Paul Jolliffe

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Dear S.T.:

thanks for contributing with your own experience of witnessing Judyth Baker's behaviour. I did not say in my last post which of the two alternatives I am inclined to prefer, and it would be the latter - Mrs. Baker truly believes in all what she says. Her experiences regarding Lee Oswald are erotic, conspiratorial, persecution-like, grandiose - is is a mixed type of beliefs. The belief of having a relationship with Lee Oswald along a personal and intelligence lines is the centre of her current life. It looks to be fitting a different pattern than Asperger syndrome, however, it is not appropriate for me to speculate.

I have had a few encounters with Judyth Baker in late 2014 when I resumed my interest in JFK assassination, first slowly, then more. Actually, my first encounter was with Mr Ralph Cinque who even invited me to join their small community believing that Lovelady in Altgens6 was Lee Oswald. This lasted about 10 weeks until I found out that that story was false. I then was a member of a Facebook page (maybe I am still a member but not contributing for years)  promoting Lee Oswald's innocence (a similar page title to that of Mr Cinque's page) and I was able to read and even comment  a few times. I remember defending her from very nasty, personal and brutal attack by A.J. Weberman. Whatever anyone claims, s/he should not be exposed to the vulgarities presented by Mr Weberman. However, I then started to ask Mrs Baker a few questions and it started to change very rapidly. The point when I withdrew was when she claimed that Lee Oswald did not took any photograph of them in New Orleans because Lee was told by the CIA not to take any photographs at all, not even of his own family. That was not true, there are  a few pictures from their New Orleans period.

Mrs Baker is unusually well read in the JFK assassination case, one of the best experts in the field. I read somewhere she took classes in creative writing in the 90th and that might have been a part of how she moved in her life. Forrest Gump was released in 1994 which would coincide with the beginnings of Mrs Baker's story. In my view, it is possible to elaborate such fiction story with enough time and effort invested. There are parts in Mrs Baker's story which can be neither proved nor disproved and here she is on a safe ground. It is maybe 90% of data in the book. Can anyone prove or disprove that she was in a pub with Lee about at end May and Lee was in a gloomy mood feeling bad things may happen to Kennedy? However, Mrs Baker made a big mistake in an area she trusted herself the most - the cancer research. Here she told too much and in too many details and that part of her story can be easily disproved.

Whatever Mrs Baker claims, I hope the community can approach her with understanding and if the understanding is sound then even with sympathy. She is a person of great mind which has driven her astray. It can happen.

 

 

 

 

 

I, too, remember reading (somewhere) that JVB's "story" did not begin to emerge until after she took classes in creative writing. You and I probably read the same source. If true (note that I said "if"), then her credibility really takes a hit. Was she going through any personal trauma at the time? (A divorce, perhaps? Something else?) Were these classes a form of restorative therapy that then, with the development (creation?) of the "Me and Lee" story, took on a life of its own?

I must be frank: I don't believe the basics of her story. Our "Oswald", the man with whom JVB allegedly had an affair, was not an assassin, so any claim that he was an important part of a plot to kill Castro is ridiculous.

Further, there is no evidence that our "Oswald" knew anything about cancer research or much about science generally. His conversations with people were about politics, government, communism, Marxism, and sociology.

In 2013, Marina put up two of "Oswald's" personal books for sale on a public auction. One was a copy of the Communist Manifesto from the 1930's, the other a collection of cartoons from a noted communist Hungarian Jew, Tibor Kajan, a man nominated several times for Hungary's Kossuth Prize. Not a science book in sight.

https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/social-sciences/-john-f-kennedy-lee-harvey-oswald-s-personal-books/a/6106-38424.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

Gentlemen,

Do we have any evidence that either Fred Blair and his wife (presumably Mary, but possibly Elizabeth A. Smith) were living in NYC in the 1940's? We know from the article in the Milwaukee Journal that Fred "disappeared" between 1951 and 1955, and therefore could have lived in NYC. However, Emil Gardos and his wife had already been deported by then, so that rules out the 1950's.

Perhaps Fred and Mary stayed for some time with Emil and Grace in Yorkville around 1945 - 46? Is there any record of that? John B's typed Commie card from yesterday had the information that Fred was "busted" from the Communist Party in Wisconsin in 1949, but nothing about NYC. 

Is there any evidence for Fred and his wife in NYC in the 1940's?

