Tom Neal
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Nice job, Bart!
No question as to what he was referring to with his analogy.
Tom
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DB is ABSOLUTELY the DEFINITIVE source for the processing of the Z-film...
Sat night, yes.. not Sunday though. And you make a great point Tom... when Dino says the briefing boards aren't the ones he created that pretty much puts a nail in it.
DB was completely unaware that Homer McMahon and team worked on a 16mm film Sunday night according to Horne's transcripts.
Arthur Lundahl could have known of both events - but he never gave it away.
"Lundahl was a high-ranking CIA employee described in White House papers as "perhaps the most distinguished authority in the United States on photographic intelligence...the top photographic intelligence officer in the United States government and, as such, he has been involved in the most important photographic problems affecting national security..."
Lundahl, using Dino's boards, briefs McCone Sunday morning. http://jfkfacts.org/cia-chief-told-rfk-about-two-shooters-in-dallas/
"According to Brugioni, Lundahl went to the office of CIA Director John McCone, taking along briefing notes Brugioni had prepared for him. Lundal briefed McCone on the CIAs analysis of the blown-up frames of the Zapruder film. He returned to NPIC later Sunday morning, November 24, and thanked everyone for their efforts the previous night, telling them that the briefing of McCone had gone well."
Hi David,
That's an excellent point that you make re DB's knowledge of what happened on Saturday vs. what he did NOT know about what happened on Sunday AFTER the initial CIA briefing. Clearly it was decided that the film in its original form was unacceptable.
I believe Art Lundahl knew EXACTLY what was done, and by whom.
Possibly you can help me understand why some many otherwise knowledgeable use the following reasoning to dismiss any possibility of Z-film alteration:
"If the Z-film was altered, then WHY is there STILL evidence of a frontal head shot in it? If it had been altered, they would have removed this!"
My answer, which doesn't satisfy any of them, has always been:
Using 1960's technology, they did their best to remove any evidence contrary to 'LHO acting alone shot JFK from the TSBD', so the film could be released. However, the results were unacceptable, SO THEY USED LIFE MAGAZINE TO PREVENT RELEASE OF THE FILM!
It was not seen by the public until 12 years after the assassination, when Geraldo Rivera, despite threats of prosecution, showed an illegally acquired bootleg version on national television.
IF the film had been released shortly after the assassination you would have a valid point. But it was NOT released - it was leaked. Following this event, all they could do was attempt damage control.
I can NOT understand what is wrong with the logic in my explanation, but it never changes anyone's mind.
Tom
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For Michael Walton,
Michael are you familiar with Dino Brugioni and his background with NPIC? If not, here's a quick synopsis by Jefferson Morley:
http://jfkfacts.org/cia-chief-told-rfk-about-two-shooters-in-dallas/#more-2415
If so, have you seen any of the video interviews with him?
DB is ABSOLUTELY the DEFINITIVE source for the processing of the Z-film...
Tom
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"Time of Death" is an ambiguous term. Does it mean the time of the fatal shot, or the time he was pronounced dead? There are documents that put the time he was declared dead at 1:25. IMO, they wanted the shooting time at about 1:15 and the declared time of death as about 1:25. This gives LHO another 10 minutes to arrive and kill JDT.If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)
But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?
It doesn't matter what time they say the ambulance arrived, or what time they called him dead at the hospital - as long as it doesn't conflict with the 1:15 shooting time, which coincides perfectly with a 1:18 time of arrival for the ambulance, and the documentation of this time is conveniently missing.
Tom
Tom,
You make a fair and logical point.
(To which I'll just make the following remark: Suppose the true arrival time of the ambulance to the hospital was 1:15... a time supported by my current timeline. The doctors could have announced Tippit DOA at 1:15. The coroner could have overruled this time and announced the true time of death as being 1:06. The authorities could have later decided that the original 1:15 time of death was necessary in order to implicate Oswald, but the fact that is was DOA time had to be suppressed. And this would explain the 1:06 on the death certificate being changed to 1:15. This is scenario that makes sense to me.)
But regardless of that, I'm willing to consider what you're saying here.
