Jim Hargrove

That doesn't match at all what Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire witnessed.  From James Douglass's JFK and the Unspeakable:

Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.”[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.”[445] When I questioned the comparison by asking, “Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?” he said, “Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.”[446] After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater.[447]

What happened next we can learn from another neglected witness, Bernard Haire.[448]

Bernard J. Haire was the owner of Bernie’s Hobby House, just two doors east of the Texas Theater. Haire went outside his store when he saw police cars congregating in front of the theater.[449] When he couldn’t see what was happening because of the crowd, he went back through his store into the alley out back. It, too, was full of police cars, but there were fewer spectators. Haire walked up the alley. When he stopped opposite the rear door of the theater, he witnessed what he would think for decades was the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

“Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer. “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”[450]

When Haire was told in 1987 that Lee Harvey Oswald had been brought out the front of the theater by police, he was shocked.

“I don’t know who I saw arrested,” he said in bewilderment.[451]

Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire are complementary witnesses. From their perspectives both inside and outside the Texas Theater, they saw an Oswald double arrested and taken to a police car in the back alley only minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Burroughs’s and Haire’s independent, converging testimonies provide critical insight into the mechanics of the plot. In a comprehensive intelligence scenario for Kennedy’s and Tippit’s murders, the plan culminated in Oswald’s Friday arrest and Sunday murder (probably a fallback from his being set up to be killed in the Texas Theater by the police).

There is a hint of the second Oswald’s arrest in the Dallas police records. According to the Dallas Police Department’s official Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theatre at 231 W. Jefferson.”[452]

Dallas Police detective L. D. Stringfellow also reported to Captain W. P. Gannaway, “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.”[453]

NOTES:

444. Author’s interview of Burroughs, July 16, 2007. Butch Burroughs is a man of few words. When asked a question, he answers exactly what he is asked. Burroughs told me no one had ever asked him before about a second arrest in the Texas Theater. In response to my question, “Now you didn’t see anybody else [besides Oswald] get arrested that day, did you?” he answered, “Yes, there was a lookalike—an Oswald lookalike.” In response to further questions, he described the second arrest, that of the “Oswald lookalike.” Ibid. Because Butch Burroughs saw neither Oswald nor his lookalike enter the Texas Theater, each must have gone directly up the balcony stairs on entering. Oswald crossed the balcony and came down the stairs on the far side of the lobby. There he entered the orchestra seats and began his seat-hopping, in apparent search of a contact. His lookalike sneaked into the theater at 1:45 P.M. and, like Oswald, went immediately up the balcony stairs. By the time Burroughs witnessed the Oswald double’s arrest, he had also come down the balcony stairs on the far side of the lobby, either on his own or already accompanied by police who had been checking the balcony. 

445. §
Ibid. 

446. §
Ibid. 

447. §
Ibid. 

448. §
In the data base of the JFK Records Act at the National Archives, there is no record of Bernard Haire. Archivist Martin F. McGann to James Douglass, July 20, 2007. 

449. §
In a photo taken about 1:50 P.M., November 22, 1963, that shows people gathering around the police cars in front of the Texas Theater, Bernard Haire can be seen at the edge of the crowd, leaning on a parking meter and trying to see. Photo by Stuart L. Reed; on p. 68, Myers, With Malice. 

450. §
Bernard J. Haire interview by Jim Marrs, summer 1987. Crossfire, p. 354. 

451. §
Ibid. 

452. §
Dallas Police Department Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, November 22, 1963. Reproduced in With Malice, p. 447 (emphasis added). 

453. §
Letter from Detective L. D. Stringfellow to Captain W. P. Gannaway, November 23, 1963, Dallas City Archives. Cited in Harvey & Lee, p. 871 (emphasis added). 
 

On 7/18/2019 at 8:38 PM, Chris Bristow said:

The image of 133a from the newspaper looked extra weird because the width was shrunk by roughly 25%. I corrected the width and now the head does not look so strange.
  Some objects will change size significantly as exposure increases. Light objects get bigger and dark ones smaller. So not everything in the 2 photos will match perfectly.
They also lost some things due to the contrast, exposure  or the low resolution. Much of the subtle shades were lost. They added some things like his ears that must have been lost in the over exposed area around his head..
 Because the shirt has no detail I don't think we would be able to see the scope whether it is there or not. 
 The arrow points to the brightest part of the scope on the left image and the same reflection may be visible in the newspaper photo.
I think it is likely that the scope is there but not visible against the blackness of the shirt.