David,

Here's what John Kowalski wrote on Tuesday at 12:50 about his interview with JCG's son:

Paul:

When I was researching my Osborne story who alias was John Howard Bowen, I did some research on career criminal John Caesar Grossi who worked with Oswald at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. Was interested in Grossi because one of his many aliases was John Bowen. Ordered a copy of his prison record from Leavenworth prison where he was doing time for auto theft. James Earl Ray did time at Leavenworth in the 1950s but am not sure if they were there at the same time and knew each other. His prison record indicated that he mailed a check to F. Ryder at 305 E Cason St. Irving Texas. The 1954 Irving City Directory shows that Homer Ryder lives at that address, and the the 1940 US census states that Homer had a daughter named Fleta and son named Dial.  Looks like there is a connection between the bogus rifle work and Oswald's friend at JCS.

I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens.

3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Paul...  in his section in the HSCA he has FBI reports regarding his ongoing criminal activity thru 1975... 

what gives you the impression he "worked" for the FBI - I either missed it or didn't follow.... thx

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1239&sort=date&page=2  

	193.	NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: EVID, LTR, FPT, HWD, JCGR, INTV, MITCHELL, ROBERT LEE RIF#: 124-10208-10297   (01/30/75)   FBI#: 88-61118-26
	194.	NO TITLE, SUBJECTS: JCGR, FUG, APPREHENDED, BURBANK, CA RIF#: 124-10208-10298   (04/12/75)   FBI#: 88-61118-27

David, 

I should have been more precise: I suspect he was used by the FBI as a source. The JCS thing is so suspicious - Grossi's son told John Kowalski (quoted earlier) that JCG got his job at JCS  in 1963 because of his longstanding connection (since he was a teenager!) with someone who had the clout to put him at a national security related firm, right alongside our "Oswald"! 

That is NOT a coincidence! 

It's gotta be the FBI!

John, 

I agree that one of those two theories is most likely. At the moment, I am not sure which way I am leaning. Either could work.

You mentioned earlier some confusion about the "Elizabeth A. Smith" who, according to the LifeStory site was Fred Blair's wife. 

Well, she may have been his wife at some point, but I'll bet they divorced - her gravestone makes no mention of him or any other husband, she seems to have been buried in the Smith family plot of the Forest Home Cemetery in Milwaukee in 1961, so I don't think Fred meant much to her by then.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/84911794/elizabeth-a_-smith

Here's a weird one for you: President Kennedy's first Treasurer of the United States was named . . . Elizabeth Smith.

https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/JFKWHP/1961/Month 01/Day 30/JFKWHP-1961-01-30-B

7 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

FWIW   https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137447#relPageId=2&tab=page 

 

JOHN CAESAR GROSSI  (heavily redacted)

 

Thanks for posting that, David. This report from 1944 (Grossi was only 17 years old at the time!) further heightens my strong suspicion that John Caesar Grossi was used by/in contact with the FBI in some capacity for decades to come.  Grossi's son told John K. in an interview that his father got the job in 1963 at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall (right alongside our "Oswald") as the result of a friendship with a mysterious benefactor he had known since he was a teenager. That anonymous do-gooder with that kind of clout could only be the FBI.

And why would the FBI put Grossi at JCS in early 1963?

To keep an eye on our recent defector from the USSR, a man on whom the FBI had officially closed the book in 1962. None of us really believe that Hoover's FBI  in 1962 would have taken no further interest in an apparent Marxist/Commie/defector/traitor with a shady Russian wife. John Fain may have really retired in 1962, but I am certain the FBI kept tabs on our "Oswald" continuously. 

And Grossi was their eyes and ears at JCS before Hosty "officially" re-opened the case in 1963. 

What do you think?

On 12/11/2019 at 10:07 PM, Vince Palamara said:

Now for the BRIEF answer LOL: I believe it was Floyd Boring, working in concert with Lawson, Sorrels and Grant. See my first book (also my third and fourth books).

Fair enough, Vince. I shall put your books on my Christmas list.

On a slightly different note:

You've probably addressed this at length elsewhere, but what do you make of the fact that the Warren Commission never discussed/subpoenaed/asked for/published transcripts of anything said during 11/22/63 from the secure White House Communications Agency? Winston Lawson was literally holding one of their two-way devices and speaking with them at the very moment shots were fired! Lawson had quietly installed this very device the morning of 11/22/63 and was in constant contact with the Secret Service agents in the motorcade, yet we have no record of what was actually said! 

I believe this was deliberate on the part of the Warren Commission. What do you think?