Now, let me ask you the something:
We all believe the true TOD to be 1:06 PM. I think we all believe that Mrs. Frank Wright called the police pretty fast... no later than 1:07. The question is, how long would it have taken for the ambulance to arrive after Mrs.Wright made her call? All the reports I've seen suggest that it took little more than one minute. I personally believe it could have taken as long as two minutes. On my current timeline, I have the time delay at three minutes, so that the ambulance arrives at 1:10. (I made it longer than my personal 2 minute belief so that it could be reasonably reconciled with T.F. Bowley's statement.)
What is your position on this?
I haven't really devoted much time on the ambulance, because in the larger scheme of things it doesn't affect the evidence that the actual shooting took place at 1:06. That gives LHO his alibi, as he was seen at his rooming house at 1:04. If he really went there just to pick up his gun, where in that closet-sized room had he been hiding that pistol and holster? The woman that cleaned his room never saw either item.
Trying to get events down to the correct minute when dealing with all the variables...I don't know. I think that the shots were fired at 1:06, Mrs. Wright called at 1:07, and Hughes had the call by 1:08. It would certainly be easy to change 1:08 to 1:18 to give LHO more time to arrive as the shooter. The statement that the call was logged and machine time-stamped at 1:18 is told only in the 3rd-person from what I've read. It would be interesting to find out from J. Clayton Butler or Hughes IF that was the system used at that time, and did DPD, FBI, SS or someone take the original? Considering how often 'time-stamped at 1:18' is stated in publications I had at first believed this document was available. I have found numerous statements from researchers that they were unable to find it. You'd think it would have been published in the WCR. Also, Butler's HSCA testimony is not printed in the volumes as far as I can tell, but both Bugliosi and Myers list it as a source. If the ambulance driver's testimony wasn't considered important enough to print, why was he called to testify? Or did he perhaps contradict the 1:18 time?
Have you tried listing one column with times by the minute, and then in the next columns what event each witness stated had occurred at that time, and how they determined that time?
01:06 *** Mr/Mrs Wright - Shots fired (TV time hack) *** Helen Markham - Shots fired (her arrival time at the bus stop)
01:07
01:08
In the above example, the 1:06 time was determined independently by Markham and the Wrights, both of whom had good time references. This format would make it easier to evaluate and compare the witnesses statements with events such as the arrival of the ambulance.
BTW,
Ann McRavin (Mrs. Charles McRavin) of 404 East 10th St. (the shooting occurred in HER front yard!)
In the 1964 BBC program "The Day the President Died":
"I was standing at the window and I saw a man run by, and then there was a police car coming down the street and the policeman jumped out of the car, and just as he did the man turned around and shot him, and the man fell." Killer described by narrator as "fair-haired young man in shirt sleeves."
Although she witnessed the entire event, Mrs. McRavin was NOT called to testify by the WC, and I can't find a DPD record of an interview.
If an actual investigation had taken place, DPD would have a stack of records from each owner/tenant of the entire 400 block on 10th Street. Even if the statement said "didn't see a thing" or "wasn't home" the records would be kept to prove they had interviewed ALL POSSIBLE witnesses. Has DPD ever claimed they did this?
Tom
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"Time of Death" is an ambiguous term. Does it mean the time of the fatal shot, or the time he was pronounced dead? There are documents that put the time he was declared dead at 1:25. IMO, they wanted the shooting time at about 1:15 and the declared time of death as about 1:25. This gives LHO another 10 minutes to arrive and kill JDT.If the authorities wanted a LATER time-of-death so as NOT to exclude Oswald as a suspect, why would they choose a time of death earlier than the time he actually arrived at the hospital? 1:15 instead of 1:18? And why choose a time of death that is inconsistent with the ambulance driver's testimony and ambulance logs? (Or MORE inconsistent.)
But guess what... there is one more thing to consider. In his statement, T.F. Bowley says that the ambulance arrived "a few minutes" after he made his call. If we conservatively use 2 minutes for "a few minutes," then the ambulance ends up arriving at 1:20. I ask again, why wouldn't the officials have used that time as the official time of death? Instead of choosing 1:15?
