Robert Prudhomme

Carrico said hematoma and contusion to the RIGHT of the larynx, NOT a hematoma and contusion on the larynx itself.

For those who don't know, a hematoma is a collection of blood outside of a blood vessel while a contusion is bruising of tissue.

It would be perfectly normal for a bullet passing beneath the level of the larynx to cause localized bleeding and bruising beside the larynx. However, Cliff, the main injury was still the tear the projectile made passing through the right side of the trachea, between the SECOND and THIRD tracheal rings.

Bruising beside the larynx but "rugged (sic should read ragged) tissue below indicating tracheal injury".

Bruising to the tissue adjacent to the larynx but the main injury was below in the trachea.

Do you see now what Carrico was saying, Cliff, or do we get to listen to your madness for a few more pages now?

Qualifications?? We don' need no steenkin' qualifications! ANYBODY can be Attorney General!

Even the old guy off of Duck Dynasty.

I'm not sure if you understand what I am saying here, Michael.

I agree that JFK is reacting to a shot when he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign, and that shot may have caused the throat wound and was immediately followed by a shot that struck him in the upper back.

However, the evidence points more favourably to the first shot having entered the back of JFK's upper neck, not the lower front of his neck.

And I recall everyone saying I was out to lunch, when I had the audacity to suggest Baker did not enter the TSBD immediately after his run across the Elm St. extension.

Yours was a good call, Robert. As my analysis of the video corroborated. (I know how you feel though... nobody seemed to understand how my animated GIF proved Baker was headed for the corner of the block and not the TSBD.)

I must admit, Sandy, that it was mostly guesswork until you posted that GIF. Once I saw the GIF, there was no question in my mind that Baker was not telling the truth about making an immediate entrance into the TSBD.

What I can't seem to understand with this thread is, instead of first, second, and third guessing whether the throat wound was a bone fragment, a bullet fragment, or a dart feather that caused the throat wound, why can't anyone just open their eyes up and watch the Z film?

It's very, very clear - especially in the version of it below - that Kennedy's hands are already reacting to the throat wound when one-half to a second later he is hit in the back, causing his head to bob backward and then forward from the force of that back shot.

So how can that be? First, it proves conspiracy right off the bat - this was supposed to be Crazy Kid up on the 6th floor firing a shot, one that the government wants us to believe went through his back, somehow zigged and then zagged, and then pops out of his throat, continues its high-speed and pristine path to do all of the damage to JBC. We know it didn't and couldn't have happened that way.

So what do we have left? It's obvious from his reaction that the throat shot hit him first, THEN the back shot. This negates the SBT and also negates the crazy theory on this thread - as well as all of the other crazy sub-theories of fragments, bones, and what have you.

Then, the doctor - one of the few who saw the wound before the cut was made - said it was one of entrance. No one - not a single one of us - was there that day, so you have to take the word of this doctor, who saw gunshot wounds daily.

Yet, this thread continues on and on and on with theories, sub-theories, and sub-sub-theories. Will the madness ever end?

I mean, when is it ever going to end? And in all honesty, how is it actually helping the research community to talk about things here that didn't even exist 53 years ago?

Michael

Speculating on the mechanism of injury, using available evidence, is far from "madness", as you maintain.

Your description of the shooting is in many ways very accurate, and I agree with you that JFK seems to be responding to one shot when another shot appears to hit him in the back.

The part I have a problem with is the frontal throat shot. I believe Sandy and I have conclusively proven the throat wound was well below the top of the collar, behind the tie not. While this does not rule out a shot from the rear, travelling downward at a steep angle, it makes it almost impossible for the throat wound to be an entrance wound; unless, of course, the shooter was lying on the floor of the limo.

P.S.

You have no idea what did or did not exist 53 years ago.

The autopsists said that the bullet entering near the EOP "tunneled" under the skin. From reading that I got the impression that the bullet had hit at such a tangential angle that it skidded down the back of the cranium.

Lt Lipsey stated that the autopsists were sure that the bullet that entered near the EOP exited from the throat.

Both Bob and I believe the bullet (or fragments thereof) could have gone down the neck and resulted in a projectile exiting the throat. I am partial to the possibility of that projectile being a chard of bone.

Some have ridiculed that thought. One pointed to some WC testimony stating the the wound was smooth. Somehow that was supposed to have shown the projectile couldn't have been a chard of bone.

