5 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Blanks have cartridges that are different from a normal shell casing, FYI 

So, Mathew, here's a tactical question that I pondered while studying A Lie Too Big to Fail.

If you (and Ben Cole) had staged the RFK assassination op at the Ambassador Hotel-- involving Sirhan as the hypnotically-programmed "Manchurian" decoy/patsy and Thane Eugene Cesar (and, possibly, others) as the assassin(s) -- would you have given Sirhan a gun loaded with real bullets?

Recall that Cesar was standing right next to (and lightly behind) RFK in the pantry.

Would you and Ben have risked having your decoy/patsy shoot your designated assassin(s) at close range?

17 minutes ago, Robert Morrow said:

I once met a young man in 1988 who was completely normal at the YMCA. We were just chatting away, having a normal conversation then he comes in with "and people mistake me for Jesse Jackson all he time." As I knew him over time, he would come in with these whoppers which he truly believed in .

This was a blonde haired white male in his early 20s and yes, he had a mustache, but he looked nothing like Jesse Jackson of 1988

He later told me he was under treatment for schizophrenia from the local mental health clinic.

 

Check with Dr. Ben Cole on that diagnosis, Robert.

Perhaps we should all ignore Harvard psychologist, Dr. Daniel Brown's, stellar forensic evaluation of Sirhan's dissociative disorder and defer to our resident expert from Thailand.

Based on his critique of Dr. Brown, Ben must have extensive knowledge and experience with hypnosis and the evaluation of dissociative disorders.  🙄

4 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Ron, are you sure you're not just mesmerized after looking at that dude's steely blue eyes for an hour.?

Rasputin's got nothing on this guy!

I wonder if he's ever not in "hyptnotizer mode?"

and maybe he has a hidden neck brace, because the guy just doesn't move his head!

As Matt pointed out, Sirhan is lucid and very articulate in that interview with David Frost.

Contrary to what somebody posted here, there was never a MSM suppression of Sirhan's reasons for shooting RFK..

Ben, Of course you realize that to some here, that story of harassment just lends him credibility!

And generally exotic explanations have more lure.

I don't think we could have had such a critical conversation 5 years ago. I'm not saying the "Manchus" ruled the day, but  it was left as a strong innuendo and no one was really pushing back.

We've all heard the evidence that the fatal shot came from behind RFK's ear.

 I see the Manchurian Candidate as iffy, but I don't completely discount it.

I just don't buy it from this guy.

Kirk,

    Most people don't understand psychiatric phenomena -- schizophrenia, mania, dissociation, etc.-- until they observe cases first hand.

     This is also true in cases of hypnosis and dissociative identity disorders, like Sirhan.  Such people may appear perfectly rational and normal in non-dissociated states.  But their pathognomonic symptom, as I learned from Dr. Martin Orne, himself, is amnesia for dissociated experiences.

      I treated patients during my career who had experienced fugue states and alter personality states for which they had total amnesia-- like ordering childhood-appropriate crayons and craft supplies from Amazon, in child-like alter states, then being surprised (as adults) when the crayons were delivered to their home.

      I had another patient who would sometimes talk and act like a 5 year old during sessions, and, at other times, would come to the office in short skirts, acting and talking like a flirtatious teenager.  She was in her 60s.

       IMO, Dr. Daniel Brown's forensic assessment of Sirhan's dissociative disorder is accurate and impressive.

       The same thing is true of Estabrook's 1943 textbook and case studies.

Addendum:  Would the guys who orchestrated the RFK assassination op have wanted Sirhan to fire actual bullets at their own hit men, Mathew?  I doubt it.

8 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

That book while very well written has a fatal flaw and it's that Sirhan was shooting blanks. There is just no way that he could have given the amount of people who were shot/bullet holes in the pantry door way and ceiling. The other part that has not been explored is that Sirhan's Lawyers and alot of the people in the plot connect to Mickey Cohen. 

There were, certainly, a lot of bullets fired in the kitchen.

But Robert doesn't seem to realize that Sirhan was standing a few feet in front of RFK during his murder.