Do you think Lawson was in contact with conspirators at the WHCA in Mt. Weather, Virginia and/or military officials at Raven Rock during the assassination, coordinating the non-flanking motorcycle escorts and following the previously cleared path to Parkland?

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Almost everything in checking on Gardos, schools, and other folks such as the Fuhrmans are somewhere between .04 mile to .07 mile.  Here is the distance from the Gardos to the Pics.

This is to much of a coincidence to not be interesting.  I have no evidence linking the Gardos and the Pics.  But, if one reads the WC testimony of John Pic in relation to his wife and his wife's parents, he becomes a suspicious character.  I am not the only one thinking this.  Others have made comment on the vagueness of his testimony regarding the Fuhrmans.

If I could connect Gardos and Pics by something other than location, my favorite suspect for the mysterious caller would be Mary Fuhrman.  I don't have a firm handle on why I suspect Mary Fuhrman since I have no direct evidence for it.  There is the loosest of connections such as Mary goes south to VA to stay with her daughter Emma when Marguerite and Lee (and which Lee and Marguerite is that) come to NYC to stay with John Pic and Margaret.  John Pic monitoring Margaret's testimony is also suspicious.

John,

I agree that mother Mary Fuhrman's timely visit to Virginia in the fall of 1952 is mighty convenient.

Did you know that Yorkville's 86th Street was the hub of the post WWII refugee/immigrant population in NYC? I did not.

But consider this passage from http://www.yorkville-kleindeutschlandhistoricalsociety.com/history.html :

26 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Well, nothing interesting turned up in a search of records for the John Blair and Mary Blair's family.  Fred Blair, on the other hand, was ousted, if I am reading this right, from the Communist Party in Wisconsin.

The only other thing of interest for Fred is that his wife was named Naomi.  That is the same name as his sister, Naomi.

Fred goes underground at about the time of the Red Scare.  He may have done that and gone to New York to live at the address mentioned in the Tippit Call.  There's no proof of that.  It's just speculation.  Most of the time he is in Wisconsin.  His wife does not make a good candidate for the mysterious caller.  I don't believe she would have travelled from Milwaukee to New Haven.

Margaret Pic, John Pic's wife, doesn't make a good candidate either.  In 1964, I think she was in Texas with John Pic. 

Because of being ousted from the Communist Party, would Fred turn against them.

 

John,

I don't think we can conclude from the above cryptic phrase "Busted from Communist Party in Wisconsin for ineffective leadership on Negro rights."  that Fred Basset Blair was not a genuine communist. I believe he  really was a communist - after all, he and his wife successfully sued the FBI (winning $48,000) for surveillance and harassment in the early 1960's. Good work finding that card, but it certainly appears to me that Blair and his wife were the real deal. He was almost shot to death in November of 1966 by a 17 year old who "wanted to kill a communist." 

J. Edgar Hoover had specifically named Mary's Books as "one of the eight major communist bookstores operating in the United States at this time." (Spring of 1965.)

Finally, the Milwaukee Journal article says that Fred and Mary disappeared in the early 1950's, not the 1960's.

The mysterious woman caller (with an apparent German accent) seemingly could not remember Fred Blair's name, yet she knew the name "Emile Kardos" (as misspelled by the FBI.) Therefore, I'd bet she was not a relative of Fred or his wife. 

So who was the mysterious woman caller?

Well, we know she was wrong in her belief that her suspects were operating with young "Oswald" in the 1950's - Emil Gardos (accompanied by Grace) had accepted "voluntary" deportation by then. The woman was probably thinking of some connection from the mid 1940's.

On 12/11/2019 at 10:28 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

That’s interesting, John.  I’m sure the consensus among researchers is that the Bronx Zoo picture is of Lee Harvey Oswald, or at least one of them, but I value your opinion in these matters. Unfortunately, I’m terrible with faces.

The evidence suggests that Harvey Oswald DID spend a lot of time at the Bronx Zoo when he lived just three blocks from it at 825 E. 179th St.  In 1953, truant officer Victor Connell apprehended Harvey in the Bronx Zoo and returned him to school.  Robert Oswald volunteered while testifying to the WC that he took the picture of his “brother” at the zoo, prompting a reprimand from Jenner to just answer the questions.  John Pic said he didn’t recognize the photo of the kid in the Bronx Zoo photo, supposedly his own half-brother.

Of course, there should be no reason for Mr. Pic to recognize Harvey; they weren’t related.  I’ve thought for two decades that it was Harvey Oswald in the Bronx Zoo photo, but considering how much of the evidence in this case has been compromised, I wouldn’t bet the farm on it, though I'm still inclined to believe it's Harvey.