It doesn't matter what time they say the ambulance arrived, or what time they called him dead at the hospital - as long as it doesn't conflict with the 1:15 shooting time, which coincides perfectly with a 1:18 time of arrival for the ambulance, and the documentation of this time is conveniently missing.
Tom
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IMO you have the Davises arriving at JTD's car a little too soon. They were both lying down when they heard the first shot. They didn't suspect gunfire until they heard the second shot. They put on their shoes and then proceeded to the front door in time to see the shooter cross their lawn and disappear around the corner. They then called the police, which would have taken a minute or two. Do people react immediately in a shocking situation that they've never experienced? I doubt events transpired as quickly as even they may think... Based upon their activities, I'd put their arrival time at JTD's car at 1:10 at the earliest.
The Davis' did walk over to the body and left 5 minutes later when the police cars started to arrive. IMO, they may have first heard/seen the siren and lights of the ambulance followed closely by the arrival of the DPD.The problem with a 1:10 (or later) arrival of the Davises at Tippit's car is that they have to arrive there before them ambulance does. Or at the latest, when the ambulance arrives. Because they say they walked over to the body, IIRC.
Do you think the ambulance arrived before TF Bowley? Clearly he arrived before the ambulance, even if his watch was wrong. If he arrived at 1:08 (which does NOT fit his timetable prior to arriving at the shooting) no matter how hard you try to rush him, he walked toward the cruiser, stopped to check JDT, went to the cruiser, discovered Domingo Benavides on the radio, got him out of the way, got in the car, called the PD, and got out of the car. To say he did that in 2 minutes is pushing it. So now it's 1:10. TFP didn't know that the police had already been called, so he would have been surprised to see the ambulance arrive immediately, yet he doesn't mention it. Therefore, the ambulance could only have arrived after 1:10. Add 2 minutes to this and the ambulance arrived at 1:12 if his watch was 2 minutes fast, 1:14 if his watch was accurate, and 1:16 if his watch was 2 minutes slow.To do what you want, I'd have to have the ambulance arrive later than 1:10.
Tom
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hsca record 180-10107-10180 is the HSCA interview with J. Clayton Butler, the ambulance driver.
Does anyone know where to find this record?
Tom
I've spent several days looking for this too, also without success. It used to be EASY to find HSCA testimony online.
I thought for sure it would be found here:
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/contents/hsca/contents_hsca_vols.htm
But after searching the contents of each volume and doing a Google site search of aarclibrary.org, it simply doesn't seem to be there. Very frustrating!
Jim,
I spent considerable time looking at that site, also. Could it be that this testimony which resides in the archives simply wasn't published in the Report? Could it be a recording that was never transcribed?
Even more annoying is that Bugliosi and Myers state it as a reference, so they had access to it. I don't trust a thing EITHER one of them says in their books!
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Tippit Scene Timeline (with Virginia Davis and the first arriving police officers)
1:06 - Tippit is shot.
1:07 - Witness Mrs. Frank Wright calls in the shooting.
1:07 - Virginia Davis and her-sister-in-law arrive at the door, and Helen Markham screams to them that Tippit is dead and to call the police. They see the killer cross their yard and disappear around the corner of their house. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]
1:08 - The Davises call the police and then step out into their yard. They walk over and see Tippit's body lying on the ground. [Time: Based on the above Timing Analysis.]
Sandy,
IMO you have the Davises arriving at JTD's car a little too soon. They were both lying down when they heard the first shot. They didn't suspect gunfire until they heard the second shot. They put on their shoes and then proceeded to the front door in time to see the shooter cross their lawn and disappear around the corner. They then called the police, which would have taken a minute or two. Do people react immediately in a shocking situation that they've never experienced? I doubt events transpired as quickly as even they may think... Based upon their activities, I'd put their arrival time at JTD's car at 1:10 at the earliest.
T.F. Bowley arrived at 1:10 according to his watch. He said he went to JTD to see if he could help him. Domingo Benavides was already in the car and on the radio, or attempting to call in. TFB said that DB didn't know how to use the radio, so he called the shooting in. I would think that took him a minute or two, and even presuming it was exactly 1:10 when he arrived, I doubt he was out of the car before 1:12. He doesn't mention that the ambulance was already there, or arrived just after he got out of the car. I would think that since as far as he knew he was the first to report the shooting he would have been surprised to find the ambulance there waiting when he got out of the car, but he doesn't mention it.
