Dean Hartwell
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Posts posted by Dean Hartwell
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Jack,
Lee had made specific assertions supporting the idea of a LEE and HARVEY. Instead of allowing Jim or Judyth to respond to these assertions, you announced your general conclusion which did not assist anyone in determining whether Lee was correct or not on any counts. Even your comment on who had the driver's license merely re-states your conclusion because it pre-supposes the idea of LEE and HARVEY.
My comment had nothing to do with your previous research. It has to do with creating a better conversation among all of us.
Dean
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Dean, apparently you are not aware of my research. I have been saying that which you find objectionablefor 20 years. I was saying it long before JVB came on the scene. You accuse me OF STATING THE DISTINCTIONS
BETWEEN LEE AND HARVEY by ANNOUNCING MY CONCLUSION PREMATURELY.
How can that be? I announced my conclusions 20 years ago. My research is well known.
Jack
Jack,Your reply below does not help a discussion of whether there were a "Lee" and a "Harvey." By stating the distinctions between LEE and HARVEY, you announce your conclusion prematurely. Why not let Jim or Judyth respond to Lee Farley's rebuttal.
Lee has asked fair questions, but from my point of view, his rebuttals do not rule out the possibility of several imposters.
Dean
Excellent and accurate summation, Lee.It is an important distinction that LEE could drive and had a license, and HARVEY could not drive and had no license.
Jack
If Jim struggles with the concept of two Lee Harvey Oswald's can he (or JVB) tell usa. who the hell J. Edgar Hoover was chasing around in 1960 using LHO's birth certificate?
REPLY: Lee was in deep cover. He told me he would be able to resume a normal life
when he returned due to records generated that made it seem he had never gone to
the USSR. His meddling mom messed that up. How could Hoover ignore the mother?
He had to respond. Lee said she was a 'meddler' in his business. I wish I knew more.
b. who did Palmer McBride work with in Pfisterer in New Orleans?
Because I am very familiar with Lee's past in New Orleans: he talked of it. Lee did like
astronomy and I believe that part. He is alive and is aware of his vulnerabilities as to his
testimony. More on this later.
c. who was impersonating LHO in Mexico City?
==There is no doubt Lee was impersonated there. [NOTE: Even J. Edgar acknowledge that
the photos and audio recording from Mexico City were not those of Lee Harvey Oswald.]==
d. who was at the rifle ranges in the lead up to the assassination?
==There is no doubt Lee was impersonated there. The problem is, there was more than one
impersonator, and these impersonators are being neglected or ignored in favor of just one
man who cannot be found and who, in fact, does not exist, per se, except in files that had
created deep cover for the only and real LHO ==
e. who was at Sylvia Odio's house?
==Lee was there==
f. who was at Red Bird Air Field attempting to charter a plane from Wayne January while
LHO was at work in the TSBD?
==He did that, too. You simply assume Lee was 'at work' at TSBD. Remember that the day
Lee was arrested, his time card for the day was ALREADY FILLED OUT FOR A FULL 8 HOURS.
Yes, it showed him working there for a full day -- 8 hours -- when he was missing from that
building not long after the mid-day assassination. You assume he was at the job, but it was
a cover job, just as at Reily's. He told me it was even better than at Reily's because there
was no time clock to worry about -- everything got filled out by hand.==
g. who was buying beer and brittle from Fred Moore in the Jiffy store on Industrial Blvd?
==Do not assume he was always at the TSBD -- it is a fatal assumption==
h. who was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater and taken out the rear after LHO
was arrested and taken out the front?
==There were impersonators at the end, from Mexico City on. One impersonator who ran in
the the Texas Theater AFTER LHO was already inside==whom the FBI informant at the shoe
store then conveniently made sure was reported to the police by the frightened ticket-seller,
who burst into tears when she was asked if it was REALLY the same guy that they brought out
-- the guy who sold the popcorn shows us that Lee was already inside when Tippit was killed.==
i. who owned all the wallets that were found over the course of 22nd-23rd November?
==Lee owned one and the other was planted, just like the rifle was planted, etc., etc.==
e. who was in the red Ford Falcon seen, and identified as LHO, by T.F. White?
