Terry Mauro

I could not agree more with Charles. In fact, what he said is quite wise IMO. The thread is already archived, unless deleted. But even if it was deleted from the public forum ... it should still be logged elsewhere. Personally, I do not what anyone could complain about when talking about certain threads. If it was a view on the evidence of the JFK assassination whereas data was being kept from the public by deleting such post/ threads, then that would be wrong. On the other hand, if these are threads that don't address the assassination and are designed to complain and bitch about things that are assumed and/or presumed that has no relevancy to the educating people on the assassination of JFK, then they are not threads that this forum should have to buy web space for .... so to speak. Bill *********************************************************** Those were my words C.D. was commenting on. We have a way of complementing one another's philosophy on life, and the world of assassination, in general. I consider Charles Drago a kindred spirit, indeed. FWIW, I was replying to John Dolva: ************************************************************* "The topics of whatever nature form part of history. History is also a history of disruption and misinformation. Deletion distorts history, which one would have thought is one thing this Forum stands almost alone as a bulwark against." I believe that the "history" you speak of should be saved, locked, and set aside in a section specifically created for the purpose of documenting the number of incidences, and on what basis this type of disruption and dissemination of misinfo/disinfo, may be happening. This could serve as a record for keeping track of the distributors, their names, IP addresses, etc., as well as the time of occurrence, by whom, and what trigger factors might have been involved to provoke it. This would enable the admins and the moderators to ascertain what, if any, distinctive patterns might be involved, or at work, here. In any event, it could be utilized as a method of trouble-shooting, or defusing future instances of this type of behavior. This is merely a suggestion on how one might be able to manage or monitor the forum more effectively. The issue of a consensus among the moderators is a good idea, and could form the basis for a more cohesive, unified effort on their part. Bravo! This is precisely the way that we, in aikido-like fashion, turn the enemy's energy against its source. There is so much to learn from them. But there are many hidden dangers along this route. That this T. Folsom character represents -- wittingly or otherwise -- the enemy is beyond question. Let's enjoy all that he/she/they hand(s) us. Charles Ter

******************************************************** "Isn't it ironic that now Blakey admits that he was duped by the Agency regarding Joannides and also calls for the release of the Joannides material along with Jeff Morley and others?" Yes, but only in recent years, after being castigated by the research community for his egregious oversight in placing Johannides in such an advantageous position so as to block any substantial search of the CIA's records, as well as the obvious stone-walling with which Fonzi was met in his attempts to obtain any viable accounting for the Agency's actions, or in-actions. Johannides was blatantly in charge of keeping the Agency abreast of any attempts on the part of the HSCA to further their investigation, to the detriment of the Committee, whilst to the advantage of the Agency. Johannides could be counted on to "feed back" information that would, in effect, forewarn the Agency of any avenues of progress being made by the Committee, allowing them ample time to destroy pertinent data, further thwarting the efforts and strides that could have been made, had the CIA not had a "stooge" conveniently situated right in the midst of the Committee's investigation. Any further caterwauling on the part of Blakey is for the most part, after the fact, and I do not, for one minute believe his protestations of not knowing anything regarding Johannides' prior or past connections. After all, isn't that what he was entrusted to insure for the Committee. He was beyond negligent in his apparent "oversight." Which makes him a part of the "problem." No amount of explanation, on his part, can alter the fact that he, and he alone, allowed this to go down in the annals of history. So, where is the black mark on his career, on his curriculum vitae? Indeed, while we are left with the remaining vestiges having been dealt this dastardly blow. He allowed this to happen on his watch, no less. He will not be so easily redeemed.

************************************************************ "What did that crazy colonial rebel say appx. 230 years ago? Something about "Give me liberty or...."?" "...or give me a locked topic that I'm still able to view, and after having reviewed the content of the thread, can draw my own conclusions as to why it was, in effect, subjected to "locked" status in the first place." You might then be given a choice of addressing it with all of the moderators, or those who took part in the consensus of making the decision to lock it. You could then state your case as to the merits of re-opening the topic, and why you believe you might possibly have some constructive information to offer or impart, as a way of keeping it on track, above the level of flame-war status, and could possibly guarantee it not be allowed to degenerate to the level of contention that warranted its being relegated to "locked" status. You might even be able to view the "locked" status of a topic as a sort of "chill out" period, or what is it that parents require of their squabbling children, instead of having to slap the hell out of them, "T," for TIME OUT? A helluva lot of good that would have done my old lady. We never would've even heard her had it not been for the flying slippers, dish-rags, and assorted items that could never really have caused damage to the house itself, per se, but sure in hell stung when it hit its target. Got our attention REAL fast.

Michael, IMO, is one of the most fair-minded, thoughtful, well-read and generally intelligent members of the forum. A true independent spirit. It has surprised and saddened me on occasion to see him attacked by other good people. I'm glad this thread provides me with an opportunity to say so, on the record. Nicely and accurately said Sid. ********************************************************** Might I also mention how highly I regard Mike Hogan, who [in my opinion] on many occasions, has been one in a handful of other like-minded individuals, to have spoken out as a voice of reason in the on-going maelstrom.