Chris,

Just doing a rough measurement on my monitor, this doesn't appear particularly close to the "8-head count" technique some artists use to measure the size of the head to the entire head to toe body length.



I'd certainly agree that the quality of the reproduction in these newspaper archives could well obscure a scope against the dark background, although the "highlights" your arrows point to exist in abundance all over the rightmost photo.  John A. and I have both been trying to locate a copy of the original Newsweek to see if the reproduction is any clearer.

Bear in mind, though, that these reports are from the mainstream U.S. press, hardly a hotbed of conspiracy theories.  My bet is that more than one person saw enough detail in a version of this photo to conclude the scope was absent, but I'd sure like to get a copy of that Newsweek. From memory, John A thinks that it may be the April 22, 1964 edition of Newsweek.  I've been unable to find it or even confirm there was an issue on that exact date. 

Can anyone provide ANY copy of a Back Yard Photo rifle and scope that matches the actual rifle/scope at the National Archives? 

Setting up Harvey Oswald as the Patsy

During author James Douglas's 2007 interview of Butch Burroughs,  Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater.  He saw the arrest of Classic Oswald® and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike."  Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something."

As we all know, Classic Oswald was arrested on the main floor of the Texas Theater.  But for nearly two decades now, I’ve posted on my website about John Armstrong’s research two DPD docs showing a “Lee Harvey Oswald” was also arrested in the balcony.

31 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Hey Jim, ya think that maybe the bus and taxi BS was created to negate one of Dallas' finest's recollection, brought up in front of Oswald and commented upon?
Or do you think Craig was lying.... too?

No, there’s a much simpler explanation requiring far fewer lies.  Two guys who looked similar shared the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” the remnants of a spy game.  Both were involved in the events around Dealey Plaza on 11-22-63.  One framed the other for the assassination of JFK (including providing an LHO/Hidell wallet to Westbrook).  One left Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler, the other on a bus and taxi.  Simple.

David,

I think "Oswald" probably held onto the transfer because he was told to, just as he was instructed to board the bus.  Do you know how many people had to conspire to come up with a false bus and taxi ride?  As John A. wrote on our website:

To these naysayers, I would ask them to simply identify the person or persons who came up with the idea to fabricate a story in which the bus and taxi rider never happened. I would ask them to name the person or persons who had the knowledge, presence, and ability to fabricate such a hoax within hours of Oswald's arrest.

I would remind naysayers that Oswald himself said during his first and second interrogations that he rode a bus, long before the police knew about Cecil McWatters. And Oswald made these statements in the presence of Capt. Fritz, James Hosty, Thomas Kelley, James Bookhout, and numerous officers. These people took notes, made reports, and/or gave WC testimony about statements made by Oswald. These naysayers would have us believe that a person or persons unknown convinced all of these people (SS agents Kelley, Nully and Forrest: FBI agents Hosty, Grant, Odum and Bookout; US Marshall Nash; Capt Fritz, DPD officers Sims, Boyd, Turner, Hall, Dhority, Owens, Leavelle, and Senkel, taxi driver Whaley, bus driver McWatters, bus passengers Bledsoe and Jones, bus and taxi officials) to lie and go along with a fabricated story that the bus and taxi ride never happened. But no matter how much evidence researchers produce to prove that Oswald rode on a bus and in a taxi on 11/22/63, we can be sure that irresponsible naysayers can and will find the most trivial, superficial, and inconsequential reasons to continue their criticism.

David,

Fritz's notes are concrete, and they say "Oswald" himself said he took the bus, and later said he also took the taxi. 

Transfer #004459 is concrete, and it came from McWatters' transfer book.  Do you think the DPD invented it in just a couple of hours?

Do you really believe that the U.S. Army employee who photographed the TSBD, the infamous shoe store, "Oswald's" arrest in front of the theater, just happened to take two photos of a random bus?  Really?

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  Shall we go over more concrete evidence?

The one thing all the conflicting images of the BYP rifle/scope have in common is that NONE OF THEM MATCH THE RIFLE IN EVIDENCE!  Last Monday I posted that S.F. Chronicle article with a photo showing “Oswald” holding the rifle without a scope.  Note that it was listed as an “A.P. Wirephoto.”  Many, probably most, American daily newspapers subscribed to the Associated Press wire service.  