Jim,

I agree that it is probably Harvey, but I wonder if the CIA played around with the picture after John Pic testified that he could not recognize his "brother." Could the CIA have substituted an "improved" version of a Harvey photo into the WC exhibits to baffle anyone wondering about Pic's hesitancy?

18 hours ago, Vince Palamara said:

The shift leader in Dallas and commander of the other 7 agents in the follow-up car, Emory Roberts, conveyed Floyd Boring’s “wish” and ordered away two agents at Love Field, Henry Rybka and Don Lawton, from the limousine, ordered the agents not to move during the shooting itself (see my appearance on A COUP IN CAMELOT: audio from agent Sam Kinney, a couple feet away from Roberts), and usurped Kellerman’s authority at Parkland Hospital, telling his boss to stay with Kennedy while he went to Johnson. Roberts also was responsible for LBJ taking over Air Force One. Roberts is one of my three suspects- he became too close to Johnson after the assassination and died young in 1973 without speaking to anyone except William Manchester. Interestingly, Roberts shift of agents were the worst offenders by far in the drinking incident of early 11/22/63 in which 9 agents drank alcohol:

The day after the infamous umbrella man appeared during the assassination, Roberts became an umbrella man of his own as he shields LBJ. What appears to be a look of disgust on fellow Dallas motorcade agent Jerry Kivett can be seen in the photo:

 

Please see:

https://vincepalamara.com/2018/07/01/the-infrastructure-of-the-secret-service-on-11-22-63-and-the-ramifications-involved/

https://vincepalamara.com/2018/07/04/my-greatest-posts-and-videos-the-jfk-secret-service-in-detail/

 

Vince,

In a nutshell, do you believe that Lawson was the impetus for the motorcade route to make its detour in front of the TSBD? Or, was he merely a conveyor of a decision reached elsewhere? Who precisely, in your view, is ultimately responsible for the fatal motorcade route in Dealey Plaza?

On 12/8/2019 at 1:02 PM, James DiEugenio said:

I have always thought that Lawson and Sorrels should have been thoroughly  investigated and professionally cross examined.

 

Well yes, Jim. 

If Lawson himself was not the impetus for the final motorcade route, at the very least he knew from where the pressure came to bring about the Elm Street detour. 

John K. said:

"I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens."

I've got a really good hunch as to who this mysterious benefactor/well-wisher/do-gooder might be. 

But first . . .

Here's what we know:

1. John Caesar Grossi was 28 in 1955, therefore he was a teenager in the mid-1940's. 

2. JCG was arrested in 1946 on a charge of impersonation when he was about 19 years old.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137338#relPageId=2&tab=page

3. JCG's files for 1944 (17 years old!) have a total of 47 pages that are "RESTRICTED IN FULL" pursuant to the JFK Records Act!!!!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137349#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137348#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137347#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137346#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137345#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137344#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137343#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137342#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137341#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137340#relPageId=2&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137339#relPageId=2&tab=page

Because these are restricted files, I can't tell if any of them are duplicates. Even so, this guy has FBI files that are off limits from the mid 1960's, at least.

Why? Did the FBI recruit him as an informant, a source, a "PCI", a contact, or whatever the hell they call their guys? Why are they still hidden?

It is still mighty curious that Grossi was of such intense interest that his unknown benefactor from the WWII era had such clout that he could get him a job in a national security sensitive firm in 1963, right alongside our man "Oswald"! 

In any event, it's funny how over the years the same names keep popping up in this case . . .

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=137321#relPageId=3&tab=page

20 minutes ago, John Butler said:

At this time we can say there is no evidence that Grace A. Blair Gardos, wife of Emil Gardos, and mother of John Gardos had any other children.  At this point in time there is no evidence for children other than John Gardos.  The following evidence bears on this point.

and, the second page

 

My first thoughts on this FBI document is this puts to rest the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection speculation.  I will put this out on the forum tomorrow and that will be the end of the matter.  This information has been out there for a while, but I don't think any one realized its significance.

But, the ugly gods of controversy and uncertainty raised their ugly heads.  Although very suggestive, it is not conclusive proof that would put an end to John Gardos as Harvey Oswald notion.  Grace may have had other children.  She may have had other sons.  How likely is that there would be a single child in a long term marriage in the days before good birth control.  On the other hand Grace may have had a medical condition that precluded having other children.  This is part of the uncertainty.  I am sure others can think of other things.