Damned Duplicate Deleted by T. Mauro 16:15 hrs PDT 6-30-07

"Area 51 was nothing more, nor less, than a super-secret/secure test area with runways for super-secret aviation test vehicles from disk-shaped [uFO-type in the '50s and '60s] to stealth bombers and more...and not the only one...just the one most known." I was wondering how closely associated they were with the S.A.C. bases in SoCal, such as Edwards, March, Travis, and Vandenberg, when I decided to google Strategic Air Command Bases of California and came up with the link below. Which also happened to reveal that out of the 75 or so, bases continentally located, as well as those in any outlying territories, only 10 remain "active" as Strategic Air Command bases. Out of the 75 original Strategic Air Command bases, 63 have been decommissioned of their S.A.C. status, 30 remain active as Air Force bases, and 33 have been closed. That's something like 75 Strategic Air Command bases, 65 of which were decommissioned as such, and 10 remaining to mind the store. It makes one wonder where all the money we're supposedly saving by the decommissioning of these strategic defense positions, is really going. And, might this not also account for the shoddy ETA response to 9/11? Strategic Air Command Bases This section contains a web page for each air base used by the Strategic Air Command. Most of them were assigned to the command and are thus considered "SAC ... www.strategic-air-command.com/bases/0-base-homepage2.htm - 87k - Cached - Similar pages What's New Great Photos of the 4123 Strategic Wing Days at Clinton-Sherman AFB What's Left Summary Information Barksdale AFB - ACTIVE Location: Shreveport, Louisiana Now home of 2nd Bomb Wing. - One of the two remaining B-52 Wings. Many prior units at the base. See the page for details. Link: Barksdale AFB Dyess AFB - ACTIVE Location: Abilene, Texas. - Formerly Abilene AFB Former home of 96th Bomb Wing, 341st Bomb / Missile Wing Now home of 7th Bomb Wing - Flies B-1Bs Links: Dyess AFB, Unofficial Dyess AFB Ellsworth AFB - ACTIVE Location: 12 mi. east-northeast of Rapid City, South Dakota. Former home of 44th Bomb / Missile Wing, 99th Bomb Wing . Now home of the 28th Bomb Wing. Flies the B-1 Ellsworth AFB, Black Hills Bandit - online newspaper, South Dakota Air & Space Museum Francis E. Warren AFB - ACTIVE Need photos Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming Former home of 389th Bomb Wing, 706th Strategic Missile Wing, 90th Strategic Missile Wing Home of the 90th Space Wing. Nation's largest and most modern strategic missile unit. Today, the wing maintains 150 Minuteman III missiles and 50 Peacekeeper missiles Link: Francis E. Warren AFB Grand Forks AFB- ACTIVE Location: 16 mi. west of Grand Forks, North Dakota. Former home of 319th Bomb Wing, 321st Bomb Wing, 4133rd Strategic Wing, Now home of 319th Air Refueling Wing and 321st Strategic Missile Wing. Link: Grand Forks AFB Malmstrom AFB- ACTIVE Location: 1.5 miles east of Great Falls. - Formerly Great Falls AFB Home of 341st Strategic Missile Wing Link: Malmstrom AFB - Good image library. Many planes and missiles. McConnell AFB - ACTIVE Location: 5 mi. southeast of Wichita, Kansas Former home of 384 BW. Now home of 22nd ARW and B-2s flown by 184th BW, National Guard. NEED PICTURES Link: McConnell AFB Minot AFB - ACTIVE Location: 13 miles north of Minot, N.D. America's "double punch" base - B-52 bombers and Minuteman Missiles. Former home of 450th Missile Wing, 455th Missile Wing, 4136th Strategic Wing Now home of 5th Bomb Wing and 91st Missile Wing, Link: Minot AFB, Missile Locations Robins AFB - ACTIVE Location: 15 miles southeast of Macon Georgia Former home of 4137th Strategic Wing, 465th Bomb Wing, 19th Bomb Wing, Now home of 116th BW, Air National Guard - B1-B bombers Link: Robins AFB, Robins Aviation Museum Whiteman AFB - ACTIVE Location: 2 mi. south of Knob Noster, Missouri Former home of 100th Bomb Wing, 340th Bomb / Missile Wing, 351st Missile Wing Now home of 509th Bomb Wing, which flies the B-2 Link: Whiteman AFB What's Gone Summary Information 12 Mile Post - See Eielson, AFB, Alaska Altus AFB - ACTIVE Need photos Location: Altus, Oklahoma. Home of 96th Bombardment Wing: 1953-1957; 11th Bombardment Wing: 1957-58 Now Strategic Airlift and Air Refueling Training Center. Link: Altus AFB Abilene AFB - See Dyess AFB Amarillo AFB - CLOSED Need photos Location: 8 miles from Amarillo, Texas 4128th Strategic Wing (1960-1963) 461st Bombardment Wing (1963-1968) Deactivated December 31, 1968. Andersen AFB - ACTIVE Location: Yigo, Guam. 3960th Strategic Wing, 43rd Strategic Wing, 19th Bomb Wing Link: Andersen Air Force Base, Guam Andrews AFB - ACTIVE Location: Maryland, 11 miles southeast of Washington, D.C. First Strategic Air Command Headquarters. Now the home of Air Force One. Link: Andrews AFB Beale AFB - ACTIVE Location: California Home of 9th 17th 100th 456th Bomb Wings and 4126th Strategic Wing. Now home of 9th Reconnaissance Wing Link: Beale AFB Bergstrom AFB - CLOSED Need photos Location: Texas. Former home of 340th Bomb Wing, 4130th Strategic Wing Now the Austin-Bergstrom International Airport Biggs AFB - CLOSED Location: Texas. Former home of 95th Bomb Wing, 97th Bomb Wing Link: Biggs History Site - EXCELLENT Blytheville AFB - See Eaker AFB Bolling AFB - ACTIVE Location: Washington, DC, Now home of the 11th Wing. The Bombers are gone. In fact, the 11th doesn't even have any airplanes Link: Bolling AFB Bunker Hill AFB - See Grissom AFB Cannon AFB - ACTIVE Need Photos Location: Clovis, New Mexico. Formerly Clovis AFB Home of 27th Fighter Wing, SAC fighter escort 1947-1948. Link: Cannon Air Force Base Carswell AFB - CLOSED Location: Texas - formerly Fort Worth AFB Home of the B-36. 7th Bomb Wing, 11th BombWing, 43rd Bomb Wing, 4123rd Strategic Wing Now a Naval Air Station Link: Fort Worth Naval Air Station Castle AFB - CLOSED Location: Merced County, California. Former home of 93rd Bomb Wing Links: Castle Air Museum Chatham AFB - See Hunter AFB Chennault AFB - CLOSED Location: Lake Charles Louisiana Chennault had two B-47 wings. Former home of 44th Bomb Wing, 68th Strategic Recon / Bomb Wing Links: Chennault Airport Clinton-Sherman AFB - CLOSED Location: Clinton, Oklahoma Former home of 70th Bomb Wing, 4123rd Strategic Wing Links: Clinton-Sherman Industrial Airport Clovis AFB See Cannon AFB Columbus AFB - ACTIVE Location: Columbus, Mississippi Former home of 54th Bomb Wing, 4228th Strategic Wing Now home of the 14th Flying Training Wing Links: Columbus AFB Davis-Monthan AFB - ACTIVE Location: Tucson, Arizona The base where many SAC wings got started Former home of 444th Bomb Group, 2nd Bomb Wing, 43rd Bomb Wing, 100th Bomb Wing, 303rd Bomb Wing, 390th Bomb Wing. Now home of 355th Wing flys A-10s Active. Assigned to Air Combat Command. Best known as Air Force aircraft graveyard. Links: Davis-Monthan AFB, Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (the graveyard) Dow AFB - CLOSED Need photos Location: Bangor, Maine Former home of 4038th Strategic Wing, 397th Bomb Wing, Links: Bangor International Airport | Dow Reunion Page Eaker AFB - CLOSED Location: Blytheville, Arkansas - Formerly Blytheville AFB Former home of 97th Bomb Wing, 461st Bomb Wing (B-57s - non SAC) Link: Arkansas Aeroplex and Arkansas International Airport Eglin AFB - ACTIVE Location: 7 mi. northeast of Fort Walton Beach, Florida. Former home of 4135th Strategic Wing, 39th Bomb Wing Link: Eglin AFB, Air Force Armament Museum Eielson AFB - ACTIVE Location: 26 mi. southeast of Fairbanks, Alaska Former home of 6th Bomb / Strategic Wing, 97th Bomb Wing. Now home of 354th Fighter Wing Link: Eielson AFB Fairchild AFB - ACTIVE Location: 12 mi. west-southwest of Spokane, Washington - Formerly Spokane AFB Former home of 90th Bomb / Missile Wing, 92nd Bomb Wing, 98th Bomb Wing, 99th Bomb Wing Now home of the 92nd Air Refueling Wing. Link: Fairchild AFB Forbes AFB - CLOSED Location: 3 miles south of Topeka, Kansas Former home of 55th Strategic / Strategic Recon Wing, 90th Bomb Wing, 40th Bomb Wing The 90th Bomb Wing trained the 308th Bomb Wing, 310th Bomb Wing, 376th Bomb Wing Closed in 1973. Links: Topeka Airport, Forbes History, 40th Bomb Wing Site - Lots of good stuff Forth Worth AFB - Carswell AFB Glasgow AFB - CLOSED Need photos Location: 26 miles north of the city of Glasgow, Montana. Former home of 4141st Strategic Wing, 91st Bomb Wing. Now a Boeing test base Link: Goose Bay AB - CLOSED Location: Labrador Former home of 95th Bomb / Strategic / Air Base Wing , 4082nd Strategic Wing Turned over to Canada in 1967 Grand Island AFB