Barbara Davis said she went to the car and saw JTD on the ground so she arrived before the ambulance. She also doesn't mention seeing TFB getting out of the police car after reporting the shooting, so she couldn't have arrived before 1:11 or 1:12. She says she stayed at the car for about 5 minutes until the police cars started to arrive. Presumably, the ambulance had lights and siren going. She could have mistaken the ambulance arrival for the arrival of DPD.
Additionally, I have found 5 statements by researchers that the ambulance log sheet is nowhere to be found. Butler et al agree that it took about a minute for the ambulance to get to the shooting scene and another four minutes to get to the hospital, but I am unable to find a statement from them or Hughes as to what time the ambulance departed or arrived at the shooting.
Of course, the only REALLY important time here is the time of the shooting, which is almost certainly 1:06. This does NOT give LHO enough time to be the shooter.
Tom
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hsca record 180-10107-10180 is the HSCA interview with J. Clayton Butler, the ambulance driver.
Does anyone know where to find this record?
Tom
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The Other Witnesses
By George and Patricia Nash
The New Leader, 12 October 1964, pages 69
The question becomes all the more relevant when it is realized that it was a call from Mrs. Wright which was responsible for the ambulance being dispatched, and the police had her address:
I was sitting in my apartment watching television with my husband. We had just learned that the President was shot. I was sitting in a chair with my back to the intersection of 10th and Denver. My husband was sitting across from me. I heard shots fired and I immediately ran to the window.
I heard three shots. From my window, I got a clear view of a man lying there on the street. He was there in the next block. I could see there was a man lying in the street. I didnt wait a minute. I ran to the telephone. I didnt look in the book or anything. I ran to the telephone, picked it up and dialed O. I said, Call the police, a mans been shot! After that I went outside to join my husband. It wasnt but a minute till the ambulance got there.
The operator took Mrs. Wrights address, 501 East 10th, and called the police. The police noted there was a shooting at 501 East 10th and pushed a buzzer connecting them by a direct line to the Dudley M. Hughes Funeral Home.
The Dudley M. Hughes Funeral Home is the central ambulance dispatching point for southern Dallas. It either handles calls directly or calls other funeral homes in the system that cover other areas. Dudley M. Hughes Jr., the dispatcher, took the call from the police. He filled out an ambulance call slip with the code 3-19 (which means emergency shooting) and the address, 501 East 10th Street. He put the slip into the time clock and stamped it 1:18 p.m., November 22, in the space marked Time Called. Since the location was just two short blocks away he told one of his own drivers, Clayton Butler, to respond. Butler and Eddie Kinsley ran down the steps, got into the ambulance and took off, siren screaming.
Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman.
Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled Mayday to no avail, and went back to Tippit. The officer lay on his side, face down with part of his body under the left front fender of the police car. Butler and Kinsley rolled him over and saw the bullet wound through Tippits temple. Butler told us, I thought he was dead then. Its not my position to say so. We got him into the ambulance and we got going as quick as possible. On the way to the hospital I finally let them know it was a policeman. The record shows that Butler called in to the funeral home at 1: 26 p.m. to say he had reached the hospital.
Others never questioned included Butler’s assistant, Eddie Kinsley; Dudley M. Hughes Jr., who dispatched the ambulance; and the managers of the apartment house facing the murder site. All of these potential witnesses were in agreement on the lapse of time between the shots and the arrival of the ambulance
The above explains the incorrect address, 501 East 10th given to the ambulance company, et al.
I still have the problem with the 1:18 call logged by the ambulance. I agree with Jim that it SHOULD have been more like 1:08, but as I said in a previous post, that would require cooperation from the funeral home and the drivers. I'm looking for quotes from Butler, Eddie Kinsey, and Dudley Hughes that confirms or denies these times...
Tom -
Tom,
You make some excellent points, and I agree that the most likely time of the shooting was about 1:06. Wouldn't you have to agree, though, that by many accounts the ambulance got to the scene much faster that the twelve minutes that would have expired between 1:06 and 1:18?