==Lee H. Oswald could drive. His uncle, cousin, and I have all reported that. The people who
say he could not drive are largely Marina "Sequestered Widow" Oswald and Ruth "Convenient
Traitor" Paine.==
f. who owned the driving license in the files of the TDPS in Austin?
==Lee owned it. He told me about it early on, along with why he did not get a car in New Orleans...
While in Texas, he had laid it aside somewhere because the Texas highway patrol, he told me, had
"flagged' it saying he was a 'known communist.' He therefore avoided driving as much as possible...
and also did not have the license on him, in case he ever got arrested so he wouldn't ever get beat
up by the police. Most of these questions have simple answers when you know what happened... I
assume the license was found and returned to the Texas Drivers' License Bureau. Maybe he left it
behind at the "YMCA"? Who knows? He old me he left it behind in Texas. I once lost my driver's
license and it was returned to the state bureau. (I lived in Texas myself for over 18 years.)==
I'm sorry but the evidence of two Oswald's is overwhelming.
==Only if you swallow a theory and ignore a witness who can provide reasonable and sensible answers
for you. I have stated, and will again, that there is plenty of 'evidence' that the sun circles the earth,
when actually, it is the earth that is turning, and the earth itself is actually circling the sun. But medieval
thinkers had "the evidence" and it was "overwhelming." But it wasn't true, either.==
John Armstrong's hypothesis might not be perfect but it's as good as it can be with the info he had.
==I wish he had interviewed me. He decided that, because I wasn't pregnant, I could not have posed as
Marina. He jumped to conclusions.
He missed a witness, based on his assumption that I had to be pregnant if I posed as Marina.
He forgot that Marina was all but sequestered.
She never went to the French Quarter, for example.
And I posed as Marina BEFORE she arrived in New Orleans.
Note that when Marina and Ruth Paine visited the French Quarter in late September, before Marina was
taken to Irving Texas--at which time she and Lee wept because he told her they probably would never
meet again--for Lee and I had planned to marry in Mexico -- (see the 'official version' book MARINA
AND LEE). He was soon ordered back to Dallas after the mission he had in Mexico City was called off --
though they'd promised him he could stay.
That night just before leaving New Orleans, when Marina and Ruth went to the French Quarter, Lee did
not go with them.
Lee and I had spent a lot of time in the French Quarter. He did not want to be seen with Marina and Ruth
in case somebody might have called out, "Oswald! Where's Marina?" So he did not go with them.They took
the kids with them...he stayed behind, by himself...==
JVB
a) I find this difficult to believe. I would think that if LHO was being run as an agent out of Angleton’s office through the ONI then surely Robert Webster would have been run the same way. Webster defected two weeks before Oswald and then miraculously re-defected two weeks before. There was no attempt to generate records to make it seem that Webster had never gone to the USSR. It was common knowledge, reported in the newspapers, according to him he knew Marina Prusakova, he worked for the RAND Corporation, and there seems no special dispensation afforded upon his return to the U.S.A. like the one you believe was going to be afforded Lee if it wasn’t for his “meddling” mother. It doesn’t add up. Why run an agent and then try to eradicate or alter records to show they didn’t go? I would assume that the USSR would keep their records? Newspaper articles can’t go down the Nineteen –Eighty Four memory hole? People like Guy Banister would still have records.
b. Whether Lee worked at Pfisterer is not the issue. I think we can all take it as read that Lee worked there. It is the year that he worked there that is of significance. McBride claims he knew Lee at Pfisterer between December 1957 and May 1958. If this is correct then we have a second Oswald in the Marines during this time period. The Warren Commission dealt with this by pushing back the date of Oswald’s employment to 1956.On the subject of Lee’s interest in astrology, McBride claims that Oswald knew very little about the subject. When he was introduced to William Wulf (President of the New Orleans Astronomy Club), Wulf claims that Oswald knew so little about it that he wondered why he wanted to join. Oswald seemed to use the meeting he attended at Wulf’s house to look through the political books and argue with the other members about communism. The exchanges becoming so heated that Wulf’s father threw him out the house. Wulf also claimed to know Oswald in 1958, not 1956 as per the Warren Commission.