Location: Nebraska Reportedly operated B-29 in late 1940s. No further information. Great Falls AFB - See Malstrom AFB Grenier AFB - CLOSED Location: New Hampshire. Former home of 82nd Fighter Wing (1947). Now an Air Station. Link: Grissom AFB - ACTIVE Location: Indiana - Formerly Bunker Hill AFB Former Home of 305th Bomb Wing; Now home of 434th Air Refueling Wing, AF Reserve. Link: Grissom Air Reserve Base, Grissom Air Museum Grenier Field, NE - See Kearney AFB Griffis AFB - CLOSED Location: Rome, New York Former home of 416th Bomb Wing, 4039th Strategic Wing. Closed Sept 30, 1965 Link: Hanscom AFB - ACTIVE Location: Location: 17 mi. northwest of Boston, Mass Former home of ? . Now 66th home of Air Base Wing - Electronic Systems Support Link: Hanscom AFB Homestead AFB - CLOSED Location: 25 miles south of Miami, Florida Former home of 19th Bomb Wing, 379th Bomb Wing Links: Hunter AFB - CLOSED Location: Savannah, Georgia Former home of 2nd Bomb Wing, 308th Bomb Wing. Closed in 1967. Now Fort Stewart / Hunter Army Air Field Link: Fort Stewart / Hunter Army Air Field K I Sawyer AFB - CLOSED Location: Near the City of Marquette, Upper Peninsula, Michigan Former home of 410th Bomb Wing, 4042nd Strategic Wing. Closed September 30, 1995 Links: County of Marquette K.I. Sawyer Development Department, K. I Sawyer Tribute - Good site Kadena AB Location: 15 mi. north of Naha, Japan Link: Kadena AB Kearney AFB - CLOSED Location: Kearney, Nebraska Former home of 27th Fighter Wing. Closed in1949 Later Grenier Field Link: Kincheloe AFB - CLOSED Need Pictures Location: Chippewa County, Michigan Former home of 4239th Strategic Wing, 449th Bomb / Strategic Wing, Closed July-September, 1977. Link: Larson AFB - CLOSED Location: Five miles northwest of Moses Lake, Washington Former home of 462nd Bomb Wing, 4170th Strategic Wing, Titan I Missiles. Closed in 1966 Link: Grant County International Airport, History of Larson AFB Limestone AFB - See Loring AFB Lincoln AFB - CLOSED Location: Lincoln Nebraska Former home of 98th Bomb Wing, 307th Bomb Wing. Closed in 1966 Link: History of Lincoln AFB - Excellent Site. Many photographs. Lincoln Municipal Airport Little Rock AFB - ACTIVE Location: 17 miles northeast of Little Rock. Arkansas Former home of 70th Bomb Wing, 308th Bomb Wing, 384th Bomb Wing Now the world's largest C-130 base Link: Little Rock AFB Lockbourne AFB - ACTIVE Location: Lockbourne, Ohio, 12 miles southeast of the city of Columbus, Ohio, Former home of 91st Bomb Wing, 70th Bomb Wing, 301st Bomb Wing Now Rickenbacker ANGB, home of 121st Air Refueling Wing, Air National Guard Link: Rickenbacker Port Authority Loring AFB - CLOSED Location: Limestone, Maine - SAC Mega base. Former home of 42nd Bomb Wing (1956-1991). Officially closed September 30, 1994 Link: Lowry AFB - CLOSED Location: Denver, Colorado Former home of 703rd Strategic Missile Wing, 451st Strategic Missile Wing (Titan I) Closed October 1, 1994. Now an administrative center. Link: MacDill AFB - ACTIVE Location: Eight miles south of downtown Tampa, Florida. Former home of 498th Bomb Group, 6th Bomb Wing, 305th Bomb Wing, 306th Bomb Wing, 307th Bomb Wing, 311th Recon Wing (non-SAC) 6th Air Base Wing (non-SAC) Transferred to Tactical Air Command in 1962. Link: MacDill AFB March AFB - ACTIVE Location: 9 mi. southeast of Riverside, California. Former home of 22nd Bomb Wing, 106th Bomb Wing (non-SAC), 320th Bomb Wing Now home of 452nd Air Mobility Wing. Check out the March AFB Air Museum. Link: 452nd Air Mobility Wing, March Air Museum Mather AFB - CLOSED Location: Sacramento County, California Former home of 320th Bomb Wing, 4134th Strategic Wing. Now an industrial park Link: McCoy AFB - CLOSED Location: Orlando, Florida Former home of 306th Bomb Wing, 321st Bomb Wing, 4047th Strategic Wing Closed 1974. Part of base is now operating as the Orlando International Airport McCoy AFB Time Line, 306 BW History, Orlando International Airport Timeline McGuire AFB - ACTIVE Location: 18 mi. southeast of Trenton, New Jersey Former home of 91st Bomb Wing, 305th Bomb Wing Link: McGuire AFB, Team McGuire Photo Library Mountain Home AFB - ACTIVE Location:10 mi. southwest of Mountain Home, Idaho Former home of 5th Bomb Wing, 9th Bomb Wing Now home of the 366th Fighter Wing Link: Mountain Home AFB Nellis AFB - ACTIVE Location: 8 mi. northeast of Las Vegas, Nevada Former home of 99th Bomb Wing. Now home of AF Air Command Command Pilot Training Center. "Home of U.S. Fighter Pilots". Home of Thunderbirds Precision Flying Team Link: Nellis AFB, Thunderbirds Web Site Offutt AFB - ACTIVE Location: 8 mi. south of Omaha, Nebraska Former home of SAC Headquarters, 55th Strategic Recon Wing, 385th Bomb Wing Now Headquarters of U.S. Strategic Command Link: Offutt AFB, U.S. Strategic Command Command Center Patrick AFB - ACTIVE Location: 2 miles south of Cocoa Beach, Florida. Its the airbase for Cape Kennedy. Home of Air Force Missile Test Center, 45th Space Wing Link: Patrick AFB. Extensive missile history on this site Pease AFB - CLOSED Location: New Hampshire, 55 miles from Boston Former home of 100th Bomb Wing, 509th Bomb Wing Now an airport. Home to the New Hampshire Air National Guard which flies KC-135R aircraft. Link: Pease Development Authority Pinecastle - See McCoy AFB, Florida Plattsburgh - CLOSED Location: Plattsburgh, New York Former home of 308th Bomb Wing, 380th Bomb Wing, 497th Refueling Wing Now an industrial park. Links: Plattsburgh Air Base Development Authority | Plattsburgh AFB / 380th Bomb Wing Presque Isle AFB - CLOSED Location: Maine, near Canadian border Former home of 702nd Missile Wing (Snark). Now Skyway Industrial Park Link: Skyway Industrial Park Ramey AFB - ACTIVE Location: Puerto Rico Former home of 55th Bomb Wing, 72nd Bomb Wing Now an airport, home base to U.S. Coast Guard, Air National Guard Link: Ramey AFB Historical Association Rapid City - See Ellsworth, South Dakota Roswell AFB - See Walker AFB Schilling AFB - CLOSED - Formerly Smokey Hill AFB Location: 2 miles southwest of Salina, Kansas Former home of 40th Bomb Wing, 310th Bomb Wing, 97th Bomb Wing, 301st Bomb Wing, 485th Bomb Wing Closed April 1967 Link: 40th Bomb Wing - Excellent site. Many photos. Selfridge AFB - CLOSED Location: Detroit, Michigan Former home of 57th Fighter Wing in 1947; 500th Air Refueling Wing in 1962, Closed in 1971 Link: Seymore-Johnson AFB - ACTIVE Need pictures Location: Goldsboro, North Carolina Former home of 4241st Strategic Wing, 68th Bomb Wing. Now home of 4th Fighter Wing Link: Seymour Johnson AFB Link not working Sheppard AFB - ACTIVE Need pictures Location: Near the city of Wichita Falls, Texas. Former home of 494th Bomb Wing, 4245th Strategic Wing. Now the largest base in Training Command Link: Sheppard AFB Smoky Hill AFB - See Schilling AFB Spokane AFB - See Fairchild AFB Thule AFB - ACTIVE Location: Thule, Greenland Former home of 4083rd Strategic Wing Home of Ballistic Missile Early Warning System, 12th Space Warning Squadron Thule is the only Air Force base with no aircraft and a tugboat. Links: Thule AFB | Thule Picture Book - Great site Travis AFB - ACTIVE Location: Fairfield, California: Former home of 5th Bomb Wing, 9th Bomb Wing, 4126th Strategic Wing. Now Air Transport Command. Link: Travis AFB Link not working Turner AFB - CLOSED Location: Albany, Georgia Former home of 450th Bomb Wing, 484th Bomb Wing, 4138th Strategic Wing Link: Turner Field Historical Site Vandenberg AFB - ACTIVE Location: 8 mi. north-northwest of Lompoc, California Former home of 392nd Strategic Missile Wing, 704th Strategic Missile Wing Now home of 30th Space Wing Link: Vandenberg AFB Walker AFB - CLOSED Location: 8 miles south of Roswell, New Mexico. Former home of 509th Composite Group, 6th Bomb Wing, the famous "Roswell Incident," where flying saucer was supposedly hidden and space aliens dissected. Link: Walker Restoration Advisory Board Warner Robins AFB - See Robins AFB Westover AFB - ACTIVE Location: Chicopee, Massachusetts about 10 miles northeast of Springfield. Former home of 8th Air Force Headquarters, 99th Bomb Wing, 499th Bomb Wing Now Air Force Reserve base Link: Westover Air Reserve Base Wright-Patterson AFB - ACTIVE Location: 10 mi. east-northeast of Dayton, Ohio Former home of Wright Brothers flying field. 4043d Strategic Wing, 17th Bomb Wing Air Force Research and Logistics Center Links: Wright Patterson AFB, Extensive Wright-Patterson History. Many photos, USAF Museum Wurtsmith AFB - CLOSED Location: Near Oscoda, Michigan Former home of 379th Bomb Wing. Closed June 30, 1993 Link: Wurtsmith Historical Web Site