Jim,
The time that the ambulance service received the call (time stamped at 1:18) is the only question mark in the 1:06 shooting time. This would give LHO more time to arrive at the murder scene. However, this 'late' time would require convincing the ambulance company and crew to lie about the times, and that would be more than a bit suspicious to them. Would they lie?
The police were present at the hospital when JDT was pronounced. The only explanation of the 1:06 or 1:09 TOD was if they supplied that information. It was later changed to 1:15. DPD could have done the type-over at any time.
Barbara J. Davis called about 1:08 reporting a shooting (not knowing it was a police officer). IIRC T.F.Bowley looked at his watch and noted his arrival time as 1:10. The latest that DPD should have received his "Officer Down" call would be about 1:12. That is a long, long time for DPD to wait to make the ambulance call. Unless of course they wanted to be certain JDT did not survive the shooting...
1 minute to the shooting scene
3 minutes to load JDT
4-5 minute drive to hospital
2 minutes to ER
2 minutes to work on JDT, as they stated they did...
Total time: 12 (very optimistic) minutes
According to Bowley reporting at 1:12, they would not have pronounced JDT until 1:24... I only found this doc which pronounces JDT at 1:25, AFTER calculating the above times:
If they received a 1:18 call they certainly didn't pronounce him at 1:15, and given the 1:10 arrival time of Bowley, 1:15 couldn't be the time JDT was pronounced. IMO, the 1:15 time was the time DPD WANTED the shooting to have occurred, but it actually happened at 1:06.
Does DPD state a time that Barbara Jeannette Davis' call was received?
Tom
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Sandy and Jim,
If you read Barbara Jeannette Davis' testimony, unlike her 16 year old sister Virginia, she is solid on the order of events. It's worth reading as it clarifies everything Virginia said, and provides much more info regarding the finding of the shells.
Barbara states that after the phone call which took very little time as she did no more than report a shooting at her address, she and her sister walked out of the house, and directly to the Patrol car. They were there until the police cars started arriving about 5 minutes after they arrived at the car. At that time they returned to their yard.
According to the ambulance log sheet, they arrived at the shooting scene at 1:18.
Tom
Interesting. I'll re-read BJ Davis' testimony asap. In the meantime, though, I suspect (in addition to all the witnesses who said Tippit was shot more than 10 minutes before 1:18) most legal investigations would go with the Methodist Hospital's official time of death at 1:15, making the ambulance arrival at 1:18 impossible.
The DPD report also indicated time of death as 1:15 (though, it appears to be typed over the time of 1:09). Since the cops saw "doctors and nurses trying to bring the officer back to life," there is even more of a discrepancy between the ambulance log and the official time of death. Interesting, though.
Jim,
Thanks for the additional info.
By no means am I certain of these times, but IMO, the 1:06 shooting time is the most believable, and the ambulance log, the least likely to have been tampered with.
The later the shooting occurred, the more likely it was that LHO was the shooter, so I don't trust anything that was said by DPD regarding the time of events. I also have seen JDT's (Death Certificate?) with a clear original time of 1:06, and the time 1:15 typed over it.
I can't speak for Dallas, 1963, but there are different official times of death. You're not legally deceased until you're "pronounced" dead by someone qualified to do so. So that's one TOD. Another is what TOD is determined by the coroner based on whatever data he has. It seems reasonable that the hospital TOD was when he was pronounced, but because the wound(s) were fatal, the coroner would state TOD as the time of shooting based on the information he was given by DPD.
Tom
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Sandy and Jim,
If you read Barbara Jeannette Davis' testimony, unlike her 16 year old sister Virginia, she is solid on the order of events. It's worth reading as it clarifies everything Virginia said, and provides much more info regarding the finding of the shells.
Barbara states that after the phone call which took very little time as she did no more than report a shooting at her address, she and her sister walked out of the house, and directly to the Patrol car. They were there until the police cars started arriving about 5 minutes after they arrived at the car. At that time they returned to their yard.
According to the ambulance log sheet, the ambulance arrived at the shooting scene at 1:18. I don't recall them making any statements that there were police on the scene when they arrived. If they didn't then no policeman arrived prior to 1:18. IIRC...