Well here is some WC testimony I just read on another thread that pertains to this:

"Dr. Jones: ....There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound."

Just wanted to point that out.

I'm glad we agree on the possibility of a bullet skidding underneath the back of the cranium. In fact, with the way Humes moved wounds around on JFK's body, it wouldn't surprise me if the bullet never touched the cranium at all, and only entered high on the neck.

With this in mind, I go back to the HSCA interview of Jerrol Custer, the x-ray tech who took all of the x-rays of JFK at the autopsy. In his interview, he was quite adamant that the x-ray he recalled seeing of JFK's neck was not the one in the Archives, and that the x-ray he recalled showed "many fragments" (presumably bullet fragments) in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

Diagram shows cervical vertebra C7 on the bottom. By counting backward, while going up, C4 is three vertebrae above C7. Use the "spinous processes" (dorsal projections) to identify each individual vertebra. Counting down from the thyroid cartilage just above the trachea (windpipe) we are looking for the space between the 2nd and 3rd tracheal rings. Te projectile that wounded the trachea was travelling on a downward angle, back to front, that left a tear extending from the 2nd to the 3rd tracheal ring; nicely lined up with our high neck entrance wound and the C3/C4 vertebrae.

I still believe some type of frangible bullet was used against JFK, although there was not really any such type bullet on the market in 1963, and the first commercially available frangible, the Glaser Safety Slug, would not be introduced until 1974. I do know that many inventors had been trying to develop a lethal frangible bullet for years before the assassination, and God only knows what the CIA were cooking up.

The point to be made is that, while modern frangible bullets are quite sophisticated and extremely lethal, a frangible bullet in 1963 may have been a crude forerunner of its modern day form. In other words, while it might have been quite lethal in the right wound, ie. brain or lung, it may have been quite ineffective in another type of wound.

Another thing we have to remember is that the throat wound was described as being a neat little round wound 3-8 mm in diameter. As Dr. Jones described it, it could have been an entry wound, as there was so little disturbance to surrounding tissue. However, he went on to say it could also have been a bullet exit wound, but only of a bullet that was travelling at an extremely reduced velocity. Both this and the roundness of the wound I believe to be very important.

I also find it very important that traces of metal were found on the shirt and coat, where the bullet entered JFK's back, but no traces of metal were found on the "slits" below the shirt collar button nor on the nick on the tie.

Let's take another look at the Glaser Safety Slug and see if these clues can be tied together.

https://www.corbon.com/glaser-safety-slug.html

It is conceivable that one of these bullets, or a bullet very similar in construction, entered high on the right rear of JFK's neck, and impacted his cervical vertebrae at the level of C3/C4. Designed to disintegrate when in contact with hard surfaces, it may have broken up on impact. It had already travelled 2 inches through the muscles in the back of JFK's neck and, as the tests with ballistic gel showed, this alone would have this bullet well on its way to disintegration, with the impact at C3/C4 merely being the final push. As videos of the Glaser round fired into ballistic gel will show, the bullet may have been breaking up and slowing down before it impacted the vertebrae, explaining the lack of massive damage to the neck.

The #6 or #12 shot would account for the "many fragments" observed by Jerrol Custer.

The blue polymer (plastic) ball in the tip of the bullet could have found its way through the right side of the vertebral stack, leaving the rest of the bullet behind it, although its velocity would be greatly reduced if it had to smash through interlocking vertebral bones to do so. This would satisfy the requirements of Dr. Jones' bullet exiting the throat at a greatly reduced velocity.

Regardless of how it was spinning, following its impact with C3/C4, the blue polymer ball would still be a ball, and could not make an exit wound that was NOT round, regardless of whether it exited at 90° to the body or not. In comparison, a tumbling bullet, or a bullet leaving the body at an oblique angle, will leave an oblong wound instead of a round wound.

As it was a blue polymer ball made from plastic, it would naturally leave no metallic traces on JFK's shirt or tie.

bump

Bob,

I've kept an open mind regarding whether it was a bullet fragment (even a plastic one) that exited the throat or a bone fragment. One thing that bothers me about both possibilities, but primarily the bullet fragment one, is the construction of the cervical column.

When I look at diagrams of the cervical column, it's construction appears like there is no way for a bullet fragment to slip through.

It seems that a bone fragment has a better chance since a hit from behind could have fractured a vertebrae from behind and sent a shard of it out from the front.