***************************************************** "Bravo! This is precisely the way that we, in aikido-like fashion, turn the enemy's energy against its source." The practice of Haikido, Hapkido, and more recently, Tai Chi, have aided my focus over the years, C.D. Thanks for noting the analogy. Don't get mad, get even. This is what is known as the true "art" of war, in the Asian sense of the word. Ter

This is interesting. And I'm glad you and James responded to this. I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection. Have you heard of one? And who is Osbourne? Kathy ***********************************************************8 Spahn Ranch is nestled between the western side of Box Canyon and the Santa Susanna Pass Road, which is at the Ventura/Los Angeles County line, bordered by Simi Valley on the west and the city of Chatsworth to the east. Box canyon was a favorite film location for the old Hopalong Cassidy movies and serials. The rock formations are spectacular. Rocket Dyne and Hughes had, and probably still have, a lot of acreage out in that area, cordoned off by high chain linked fences, topped with barbed wire on some of the more remote sections of the property, surveillance cameras, and many DANGER NO TRESPASSING signs strategically placed throughout, from what I can remember. I also lived in Box Canyon in the late 1970's, before moving to T.O. in the early 1980's. What must they be doing out there? Another "Area 51"? MK/ULTRA stuff? FWIW. Although Area 51 is not located where we've been talking about, the reason you can see it from Google Earth is because nobody is there anymore. They moved to another section of the desert. I know a woman and her husband who drove around out there lost and they could see air vents in the mountains. But no one came after them. If you look it up on Google Earth, you'll see there are a lot of Air Force Bases around there. Also, from what I've read, the old Area 51 is radioactive. So much for spooks. Kathy ************************************************************** "What must they be doing out there? Another "Area 51"? MK/ULTRA stuff?" Seriously, I think they're noted for aircraft parts, assemblage, rocket science, the usual milspecs required in the manufacture and production of government/corporate issued contracts for materials and acquisition. What and where was "Area 51" supposed to be?

************************************************************* "The topics of whatever nature form part of history. History is also a history of disruption and misinformation. Deletion distorts history, which one would have thought is one thing this Forum stands almost alone as a bulwark against." I believe that the "history" you speak of should be saved, locked, and set aside in a section specifically created for the purpose of documenting the number of incidences, and on what basis this type of disruption and dissemination of misinfo/disinfo, may be happening. This could serve as a record for keeping track of the distributors, their names, IP addresses, etc., as well as the time of occurrence, by whom, and what trigger factors might have been involved to provoke it. This would enable the admins and the moderators to ascertain what, if any, distinctive patterns might be involved, or at work, here. In any event, it could be utilized as a method of trouble-shooting, or defusing future instances of this type of behavior. This is merely a suggestion on how one might be able to manage or monitor the forum more effectively. The issue of a consensus among the moderators is a good idea, and could form the basis for a more cohesive, unified effort on their part.

********************************************************** "I have to go through it in order to get to the Ventura, Oxnard, Camarillo areas, which is on the coastal highway However, I don't know anything about the Acacia Mansion." Hey Doo, I've got a great idea! Why don't I pick you up in Bake some Saturday, and we motor down to Ojai, which BTW, in most Native American dialects, means "nest," and do some sleuthing to see what we can find out about The Acacia Mansion? We could swing on over to Camarillo and get some fruit at one of the roadside stands, and grab a bite to eat later on in the evening. Maybe after Labor Day, when I get back from Atlanta? Talk to you this weekend. Ter

This is interesting. And I'm glad you and James responded to this. I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection. Have you heard of one? And who is Osbourne? Kathy ***********************************************************8 "I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection." Spahn Ranch is nestled between the western side of Box Canyon and the Santa Susanna Pass Road, which is at the Ventura/Los Angeles County line, bordered by Simi Valley on the west and the city of Chatsworth to the east. Box canyon was a favorite film location for the old Hopalong Cassidy movies and serials. The rock formations are spectacular. Rocket Dyne and Hughes had, and probably still have, a lot of acreage out in that area, cordoned off by high chain linked fences, topped with barbed wire on some of the more remote sections of the property, surveillance cameras, and many DANGER NO TRESPASSING signs strategically placed throughout, from what I can remember. I also lived in Box Canyon in the late 1970's, before moving to T.O. in the early 1980's.

************************************************************ "That George Skakel was George Skakel, Jr., Ethel's brother." Hey T.G.! Good to see you back! Ethel Skakel Kennedy. Spot on!