Tom
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According to the WC testimony of Barbara Jeannette Davis, she and her 16 year-old sister-in-law Virginia Davis heard two gunshots. They put on their shoes and ran to the front door to see what was happening. They heard their neighbor Mrs. Markham scream "He's dead - call the police!" At this time they saw a man walking at a normal pace, cutting across their front yard while emptying the shells from his gun into his left hand.
BJD: "He looked at her (Mrs. Markham) first, he looked at me, and then smiled and went around the corner."
BJD: "He was walking at his normal pace."
They did NOT see him discard the shells he had emptied into his hand. Barbara and Virginia then went back into the house, called the police and reported the shooting. They then went outside and walked to the policeman's car. They saw him on the ground, but did not get very close.
Mr. Ball: "How long did you stay there?"
BJD: "Not 5 minutes, because the police cars started coming, and I went back to my yard."
Later, Barbara found a shell in her yard which she gave to the police who were still at the scene. Several hours later Virginia found a second shell. That the night when the police came to take them to the lineup, they turned the shell over to the police. The both were certain that LHO was the 'man with the gun' that they had seen in their yard.
Based upon her testimony, I'd say police cars arrived about 10 minutes after the shots were fired.
Tom
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Croy states (in his WC testimony?) that he did NOT file an 'activities report' on 11-22-1963. Was he ever required to give an affidavit regarding his actions that day? As a VERY early arrival at the JDT murder scene (if not the first officer present) and the guy that found (if we can believe him 30 years later) or at least examined LHO's found wallet, I would think that would be a requirement.
Tom,
It is pretty obvious from Croy's testimony that he wasn't much interested in working "long hours".... at least not that day. He was busy handing off witnesses to other officers. (Or is that something sergeants routinely do?)
Regardless, Croy had made a lunch date with his wife and his stop at the Tippit shooting was making him late. He compensated by deciding not to go home (his parents house) to change clothes.
Of course none of this means that he wasn't required to write a report. But the impression I got is that he wouldn't do so if he didn't have to. At least not until a later date.
Sandy,
I think that you have re-asked my question. Regardless of what he wanted to do on that day or later, at some point the FIRST or almost first officer on the scene SHOULD have been required to write a formal statement or give an affidavit. If he found or even examined the wallet "found" at the scene then all the more reason for a statement. If he was NEVER REQUIRED to make a statement, or the statement has gone the way of the list of theater patrons present at the time of "LHO's" arrest, that IMO, implies that they either didn't want him to make a statement, or he said something in that statement that was unacceptable.
Tom
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Does anybody know where it is documented that Croy and Ruby were conversing?
Croy admitted it in both his Dec. 1 Affidavit and in his Warren Commission testimony.
Excellent find, Jim. Anything interesting on page two of this doc?
Croy states (in his WC testimony?) that he did NOT file an 'activities report' on 11-22-1963. Was he ever required to give an affidavit regarding his actions that day? As a VERY early arrival at the JDT murder scene (if not the first officer present) and the guy that found (if we can believe him 30 years later) or at least examined LHO's found wallet, I would think that would be a requirement.
Tom
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From a WFAA film clip taken at the murder scene:
Note the sergeant's stripes on the cop, and the plain clothes "cop" on the right. Would a civilian be allowed to examine "LHO's wallet" found at the murder scene? So much for any fingerprints... Clearly, they are displaying it for the cameraman. Odd, that the clip only shows a close-up of the wallet. At no time do we see the faces of these two.
Could this be Sgt. Croy and Captain Westbrook?
Tom
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Croy may well have been standing next to Ruby to assure that he carried out his assignment. Ruby could not plead that he had no opportunity to kill LHO if Croy was there as an observer who would report his failure.
Additionally, Ruby could have been challenged by another crop and removed from the basement. Croy could prevent this by stating that Ruby had permission to be present. This is implied by the very fact that he and Croy were conversing. Due to this it's unlikely anyone would bother Ruby, especially since he was well known to all.