Here’s the same story, edited slightly differently, as it appeared in the Newark Star-Ledger.

The story in both papers says the photo came from Newsweek magazine, which obtained it from the Dallas Police.  What a farce!

And so we have a picture (pictures) of the alleged assassin, in comic book fashion, holding the rifle that allegedly killed JFK, the pistol that allegedly killed Tippit, and the newspaper proving he’s a commie.  It was designed clearly to tell America and the world that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was guilty.  And it is complete crapola, just like all the other so-called evidence against “Oswald.”   
 

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

If one buys the WC, then this is a serious problem.  How on earth can anyone explain Oswald leaving the scene by a public bus, getting off and walking back to the scene of the crime,  hailing a cab, offering it to a little old lady, then getting in and then taking the cab five blocks away from your rooming house?

Because “Oswald” was instructed to get on the bus, as the Stuart Reed photos virtually prove.  The rest he improvised when the bus got stuck in traffic.

I’m pleased to announce that forum member John Butler’s visual comparison of several versions of the BYP rifle(s) has been published on HarveyandLee.net.  There’s a link to John’s study near the end of the Back Yard Photo Rifle page, and his article itself appears HERE.

Thanks, John!

As a pen-pal of mine noted, the scope-less rifle shown in the newspaper article above may have been taken to Dial Ryder's to be fitted with a scope. 

A framing plot that was abandoned, or saved as an alternative if needed?

3 hours ago, Michael Cross said:

This really, to me, is a massive find.  What the actual F is this? Such massive photo alteration . . . and yet maybe that is the actual rifle from the photos?  Wow.

Thanks, Michael.  It surprised me too. John B. found a BYP image of a rifle without a scope and I decided to do some more searching.   There is so much chicanery going on with the “Back Yard Photos” it is practically proof by itself that “Oswald” was framed.

John,

Are you sure Keflavik is a military/intel facility?  I had layovers last summer at Keflavik airport flying to and from Copenhagen.  It’s a big airport for such a little island, filled with connecting flights between N.A. and Northern Europe.  We walked the entire length of the town of Keflavik’s commercial area in just a few minutes.

At any rate, I’m unaware of any Oswald/Iceland connection, including during his travels to and from the U.S.S.R. There is a modest Icelandic connection to Albert Osborne, aka John Howard Bowen, who supposedly sat next to “Oswald” traveling in Mexico. 

The most detailed description of “Oswald’s” return to the U.S. I know of is in Harvey and Lee starting around p. 390.  According to the evidence we have, he and Marina went from Minsk to Moscow, where they stayed for more than a week, and from there by rail to Rotterdam, where they boarded the SS Maasden to Hoboken, New Jersey (near New York City). 

46 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim Hargrove and Jim DiEugenio,

Reed's photos are even more conspiratorial than those above - check this out: Reed took a photo of the front of Hardy's Shoes, site of the infamous (nonexistent) Johnny Brewer/"Oswald" encounter! This was BEFORE Brewer had emerged in the public eye!

Reed took one of the sidewalk from Hardy's Shoes to the Texas Theater. (The route "Oswald" would have walked.)

Reed took one looking east to the TSBD while riding past the Triple Underpass - it shows the route the limo took to Parkland, but notice, Reed centered the TSBD. Reed took this while riding out to Oak Cliff. This was waaaaaay before anyone knew anything!

No wonder the FBI had a cow when they saw these! These were proof positive of prior knowledge of the "official" version of the assassination. Robert Groden told me that Stuart Reed told him that Reed was on a cruise ship in the Gulf of Mexico within two days of the assassination, but the FBI chartered a helicopter to fly directly to the cruise ship to get the above affidavit. The FBI then buried those photos. 

This link takes you to the entire Stuart Reed photo montage (I know it is from the Prayer Man site, and I am not going down that road right now, but just look at the photos!)

http://www.prayer-man.com/stuart-reed/#lightbox[group]/8/

Incredible!  The Hardy's Shoes image is complete news to me (as is the TSBD shot from the Triple underpass). 

Anyone know of better versions of the two shots than the crappy images Southeastern sold them?  Thanks Paul.

I just found this searching through a newspaper database.  Click on the story to enlarge it.