Hi Sandy

You make a very good point here, and this is precisely why the Single Bullet Theory falls down, if we are to believe the WC when they tell us there was no great amount of damage to the cervical vertebrae. As they say, no theory is complete without the odd fly in the ointment.

Without access to the real x-rays of JFK's neck, we may never know if a projectile somehow passed through the right side of the vertebral column. About all we can do is keep an open mind on the subject.

As you say, the possibility of a chunk or shard of bone acting as a secondary missile is still a distinct possibility.

The autopsists said that the bullet entering near the EOP "tunneled" under the skin. From reading that I got the impression that the bullet had hit at such a tangential angle that it skidded down the back of the cranium.

Lt Lipsey stated that the autopsists were sure that the bullet that entered near the EOP exited from the throat.

Both Bob and I believe the bullet (or fragments thereof) could have gone down the neck and resulted in a projectile exiting the throat. I am partial to the possibility of that projectile being a chard of bone.

Some have ridiculed that thought. One pointed to some WC testimony stating the the wound was smooth. Somehow that was supposed to have shown the projectile couldn't have been a chard of bone.

Well here is some WC testimony I just read on another thread that pertains to this:

"Dr. Jones: ....There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound."

Just wanted to point that out.

I'm glad we agree on the possibility of a bullet skidding underneath the back of the cranium. In fact, with the way Humes moved wounds around on JFK's body, it wouldn't surprise me if the bullet never touched the cranium at all, and only entered high on the neck.

With this in mind, I go back to the HSCA interview of Jerrol Custer, the x-ray tech who took all of the x-rays of JFK at the autopsy. In his interview, he was quite adamant that the x-ray he recalled seeing of JFK's neck was not the one in the Archives, and that the x-ray he recalled showed "many fragments" (presumably bullet fragments) in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

Diagram shows cervical vertebra C7 on the bottom. By counting backward, while going up, C4 is three vertebrae above C7. Use the "spinous processes" (dorsal projections) to identify each individual vertebra. Counting down from the thyroid cartilage just above the trachea (windpipe) we are looking for the space between the 2nd and 3rd tracheal rings. Te projectile that wounded the trachea was travelling on a downward angle, back to front, that left a tear extending from the 2nd to the 3rd tracheal ring; nicely lined up with our high neck entrance wound and the C3/C4 vertebrae.

I still believe some type of frangible bullet was used against JFK, although there was not really any such type bullet on the market in 1963, and the first commercially available frangible, the Glaser Safety Slug, would not be introduced until 1974. I do know that many inventors had been trying to develop a lethal frangible bullet for years before the assassination, and God only knows what the CIA were cooking up.

The point to be made is that, while modern frangible bullets are quite sophisticated and extremely lethal, a frangible bullet in 1963 may have been a crude forerunner of its modern day form. In other words, while it might have been quite lethal in the right wound, ie. brain or lung, it may have been quite ineffective in another type of wound.

Another thing we have to remember is that the throat wound was described as being a neat little round wound 3-8 mm in diameter. As Dr. Jones described it, it could have been an entry wound, as there was so little disturbance to surrounding tissue. However, he went on to say it could also have been a bullet exit wound, but only of a bullet that was travelling at an extremely reduced velocity. Both this and the roundness of the wound I believe to be very important.

I also find it very important that traces of metal were found on the shirt and coat, where the bullet entered JFK's back, but no traces of metal were found on the "slits" below the shirt collar button nor on the nick on the tie.

Let's take another look at the Glaser Safety Slug and see if these clues can be tied together.

https://www.corbon.com/glaser-safety-slug.html

It is conceivable that one of these bullets, or a bullet very similar in construction, entered high on the right rear of JFK's neck, and impacted his cervical vertebrae at the level of C3/C4. Designed to disintegrate when in contact with hard surfaces, it may have broken up on impact. It had already travelled 2 inches through the muscles in the back of JFK's neck and, as the tests with ballistic gel showed, this alone would have this bullet well on its way to disintegration, with the impact at C3/C4 merely being the final push. As videos of the Glaser round fired into ballistic gel will show, the bullet may have been breaking up and slowing down before it impacted the vertebrae, explaining the lack of massive damage to the neck.

The #6 or #12 shot would account for the "many fragments" observed by Jerrol Custer.