c) Is the suggestion here that LHO never went to Mexico City within the currently accepted timeframes? I fully appreciate that he was impersonated by person/persons but when did he go?
d) It is the Sport Drome event (Sunday, November 17th) that grabs my attention. Oswald was identified by Garland Slack after Oswald shot up Garland targets whilst “burning up ammunition.” The element of this story that gives it a greater meaning is that Slack was insistent that a guy by the name of Frazier from Irving had brought Lee to the range. Earleen Roberts claimed that Lee didn’t go anywhere that day and its greater importance is that Oswald was supposed to be in Irving over the weekend visiting his kids.
e) If it's Lee at Sylvia Odio's house then he can't be going south. So, again, LHO didn’t go to Mexico City?
f) The thing that gets me about the Red Bird Air Field situation is this. Wayne January stated that on the morning of 20th November 1963 someone who claims to be Oswald was trying to charter a plane. Yes, you are right, he was supposed to be in the TSBD but if this job was a cover then it’s feasible that he could leave whenever he wanted. The problem I have with this is who was running the cover for him in the TSBD? I am familiar with the work of Richard Gilbride regarding his theory that certain employees in the TSBD were involved in the assassination and I am open to this idea. The spanner in the works is this. On Wednesday 20th of November at 10:30am Ralph Yates picked up a man who he claims was Oswald and took him to the TSBD carrying a package that the “Oswald” stated were “…curtain rods.” So, do we again have two Oswald’s to account for? Assuming there isn’t a third in the TSBD.
g) He must have worked there at some point. Even if it’s to maintain a cover you have to be there so people see you actually working. It would appear that this guy spent less time at work than Homer Simpson.
Here is John Armstrong’s breakdown of who saw LHO at the TSBD at the described times on November 22nd:
8:00 am --- Wesley Frazier, Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty
8:00 am until noon --- William Shelley --- "I saw him periodically all morning"
8:30 am --- Wesley Frazier
9:00 am --- James Jarman
10:00 am --- Roy Lewis, Eddie Piper
11:00 am --- Jack Dougherty, Wesley Frazier
11:30 am --- James Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams
11:50 am --- William Shelley, Danny Arce
12:00 noon --- Jack Dougherty, Eddie Piper
12:15 pm --- Mrs. R.E. Arnold
Oswald’s presence in the Jiffy store was at 8:30am. He bought beer resulting in showing his driver license. The store clerk Fred Moore claims that he returned at 9:00am to buy some peco brittle. Now,either Fred Moore is mistaken, the TSBD employees are lying or there are two Oswald’s. Multiple people also saw LHO at the Top Ten Records store on Jefferson at 7:30am, whilst he was driving to the TSBD with BW Frazier.
h) Agreed on the points concerning impersonation at the Texas Theater. Although we also have Roger Craig’s sighting of the “double” leaving the TSBD in the Nash Rambler and the other LHO leaving the area by bus and cab.
i) There were more than two wallets.
j) I would say that’s it’s more than possible that he could drive. But that doesn’t explain the guy driving the Red Ford Falcon. You see, T.F. White saw him sitting in it in a car park a block away from Davis Street. At this point in time Lee Harvey Oswald was already under arrest and on his way to the city jail.
k) I would again reiterate that I think it possible he could drive but obviously someone was using his driving license if we are to believe the observations of Fred Moore from the Jiffy Store.
I appreciate your replies to my questions Judyth and I will continue to wade through all this information.
Lee
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Jack,
Your reply below does not help a discussion of whether there were a "Lee" and a "Harvey." By stating the distinctions between LEE and HARVEY, you announce your conclusion prematurely. Why not let Jim or Judyth respond to Lee Farley's rebuttal.
Lee has asked fair questions, but from my point of view, his rebuttals do not rule out the possibility of several imposters.
Dean
Excellent and accurate summation, Lee.It is an important distinction that LEE could drive and had a license, and HARVEY could not drive and had no license.
Jack
If Jim struggles with the concept of two Lee Harvey Oswald's can he (or JVB) tell usa. who the hell J. Edgar Hoover was chasing around in 1960 using LHO's birth certificate?