This document, as another Emil / Grace document, was marked as Top Secret and marked to avoid downgrading and declassification.  Why would this be such a big secret matter to the FBI?

The first page indicates that Emil is retired and living on a pension in Budapest.  In 1966 Emil would be 65 years old.  Perhaps, his retirement pension was from Social Security earned in the US, or it could be something different.  A pension from the newspaper The Worker?  A pension from the US government for being a long term FBI informant?  A pension from the Communist authorities in Hungary for being a good life long communist? 

Obviously, this desire on the part of Grace Gardos fell through.  She died in Hungary in November, 1981.  Her last known residence was the American Consulate in Budapest. 

That's a bit strange for a good life long commie.  Or, was she?  There is to much uncertainty at this time.

The Fred Blair papers at the University of Wisconsin, Madison may shed light on her family and its members.  For various reasons, age and health, being primary I can't make the trip to Madison, WI.  If this information had come to light a year of two ago this wouldn't be a big deal. 

 

John,

I agree that while this document does not absolutely rule out little John Gardos growing up to become our "Oswald" (Harvey), it makes it very, very unlikely.

Which happens to be something that I have long suspected - that our "Oswald" was NOT the biological son of Emil and Grace Gardos, BUT somehow, however briefly, he was indeed connected to/associated with them in NYC at some point, probably between 1945 and 1946. (John Armstrong has argued, persuasively in my view, that our "Oswald" was living with a "Marguerite" by the fall of 1947, attending Benbrook Elementary in Ft. Worth, while Lee attended Lily Clayton Elementary.)

There is something here about these people, but the connection to our "Oswald" may not necessarily be biological.

9 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Paul:

When I was researching my Osborne story who alias was John Howard Bowen, I did some research on career criminal John Caesar Grossi who worked with Oswald at Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval. Was interested in Grossi because one of his many aliases was John Bowen. Ordered a copy of his prison record from Leavenworth prison where he was doing time for auto theft. James Earl Ray did time at Leavenworth in the 1950s but am not sure if they were there at the same time and knew each other. His prison record indicated that he mailed a check to F. Ryder at 305 E Cason St. Irving Texas. The 1954 Irving City Directory shows that Homer Ryder lives at that address, and the the 1940 US census states that Homer had a daughter named Fleta and son named Dial.  Looks like there is a connection between the bogus rifle work and Oswald's friend at JCS.

I tracked down Grossi's son, John Bowen and interviewed him. He continues to use the Bowen name even though he knows his father's name was an alias. He did not have much contact with his father as he lived in Canada while Grossi remained in the US. One thing he did tell me was that Grossi, who was also a talented commercial artist, got the job at JCS through someone, whose name he does not know, who had tried to help Grossi abandon his criminal ways in his teens.

1940 United States Federal Census

 

Name:	Homer R Ryder
Respondent:	Yes
Age:	43
Estimated Birth Year:	abt 1897
Gender:	Male
Race:	White
Birthplace:	Illinois
Marital Status:	Married
Relation to Head of House:	Head
Home in 1940:	German, Richland, Illinois
Street:	Claumont RFD 1
Farm:	Yes
Inferred Residence in 1935:	Rural, Richland, Illinois
Residence in 1935:	Rural Richland Illinois
Resident on farm in 1935:	Yes
Sheet Number:	8B
Number of Household in Order of Visitation:	152
Occupation:	Laborer
House Owned or Rented:	Rented
Value of Home or Monthly Rental if Rented:	5
Attended School or College:	No
Highest Grade Completed:	College, 1st year
Hours Worked Week Prior to Census:	40
Class of Worker:	Wage or salary worker in private work
Weeks Worked in 1939:	16
Income:	370
Household Members:	Name   Age   Homer R Ryder 43 Magdalena Ryder 38 Fleta Ryder 16 Issa Phene Ryder 13 Marcella Ryder 10 Mardella Ryder 5 Fern Ryder 3 Dial Ryder 2

 

Great work, John.

Hmm.

So John Caesar Grossi, alias "John Bowen" (the same alias used by Albert Osborne in 1963! ) seemingly knew 31-year old Fleta Ryder - who apparently still lived in her parents' home - well enough to send her a check for $47 when he got out of prison the week before Christmas in December of 1955. This woman had a younger brother, Dial, who found the work order for a rifle in the name of "Oswald" at the Irving Sports Shop a few days after the assassination. 

The question is, who dropped off a rifle in the name of "Oswald" to be bore-sighted and "tapped" in the first week or two of November? 