The blue polymer (plastic) ball in the tip of the bullet could have found its way through the right side of the vertebral stack, leaving the rest of the bullet behind it, although its velocity would be greatly reduced if it had to smash through interlocking vertebral bones to do so. This would satisfy the requirements of Dr. Jones' bullet exiting the throat at a greatly reduced velocity.

Regardless of how it was spinning, following its impact with C3/C4, the blue polymer ball would still be a ball, and could not make an exit wound that was NOT round, regardless of whether it exited at 90° to the body or not. In comparison, a tumbling bullet, or a bullet leaving the body at an oblique angle, will leave an oblong wound instead of a round wound.

As it was a blue polymer ball made from plastic, it would naturally leave no metallic traces on JFK's shirt or tie.

bump

I've finally figured out why Cliff is here. Any time someone has a reasonable theory posted, Cliff immediately attacks everyone and distracts readers from the main topic

If you had fingers like a four year old girl. The back wound was only 1/4 inch in diameter.

Flesh stretches, Bob.

Really, Cliff? Is that just a guess on your part, or are you speaking from experience?

And, of course, the post I made about the stroke patient went right over Cliff's head, as usual.

Here are the difference between Sandy, Bob et al and me:

The doctors are Parkland entertained the possibility JFK suffered a collapsed lung.

The doctors at Bethesda entertained the possibility JFK was struck with a high tech weapon which wouldn't show up in an autopsy.

Sandy, Bob & Co. morph a possibility into a certainty.

I take the Prosectors' Scenario seriously, but it's not a certainty.

I did no such thing, Cliff. You said, and I quote:

"But Perry found no evidence of a collapsed lung."

To which I replied, and I quote:

It's obvious from everything we know (all the testimony presented by Robert) that Kennedy was treated for pneumothorax.

I didn't say Kennedy certainly had pneumothorax. Though I believe he may have. Just like Perry believed he may have.

The autopsy witnesses put the kibosh on that scenario.

Some might say they covered it up. A back wound so low as the cause pneumothorax wouldn't have been compatible with the magic bullet theory.

A back wound you could explore entirely with your little finger destroys the SBT.

If you had fingers like a four year old girl. The back wound was only 1/4 inch in diameter.

If that article had been written a few weeks prior to the assassination, you might really have something, Paul.

Next Attorney General, perhaps?

God help us all.....

The autopsists said that the bullet entering near the EOP "tunneled" under the skin. From reading that I got the impression that the bullet had hit at such a tangential angle that it skidded down the back of the cranium.

Lt Lipsey stated that the autopsists were sure that the bullet that entered near the EOP exited from the throat.

Both Bob and I believe the bullet (or fragments thereof) could have gone down the neck and resulted in a projectile exiting the throat. I am partial to the possibility of that projectile being a chard of bone.

Some have ridiculed that thought. One pointed to some WC testimony stating the the wound was smooth. Somehow that was supposed to have shown the projectile couldn't have been a chard of bone.

Well here is some WC testimony I just read on another thread that pertains to this:

"Dr. Jones: ....There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound."

Just wanted to point that out.

I'm glad we agree on the possibility of a bullet skidding underneath the back of the cranium. In fact, with the way Humes moved wounds around on JFK's body, it wouldn't surprise me if the bullet never touched the cranium at all, and only entered high on the neck.

With this in mind, I go back to the HSCA interview of Jerrol Custer, the x-ray tech who took all of the x-rays of JFK at the autopsy. In his interview, he was quite adamant that the x-ray he recalled seeing of JFK's neck was not the one in the Archives, and that the x-ray he recalled showed "many fragments" (presumably bullet fragments) in the vicinity of cervical vertebrae C3/C4.

Diagram shows cervical vertebra C7 on the bottom. By counting backward, while going up, C4 is three vertebrae above C7. Use the "spinous processes" (dorsal projections) to identify each individual vertebra. Counting down from the thyroid cartilage just above the trachea (windpipe) we are looking for the space between the 2nd and 3rd tracheal rings. Te projectile that wounded the trachea was travelling on a downward angle, back to front, that left a tear extending from the 2nd to the 3rd tracheal ring; nicely lined up with our high neck entrance wound and the C3/C4 vertebrae.

I still believe some type of frangible bullet was used against JFK, although there was not really any such type bullet on the market in 1963, and the first commercially available frangible, the Glaser Safety Slug, would not be introduced until 1974. I do know that many inventors had been trying to develop a lethal frangible bullet for years before the assassination, and God only knows what the CIA were cooking up.