Tom
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Because the film does show evidence of a frontal shot hitting President Kennedy in the head and, thus, a conspiracy, the film was kept from public view by the government for 12 long years;
Michael,
I'm trying to follow your responses in this thread. In order to clarify your position, could you please state your opinion as to the following:
- What were the total number of shots fired in Dealy Plaza?
- From what location was each shot fired?
- In what sequence were these shots fired?
- Do you believe LHO fired any shots, and if so, how many?
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Supposedly, DB said he was harassed by the police, and he and Eddie's father-in-law believed that Eddie was murdered because he was mistaken for Domingo. Either someone made up the harassment, and the mistaken identity murder, or DB spoke to someone about it. I can't believe Domingo and his parents as well as his siblings never spoke of Eddie's murder, especially since Eddie's father-in-law and supposedly Domingo, didn't believe that his murder was accidental.
Contacting Eddie's children would also be a good idea. At some point in their lives they surely would have heard that their father was killed under suspicious circumstances. It would have to be explained WHY someone would want to kill Uncle Domingo. This would lead back to the JDT murder. Certainly Eddie's children would want to know every detail as to WHY their father was murdered.
Roger that, and you'd make a great coach!
In fact, you've inspired me to try and reserve a few minutes each day to give your suggestion a shot. Thanks for the great assist of providing all the names of Domingo's kids. I'll start with the sons first, since their names surely will not have changed over the years.
And I'll try to keep some sort of record of the first contact(s). If something really interesting occurs, no doubt WC loyalists will accuse me of coaching the kids so I can make Big Bucks being a Conspiracy TheoristTM. Thanks again.
Sorry for not offering to do it myself, and a HUGE thank you
for taking on the task!I'm definitely looking forward to anything you come up with. Especially, if Domingo really DID believe his brother was murdered in a case of mistaken identity.
Big bucks? Of course; that's why we're ALL doing this.
Tom
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Isn't this the same video I linked to in Post #135 ?From his description below, seems to me that Benevides saw at least some of the shooting incident, but I'd be interested in what others make of it.
Or it could reveal that DB believed the DPD was involved.Interviewing Benavides' surviving family members might be helpful, but unless someone recalled him saying something specific about a second squad car or a man approaching the murder scene from the driveway...
Supposedly, DB said he was harassed by the police, and he and Eddie's father-in-law believed that Eddie was murdered because he was mistaken for Domingo. Either someone made up the harassment, and the mistaken identity murder, or DB spoke to someone about it. I can't believe Domingo and his parents as well as his siblings never spoke of Eddie's murder, especially since Eddie's father-in-law and supposedly Domingo, didn't believe that his murder was accidental.
Contacting Eddie's children would also be a good idea. At some point in their lives they surely would have heard that their father was killed under suspicious circumstances. It would have to be explained WHY someone would want to kill Uncle Domingo. This would lead back to the JDT murder. Certainly Eddie's children would want to know every detail as to WHY their father was murdered.
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As the closest known witness to the Tippit slaying, Benavides may have been in a position to see the second police carthe same one Mrs. Doris Holan saw parked in the narrow driveway between the houses at 404 and 410 E. 10th. If so, he was in a position to see not only the person who shot Tippit, but also the individual who approached Tippit as he was lying in the street, as well as the police car. IF HE DID SEE THE SECOND POLICE CAR, AND THE MAN WHO GOT OUT OF THE SECOND POLICE CAR AND STOOD OVER TIPPIT, he would have immediately realized that at least some Dallas cops were complicit in Tippits murder.
Is it possible that he was simply afraid to become involved in this kind of internecine violence? To me, it appears that Benavides' uncertainty regarding the identification of the shooter is far less important than the possibility that he was witness to DPD involvement in the shooting of Tippit.
Jim,
I had the same thought, but I can't decide whether or not he could have seen the police car or the person that got out of it. DB says that he was ducked down in his truck during the shooting and only got a good look at the gunman AFTER the shots were fired. After the shooter left, DB proceeded toward JDT, saw that he was dead, entered the police car via the left door and attempted to use the radio. Presuming he is telling the truth he would have missed seeing the 2nd man entirely, as he would have left the scene immediately following the shooting.