(Undoubtedly the same man who visited the Furniture Mart in search of a gunsmith. Whitworth and Hunter referred him to the Irving Sports Shop.)

The Warren Commission never showed the Mannlicher-Carcano to Dial Ryder, nor did they dare ask him the simple question: "Did you work on this rifle?"

Why not?

Because they suspected/knew he'd deny it, and then they would have to address an obvious conspiracy to frame "Oswald", which of course they wanted to hide.

John K., is there any chance you could dig up a picture of John Caesar Grossi from the 1950's or 1960's? 

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sorry to be so slow responding, Paul.

Even when he was meeting with her in the 1990s, John A. has told me that he couldn’t help but notice that Marina was still a very attractive woman.  And I agree with you entirely about her credibility on many matters, although its impossible not to feel sympathy for her plight after 11/22/63.

Still, I respectfully disagree that it was likely she knew the other LHO.  As indicated earlier, despite the Furniture Mart interviews, I don’t think the two women would have necessarily seen through a sophisticated and deliberate impersonation.  One of the women did say Marina didn't appear as attractive at the store as she did later.

More significantly, my bet is that at least some of people who ran and/or knew about the Oswald Project and the false defection of 1959 were the same people who set up “Oswald” as the patsy for the Kennedy assassination.  There was only a relatively short time between Marina’s arrival in the U.S. with her husband and the time when the assassination plans were clearly in the works.

These plotters, like us, surely thought of the possibility that Marina was a Soviet intel asset of some sort.  From purely a sources and methods perspective, wouldn’t these handlers want to keep Marina completely unaware of the other half of the project?  Same thing for the assassination, which even people who don’t believe H&L mostly concede included an obvious and continuing “Oswald” impersonation.

If you’re plotting another false defection in 1963, or plotting to set up a patsy for the hit, or both, would you want Marina to know your secret?  The plotters had to know that Marina would be placed under a legal microscope following the patsification of her husband.  Would you not make every effort to keep her unaware of the other LHO?
 

Jim,

You and I agree that whatever Marina thought she knew about "Oswald", she sure did not know about an assassination plot against JFK. We agree that the plotters would have kept her out of the loop for that. I agree that the plotters either knew or suspected that Marina was NOT an ordinary Soviet girl, marrying an American on a lark. No, she was almost certainly a Soviet intelligence asset (undoubtedly a dangle or "honeytrap", used by the Soviets to tease out further information from men - in this case, "Oswald" -  susceptible to the wiles and charms of attractive young women.) Any reasonable observer would conclude exactly that.

I think it boils down to just how loyal was Marina to a murdered "Oswald" - once he was dead, was there any advantage to her at all in spilling whatever tidbits she might know about this other LHO? After all, if the Furniture Mart impersonation was a one-time thing, and it may well have been, then Marina may have met Lee only once. Remember, she - a terrified young widow with two tiny daughters - was threatened with deportation at her very first interview! She had nowhere to go . . . unless she told the authorities exactly what they wanted to hear. 

But after re-reading the combined testimony of Marina, Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth, I am afraid that you and I are going to have to disagree. I don't believe there is any way to attribute the very specific details in that lengthy encounter (not to mention the previous occasions on which Hunter saw and conversed with Marina!) to a deception. Clearly more work is needed on this.

But for now, I would be very, very hesitant to rule out the possibility/probability that Marina did indeed have at least some knowledge of the other Oswald (Lee.)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m2.htm

Following up on 217 East 86th Street, kitty-corner from the Gardos residence was a movie theater (fromerly the 86th Street Casino Theater) that in the 1930's and '40's catered to the predominant German neighborhood by showing German movie premiers. It is likely that the Gardos family and/or  "Oswald" saw movies at this theater. This theater still in use until this past May (of 2019.) 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7784908,-73.9531238,3a,30y,264.95h,96.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNLBRbBrnumXfimXVV-mamA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/7469

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here are the two records I based that on.  I should have posted these at the time, but was to lazy to go through the photo posting procedure.

and,

These are neat.  They even have what appears to be phone numbers.

As far as when the Gardos communists moved to New York after living in Ironwood, MI is uncertain.  It would be sometime between 1940 and 1944.

John B.,

Good. That's exactly what I wanted to see.

OK it would appear from the address 217 E. 86th Street in NYC (which appears on Google Maps below to be largely unchanged since the 1940's), that there is an elementary school nearby with a very interesting history - The Ramaz School. 