The point to be made is that, while modern frangible bullets are quite sophisticated and extremely lethal, a frangible bullet in 1963 may have been a crude forerunner of its modern day form. In other words, while it might have been quite lethal in the right wound, ie. brain or lung, it may have been quite ineffective in another type of wound.

Another thing we have to remember is that the throat wound was described as being a neat little round wound 3-8 mm in diameter. As Dr. Jones described it, it could have been an entry wound, as there was so little disturbance to surrounding tissue. However, he went on to say it could also have been a bullet exit wound, but only of a bullet that was travelling at an extremely reduced velocity. Both this and the roundness of the wound I believe to be very important.

I also find it very important that traces of metal were found on the shirt and coat, where the bullet entered JFK's back, but no traces of metal were found on the "slits" below the shirt collar button nor on the nick on the tie.

Let's take another look at the Glaser Safety Slug and see if these clues can be tied together.

https://www.corbon.com/glaser-safety-slug.html

It is conceivable that one of these bullets, or a bullet very similar in construction, entered high on the right rear of JFK's neck, and impacted his cervical vertebrae at the level of C3/C4. Designed to disintegrate when in contact with hard surfaces, it may have broken up on impact. It had already travelled 2 inches through the muscles in the back of JFK's neck and, as the tests with ballistic gel showed, this alone would have this bullet well on its way to disintegration, with the impact at C3/C4 merely being the final push. As videos of the Glaser round fired into ballistic gel will show, the bullet may have been breaking up and slowing down before it impacted the vertebrae, explaining the lack of massive damage to the neck.

The #6 or #12 shot would account for the "many fragments" observed by Jerrol Custer.

The blue polymer (plastic) ball in the tip of the bullet could have found its way through the right side of the vertebral stack, leaving the rest of the bullet behind it, although its velocity would be greatly reduced if it had to smash through interlocking vertebral bones to do so. This would satisfy the requirements of Dr. Jones' bullet exiting the throat at a greatly reduced velocity.

Regardless of how it was spinning, following its impact with C3/C4, the blue polymer ball would still be a ball, and could not make an exit wound that was NOT round, regardless of whether it exited at 90° to the body or not. In comparison, a tumbling bullet, or a bullet leaving the body at an oblique angle, will leave an oblong wound instead of a round wound.

As it was a blue polymer ball made from plastic, it would naturally leave no metallic traces on JFK's shirt or tie.

I'm not bashing witnesses, Cliff.

The hell you the aren't!

I want you to do more than link us to a couple of vague reports.

Tough shoot, Sherlock. Quit projecting your Pet Theorist mentality onto me.

I want you to tell us, in your own words, where you think the assassin that delivered the dart stood.

The throat shot came from somewhere in front.

The back shot came from somewhere behind.

JFK was murdered in a military-style ambush.

The rest is speculation I'll leave to you guys.

I want you to tell us what the delivery mechanism looked like, what the dart looked like and how the dart was propelled.

Nothing vague in the testimonies of Senseney and Colby.

It's a "lead," not a certainty.

Savvy "lead"?

Interpretation: "I got nothin'!!"

Cliff

Do you believe the back entrance wound was at the level of the C7/T1 vertebrae, or the level of the T3 vertebra?

I thought I remembered reading about the pneumothorax in the WC and here's an extract including it from the ARRB with Dr. Jones written statement (last page of the document).

Bob does Jones's testimony support Perry's?

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=359#relPageId=5&tab=page

Yes, I would say it does, Chris. However, Dr. Jones was in the same boat as Perry, in that assumptions about JFK's respiratory condition could only be made from the very obvious signs and indications, despite the fact the sum total of his signs could not be interpreted as anything but a right tension pneumothorax.

Factually incorrect. His agonal breathing could have been caused by cardiac arrest.

Cliff

I have dealt with children that possess better comprehension skills than you do. Grow up.

When I said the sum total of his signs, do you honestly think I meant the sum total of every sign JFK was displaying?? Including the massive haemorrhaging in his cranium?

Just for you, Cliff, let me say I was only referring to the signs related to a possible tension pneumothorax. Agonal breathing would be a sign independent of a pneumothorax, and is a sign displayed by many dying patients, regardless of the cause of death.