Sirhan was never in a position to fire the fatal shot at point-blank range behind RFK's ear.

Geez... The Democrats have abandoned their working class base, Roger?

What planet are you living on?  

Have you studied the recent Congressional GOP proposals to de-fund Social Security for the American working class, in order to pay for the Bush/Trump/GOP billionaire tax cuts of 2001, 2003, and 2017?

Have you studied the history of Reaganomic GOP tax cuts for billionaires during the past 40 years-- and the GOP "Starve-the-Beast" agenda to de-fund landmark Democratic programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid?

Have you studied the history of the Koch/GOP/Tea Party campaign, since 2009, to sabotage the Affordable Care Act and climate change mitigation?

Have you read Professor Nancy MacLean's classic text, Democracy in Chains?

Amazon.com: Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right's Stealth Plan for America: 9781101980972: MacLean, Nancy: Books

Last question.  Are you familiar with Marx's concept of "false consciousness"-- i.e., the working class delusion that rich people are concerned about the welfare of the working class?

28 minutes ago, Robert Morrow said:

The key to understanding the RFK assassination is knowing the justifiable rage festering in the hearts of the Palestinians over decades of abuse by Israel which is why someone like Sirhan Sirhan, a Palestinian CHRISTIAN, would behave the way he did (not that it justifies assassinating Robert Kennedy).

The key to understanding the USS Liberty is knowing that Lyndon Johnson was a lunatic as well as a completely depraved man who was in a decades-long political alliance with Zionist Jews since the 1930s because it served his political interests. LBJ's mother and his Aunt Jesse Hatcher were ardent Zionist Christians and I have seen a letter written in the late 1950s from LBJ's mother to him in which she says "Take care of the Jews, they are God's chosen people."

The attack on the USS Liberty was intentional and it was thought of and orchestrated by Lyndon Johnson. It was designed to be blamed on Egypt in order to give LBJ (the USA) a pretext to bomb and remove Nasser of Egypt from power. Nasser over the previously 10 years had drifted into the Soviet camp.

Israel under ultra Zionist pal LBJ became a client state of the USA.

 

Robert,

     Have you read Lisa Pease's classic-- A Lie Too Big To Fail?

     IMO, no one can really understand what happened to RFK at the Ambassador Hotel without studying Pease's book.

     We all know the mainstream media mythology, but the true story is far more complicated.

     Sirhan didn't kill RFK.  As Noguchi said, all along, the fatal bullet was fired at point-blank range behind RFK's ear.

On 2/20/2022 at 6:41 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Well, I'll say it again, Ben.  Perhaps the third time will be the charm.  🤥

In Sirhan's case, all of the hypnotic programming was most likely completed before he ever went to the Ambassador Hotel to meet the person who was the stage assistant in the assassination op-- the Girl in the Polka Dot Dress.

Part of what you don't seem to understand is that people will act on post-hypnotic compulsions (like Sirhan climbing on the bars of his cell for Bernard Diamond) even when they are not in a trance state.  But they will have amnesia for the programming if amnesia was suggested under hypnosis.  Ergo, Sirhan was probably pre-programmed to go to the Ambassador Hotel where he would meet and socialize with an attractive woman in a polka dot dress.  He probably had total amnesia for his instructions.

She then activated a pre-programmed dissociated alter ego state, "range mode," with the aforementioned cues that Dr. Daniel Brown identified.

As for tracking the MK-ULTRA Manchurian candidate "technology," if you read John Marks' 1979 analysis in The Search For the Manchurian Candidate, the CIA records were destroyed and the "Manchurian candidate" paper trail at the CIA disappeared.  (Marks didn't even mention Dr. William Bryan, who had, allegedly, been involved in ARTICHOKE and MK-ULTRA.)  However, we know that the technique was feasible because of the Sirhan case, the Morse Allen, and the Bjorn Nielsen cases.

We also know (from Marks) that James Angleton was keenly interested in the use of hypnosis in espionage and counterintelligence. 

I'm curious about the James Earl Ray, Arthur Bremer, and John Hinckley cases, but I need to do some remedial reading.

