THANKS
B,
Quite right.
The crime scene photos clearly show 3 spent hulls. And of course the paperwork was for that was turned over to Drain of the FBI. Which was in fact 2 hulls.
Mike
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(and I am still waiting on that article!)
I have been racking my brain as to what I can write that will speak up to defend my side of the gun/ballistics issue
I have not thought of anything yet
Dean,
It does not have to be about ballistics at all, I just ask that if it is, it be accurate. Other than that feel free to write about anything regarding the case!
Mike
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I must say that while "Bloody Treason" is my favorite book on the assassination (I dont say that lightly as I have read and own a large library of books on the assassintaion) Twyman is wrong on this issue
Like Todd pointed out I saw the picture he just posted in POTP and knew that it was a shell within seconds of seeing the picture
I am in no way saying this discredits Twyman or his amazing book, he was just wrong on this issue
Dean,
Of course you are correct. We can not and should not dismiss someone in entirety because of one inaccuracy. The case is far to complex for that!
Best to you my friend!
(and I am still waiting on that article!)
Mike
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Professor Fetzer,
In the Judyth Baker thread you’ve touted as fact the claims of Noel Twyman in his book Bloody Treason that one of the DPD photos of the snipers nest shows that one of 3 supposedly empty rifle cartridges is actually a live round. Twyman bases this claim on examination of a single poor reproduction of a DPD crime scene photograph taken of the snipers nest looking east to west.
But there is another photograph taken of the snipers nest and the shells that apparently neither Twyman nor you are aware of.
That photograph is taken of the snipers nest looking west to east. It appears on page 525 of Richard Trask’s Pictures of the Pain, and can be more readily viewed here…
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/met.../m1/1/sizes/xl/
The enlargement of that photograph below rather clearly shows that the cartridge case is empty.
Todd
Todd,
Of course you are right. This theory went out the window years ago, and Fetzer knows that. Its as ridiculous as the 6 lands and grooves idea.
It was an attempt to distract the the predicament he found himself in during the velocity debacle. Nothing more.
Mike
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I will not defend that statement from Mike, but let me say this: what he has shown in various threads for over a month, is that he is doing the Marine's, or anyone else he might represent, an honor. [snip]
No, he is not. "Semper Fidelis" is Latin. The first word translates as "ALWAYS" in English. That's right, ALWAYS Faithful (or loyal). Always doesn't mean "sometimes", or only "when it's safe", or convenient, or popular...or only when we agree. It means NOW and FOREVER. Disagreements happen, but a Marine doesn't question another Marine's backbone without cause--and even with cause--never in public! Even then it would be a private matter.
Semper Fi --
Semper Fidelis does in fact mean "Always Faithful". It is the Marine motto, and relates to Faithfulness to God, Country, and Corp.
The first two should be clear enough. The last might be less so. Faithful to the Corp. Means maintaining its honor and integrity as a whole, and certainly not by any individual part.
Were that the case I would have to condone the acts of men like Charles Whitman, and the Men who were responsible for the massacre at Son Thang, the Marines own My Lai. Of course I would never support men of this nature. They dishonor the Corp, and its values.
To question another Marines integrity or veracity is the responsibility of each Marine, in upholding the virtue and integrity of the Corp.
Mr. Burnham completely misunderstands the concept.
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Of course, if you cant explain it and make if fit your theory, simply call it faked and let the conjecture parade begin. What amazes me the most about 47 years of research, and there seems to be multitudes of people that have no idea what an entry wound could look like.
There is no evidence what so ever of a shot from the front.
I have to ask Jim, do you do ANY research of your own, or is all your work just based on the parroting of others?
I extend to you an open offer to debate the ballistics in this case any time you wish.
I have a feeling you will not accept the offer, I assure you the outcome would make you look as ridiculous as you did on the O'Reilly show.
Mike
Perhaps Jim will invite both of us on his radio show to debate...each other. However, the topic will need to be expanded beyond mere ballistics, which is only one aspect of this case. Are you up to it?
Greg,
Sure thing. I will tell you that admittedly my main area of research is the ballistics, so it would take some time for me to prepare for "other areas". My main focus for over 4 years has been just the ballistic aspect of the case. This is why I maintain my position that it was a single shooter, no matter the conspiracy issue.
The was I see it is there is an overwhelming amount of loose ends that point towards conspiracy. Thousands of loose ends in fact. If just one of those are true, then there would indeed have been some type of conspiracy. I fully recognize this, and have been saying this for sometime.