REPLY: Lee was in deep cover. He told me he would be able to resume a normal life
when he returned due to records generated that made it seem he had never gone to
the USSR. His meddling mom messed that up. How could Hoover ignore the mother?
He had to respond. Lee said she was a 'meddler' in his business. I wish I knew more.
b. who did Palmer McBride work with in Pfisterer in New Orleans?
Because I am very familiar with Lee's past in New Orleans: he talked of it. Lee did like
astronomy and I believe that part. He is alive and is aware of his vulnerabilities as to his
testimony. More on this later.
c. who was impersonating LHO in Mexico City?
==There is no doubt Lee was impersonated there. [NOTE: Even J. Edgar acknowledge that
the photos and audio recording from Mexico City were not those of Lee Harvey Oswald.]==
d. who was at the rifle ranges in the lead up to the assassination?
==There is no doubt Lee was impersonated there. The problem is, there was more than one
impersonator, and these impersonators are being neglected or ignored in favor of just one
man who cannot be found and who, in fact, does not exist, per se, except in files that had
created deep cover for the only and real LHO ==
e. who was at Sylvia Odio's house?
==Lee was there==
f. who was at Red Bird Air Field attempting to charter a plane from Wayne January while
LHO was at work in the TSBD?
==He did that, too. You simply assume Lee was 'at work' at TSBD. Remember that the day
Lee was arrested, his time card for the day was ALREADY FILLED OUT FOR A FULL 8 HOURS.
Yes, it showed him working there for a full day -- 8 hours -- when he was missing from that
building not long after the mid-day assassination. You assume he was at the job, but it was
a cover job, just as at Reily's. He told me it was even better than at Reily's because there
was no time clock to worry about -- everything got filled out by hand.==
g. who was buying beer and brittle from Fred Moore in the Jiffy store on Industrial Blvd?
==Do not assume he was always at the TSBD -- it is a fatal assumption==
h. who was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater and taken out the rear after LHO
was arrested and taken out the front?
==There were impersonators at the end, from Mexico City on. One impersonator who ran in
the the Texas Theater AFTER LHO was already inside==whom the FBI informant at the shoe
store then conveniently made sure was reported to the police by the frightened ticket-seller,
who burst into tears when she was asked if it was REALLY the same guy that they brought out
-- the guy who sold the popcorn shows us that Lee was already inside when Tippit was killed.==
i. who owned all the wallets that were found over the course of 22nd-23rd November?
==Lee owned one and the other was planted, just like the rifle was planted, etc., etc.==
e. who was in the red Ford Falcon seen, and identified as LHO, by T.F. White?
==Lee H. Oswald could drive. His uncle, cousin, and I have all reported that. The people who
say he could not drive are largely Marina "Sequestered Widow" Oswald and Ruth "Convenient
Traitor" Paine.==
f. who owned the driving license in the files of the TDPS in Austin?
==Lee owned it. He told me about it early on, along with why he did not get a car in New Orleans...
While in Texas, he had laid it aside somewhere because the Texas highway patrol, he told me, had
"flagged' it saying he was a 'known communist.' He therefore avoided driving as much as possible...
and also did not have the license on him, in case he ever got arrested so he wouldn't ever get beat
up by the police. Most of these questions have simple answers when you know what happened... I
assume the license was found and returned to the Texas Drivers' License Bureau. Maybe he left it
behind at the "YMCA"? Who knows? He old me he left it behind in Texas. I once lost my driver's
license and it was returned to the state bureau. (I lived in Texas myself for over 18 years.)==
I'm sorry but the evidence of two Oswald's is overwhelming.
==Only if you swallow a theory and ignore a witness who can provide reasonable and sensible answers
for you. I have stated, and will again, that there is plenty of 'evidence' that the sun circles the earth,
when actually, it is the earth that is turning, and the earth itself is actually circling the sun. But medieval
thinkers had "the evidence" and it was "overwhelming." But it wasn't true, either.==
John Armstrong's hypothesis might not be perfect but it's as good as it can be with the info he had.
==I wish he had interviewed me. He decided that, because I wasn't pregnant, I could not have posed as
Marina. He jumped to conclusions.