From school's website:

" In the 1930's, the Upper East Side neighborhood known as Yorkville was an area where "Jewishness" was toned down; Jews of the area did not want to attract attention. In fact, in 1936, following the Depression and during the rise of Hitlerism, the pro-Nazi German-American Bund held street rallies up and down Third Avenue . . .

As darkness fell upon European Jewry, the light of European children began to fill the halls of the Ramaz School. Jews from France, Belgium, Germany and Holland were flocking to the United States. Their children came from the Lycées of France, the Tachkemoni of Antwerp and a myriad of other schools.

The refugee population especially concerned Rabbi Joseph H. Lookstein. It was apparent to him that if the Ramaz School did not exist, these children would have difficulty finding a suitable Jewish school. By 1938, in order to ensure adequate space for these students, the Ramaz School rented several rooms in the Central Jewish Institute building at 125 East 85th Street. Seventy-one boys and girls enrolled, creating the need to lease the entire building as the school's new quarters.

The Ramaz School was becoming widely recognized as an institution known for its academic excellence. The Teacher's Institute of Yeshiva University began sending student teachers to observe and fulfill their student-teaching requirements. In 1942, the school received its provisional charter from the Board of Regents of the State of New York. Enrollment by this time had risen to one hundred and twenty students."

John, we know from the testimony of Nelson Delgado that "Oswald" apparently knew at least some Yiddish! Whether or not "Oswald" was indeed the biological son of the Gardos parents, we are certain there must have been some connection between them, however brief. If there are any surviving elementary school records for either little John Gardos (or "Oswald"), the Ramaz School archives (if they exist) are a good place to start..

https://www.ramaz.org/page.cfm?p=512

Here is what 217 E. 86th Street looks like today - except for the street level storefronts, the building itself looks unchanged for decades:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7784686,-73.9530716,3a,75y,49.16h,104.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sET4Z9Mb_MJ4TVoPOVy1g6Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

I would like to repeat this information from an earlier post.  This repeated information ties directly into what time frame the mysterious lady caller in the Tippit call knew the Gardos communists.  Emil, Grace, and little John were known to the mysterious lady.  She may not of known Fred Blair's name or had forgotten it during the stress of the call so she repeated brother in law several times.  And, example of this might be not remembering the name of the actor, Robert Duval, and say something like you know that Lonesome Dove actor who liked to kick a pig.

"I have an idea.  See if John's good friend can find the school district for the address 217 East 86th Street.  Then check that school for John Gardos attendance.   HIs parents are Emil and Grace A. during the years 1945 and 1946.  John Gardos should be in the 1st and 2nd grade.  He should not be there for a 3rd and 4th grade years.  If he is then John Gardos is not likely to be Harvey Oswald.

Here's the reasoning for that.  I'm a retired school teacher.  The H & L record for Harvey Oswald at Benbrook school in 1947 was immediately suspicious to me and seemed to lack credibility.  Why?  John Gardos or Harvey Oswald's age in the fall of 1947 should be 8 years (or 7 years old and close to 8 years in the fall of 1947).  This is too old for a 1st grade student.  This implies that he was a truant for two years and probably would have been tracked down by a truant officer no matter what state he was in 1945-1946.

The admission of school age children into the 1st grade was pretty much standard across the US in the 1940s and 1950s.  Overall, it was mandatory and compulsory attendance at 6 years old for the first grade.  Generally, there was not a kindergarten or pre-school available.  Different states may vary a little on these procedures.  Kentucky has always adjusted the laws to match other states as much as possible.  In this period for a child to enter into the first grade they must have been 6 years old when school started or would be 6 years old before Jan, 1, of the following year.  This has been changed in more recents times to a closer (I've forgotten) date to the fall entry date.  I have argued this really doesn't matter since pre-school and Kindergarten is available  at an age earlier age then 6 years."

I repeated this information so that I wouldn't have to retype it.  I believe the time frame that the mysterious caller knew the Gardos was before 1949-1950.  The Gardos left for Hungary sometime in 1949-1950.  This is according to the Congressional Record that was published in 1950.  The Congressional Record reveals that Grace and Emil applied for a visa to visit Hungary in 1949.  There is no record in that Congressional Record about 10 year old John Gardos.  Anytime after that Emil and Grace would be out of the country.

So, the school records for John Gardos is critical for the years 1945-1949.  Grace is living at her residence at 217 East 86th Street, Yorkville, NY in 1944 and 1946.  If one can find school records for 1945 and 1946 that could say something about Harvey Oswald's school record in 1947 in Texas.  As I explain above Harvey Oswald should not have been 8 years old on entering the first grade at the Benbrook school.  He should have done the same as Lee entering the first grade in 1945. 