Jim,

Here are the photos Reed took:

Chris,

I own a very well-preserved copy of the 2/21/64 edition of LIFE magazine and I’m staring at the cover right now.  I’ve examined the rifle’s scope under bright light and with a magnifying glass and am inclined to agree with your description of it, but we need to remember that these prints are lithographic halftones (comprised of tiny dots) that may give away some details. Still, my bet is your description is correct.

On close examination, the dark shirt behind what you call the “nub” end of the scope has some texture, some slight folding, and even a feint highlight.  I can’t imagine faking all this in order to shorten the scope.  If anything (and this is a guess) it might show that the whole scope was added, in at least two different (and both incorrect) lengths.  I can’t imagine an innocent explanation.

Curiously, LIFE put the image on both the cover and on p. 80 of it’s 2/21/64 edition.  Extensive photo credits are listed on the Contents page, but nothing is listed for the cover or the BYP illustration on p. 80.  The only credit given for p. 80 is the smaller photo at the top of the page of Marina and June.  As for the provenance of the BYP, LIFE editors clearly aren’t talking.

In the p. 80 photo caption, however, the editors are happy to say that “Dallas police have confirmed that this is the rifle found in the Texas Book Depository.” Somebody didn’t look very closely... or didn’t want to. I'm very surprised that this took more than half a century to come to light.

11 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Let me guess ---- You, Jim Hargrove, are one of those CTers who doesn't even believe Lee H. Oswald got into William Whaley's taxicab on November 22, 1963, despite Whaley confirming via a positive identification that his passenger was, indeed, the "real" Lee Harvey Oswald? Is that about the size of the situation?

IOW --- The "Nothing Is Ever What It Seems To Be In The JFK Case" syndrome surfaces yet again.

(And Oswald was never on McWatters' bus either, was he Jim?)

Holy cow, DVP, you're as clueless about my beliefs as you are about this case.  Every belief you ascribe to me above is wrong!  But that doesn't keep you from rattling on and on and on.  An "Oswald" did ride the bus and taxi, while another rode in the Nash Rambler, and the proof is HERE!

On 7/12/2019 at 8:46 PM, David Von Pein said:

When Oswald (no quotation marks needed) got into William Whaley's cab....

WRONG, David, as you well know.  There is every reason on earth to put "Oswald" in quotes.  Are you trying yet again to fool the newbies with your bs?

Everything else Mr. Von Pein says is also wrong!  And we all know it!

For starters, see HarveyandLee.net

A question for the honest members of this forum:  Should we bother debating Mr. Von Pein?  

Chris, DJ, John B....

Megathanks for your responses.  I’ve been out of state with only a cell phone for several days, and so please pardon my delay in responding to a number of your posts.  (I’m reluctant to announce on the internet that I’ll soon be traveling and leaving my house empty.)  But.... 

I just got home an hour or two ago and haven’t had much time to study the issues raised, but if I understand them properly, the one serious issue remaining unresolved in this thread is whether the image I posted of CE 133A has been altered (retouched).  So....

If anyone has a CLEAR image of the BYP rifle scope that differs substantially from the one I offer below, please post so we can discuss.  I’m planning to up on HarveyandLee.net tomorrow John Butler’s visual analysis of all of this,  and so if there are any additional concerns about the image I provided him to analyze, I’d like to consider them asap. 

According to Google Images, the photo I determined represented most clearly CE 133A was  from Encyclopedia Britannica and looked like this:  

I used the Linux version of Gnu Image Manipulator Program (GIMP)  to rotate and crop just the rifle from the picture above to provide the companion photo to CE 139 (an image of "Oswald's" Carcano in evidence at the National Archives).  Here is the comparison we've been debating:

14 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Sure.  I'll see what I can do.  I'll base what I do on your rifle photos.  At one time I had your email address, but I have had to change email programs and no longer do.  Please send that again.

I'll send it by email so that you can edit it and use only what you consider valuable.

 

The addition of the close-up of Day holding the rifle is fascinating!  I still have your email address and so I’ll send you a note. 

Chris,

That does sound possible, but I can’t tell from the BYP image whether the end of the barrel is closer to the camera than the shoulder end of the stock.  Can you?
 

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Chris Barstow may very well be right is suspecting that the scope is a put together cut and paste item.  I base this not only on the scope other features pointed to in this crop and enlargement of the BYP rifle.

The arrow that points to the scope area has already had peculiarities described.  The arrow pointing to the bolt handle is another problem.  I don't think you will be able to find another photo of a bolt handle of a rifle that looks like that.  When compared to the WC photo that handle clearly screams cut and paste fraud. 