Has it been established how far back from 10th Street the police car was parked? Given Mrs. Holan's line of sight from directly across the street from the alley, it could have been parked almost anywhere along the alley. The fact that it was a police car and not an unmarked vehicle has to be considered as POSSIBLE evidence that this was a contingency plan.
This idea is well worth pursuing, and is the reason I tracked down the names and location of DB's siblings and children. If I had the time, I'd do it myself, but once I get my teeth into something I can't let go, so I don't dare get started.
Tom
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Ivan W. Conrad was the Director or the Assistant Director of the FBI Labs.According to the 12/3/63 FBI report from R.H. Jevons to a Mr. Conrad printed in Myers' book "With Malice," none of the revolver cartridges had fingerprints. The includes the four shells recovered at the Tippit site, the four unfired bullets found in Oswald's revolver, and the five unfired bullet found in Oswald's pocket.
Roy H. Jevons was Lead Examiner Robert Frazier's immediate supervisor.
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My understanding -- before reading the above document -- was that Domingo Benavides did identify the shooter as Oswald, based on pictures he'd seen of Oswald in news reports. But the above document suggests the exact opposite, in #2a.
Benavides clearly said the man he saw resembled photos he'd seen of "Lee Harvey Oswald," but for some reason he didn't go to a police line-up (even though he had a high profile at Tenth & Patton). Wish someone here could recall whether he refused to identify him. Iirc, Benavides is on record having said something like he wasn't good at identifying faces, or something like that, which could be real enough or some sort of excuse. Wish a researcher had done a lengthy recorded interview of him. Now, I suppose, the best we can hope for would be to follow Tom Neal's suggestion to talk to his surviving siblings (if any) and his children.
What I have read is that DB was asked by the Dallas PD to attend a line up, and he replied that he 'didn't think he could identify' the shooter. Presumably, he was asked the evening of the shooting. At that time, what had he told the DPD? Before the police arrived he had already started to walk away from the scene. He decided that he should go back and locate the spent shells that he saw the shooter discard. He brought them to a policeman, told him where he found the shells, and walked away. He didn't ask the cop his name, so he doesn't know WHO he gave them to. He doesn't mention giving an eyewitness statement at that time to the police. It appears that he was less than eager to get involved as a witness. Is that why he said he couldn't ID the shooter?
When he was asked to attend a line up, what did the police know about what he saw? Did they know he was the closest eyewitness? I don't think so, but I don't have any specific information. What I'd like to see are the actual police documents recording any witness statements taken prior to the line-up. If DB told them the same information that was in his WC testimony, I can't believe they would let him skip the line-up. They were looking for a cop-killer, and they NEEDED an ID.
If they questioned DB and he informed them he got an excellent look at the shooter from 15 feet away, he was their best chance to ID this cop-killer, yet they let him skip the line-up! Why would they do this? Could it be that they knew the shooter wasn't LHO? If it wasn't LHO that shot JDT, then DB would not identify LHO as the shooter because he got too good a look at the shooter to mistake LHO for someone who only resembled him. They couldn't risk the closest witness saying it wasn't LHO, so they would NOT call him in for a line-up.
However, witnesses who saw the shooting or the shooter from a greater distance could easily mistake someone who strongly resembled LHO for LHO himself. Especially since LHO's picture had been all over their televisions.
Without knowing what DB said to the police PRIOR to line-up we can't determine WHY they didn't call him in for a line-up.
I think that the closest DB came to IDing LHO as the shooter was in his WC testimony. He even called the shooter "Oswald" because he resembled the video of LHO that DB saw on television. He then went on to describe the shooter's hair cut as markedly different than LHO's haircut. But, did DB KNOW his description of the shooter's haircut did NOT match LHO? He gave no indication of this, and unsurprisingly, David Belin did not point this out to DB. Anyone who knew the shooter's haircut did NOT match LHO, would believe that DB did NOT ID LHO as the shooter. However, anyone who did NOT realize LHO's haircut did NOT match DB's description, would believe DB did actually ID LHO.
The reality is that in his WC testimony, whether he realizes it or not, DB actually provided STRONG testimony that the shooter was NOT LHO.
for taking on the task!
Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Works for me!
Tom