How far is that from the Acacia Mansion. in Ojai, CA? That location is a very obscure locale that has a somewhat bizarre history as well..... **********************************************************8 "How far is that from the Acacia Mansion. in Ojai, CA? That location is a very obscure locale that has a somewhat bizarre history as well....." From MapQuest: Maneuvers Distance Maps 1: Start out going WEST on E OJAI AVE / CA-150 toward N MONTGOMERY ST. 0.4 miles Map 2: Turn SLIGHT LEFT onto W OJAI AVE / CA-150. Continue to follow CA-150. 2.8 miles Map 3: Stay STRAIGHT to go onto N VENTURA AVE / CA-33. Continue to follow CA-33 S. 11.1 miles Map 4: Merge onto US-101 S via the exit on the LEFT toward LOS ANGELES. 17.0 miles Map 5: Take the exit. 0.1 miles Map 6: Turn RIGHT onto VENTURA BLVD. <0.1 miles Map 7: End at Camarillo, CA US Map Total Est. Time: 38 minutes Total Est. Distance: 31.60 miles As the crow flies. These are small, sometimes winding 2-lane roads, taking in the more rural sections of Ventura County.

I have to look up Camarillo Ranch. It's near Ventura. Does your question have anything to do with the phone call? I don't think Ray Sheehan is still alive. I don't think he had any more to tell. Kathy Kathy, I think the Camarillo Ranch had some loose connections to what happened in Dallas. That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law. A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA. Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed. FWIW. James I was home in Oxnard on leave on 11/22/63. I remember I was going with a strict Catholic girl and it really screwed up my plans for a big weekend. Having lived in Oxnard, Ventura County from 1952, til I joined the service in '63, I never really heard of a "Camarillo Ranch." The town of Camarillo, about 5 miles from Oxnard, was probably located on the old Spanish Granted Camarillo ranch...JMO. I'd also heard that Sirhan had been involved with a preacher from Oxnard prior to the RFK killing. Supposedly the preacher had a church on J Street in Oxnard. I never could figure out what church that might have been. I read about it in one of the books on RFK, and thought it was interesting as Osborne was also supposedly a preacher. Also, this may be of some information...both Bell Aircraft and LTV (Chance Vaught at the time) had operations at Pt. Mugu, about 10 miles from Oxnard. My Dad worked for both companies. ********************************************************** "Having lived in Oxnard, Ventura County from 1952, til I joined the service in '63, I never really heard of a "Camarillo Ranch." The town of Camarillo, about 5 miles from Oxnard, was probably located on the old Spanish Granted Camarillo ranch...JMO." Camarillo is in Ventura County, off Hwy 101. It's a farming community with beautiful acres of corn, vegetables, strawberries, citrus and fruit orchards, and tall eucalyptus trees. It was also known as the town that housed Camarillo State Prison for the criminally insane. I believe the prison may have been decommissioned almost a decade ago. My boyfriend, Cam and I used to take his Harley 1958 Panhead, or his 1976 Electroglide, riding all through that area to Pt. Mugu, the Channel Islands, on out through the Oxnard/Ventura line, and on up to Montecito and Santa Barbara. Lovely area, Ventura County. I used to live in T.O. [Thousand Oaks, for those unfamiliar with California].

**************************************************************** "However there are still over 363 pages of the FBI's 302 files and the FBI 62-2116 file on Rosellie remain classified and the subject concerning the assassination attempts on Castro. My point. how did the attack teams members names come forth long before the public was aware. And why was this information withheld by Hoover for over forty years?. Why did the CIA cover the details of this operation? (Bishop, Bennette, Bender, Harvey, Barns, Robertson, and a host of others I would like to see you people get to the bottom of this cold case, and I have tried to help in my own way. However, I can be of no service to the research community anymore. There are those who want to fight and twist and attempt to make a name for themselves at the expence of truth. I no longer give interviews or anwser questions. Nobody has "run" me off the forms. I have seen the work done and it goes round and round and goes nowhere except "newbees" wanting to make a name for themselves. Within the maze of information I have tried to share in the past and if you look and read with an open mind you might just fiend a trueizum that will help get you to the real truth of what happened that day in Dallas. In spite of what some say of me. I am not an assassin. I have always worked in the shadows doing the will of my Commander in Chief. Laugh at that if you want, but it was another day and time... a time much more simple and true. We tried to stop the killings of not only JFK but others as well.... sometimes we were succesful... and other times not. I have no desire to communicate with any of you on this subject. Call me what you like. Do what you want with the information I have provided. However, when these documents are released in total.... then compare them with the Roselli/Plumlee FBI file. Therein leads to Obstruction of Justice by the FBI from the years of 1975-82 and on.. I have paid my dues... now you do the same." I understand a lot more now, than I ever have in the past. What I've come to realize has left me quite sober on the subject, when faced with the myriad of facets that have crystallized and then been shattered just as easily as they were formed. The "trust" factor has been stretched beyond human limits, as far as this case is concerned, and for those of us who've lived through the charade we've been forced to accept, regardless of how much proof has been allowed to surface over the past four decades, it's never been enough, and has always seem to be a day late and a dollar short. I believe you when you state your reasons for being there. I've finally managed to translate the jargon involved, as well as the operational strategy deployed for that particular job. And, I feel bad for those who attempted to, but were thwarted in their efforts to save the chief. I don't find anything remotely amusing about what you tried to do, therefore I'm not one who'll be laughing at your story. I realize now, that you did what you were compartmentalized to do, and how that form of tactical isolation, with its "need to know" basis, can hobble even the most noble of counter interventions. It's probably been the worst thing you've had to live with all these years, the fact that you failed. If anyone is just as sorry, it would be me, as well as those folks who built their dreams on that man during that time and place in history. Because, life as we knew it, and hoped for a better future for ourselves and our loved ones, was broken into a million shards of glass that afternoon, and has spiraled downhill ever since. Thank you, Bill, for coming forth with any piece of information that may enlighten the path and lighten the load. Terry

Peter, I agree with you. Years back, when I first joined another Forum, I called Lee Harvey Oswald a "punk." Because I figured, even if he didn't kill Kennedy, he was up to something. They were insulted! I could never live it down. At least here you can voice your own opinion. Back to Oswald, if you know the Presidential motorcade is passing the building where you're working, do you not go to work that day? Or was he given some role to play -- and didn't realize they were making him the patsy? I've read Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong and I believe there were 2 men using the same identity. Only, I don't think Harvey knew about Lee. Lee, who may have been Harvey's cousin, helped set Harvey up. So, of course I wonder -- whatever happened to Lee? Kathy ********************************************************* "Years back, when I first joined another Forum, I called Lee Harvey Oswald a "punk." Because I figured, even if he didn't kill Kennedy, he was up to something. They were insulted! I could never live it down. At least here you can voice your own opinion." Being a double agent, an FBI asset, or assigned to covert operations, does not necessarily relegate one to the status of a "punk." "Lee, who may have been Harvey's cousin, helped set Harvey up. So, of course I wonder -- whatever happened to Lee?" But, I thought you had already figured that one out, Kath. Donald Norton aka Ralph Geb, right?