Unfortunately, when Specter interrogated Perry, asking for cold hard facts, Perry had nothing concrete to give him. Perry could not actually say with certainty JFK had a pneumothorax,

Thank you. No further questions.

Cliff

On the ambulance a while back, we were dispatched to the home of a senior citizen, whose neighbour had dropped in on and found him in an altered level of consciousness. When we arrived, we found him sitting in an easy chair, complaining of a headache and difficulty focusing. His complaints were given in a slurred speech, and often inappropriate words found there way into his speech, making it a bit difficult to communicate with him.

While I administered a blood glucose test to rule out complications from diabetes (a mandatory procedure for ambulance crews when altered LOC is encountered), my partner conducted the standard test we use to attempt to rule out or confirm a CVA; more commonly known as a "stroke". Using the acronym "FAST", my partner went through the following procedure:

F) He checked for facial droop, and found the left side of the patient's mouth and face to be sagging dramatically.

A) He asked the patient to raise both arms over his head. While he was able to raise his right arm the entire way, his left arm came part way up and then wandered off to the side.

S) The patient had already been observed to be having tremendous difficulty with his speech, and this was noted.

T) "T" stands for time. With the help of the neighbour, we were able to establish the time of this possible CVA or stroke as happening approximately one hour before we arrived.

At this point, my partner and I were more than convinced, by our patient's almost textbook signs and symptoms, that he had suffered a stroke affecting the left side of his body. I immediately contacted our Dispatch and requested a medevac helicopter be sent over that we might evacuate our patient to a centre equipped with a CAT SCAN machine.

The reason for getting our patient to a CAT SCAN machine is quite simple. Strokes are caused either by a ruptured blood vessel in the brain, which requires administration of a blood clotting agent, or by a blood clot blocking an artery in the brain, which requires administration of a clot busting agent. Needless to say, administration of the wrong agent could prove fatal, and no doctor will take the chance of administering either agent without confirmation of

1) Whether the stroke is a bleed or a clot

2) Whether or not the patient is indeed having a stroke at all, or is suffering from a completely different condition.

Our ambulance service recognizes there is a 4.5 hour window, from the time the stroke occurs, in which administration of the correct agent has the ability of reversing the permanently debilitating effects of a stroke, and this is why we were conducting all of our business with the utmost haste.

Now, as it turned out, this patient had indeed suffered a stroke, caused by a blood clot that was a direct result of a heart condition he had and not taking his blood thinners regularly. This was confirmed ONLY when he was given a CAT SCAN.

While my partner and I were wholly convinced that our patient had suffered a stroke, if Arlen Specter had me on the witness stand and asked me if I had conclusive evidence, at the patient's home, that my patient had suffered a stroke, I would have to answer "No".

I completely sympathize with Dr. Malcolm Perry.

I thought I remembered reading about the pneumothorax in the WC and here's an extract including it from the ARRB with Dr. Jones written statement (last page of the document).

Bob does Jones's testimony support Perry's?

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=359#relPageId=5&tab=page

Yes, I would say it does, Chris. However, Dr. Jones was in the same boat as Perry, in that assumptions about JFK's respiratory condition could only be made from the very obvious signs and indications, despite the fact the sum total of his signs could not be interpreted as anything but a right tension pneumothorax.

I did notice something in Jones' WC testimony that I had not spotted before. Jones was to Perry's immediate left when Perry made the tracheotomy incision and, while Perry only testified to observing free air and blood in the right upper mediastinum, Jones testified that he understood Perry and Dr. Baxter (assisting Perry) observed a gush of air from the mediastinum. This gush of air would be typical of air trapped under pressure in the right pleural cavity, due to a tension pneumothorax, escaping through the hilum of the right lung and into the mediastinum, where pressure would continue to build.

"Mr. SPECTER - What further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?

Dr. JONES - Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space."

I'm not sure if everyone understands the accepted method for relieving a tension pneumothorax. As Jones testified, he inserted an anterior chest tube in the 2nd intercostal space and this would have been at the mid-clavicular line.

The 2nd intercostal space is the space between the 2nd and 3rd rib. Fifty-three years later, this is still the accepted site for placing a chest tube for the purpose of decompressing a tension pneumothorax. Connecting the chest tube to underwater sealed drainage, as described by Jones et al, allows air pressure and blood to drain out of the pleural cavity, via the chest tube, but does not allow air to return to the pleural cavity when the patient breathes in, acting like a one way valve.