He missed a witness, based on his assumption that I had to be pregnant if I posed as Marina.
He forgot that Marina was all but sequestered.
She never went to the French Quarter, for example.
And I posed as Marina BEFORE she arrived in New Orleans.
Note that when Marina and Ruth Paine visited the French Quarter in late September, before Marina was
taken to Irving Texas--at which time she and Lee wept because he told her they probably would never
meet again--for Lee and I had planned to marry in Mexico -- (see the 'official version' book MARINA
AND LEE). He was soon ordered back to Dallas after the mission he had in Mexico City was called off --
though they'd promised him he could stay.
That night just before leaving New Orleans, when Marina and Ruth went to the French Quarter, Lee did
not go with them.
Lee and I had spent a lot of time in the French Quarter. He did not want to be seen with Marina and Ruth
in case somebody might have called out, "Oswald! Where's Marina?" So he did not go with them.They took
the kids with them...he stayed behind, by himself...==
JVB
a) I find this difficult to believe. I would think that if LHO was being run as an agent out of Angleton’s office through the ONI then surely Robert Webster would have been run the same way. Webster defected two weeks before Oswald and then miraculously re-defected two weeks before. There was no attempt to generate records to make it seem that Webster had never gone to the USSR. It was common knowledge, reported in the newspapers, according to him he knew Marina Prusakova, he worked for the RAND Corporation, and there seems no special dispensation afforded upon his return to the U.S.A. like the one you believe was going to be afforded Lee if it wasn’t for his “meddling” mother. It doesn’t add up. Why run an agent and then try to eradicate or alter records to show they didn’t go? I would assume that the USSR would keep their records? Newspaper articles can’t go down the Nineteen –Eighty Four memory hole? People like Guy Banister would still have records.
b. Whether Lee worked at Pfisterer is not the issue. I think we can all take it as read that Lee worked there. It is the year that he worked there that is of significance. McBride claims he knew Lee at Pfisterer between December 1957 and May 1958. If this is correct then we have a second Oswald in the Marines during this time period. The Warren Commission dealt with this by pushing back the date of Oswald’s employment to 1956.On the subject of Lee’s interest in astrology, McBride claims that Oswald knew very little about the subject. When he was introduced to William Wulf (President of the New Orleans Astronomy Club), Wulf claims that Oswald knew so little about it that he wondered why he wanted to join. Oswald seemed to use the meeting he attended at Wulf’s house to look through the political books and argue with the other members about communism. The exchanges becoming so heated that Wulf’s father threw him out the house. Wulf also claimed to know Oswald in 1958, not 1956 as per the Warren Commission.
c) Is the suggestion here that LHO never went to Mexico City within the currently accepted timeframes? I fully appreciate that he was impersonated by person/persons but when did he go?
d) It is the Sport Drome event (Sunday, November 17th) that grabs my attention. Oswald was identified by Garland Slack after Oswald shot up Garland targets whilst “burning up ammunition.” The element of this story that gives it a greater meaning is that Slack was insistent that a guy by the name of Frazier from Irving had brought Lee to the range. Earleen Roberts claimed that Lee didn’t go anywhere that day and its greater importance is that Oswald was supposed to be in Irving over the weekend visiting his kids.
e) If it's Lee at Sylvia Odio's house then he can't be going south. So, again, LHO didn’t go to Mexico City?
f) The thing that gets me about the Red Bird Air Field situation is this. Wayne January stated that on the morning of 20th November 1963 someone who claims to be Oswald was trying to charter a plane. Yes, you are right, he was supposed to be in the TSBD but if this job was a cover then it’s feasible that he could leave whenever he wanted. The problem I have with this is who was running the cover for him in the TSBD? I am familiar with the work of Richard Gilbride regarding his theory that certain employees in the TSBD were involved in the assassination and I am open to this idea. The spanner in the works is this. On Wednesday 20th of November at 10:30am Ralph Yates picked up a man who he claims was Oswald and took him to the TSBD carrying a package that the “Oswald” stated were “…curtain rods.” So, do we again have two Oswald’s to account for? Assuming there isn’t a third in the TSBD.
g) He must have worked there at some point. Even if it’s to maintain a cover you have to be there so people see you actually working. It would appear that this guy spent less time at work than Homer Simpson.