Re-posting this material in reference to the renewed forum discussion about RFK's assassination and Sirhan's "Manchurian Candidacy."

15 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If Sirhan was a Manchurian Candidate, it raises interesting possibilities. 

What happened to LHO? 

Some have suggested the KGB had its hooks into LHO, such as James Woolsey, former CIA director.

So, could the KGB have done a Manchurian Candidate job on LHO? He got a refresher down in Mexico City? On some of his unexplained absences after? 

Can we dismiss the KGB doing a Manchurian Candidate job on LHO, but then embrace a CIA-cut-out Manchurian Candidate job on Sirhan? 

As I say, I am iffy on the Manchurian Candidate potential. In science you like to see many, many replicable experiments, to know a topic better. But, you never know. 

 

Ben,

   In his Hypnosis textbook, Estabrooks described his proposed WWII era methodology for hypnotically programming spies (and, e.g., false defectors) to engage in espionage -- for extended time periods--in alter states for which they would have total amnesia in their normal personality states.

   When I read Estabrooks description of this methodology, I wondered if Oswald could have been one of Estabrooks' false defector subjects-- programmed by his American (CIA) handlers to have a dissociated espionage alter.

36 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I think Bryan is the most likely suspect for hypnotizing Sirhan for multiple reasons including self-incrimination.  It's pretty well established really.  To put it bluntly, he told his regular ho's he hypnotized Sirhan among other evidence.

I think the most authoritative subject on this subject is Dr. Daniel Brown of Harvard Psychology for I think it was 38 years.  "There was nothing psychiatrically wrong with this guy", confirmed by three others.  At 12:30, K6, K12.  Well worth the full listen if you're looking for the truth.

 

Ron,

     It's odd, IMO, that the general public is not more aware of Dr. Daniel Brown's shocking observations about Sirhan's hypnotic "Manchurian" programming.

     It's also odd, IMO, that Dr. George Estabrooks' pioneering Hypnosis textbook is not in the Gryphon Library of Psychiatry & Behavioral Science Classics, and is, in fact, out-of-print.

     I wonder if the book was deliberately suppressed by the U.S. government because of the case studies about military and intelligence applications of hypnosis, including Manchurian Candidate programming.

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Bryan called in the night of the RFK murder to the Ray Briehm talk show in LA.

Briehm was a conservative, but he was not in any way a Rush Limbaugh clown.

Bryan said that night that the murder of Bobby Kennedy had all the earmarks of being the work of a Manchurian Candidate.

That is a truly remarkable statement for that early in the case.  Because no one could have possibly even suggested such a thing, unless it was the programmer.

But Bryan seemed to know what happened, and he likely knew about the key to the crime, the Dead Giveaway, which was the Girl in the Polka Dot dress. 

Then, Bill Turner sent a female undercover agent into his office under the guise of doing an article for a psychology magazine.  She started asking him questions about being able to program a person to do something he would never do in a waking state.  She said she had read that you can.  This sent Bryan into a rage, he started shouting and walking around the room denying it could be done.  But she stood her ground.  Finally, he walked out and slammed the door of his own office.

If you take a look at Cesar, he is the person who is in the best position to deliver the shots to RFK.  Sirhan was always out of position.  The shots to RFK came in from the rear, at upward angles, and at close range. The fatal shot to the skull was 1-3 inches away since it showed signs of tattoing on the head.  Noguchi was very careful to do experiments which would show where this effect would show up at. Cesar was so close he ended up with powder burns in his eyes. He then BS'd about not having a gun that would be a close match to what Sirhan did.  And the LAPD covered up his true feelings about the Kennedys. Finally, he was also deceptive about when he went to work for that private security company.

As RFK fell, he reportedly grabbed for Cesar's necktie.

This was a very sophisticated intel operation by a group that had studied operations like this for years.  It deceived tens of millions for a long time. Its why Helms got rid of thousands of pages on MK Ultra.

Dr. George Estabrooks -- a consultant to the U.S. War Department in the 1940s-- clearly believed that a person could be hypnotically programmed to commit a murder.