I find it very odd that the doctors were not quicker to zero in on the right lung as the site of the pneumothorax, as Carrico turned up the most obvious clue when he listened to JFK's breathing with a stethoscope, following intubation and connection to a respirator, and heard greatly reduced breath sounds in JFK's right lung, in comparison to his left lung. There may have been some lack of communication in Trauma Room One but, it would not have made any difference in whether they inserted only a right chest tube or bilateral chest tubes. Without knowing precisely what was going on in JFK's chest, and whether both sides or only the right was damaged, the only safe course would be to insert bilateral tubes, in spite of onvious signs of damage to the right lung.

"Mr. SPECTER - Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?

Dr. JONES - I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage.

Mr. SPECTER - What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES - The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side."

Dr. Jones confirms that he not only inserted the left anterior chest tube but that it was immediately connected to underwater sealed drainage. Much has been made by the Lone Nutters of Jones testifying " I felt that the tube was fully inserted....". While the LN's would have us believe this is proof of the chest tube not being inserted, it is merely, once again, the surgeon's way of saying the only way to really prove the tube was fully inserted would be to either 1) x-ray the chest or 2) open the chest up and visually inspect to see if the tube was fully inserted. I am quite sure someone would have been monitoring the drainage bottle and, if no air was seen in the bottle's water, it would have been brought to Jones' attention that, perhaps, the chest tube was not fully inserted into the pleural cavity.

Has John McAdams endorsed Donald Trump yet?

From the WC testimony of Dr. Malcolm Perry:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. SPECTER - What is pneumothorax?

Dr. PERRY - Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs.

Mr. SPECTER - Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the President's trachea?

Dr. PERRY - There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum.

<quote off>

Cliff,

Why so you suppose the subject of pneumothorax even came up? It's obvious from everything we know (all the testimony presented by Robert) that Kennedy was treated for pneumothorax. It's obvious (from further testimony presented by Robert) that Humes tried to make the pneumothorax disappear. And now, it's obvious (from the testimony you are providing) that the WC got Perry to sign off on this disappearing act. Or at least play a little dumb.

Thanks, Sandy. Here is a little more from Perry's testimony to the WC:

"Mr. SPECTER - Now, you described a condition in the right mediastinum. Would you elaborate on what your views were of the condition at the time you were rendering this treatment?

Dr. PERRY - The condition of this area?

Mr. SPECTER - Yes, sir.

Dr. PERRY - There was both blood, free blood and air in the right superior mediastinum. That is the space that is located between the lungs and the heart at that level.

As I noted, I did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. But in the presence of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to detect small injuries to the underlying structures. The air was indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or an underlying injury to the lung.

Since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a pneumothorax is considerable, I elected to have the chest tube put in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high in such instances."

I think it fair to say that Perry was put into a bit of a dilemma by Specter, and Specter took complete advantage of the situation.

As a trauma room surgeon, Perry was not able to make complete diagnoses of everything he observed in his patient, nor was he able to do anything for JFK except the most basic of critical interventions in order to establish basic life support. Once JFK was declared dead, Perry et al no longer felt it was their task to investigate the underlying causes of JFK's death. Had JFK lived, even for a few more hours, Perry likely would have known everything there was to know about JFK's injuries; including the nature and cause of his pneumothorax. But, this was not the case. He was too involved in basic life support, and did not have time for further diagnoses.

Unfortunately, when Specter interrogated Perry, asking for cold hard facts, Perry had nothing concrete to give him. Perry could not actually say with certainty JFK had a pneumothorax, even though JFK was displaying several unmistakeable signs of a pneumothorax. It's a shame the autopsy was not conducted in Dallas.

The HSCA report on the medical evidence says that the HSCA's own investigation led to their locating two additional witnesses to the autopsy beyond those mentioned in the Sibert/O'Neill report. These two witnesses were Richard Lipsey and Sam Bird. Anyone assuming their investigation to have been in error should first find out what it entailed. As it is, we have no reason to believe it was in error, IMO. There is certainly more reason to believe Lipsey--who never sought attention--than someone like Audrey Bell--whose latter-day recollections made little sense.

I looked at the online editions of the HSCA report and could find no link relating to the autopsy. I went to the report on the Mary Ferrell site and searched the document for "Lipsey." There were "no results found."