The long spidery fingers are very weird.  The smallest finger has a extra large appearance at the end of the finger.  The last and second to last fingers there do not appear to have knuckles at the bottom of the hand.  There are deep shadows separating those fingers suggesting no knuckles there.  And, they should be there.  The first and middle fingers have irregular outlines and distorted shapes that suggest cut and pasting.  But, they do have an area between fingers that shows the bottom part of the hand are knuckles as versus the other part of the hand.  The knuckles should be in a line straight across the bottom of the hand as shown here.

The thumb is thicker than one should be in comparison to the fingers.

This suggests that the M-C rifle in the BYP didn't have a scope on the rifle and one was added.  Who would of ever thought of that? 

John,

One person who wondered if the BYP rifle was originally without a scope was John Armstrong, who discussed his suspicion with me several times.  It would, for the first time, explain the Dial Ryder incident.  If the rifle didn’t have a scope, then it would be necessary to put one on it.  That would explain why an undated repair tag was placed in Ryder’s repair shop that said, “drill and tap $4.50” and “bore sight $1.50.”  And why several people called the authorities to report that fact, even though Ryder said he told no one about it over the weekend.

But, after the scope magically appeared on the backyard photo, the Ryder rescue was no longer needed.

As appealing as that explanation was, we believe the scope was always on the BYP rifle.  For one thing, there is Gus Rose’s 11-23-63 report that he turned in “2 negatives of Lee Harvey Oswald holding rifle with scope.”

It might be argued that Rose could see the public reports as well as anyone else and realize that the rifle  should damn well have a scope!  But we have little indication that he was untruthful otherwise.

To me, though, it seems that if you’re going to go to all the trouble to paste a scope on a picture of a rifle, wouldn't you make it at least approximately the right size?  This one clearly wasn’t close. 

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

Here's one for Chris to work on.

Are the two rifles the same as measured from the end of the front part of the stock to the end of the rifle.  The WC rifle barrel at the end, illustrated by the red line just to show the correct area,  measures roughly 35 mm and the BYP rifle at the end measures 37 mm. 

Is this true or simply the difference in the size of the rifles portrayed here?

Interesting! With just a quick measurement on my monitor, it sure looks as if the barrel of CE 139 protrudes beyond the wooden stock slightly less than in the BYP.  Not a huge difference, but quite easily measured!   

Would you be interested in putting together a graphic summarizing all these anomalies that we could use on the web page?  We’d be happy to credit you. 

7 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I will only quibble a little with this. You could also say it appears the image of the rifle and scope may have been tampered with. It could be a different scope used by Roscoe White or it is the same rifle with photographic alteration to bring out the dark image of the scope or correct an error in the cut and paste.
 When I draw a horizontal line along the scope and base it on the front and middle section it all looks good. But if I extend the line that was based on the front and middle thru the back of the scope it suddenly shows a pronounced angle. That rear section does not line up with the front and middle. I could be seeing things but take a look at that issue for yourself and see what you see.

No doubt a discovery of this importance begs for careful vetting, and so I appreciate the discussion, Chris.  We agree, apparently, that the only way for the two rifle/scope combos to be identical is for one or both images to have been retouched.  (Please correct me if you disagree.)

If I understand your concern correctly, you feel that the back part (toward the end of the rifle barrel) of the scope in the BYP does not line up with the front and middle parts and that it therefore may have been added.  You agree with me, I think, that the net effect of retouching the BYP scope would have been to significantly shorten it, thus requiring the addition of clothing and, perhaps, a thumb, to fill in behind the missing part of the retouched scope.  This alone strikes me as exceptionally difficult and unlikely in 1963 or 1964.

Let’s look again at your study: 

You indicate that the red lines in the small rectangular inset are not totally straight, and I agree, though the lack of alignment is slight.  But if you redrew the lines with a straight edge from one end of the BYP scope to the other, I suspect a reasonable case could be made that, within the limits of resolution and insufficient grey scales, they do align.

What always struck me as a little unusual about the barrel end of the BYP scope is that it seems to get gradually wider toward the end.  The same part of the scope in CE 139 seems to get wider only toward the end of the tube.  This, of course, may be a function of resolution and lack of contrast, or it may be, as I suspect, the fact that they’re different scopes.