Estabrooks even demonstrated this with a patient-- using an unloaded gun-- as described in his mysteriously out-of-print Hypnosis textbook.  (I read his book on SCRIB-D and started a thread here on the subject.)

Dr. Martin Orne, who consulted with the CIA during his career, publicly denied that Manchurian Candidate  programming was possible.  But his predecessor, Estabrooks, clearly disagreed.

I met Dr. Orne at the Colorado State Hospital in 1987 but, at the time, I had not studied Sirhan's case, (or Estabrooks case studies) and I missed an opportunity to ask Orne about it.

2 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

RFK Jr's. exploitation of his family legacy without living up to its ideals is possibly more obnoxious than the other Jr's. simpering gibberish about "the Constitution" – which his father plans on dismantling – and Democracy – with an upper and lower case D – which obviously sticks in Don's craw.


RFK Jr. argued the Democrats are trying to win 2024 through the court system during 'Jesse Watters Primetime'

NO, Bobby, Democrats are committed to the rule of law that no man is above it,  a concept your own father committed himself to and that likely contributed to his demise.  Don't play this divisive card and then campaign on unity of purpose and preservation of our democracy. We remain vigilant even if you can't.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/rfk-jr-warns-trump-conviction-backfire-democrats-bad-our-democracy

Say it isn't so, Bobby.  

I heard a Trumpster at Trump Tower declare that, "Even lefties like Bobby Kennedy admit that Trump's trial was rigged."  The guy must have heard Bobby's latest bs on Faux News.

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Roger Stone's welcome under the JFKA tent – with open arms by far too many gullible researchers  – was the harbinger that the community was being infiltrated by those who have no idea what Kennedy represented to the experiment in democracy. Comparing JFK to DJT is insulting to those of us who came of age in the 1960s.

Following Trump's defeat in 2020, along comes Tucker Carlson to serve as poster-boy to exploit "free the JFK records" when in fact for the previous thirty years of his career he failed to use his bully pit to advance assassination research. Little if any mention – other than the spin on his "inside source" – that Trump failed his responsibility and refused to release the remaining files.  Why is that? Oh, I remember, he was scared.
 

Here, in the first three minutes, Carlson and Don Jr. compare Trump's indictments with the assassination of Pres. Kennedy, even alluding to the boiler plate language on the authorization for the Mar-a-Lago search.  If the end game of Dallas, November 22, 1963, was to erode faith in our government, our institutions, and the judicial system toward eventual installation (under minority rule) of the first in a decades-long succession of authoritarians in the White House, then leading members of this "community" that refuse to call out the Goebbels-style propaganda of Carlson et al,  will go down in history as having been complicit.

It's time to collectively reject this egregiously distorted comparison between JFK and Trump and sound the alarm that, if elected in 2024, Trump will be the culmination of the coup in Dallas.

https://www.wnd.com/2024/05/watch-tucker-carlson-listen-trump-jr/

Locking Trump up would only increase his popularity in the MAGA cult.  He'd be hailed as the MAGA Mandela!

But imagine Trump having to actually provide some useful community service for the first time in his life!

They could sentence him to cleaning MAGA graffiti off of the New York subways... 😂

Trump could get community service sentence after guilty verdict: experts (nypost.com)

You’d be hard-pressed to find a phrase as ahistorical and condescending as this one. Americans, for example, can and do “live with” the impact of Confederates, whether or not those Confederates are memorialized in statue form. Contrary to Kennedy’s claim, the issue isn’t that these Confederates “didn’t agree with us on everything,” the problem is that their most fervent belief — that Black people were subhuman and deserving of chattel slavery — is incompatible with civil society.

The idea that their behavior is only “now” regarded as immoral ignores the fact that it was immoral and wrong even then and many enslaved people denounced their bondage as they were experiencing it. And it’s highly offensive for anyone, let alone a wealthy, white Kennedy heir, to suggest that carrying this warped view of history amounts to “sophistication.” 