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country....... The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack. One can only imagine: 1. Over here, I see him behind the tree! 2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole. 3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg. 4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed: a. Behind the Stockade fence. b. On top of the overpass. c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle. d. Fill in the blank:-___________________ Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won! Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching. ********************************************************* Excellent propositions, and excellent analogies, Purv. What was that old adage the rabid right used to feed us when trying to persuade us of Red China's designs on dismantling Western democracy, "Divide and Conquer?" Supposedly, this was a form of propaganda devised to get the idea across that if we didn't stick together and fight the Iron Curtain, they would surely divide us up into little factions, and conquer us all, should we not cleave to each other to form an allied opposition. Well, at one time that may have all been well and good in the way of arousing patriotic zeal by invoking fear into the hearts and minds of the plebes. But what about those who would not be easily moved to follow such blind ambition and opportunism? On the other hand, and later on in the 20th Century, specifically toward the last two decades, when the James Clavell series came out and was made into one of those TV movie epics, Noble House, I believe it was. If one took it upon themselves to read his series starting with Shogun I and II, TaiPei, King Rat, Noble House I and II, one might get a completely different view of the Asian mindset than the one presented in the 1950's and the 1960's via Mockingbird's propaganda mill. Fast forward to the present day, and Sterling Seagrave's Gold Warriors. A completely different perspective from that which was intentionally foisted upon America in the 1950's. Why? Because the reality of the fact was not in the "Divide and Conquer," sloganeering of the Cold War years. The Asian philosophy was more on par with, "Don't get mad, get even." Therein lies the rub. The joke was on the dumb Americans. The Asian philosophical outlook was far more superior to the oafish brute force attitude of the Western World. Can we not gain a modicum of insight from the experience and recognize the propaganda being perpetrated on all of us, for over half a century? Add that to the fact that it still remains based upon the skewed and stilted philosophy of our dead and/or soon-to-be-dead former cold warriors, who continue to employ the exact same tactics in response to what they may perceive to be any successful form of on-going JFK research being carried out that doesn't tend to agree with or endorse the Warren Commission Lie. "Divide," "Confuse," and "Conquer." We lose if we continue to refuse to be united in a cohesive, organized front. We will continually play into their hands and into their game, each and every time we take pot-shots at one another. This is one of the main reasons why Bugliosi can get away with labeling our efforts as "the work done by kooks." I'm personally sick of being labeled a CT, or worse yet, a "buff." For crying out loud, we're either in this together, or we're out of it. Those who continue to harass, confound, attempt to harangue, or verbally assault those writers, authors, and men of letters here, for what appears to be the sheer pleasure they seemingly derive from their acts of belligerence, should remain "suspect" as to their real intentions. This point has become excruciatingly apparent since the outset of Bugliosi's book, and has been driven home in his scathing portrayal of the research community, and the utter contempt he holds for it. Just perhaps I am incorrect, however! 1. If someone clearly provides altered evidence, as well as the somewhat "sneaky" manner in which it was admitted into evidence, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands. 2. If someone clearly provides the multitudes of witness testimony which clearly demonstrate that Z313 WAS NOT the final shot fired in the shooting sequence, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands. 3. If someone clearly demonstrates the completely phony nature of the WC assassination re-enactment, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands. (vehicle speed/adjusted position/z-frame# alteration) 4. If someone clearly demonstrates that the US Secret Service, as well as the FBI, were clearly aware of the impact point of the third/last/final shot fired, begining in December 1963, yet the WC could not for whatever reason figure this out, it just may shake the foundation on which Mr. Bugliosi stands. There have been many "false prophets" who claimed that they were going to lead to the promised land. Some have followed the pathway of the "body snatcher" and wound alteration philosophy guru Some have followed the pathway of the "multiple assassin" (take your pick as to which location) philosophy guru. None of which pathways, that I am aware of, has actually lead to where it claimed it was going to take one too. And, which in reality merely carried one deeper into the labrinth of the lost. FACTUAL evidence will destroy Bugliosi, as well as the WC 40+ year old lie to the world. False prophets will not! Tom P.S. Terry; A significant element of any successful battle strategy is the inclusion of those elements which, when implemented, create confusion; misdirection; miscommunication; and dissention among the opposing forces. And in that regards, one should take a close look at "The Enemy Within"! However, winning a battle or two does not constitute having won the war. ************************************************************** P.S. Terry; A significant element of any successful battle strategy is the inclusion of those elements which, when implemented, create confusion; misdirection; miscommunication; and dissention among the opposing forces. And in that regards, one should take a close look at "The Enemy Within"! Thanks, Purv. Will follow through directly after logging on at amazon.com. "However, winning a battle or two does not constitute having won the war." I do copy, Purv. Quite rightly. Will report back after surveying the proposed data. Ter

The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country....... The truly sad fact ,is that we are fighting this "battle" in our home country Even more sad is the fact that the "Enemy" (WC/Posner/Bugliosi/Government Personnel) has merely given the CT Community the whistles, taken a seat on the sideline, and thereafter watched them confuse themselves in the attack. One can only imagine: 1. Over here, I see him behind the tree! 2. No he is not, I saw him down in the manhole. 3. You are all wrong, he was on top of the Dal-Tex Bldg. 4. All of you must be seeing things, he can clearly be observed: a. Behind the Stockade fence. b. On top of the overpass. c. Hiding in the SS Followup vehicle. d. Fill in the blank:-___________________ Perhaps one is correct when they claim that Bugliosi has won! Not unlike in a boxing match, I would suppose that if one punches himself in the face and knocks himself out, the opponenet still wins, even if he is merely standing around and watching. ********************************************************* Excellent propositions, and excellent analogies, Purv. What was that old adage the rabid right used to feed us when trying to persuade us of Red China's designs on dismantling Western democracy, "Divide and Conquer?" Supposedly, this was a form of propaganda devised to get the idea across that if we didn't stick together and fight the Iron Curtain, they would surely divide us up into little factions, and conquer us all, should we not cleave to each other to form an allied opposition. Well, at one time that may have all been well and good in the way of arousing patriotic zeal by invoking fear into the hearts and minds of the plebes. But what about those who would not be easily moved to follow such blind ambition and opportunism? On the other hand, and later on in the 20th Century, specifically toward the last two decades, when the James Clavell series came out and was made into one of those TV movie epics, Noble House, I believe it was. If one took it upon themselves to read his series starting with Shogun I and II, TaiPei, King Rat, Noble House I and II, one might get a completely different view of the Asian mindset than the one presented in the 1950's and the 1960's via Mockingbird's propaganda mill. Fast forward to the present day, and Sterling Seagrave's Gold Warriors. A completely different perspective from that which was intentionally foisted upon America in the 1950's. Why? Because the reality of the fact was not in the "Divide and Conquer," sloganeering of the Cold War years. The Asian philosophy was more on par with, "Don't get mad, get even." Therein lies the rub. The joke was on the dumb Americans. The Asian philosophical outlook was far more superior to the oafish brute force attitude of the Western World. Can we not gain a modicum of insight from the experience and recognize the propaganda being perpetrated on all of us, for over half a century? Add that to the fact that it still remains based upon the skewed and stilted philosophy of our dead and/or soon-to-be-dead former cold warriors, who continue to employ the exact same tactics in response to what they may perceive to be any successful form of on-going JFK research being carried out that doesn't tend to agree with or endorse the Warren Commission Lie. "Divide," "Confuse," and "Conquer." We lose if we continue to refuse to be united in a cohesive, organized front. We will continually play into their hands and into their game, each and every time we take pot-shots at one another. This is one of the main reasons why Bugliosi can get away with labeling our efforts as "the work done by kooks." I'm personally sick of being labeled a CT, or worse yet, a "buff." For crying out loud, we're either in this together, or we're out of it. Those who continue to harass, confound, attempt to harangue, or verbally assault those writers, authors, and men of letters here, for what appears to be the sheer pleasure they seemingly derive from their acts of belligerence, should remain "suspect" as to their real intentions. This point has become excruciatingly apparent since the outset of Bugliosi's book, and has been driven home in his scathing portrayal of the research community, and the utter contempt he holds for it.