I have also stated that it is possible Oswald was not the shooter, and yet we have a mountain of evidence that points to him (circumstantial).
I know Jim, and others have called me a "lone nutter" using it to define what they would consider "irrational thinking", however I have to wonder just how much they understand me, or the position I take in this case.
Mike
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[snip]
I certainly am glad that Mr. Freeman did not chose to abandon his men and his Country and run off to the University of Indiana.
God Bless and Keep him.
Great story, Mike. Freeman was indeed a hero--without question. Were you one of those he rescued? If not, is there a specific reason that this story is significant for you? I'd like to hear your story, if you want to share. Were you in combat? Wounded? Deployed and in the line of fire, etc.? If you can't say, I understand...
I'm confused as to the relevance of your reference to the University of Indiana. It is a cheap shot that has no bearing on anything. If you are confident in your criticisms of Jim Fetzer's arguments perhaps it would be appropriate to remain focused there else your own credibility might suffer. But, that's just my opinion. Feel free to disregard it.
Greg,
You are correct, it was a cheap shot, however it is accurate.
Advise taken, I should consider how I look when posting such things.
Truth is, I had an Uncle and a Close Friend that were involved in the Ia Drang Valley fight. They were both removed by chopper after being seriously wounded. I have no idea if it was Freemans' bird or not. I do know that it was not a medivac bird. It was far after they were called off. I would also say that there were several birds coming and going with Freeman, so I can not say it was his specific bird. What we do know is that he was the driving force of those birds going in.
As for my own experience. I have difficulty there. I like to share the funny stories, the occasional oddity, and at times something that might be ballistically relevant. Other than that I do not really see the point. If it does not provide a fact, explain a situation, or bring laughter, it is hardly worth the effort. I will tell you that yes, I have been in combat, on multiple occasions. I was wounded. I was given awards (meaningless really, a ribbon and $5 will get you starbucks coffee).
I would tell you that I absolutely deplore violence now. I see no winner in war. War is an evil, and often unjustifiable, entity.
So why did I stay?
This is tough for me Greg. I stayed, because I was good at it. Because my one hope was that by teaching others, they might return home intact. I did not and do not believe in the war in Iraq. However, I did my part, simply because by teaching them the right way, their chances of survival go up. Like I said in an earlier post, its about the men, boys in most cases.
I hope you can see where I am coming from here.
Oh yes, no I was not one that Freeman rescued. I was in diapers then!
Mike
Mike, I agree with Greg that you only make yourself look bad by attacking Fetzer for leaving when his time was up. If you want to go after anyone for cowardice re Vietnam, IMO, it should be the chicken hawks like Dick Cheney, who weaseled their way out of the war, and then later sent young men into harm's way to support the interests of their corporate backers.
P.S. If you're gonna tout heroic helicopter pilots, then you should also mention Hugh Thompson, IMO. When he saw what was happening at My Lai, he flew in, loaded up a helicopter with villagers, and flew them to safety. He then reported the crime to his superiors. According to the PBS program on My Lai that aired last night, his superiors not only failed to act, they ordered him into more and more perilous duty, flying solo, in hopes he would get killed, so that the story could go away. No such luck.
Pat,
I only mentioned Freeman as I received notice of his passing. Of course Thompson would walk the same ground. What a heroic thing to have done, and for villagers! It just goes to show you the feats of bravery were unending.
As for Fetzer, If one looks closely, I am not questioning his courage. Hell Pat he has the courage to take verbal beatings at every turn, look at the O'Reilly show as just one example. What I question is his judgment, it lends towards credibility, the same exact thing he questions about me. I do notice however that in excising my offending statements, the ones Fetzer made calling me a fake and other things, remain.
How universally fair.
Mike
Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
I hardly think that he would really have to lie about that. As it stands we have film footage from Alyea of Fritz entering the TSBD. If this is the case then Alyea had to enter after Fritz. So then to do we have Gerald Hill saying he yelled down to the ground as well, and then shortly after he heard Fritz et al coming up in the freight elevator.
I think it is plausible that Fritz may have been still on the ground when they were found.
Basically what we have is crime scene photos that Mooney says are consistent with what he saw. This is completely contradictory to Craig who said they were all neat in a row, and Alyea who says they could be covered by a hand towel. I might also note that not even Alyea seems to agree with Craig.
Mike