Kennedy’s veneration for Confederates is detached from reality. That comes as no surprise, considering he's widely known as a conspiracy theorist. But the fact that this veneration fits a trend of him publicly defending violent anti-government forces should concern any voters invested in democracy. 

Roger,

     If you had paid any attention to the facts some of us have been posting for the past several months about RFK, Jr.'s third party candidacy, you wouldn't be so clueless about the subject.  Do some remedial reading of the (non-Ben Cole) RFK, Jr. threads on this Political Discussion board-- with detailed commentaries by progressive intellectuals like Naomi Klein, Robert Reich, Russ Baker, and Edward Curtin.

     Do you really not know that right-wing Republican billionaire, (and Trumpster) Timothy Mellon, has been the major bankroller of RFK, Jr.'s campaign?

     As for your persistent whining about the Education Forum moderators, tell us what new material Ben Cole cut-and-pasted about the RFK assassination at the top of this thread-- other than his misleading photo and trope about "RFK, Jr. finishing what his father started."

     Did you read former RFK staffer Robert Reich wrote about this subject (above?)

     If RFK, Jr. was truly promoting the progressive Democratic legacy of his illustrious father and uncles, he would end his destructive third-party candidacy today and support Joe Biden and the Democrat Party's historic struggle against the crooked Trump/Koch/GOP/Federalist Society plutocracy.

P.S.  Please post any additional whining about the moderators on the Moderator Complaints board.

2 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

When Bobby showed up for his interview on the set for JFK Revisited, we went through the list of questions I had drawn up for him.

At the end, I tapped Oliver on the shoulder, and I gave him an unlisted question that I just thought up:

"Ask him if he thinks the assassination of his father is related to the assassination of his uncle."

That elicited the most compelling reply of any of the 54 hours of interviews we did.

Towards the end, he said there are definitely leads in both cases that would seem to connect, and my father's murder was, in reality, never really investigated at all. So yes, i think there are connections that have not been explored. 

The most obvious giveaways for CAI involvement in the RFK case are  1.) Thane Cesar, the actual killer, once worked for Hughes corporation, and as Peter Scott once said, its difficult to find where the CIA ends and Hughes begins, 2.) its pretty clear that Bryan was the programmer of Sirhan. And he has all the earmarks of an agent all around him.

I'm reminded of the Cuban pilot allegedly telling Wayne January at Redbird Airport on November 22, 1963 that "no Kennedy" would ever occupy the White House.

As for Dr. William Joseph Bryan-- the MK-Ultra hypnotist-- two Beverly Hills call girls alleged that he had bragged about hypnotizing Sirhan.

William Joseph Bryan: Sirhan’s Handler and Set-Up Maestro Extraordinaire | Winter Watch

And now the MAGA cult members are flying upside-down Alito flags-- denouncing the rule of law and trial by jury.

Trump supporters turn US flags upside down to protest guilty verdict (msn.com)

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

Your explanation for removing the thread is decidedly unsatisfactory, Ron.  I hope you and the mods will reconsider.

Talbott's article is about Junior's recognition that Sirhan did not kill his father.  That recognition was a compelling factor in one of Junior's themes from the beginning of his campaign:  his desire to reopen both cases if he makes it to the presidency. He believes, as I do, that the top echelon of JFK's own government was responsible for both murders.  Isn't that the sort of thing we should be talking about here? 

 

Yes, here on the Political Discussion forum.

It's a discussion about RFK, Jr.'s 2024 right-wing-funded stalking horse campaign to re-elect America's worst POTUS-- Donald Trump-- correct?

RFK, Jr.'s own New York campaign manager recently admitted that the purpose of RFK, Jr.'s 2024 candidacy is to help re-elect Donald Trump.

That's also why the felonious MAGA brain trust-- Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, Rupert Murdoch, et.al.-- have been promoting RFK, Jr.  

So, these 2024 political discussions do, in fact, belong on the Political Discussion board.

The mods are correct.

17 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

 

Never forget- MAGA is a domestic terrorist group.

 

"On social media and web forums, users called for jurors, judges and prosecutors to be killed after the former president was found guilty on 34 felony counts."