Here is John Armstrong’s breakdown of who saw LHO at the TSBD at the described times on November 22nd:
8:00 am --- Wesley Frazier, Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, Roy Truly, Jack Dougherty
8:00 am until noon --- William Shelley --- "I saw him periodically all morning"
8:30 am --- Wesley Frazier
9:00 am --- James Jarman
10:00 am --- Roy Lewis, Eddie Piper
11:00 am --- Jack Dougherty, Wesley Frazier
11:30 am --- James Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams
11:50 am --- William Shelley, Danny Arce
12:00 noon --- Jack Dougherty, Eddie Piper
12:15 pm --- Mrs. R.E. Arnold
Oswald’s presence in the Jiffy store was at 8:30am. He bought beer resulting in showing his driver license. The store clerk Fred Moore claims that he returned at 9:00am to buy some peco brittle. Now,either Fred Moore is mistaken, the TSBD employees are lying or there are two Oswald’s. Multiple people also saw LHO at the Top Ten Records store on Jefferson at 7:30am, whilst he was driving to the TSBD with BW Frazier.
h) Agreed on the points concerning impersonation at the Texas Theater. Although we also have Roger Craig’s sighting of the “double” leaving the TSBD in the Nash Rambler and the other LHO leaving the area by bus and cab.
i) There were more than two wallets.
j) I would say that’s it’s more than possible that he could drive. But that doesn’t explain the guy driving the Red Ford Falcon. You see, T.F. White saw him sitting in it in a car park a block away from Davis Street. At this point in time Lee Harvey Oswald was already under arrest and on his way to the city jail.
k) I would again reiterate that I think it possible he could drive but obviously someone was using his driving license if we are to believe the observations of Fred Moore from the Jiffy Store.
I appreciate your replies to my questions Judyth and I will continue to wade through all this information.
Lee
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[From Lee Farley]
Hi Dean
...
Hope your book goes well - let us know when it's ready
Lee
Thank you, Lee. My book is available at this link: http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Men-Talking-Con...4150&sr=1-4
I would welcome any review from anyone interested. The book is best suited for those new to the JFK, RFK and 9/11 events and those undecided about them.
Dean
-
Lee Farley said:
Do we all have to make a decision here to believe Judyth and take the "side" of Jim Fetzer or alternatively disbelieve her and take the "side" of David Lifton?
Absolutely not; that is a strawman. The issue is that nobody knows how to reason about the assassination. The govt isn't going to help us, it wants passive sheeple. When the WCR came cout, the govt wanted everyone to 'believe' it and 'disbelieve' everything else. This set up a false criterion. The govt used no research process in writing the WCR and in fact the person they were accusing of everything was dead and not even allowed to have his interests represented.
So why not try a different process that actually works? First, determine if a witness has some sort of objective documentation connecting them to the events they say they have witnessed. These things may be direct, such as Judyth's pay stubs from Reily Coffee, or indirect, such as unusual knowledge of places and people. If the person cannot be placed in the environment they are talking about, that raises a red flag. If they can, allow them an open forum to share their experiences. It is up to the witness to persuade or not persuade others that what they have to say is valuable. We can then weigh and evaluate what they have to say, comparing and contrasting the statements to other available information and witness statements, and then decide for ourselves what to think.
We can also comfortably agree-to-disagree about witnesses, areas of research, theories, etc, and still be colleagues, moving research forward. We can take the high road and not stoop to fallacies of logic or personal invective. We can choose to be a team of CTs moving forward shoulder-to-shoulder against the inevitable onslaughts of the Ongoing Coverup as we move closer and closer to 2013.
May I refer you to post #2 in this thread please? That just about sums the whole sorry saga up. I doubt Peter McGuire is an astrologist or fortune teller but his comments were certainly a great precursor as to what has followed.
The polarising effect that JVB has on people's minds is something approaching pathological in nature.