*********************************************************** "Stephen....who do you really feel has their "heads in the sand"....or perhaps somewhere darker?" I believe this harks back to the original thesis set forth by me, with regard to the "dumbing-down" of the American educational system, and it's failure to impart a true picture of our historical, as well as, economical system. Which, IMHO appears to have hobbled the citizenry of this country as far as being able to thoroughly understand the mechanizations deliberately set in place, as a method of control and manipulation of the "masses." The involvement of "Mockingbird" and the insidious results of their efforts, have managed to cripple this country's present generation of the desire to exhibit any form of interest in what is involved in running a democratic republic. Especially, if it doesn't come across as palatable, or as easy to digest, or master, as being able to use their cellphones, download thousands of tunes to their I-pods, or master their hand-and-eye coordinative abilities via video games with their requisite play-stations. The latter, of course, being of value to those whose future will most likely be indoctrinated into joining one of the branches of the armed forces, no doubt. These manufactured distractions, along with the sound-bytes used to peddle their supposed entertainment value to the mass market via the corporate media and their sales blitz style of advertising campaigns, are nothing short of subliminal trickery. The best example of what seems to be "psychological" warfare, to come down the pike from those conservative "think tanks" in D.C. via Madison Avenue, since 1947. The term "heads-in-the-sand" refers to the tendency of ostriches to bury their heads in the sand in an attempt to hide from their predators. And, this is exactly what Mockingbird has been so successful in perpetrating upon the unsuspecting masses they have chosen to control, in the most "humane" form of manipulation at hand, visually attractive sales propaganda.

******************************************************** "...as Yeats observed "The center cannot hold" and this will not stand. Read Osymandius......" Excellent advice, Stephen.

******************************************************** Thank you, John D. Thank you, Charlie B. Thank you, Charles D. And, this is truly coming from the bottom of my heart. Sometimes I feel like that proverbial "Stranger In A Strange Land." I do so welcome the logic and rational discourse you [all] have been so generous in sharing and imparting to the membership of this forum. I guess that's why I tend to cling to it, for what becomes increasingly more apparent to me, as a necessary antidote against what I perceive to be a sinister tyrannous death grip presently holding the United States, with its "rabid dog" supporters of war, hostage as the world once again comes close to spiraling dangerously out of control. As we speak, the present fascistic administration infesting The White House is toying with the idea of resuming nuclear "above ground" testing. This information, coming on the heels of the last quarter of Talbot's book, which BTW, has reduced me to the level of tears on three separate occasions, so far. Therefore, I will continue my sojourn in speaking the political truth to those whose paths will inevitably cross mine, those who'll inadvertently broach the subject, when they sense the beat of a different drum, as frequently happens in this line of work I refer to as my profession. Having been hired based upon many years of experience, but also for excellent communication skills, from what the Annual Employee Evaluation reveals. I will continue to pass on my books to those, whom I believe can be counted upon to carry the torch, spread the word. It is imperative for me to do so. It is also the very least I can do in the way of educating those who want to learn. You've given me renewed faith, for which I am eternally grateful. Ter

Brian, there are plenty who see it the other way. They believe that, through the internet, kids are exposed to too much info, and too much BS, and that, as a result, they are increasingly prone to distrust the government. This fact is supported by the large amount of 9/11 skeptics among the young. I see kids wearing anti-Bush T-shirts almost every day. What we need is not more access to the young, but the opportunity to help then think critically. This forum was designed to help accomplish that purpose. Bugliosi's book may create a small bounce of WC apologists, but the JFK assassination does not pass the smell test of most Americans, and probably never will. The world is in a lot of trouble. The USA in relation to the rest of the world is immensely wealthy. But even within the USofA the disparity of wealth and opportunity is enormous. As long as people 'feel' there are opportunities and that sense gratification is readily catered for, the opiate of the people, whether it be religion or ipods, there is a measure of control that the status quo relies on. Similarly, a significant portion 'feeling' that they have no power disarms them and playing in the various sandpits provided makes the day's go by with a measure of satisfaction. Still, what do these youth, as they congregate in what to the outsider may look like selfish ignorant persuits, really think and talk about? Concurrently with all the 'dumbing down' is an increase in the contradictions that at some point must fracture. It is at this time that the human innate sense of justice, that all children are born with, can bring about positive changes. This happened in the sixties. When the next wave comes, it is incumbent on those who know better to take a leading role, and if their rhetoric resonates with truth they naturally, quickly, displace the dis-informationists. Therein lies the absolute need by the status quo for covert disruption and divertion. One lesson to be learnt from the sixties and part of the seventies is that there is a loss of innocence regarding the powers to be having the peoples interests at heart. It is possible to predict responses and act accordingly. A proper, focused, preparedness, even by a courageous few can make all the difference. One should be aware that these people exist, and they will spring to prominence when the time comes. In the meantime, the distortions and contradictions of the status quo continually plants the seeds of its own eventual destruction. It's a Law of Nature. It is in this context that the books like Bugliosi's and the various TV programs should be viewed. Not as a sign of loss, but as a sign of desperation by those who will eventually lose. Youth naturally question the 'wisdom' of their elders. When it no longer makes sense, or as in 'South Park': "I plead Chewbacca", a critical mass is reached and the means for rapid spread of word of mouth and now with the means of communication available that were then not available can be desicive. The status quo is already preempting these events by shows of force, ie having a country at war, and all attendant local surveillance and rapid response teams, as well as controlling scholarships and education funding and flooding areas of discontent with drugs and other means of control like 'entertainment'. The mention of the Roman 'Circus' is apt. However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture. _________________________ The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been. _________________________ War, if that is what one wishes to se it as, is a series of battles, back and forth. Defeatism is not the way. One may wait and regroup, take a breather, but that's all. What is happening is a crumbling of the status quo. That may disturb some and contribute to a sense of loss. However, it doesn't take much to see the glass as half full rather than half empty. Country after country across the globe are throwing off the yokes of yesteryears and there is much to be optimistic about. However depending on optimism implies room for pessimism. Optimism sans 'workism' is pointless. Traditionally leftists make good historians when they remember as Che' repeating advice in the beginning of his motorcycle diaries: (paraphrasing) all one has to do is describe the situation as it is, without embellishment. The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is literacy. In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions. ________________________________ of interest: Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play "...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals". ********************************************************* "However, basically, there are good people around in all levels of society who will, when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up. So, of course, the control mechanisms are often focused on them and their culture." I wonder where they're at, right now, John. As it seems as if the only ones standing up are the ones here on this forum, and the other two forums I tend to frequent. When it comes to the average Joe Blow, or the proverbial "man-on-the-street," they either seem to consciously go out of their way to avoid any political discourse, or expressions of opinions on the subject matter, at all costs, or tend to parrot the rabid rights' "war on terrorism" manifesto, as a means of justifying the carnage going on in the Middle East. As long as it isn't affecting their ability to buy gas for their vehicles, as long as their jobs aren't being directly affected by anything now, or in the near future, they remain mute when asked for their thoughts, as if the mere idea might put a curse on their idyllic existence. As you reiterated, "when push comes to shove, speak out, and people, initially youth, will stand up." Like with the loss of a job, or their livelihood being outsourced to a Third World Banana Republic. Then, and only then. "The notion of 70-80 as an average IQ is an oxymoron. The average is 100. It always has been." Is that right? Well, maybe in your neck of the woods, John. But, I'm speaking in terms of what I've observed here, in the United States, only. Do you dispute the fact that the schools of the U.S. are statistically far behind on the education scale, than say their counterparts in other areas of the globe? "The reader will naturally gravitate to a proper understanding. The pen IS mightier than the sword, it always has been. That's why the first on the agenda of totalitarian states (Engels: "The State is a body of armed men") is to censor. It's also why one of the first on the agenda of successful progressive revolutions, apart from redistribution of land and wealth (agrarian reform), is literacy. I should certainly hope so. In effect therein is the overweaning need to 'dumb down' the population of a society twisted by internal contradictions." Don't you mean, "overwhelming?" "Twisted" is putting it mildly, to say the least. "Thought Conceit - http://plusroot.com/dbook/12conceit.html an interesting article discussing some of the forces at play "...thought conceit still causes grave problems in three prominent areas. The first area is in a portion of people who have not enjoyed the benefits of a good education. The second area is in the mentally unstable. The third area is in select intellectual circles enamored with sophisticated radical ideologies. Radical ideologies encourage biased intrigues and, as these antagonistic procedures reinforce each other, they polarize society into angry factions where winning is first and truth of little count. Of the three, the gravest danger comes from preemptive dialectics promoted by negative oriented intellectuals"." What, exactly, are you wishing to convey here, John? I've always admired your logical analysis of the situation, at hand. But, on this particular occasion, I'll have to admit, I'm stumped. Must be all that dumbing-down I suffered at the hands of those radical intellectuals I supported during the 1960's and the Vietnam War.