If you could be more specific on where the info on Lipsey is found, it would be appreciated.

It's in vol.7 pages 8 and 9.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=82&search=Lipsey#relPageId=18&tab=page

Thanks, Pat.

I agree.

But we know that the Sibert ONeill report is wrong on this from a direct witness who was intricately involved.

His name is Pierre Finck.

Part of the pure gold he dispensed at the Clay Shaw trial was the fact that there were both Admirals and Generals in the room and they were interfering with the autopsy. (Destiny Betrayed, pgs. 300-301)

I mean does't anyone read my books here? There is some good info in them.

That's very interesting info from Finck. I now recall reading that at one point in time but had forgotten it. Now with Finck in mind, let's go back to Lipsey's testimony:

"The only other person that I can remember besides the doctors, and there were the team of doctors that worked on the body, the only other person that I can remember, beside the doctors was inside of the room was a 1st Lt. Sam Bird."

Does it make any sense at all to you that with admirals and generals in the room, the only military person that Lipsey could remember being there was a first lieutenant?

Hi Ron

Is it possible that what he means by "that I can remember" is that the people he mentions (Lt. Sam Bird, the doctors) are the only ones who stand out as identifiable in his memory? Even if he wasn't in the autopsy room, and was standing outside, he must have known there was a small crowd in there, and if he was "prevaricating", as some claim, he would be pretty stupid not to include this detail.

I'm not bashing witnesses, Cliff.

I want you to do more than link us to a couple of vague reports. I want you to tell us, in your own words, where you think the assassin that delivered the dart stood. I want you to tell us what the delivery mechanism looked like, what the dart looked like and how the dart was propelled.

Dr. Malcolm Perry testified he found no evidence of a pneumothorax in JFK's right pleural cavity, for the simple fact he did not explore the pleural cavity. The only way to actually verify a pneumothorax would be at the point they opened the chest cavity to repair the damage to the collapsed lung. Being a professional, Perry would not claim he had evidence of a pneumothorax until he was able to verify it surgically.

HOWEVER, Perry and Carrico observed several signs and indications of a tension pneumothorax in the right pleural cavity, as well as a right haemothorax, and of a collapsed right lung.

1. JFK's trachea was observed by Perry to be deviated to JFK's left, requiring Perry to sever the left strap muscle in order to access the trachea during the tracheotomy procedure.

2. Following intubation of JFK with an endotracheal tube, and connection of that tube to a respirator, Dr. Carrico listened to JFK's chest with a stethoscope to assess his breathing. He found breath sounds to be reduced, especially on the right side, indicating a developing tension pneumothorax as a result of the positive pressure breathing provided by the respirator.

3. Following the tracheotomy incision, Perry observed free air and blood in the "mediastinum".

As this diagram shows, the mediastinum is the space between the two pleural cavities containing the two lungs, and it contains the heart, trachea and major blood vessels.

As this diagram shows, there is only one opening into a pleural cavity, and that opening opens into the mediastinum and is called the "hilum" of the lung. Through this opening passes pulmonary arteries and veins, as well as the bronchus bringing air to and from the trachea. As all of these things enter through the hilum in a bundle, there is not a perfect seal made by the hilum between the pleural cavity and the mediastinum.

In the case of a lung injury, such as sustained by JFK, there would be a buildup of blood in the pleural cavity (haemothorax) and air pressure (tension pneumothorax) and both would have a very good chance of escaping through the hilum and into the mediastinum, as observed by Perry.

THIS is why, upon observing free air and blood in the mediastinum, Perry immediately requested the insertion of a right chest tube, and that this chest tube be connected to sealed underwater drainage.

"Dr. PERRY - At this point, I had entered the neck, and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland arrived shortly thereafter. I cannot describe with accuracy their exact arrival. I only know I looked up and saw Dr. Baxter as I began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to assist me.

Dr. McClelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an instrument and said, "Here, I will hand it to you."
At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for better control of circulation.
I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and although I could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be indicative of the underlying condition.
I asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax.
This occurred while I was doing the tracheotomy. I did not know at the time when I inserted the tube but I was informed subsequently that Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and Dr. Charles Baxter, previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax. "

Uh oh, Cliff, do my eyes deceive me? Did Perry actually say he wanted a right chest tube inserted to drain the "right haemothorax" and the "right pneumothorax"????