It's a shame you left your call for CT harmony until post #1137 (that's one-thousand-one-hundred-and-thirty-seven)! If it had of been in post #3 (where it belonged) I would have a little more respect for your message. Instead, you acted as a cheerleader for one side of the argument over the other. As they stand, your comments smack of some sort of intellectual bi-polar disorder after previously asking me (and others) to stand aside if we weren't getting anything from the thread.
To claim that I have made a fallacy of "logic" by creating a "straw-man" and to claim it with a straight face does your own argument (of moving forward shoulder to shoulder) little good. This "community" is currently polarised on this issue. Friendships are falling apart. The invective is abundently clear in both public and private messages.
This is the second time you have misrepresented the context of my messages. If this is how you extrapolate meaning from the things you see, hear and feel then it's no wonder you have offered little in the overall progression of the JVB story. I can only assume that you believe the best way to exstinguish a fire in a burning house is to throw gasoline on it. You used the same method, of what you must consider to be an axiom of logic, with Jack White's comments about Ruth Paine.
And for the record - I neither "believe" nor "disbelieve" JVB. I will come to a conclusion as to what I think about all this at a later date. Once someone goes and gets a bucket of water...
Lee,
You have made some good points in this thread. But your use of the phrase "intellectual bi-polar disorder" is misplaced.
From the context, it appears you mean to say that another's argument was inconsistent. But bi-polar disorder is more complicated. The two poles refer to mania, or a speeded-up mind, and depression, a slowed-down mind.
I know this because I suffer from this problem. Some days my mind is slow and I am contemplative, while other days I speed things up and get many things done. It is a difference in pace but not an inconsistency. Other people with this problem suffer mania and depression at the same time or go back in forth in quick cycles.
It is clear to me that you mean no harm by what you write. This disorder is misunderstood in society and was used by some to blame a man who attempted to kill guards recently at the Pentagon. If we understood mental illness better, we would distinguish it from hopelessness and insanity, which are completely different issues.
Dean
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Hello to all who have participated in this discussion over Judyth Vary Baker and thanks to John Simkin for allowing me to join:
Most of you may not have heard of me. Briefly, I recently published a book that presented a case against the government for causing infamous events, including the murder of President Kennedy. It is called Dead Men Talking: Consequences of Government Lies. I conclude that Lee Oswald was innocent.
I will disclose my bias in this discussion: I have publicly voiced my support for Judyth.
Though this debate has gone well over 1,000 posts with many assertions made by many people whom I have respect for in the JFK community, the debate will not reach any consensus. Jim Fetzer and others have produced much relevant evidence in support of Judyth and everyone is free to interpret it as they believe. I have no qualms with those who disagree with my point of view, but am concerned about how we come to our conclusion as to her and to other issues.
I will draw an analogy: Suppose someone tells the boss of a company that they witnessed an employee stealing company equipment. No videotape or anything, just one’s word against another.
What does the boss do? It will probably depend on which employee they perceive as the more loyal or the more valuable. They want to be fair, but in reality they are setting the burden of proof for one too high to reach. If the boss sides with the accused, the accuser becomes an Inconvenient Witness.
It serves no purpose for anyone to make Judyth an Inconvenient Witness. Whoever can articulate their position on any issue based on the facts and the weighing of facts for their relevance will have my respect.
Thank you all for your time.
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I have studied the JFK assassination for thirty years and recently published some of my findings in my book Dead Men Talking: Consequences of Government Lies. My main focus is upon the innocence of Lee Oswald. In that and other aspects of the case, I rely upon my legal studies.
Law school helped me to understand to the best of my ability both sides of an issue and to use logic in selecting the most relevant facts in making a particular argument. I have not been able to pass California's Bar Exam and am undecided as to whether I will try again.
Good arguments go nowhere if they are presented with anything less than respect for those who listen.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Lee,
It appeared to me you supported a LEE and HARVEY (or 2-Oswald theory) when you wrote this:
I'm sorry but the evidence of two Oswald's is overwhelming.
Your rebuttals showed evidence to me of multiple imposters, so it appeared to conflict with the statement above.
Which do you mean -
1) a LEE and HARVEY scenario, with one man accused of the JFK assassination and subsequently killed and the other man used to setting the first man up?
2) the same scenario with multiple imposters
3) multiple imposters
Dean