*********************************************************** While I deplore the deceitful tactics employed by Operation Mockingbird, as well as the success they've established in managing to manipulate the minds and pocket books of mainstream America, I will not be moved, nor swayed from my positional understanding with regard to the unwitting willingness with which the mass populace allows themselves to be lured into this false sense of security. Is it because Mockingbird, with all its experimental subliminal suggestions via visual aids, has somehow succeeded in subjugating the mental acuity of the western cultures' populace to that of the level of a moron? What can be said for a large swath of the citizenry, whose intelligence quotients fail to add up to 80, whose sense of time and place, geographical, political, historical, bear little in the way of significance or importance to their "lifestyles" when challenged by i-pods, video games, hip-hop, fifth rate motion pictures of banal content, eight commercial TV channels which are, for the most part, merely vehicles used for airing advertisements of useless products via psycho-suggestive pictographics. And, let's not leave out the cable networks and their incessant knack for redundancy in their choice of subject matter, in particular, "Clear Channel." The repetitive reinforcement of values that belie humane concern and involvement in anything other than what's happening in the lives of a Paris Hilton, Madonna, or Angelina Jolie, and their assorted escapades, especially the obsessive adoptive proclivities of Jolie, leave one to ponder what logic inspires someone to want to subject children to the unwarranted scrutiny of a celebrity's fishbowl existence. Wouldn't one's, not to mention one's childrens, best interests be served by bowing out of the spotlight altogether, when attempting to raise a child in a somewhat "normal" environment, especially a child of another race or culture unfamiliar with white-bread America? As long as mainstream America [i.Q. 70 - 80] submits to, and continues to accept, this form of subliminal indoctrination as the status quo, the further this country, and its people will slip into the abyss of complacency and ignorance specifically designed for, marketed by, and targeted them, by the very machinations that produced and directed the coup d'etat. It's all about money, the bottom line, and pushing that eternal, infernal American Nightmare. You know the one I'm referring to, where everyone can be a king in their castle, just as long as they have a late model SUV, 50" Plasma Screen "Media" Station, cellphones in every color of the rainbow to match every pair of shoes, or underwear you possess, Nike Air-Jordans, a house in Bel Air, or a house, PERIOD, if they're ever able to afford one. JUST DO IT!!! As the sound-byte commands you to do. My only weapon of defense against a dumbed-down populace is the written word based upon true facts and figures to support my thesis. I end up giving away more books to those whom I really wish to enlighten, those who can be entrusted to spread the word, to pass on those facts which are being censored or stone-walled by the major media giants and outlets, all of whom are infected with greed, avarice, and mendacity. They are the enemy, and I've seen their eyes. If KCET and KLCS persist in airing that film of Robert Stone's, they must must be implored to air a film of an alternate opinion from which to counter Robert Stone's vehicle. We must continue to counter the opposition. Any suggestions for an alternate film, preferably in the format of a documentary, would be appreciated, as I don't think TMWKK would be allowed to fly in the present climate. In parting, may I suggest you get up off of your pity-potty and actively pursue getting your word out to the right people, spend your hard earned money on books to educate the children, who are definitely not getting a fair shake in the schools they're forced to attend, and expend your energies in countering any challenging op-eds in your local newspapers, when given the right topic to pique your interest, rather than risk slipping into a depressive state, or worse. At least, make yourself be heard. You never know who might be listening and may benefit from your knowledge on a subject.

***************************************************** And, after reading this again, all I can say is, DL, you made me real proud to know you as a friend. Love, Ter

********************************************************** "It quickly became obvious that perhaps 85% of those in the room did not believe the Warren Report—either before, or after his film; and the great majority believed Dallas was the result of a conspiracy." "One Brief Shining Moment," to quote Manchester. "What Stone was saying was pure drivel. He not only had no intention of dealing with the forensics—he didn't even know the forensics." Robert Stone, is that his name? Is he a shrink? If so, he's obviously not a shrink in the same sense of the meaning of the word, as that of a psychiatrist. A psychiatrist has an M.D. after his name, which I would presume, if Robert Stone was in possession of said credentialing following his name, would not have tried to pass off the subject of forensics with such ridiculous abandonment. Is he then, to be considered a "psychologist" [not a medical doctor]? If so, did this certification therefore qualify him as an expert with enough of a track record in treating human psychosis that he could be then be elected as a quantifiable spokesperson on behalf of the psychological welfare and mental health of a nation which had witnessed the trauma of the events surrounding November 22, 1963? I seriously doubt this. "I'm sorry that the film maker never pointed out the importance of the evidence indicating the autopsy was falsified, and the connection between that concept, and the invalidity of evidence indicating Oswald's alleged guilt. I'm glad the film contains Oswald's statement "I'm just a patsy," but its most unfortunate, and shows Stone's bias, that he didn't see fit to include what Oswald told his brother Robert, on November 23, 1963, when Robert visited him in jail. When Robert challenged Lee, asking what the devil was going on, Lee responded, "Do not believe the so-called 'evidence.'" That goes way beyond "I'm just a patsy." That shows a man perfectly aware that he is being framed." This is what is seared in my memory for all time, and what chillingly lead me to believe that they were literally trying to frame this guy. His body language was totally indicative of someone who had just been set up to take a fall. And, this was way before the term "body language," and the study thereof, would ever enter the American lexicon. I could clearly perceive this through my eighteen-year-old eyes and ears, at the time it was happening. DL, how did I manage to miss this? Was it a private screening, at invitation only? I ended up working until 20:30 that night, anyway. But, had I known, maybe I could've gotten someone to have taken over for me, or if given enough time, been able to have rescheduled a few of my later patients to come in earlier in the day. In any event, you made me proud of your stand against that obvious charlatan. And, if KCET, or KLCS insists on airing it, I've informed them that I will withdraw any future money and support that I've been so generous with, in the past. I'm so glad you were able to hook up with Pat Speer and Clint Bradford, and to kind of close ranks around those people. It always helps to appear in numbers and present the viable alternative when presented with another such an obvious "whitewash" of the facts. Thanks for the pictures, too. Talk to you later. Ter