 

 

This is deeply concerning stuff, IMO.

Trump has already incited mass murder in the U.S.-- e.g., the El Paso Walmart Massacre.

15 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

A favorite tactic of yours, w., is to claim there is nothing new in a thread that displeases you and which you want removed from the forum.  Such mastery of all topics far and wide you must have to be such an authority!  Such encyclopedic knowledge about what everyone who comes here already knows (so you can protect then from the scourge of redundancy) is staggering!

The fact that both Kennedys were killed by the same forces--Sirhan did not kill RFK--as discussed by Talbott, a far more astute student of the murders than you, is nothing new?   Have both murders been solved?  Is Talbott not worth reading?  How do you account for the fact there is several posts in this very thread that claim Sirhan did kill RFK, and so explore his "motives"?  Is that not worth rebutting, as I tried to do.  Only to be removed.

Your usual attempt to claim that the thread is really about bashing Biden does not obscure what is actually discussed.

How dare you say to me  "if you're really interested in the subject (the murders)" as if you doubt that. And then condescendingly tell me what to read before I should be allowed to comment further!

Finally, Ben is not MAGA, as he has repeatedly told you.  The fact that the mods have not told you to stop only reflects badly on them. 

 

 

Get a clue, Roger.

We've studied and discussed RFK's assassination in great detail in the past-- especially in relation to Lisa Pease's definitive book on the subject, and, beyond that, through the exploration of Sirhan's Manchurian Candidacy-- on my George Estabrooks thread.

As for your delusional notion that Ben Cole is not a closet Trumpster, go to the 56 years thread and read Ben's stubbornly myopic denials of Trump's Russia-gate and January 6th scandals.   

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

I think you have that backwards, Ron.  If you are considering removing the thread from this forum and sending it to politics, it is incumbent upon you to explain why it it *not* relevant to the JFKA.  Why nothing discussed in this thread can help anyone understand anything about the JFKA.

 

There's nothing new here about the JFK and RFK assassinations, Roger.  We've discussed this historical material at length on the forum.

If you're genuinely interested in the subject, try studying the archival EF material about Lisa Pease's book, A Lie Too Big to Fail, or the George Estabrooks thread on Sirhan and the Manchurian Candidate literature.  Comment on those original threads if you're interested in the subject.

And ask yourself why MAGA Ben Cole is suddenly starting redundant threads about the RFK assassination, which include promotional comments about RFK, Jr.'s right-wing-funded stalking horse campaign to sabotage Joe Biden.  Why now?

Indeed, the MAGA stochastic terrorism risk is high in the U.S. right now.

Judge Merchan, in particular, will need high security-- along with prosecutors like Fani Willis and Bragg.

We will be witnessing the rage of a massive, delusional cult comprised of right-wing lunatics with AK-47s.

Rupert Murdoch, Trump, the Federalist Society, and the 21st century Koch-funded GOP have created a monster.

Meanwhile, prosecution of Trump's most serious felonies-- J6 and the classified documents theft-- has been stonewalled by blatantly corrupt Republican judges on the SCOTUS, and in Fort Pierce, Florida.

It's also pathetic to observe the corruption and dishonesty of Republicans in office pandering to the Felonious Skunk.

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

That's why this thread should go elsewhere.  Imho.  In the interest of transparency lets give it a day or so as to why not.

This thread is, basically, a veiled 2024 RFK, Jr. promotional ad grafted onto the bottom of old RFK assassination facts.

We all read and discussed A Lie to Big to Fail a few years ago.

It's a variation on Ben Cole's multiple threads that are prefaced with redundant accounts of the JFK Records suppression-- followed by RFK, Jr. promotional ads.

The forum has already discussed Lisa Pease's definitive, outstanding analysis of the RFK assassination in great detail-- including our old George Estabrooks thread about Sirhan's hypnotic programming as a Manchurian Candidate.

Nothing new here, other than the specious claim that RFK, Jr. will "finish what RFK started"-- presumably by helping right wing billionaires sabotage the Democratic Party.

Trump sings I Fought the Law and the Law Won...