So, If one can find a school record for John Gardos in NY in 1947-1948 or anytime after that date it should put an end to the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection.  This has to be the son of Emil and Grace A. and living at 217 East 86th Street and the appropriate school for that address. 

John B,

Remind me: how do we know that Emil and Grace Gardos were living at 217 East 86th Street in the Yorkville neighborhood of NYC between 1944 and 1946?

Do we have any official address for them at any point before the 1950 Senate Report which cited their Yorkville address in 1949? If so, tell me again, what record/s tell us their address in the mid 1940's?

We know from the 1940 Census they were in Ironwood, Michigan in 1940, and we know from the 1950 Senate Report they were in Yorkville in 1949.  

What evidence for their addresses can we cite for the years in between?

The Gardos parents obviously moved from Michigan to NYC at some point in the 1940's.

Exactly when?

2 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Has anyone done any research on the Pitcairn family? Greg Parker claims that Marguerite Oswald worked for Pittsburgh Glass, which is one of their companies, and that they were fascists.

I can't tell you much about "Marguerite's" employment history. I can tell you that there are more than a few instances of "Oswald" expressing hatred, scorn, disdain, or indifference to his "mother." 

In the first complete sentence at the top of this page is an obvious one (from Mrs. Declan Ford, quoting Marina, quoting "Oswald"):

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=265

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

Marina was a nice looking young lady.  At that age that would personally sway my opinion of her.  However, a more realistic view is available with age. I believe Marina Oswald was a Soviet intelligence agent, a double agent and then a triple agent undergoing a reversal to Soviet allegiance once she was in the US.  That's nothing new.  A lot of people believe that.  I believe her mission was to seduce, marry, and then leave the Soviet Union with Ozzie.  The seduction occurred when Marina did not allow Ozzie his sexual intentions.  Therefore, he proposed as a rebound from an earlier failed proposal.  There was probably committee (there was a group of 20 KGB agents assigned to monitor Ozzie) work done on that decision of withholding sex.  Marina was sexually active with other foreigners before meeting Ozzie.  Nothing she said or did should be taken as gospel. 

I believe the timeline of events in Russian show that Marina showed up after Ozzie announces his intent to return to the US.  The video I posted on the atom bomb shows the true nature of a female Soviet intelligence agent.  Sex and marriage is just one more tool in their intelligence activities.

John,

Yes, I agree that Marina was almost certainly an asset of Soviet Intelligence, a dangle or "honeytrap" to entice foreign men into marriage and ultimately to relocate to another country. The fact that she met not only our "Oswald" but also Robert Webster is a huge red flag, a sure sign that she had some task, some mission to perform in relation to these American men. (Marina told Mrs. Declan Ford that Marina had "told her her husband went to Moscow, Russia, in 1959 where we had an exhibition, and worked for exhibition, then defected to the Russians at this time.")

But "Oswald" didn't defect in 1959 from an American exhibition - Webster did!

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406&relPageId=265

Our own Jim Hargrove noted a few years ago that Robert Webster told Dick Russell in 1997 that he had met Marina in the summer of 1959 and spoke with her in English!

Whatever her original Soviet mission might have been came to a crashing end on 11/22/63 - she no longer had any possible use to Soviet Intelligence as an undercover agent. Her cover was blown, she couldn't go home, she feared criminal charges, and as a (now) single mother of two small children she was terrified that something could happen to her babies. Understandably, she'd say anything to make the American authorities happy and to stay here. 

And so she did. 

Jim H.,

You and I both have tremendous respect for the amazing digging John A. has done on the issue of the two LHO's. But I do wonder if his belief that Marina knew nothing of a second Oswald has been shaped in large part because of his repeated personal contact with her - he believes her because he wants to believe her.

Yet, the evidence has been in plain sight for 55 years that Marina is and has been untruthful on crucial matters!

Her prime concern was ensuring that she would not be deported or face criminal charges herself (no matter how unfounded those charges would have been!) No, that was clear from the historical record - and readily apparent to even the junior WC lawyers themselves!

From Norman Redlich's February 28, 1964 memo to J. Lee Rankin:

" . . . there is in fact a strong probability that Marina Oswald is in fact a very different person - cold, calculating, avaricious, scornful of generosity, and capable of an extreme lack of sympathy in personal relationships. "

Further on:

"Neither you nor I have any desire to smear the reputation of any individual. We cannot ignore, however, that Marina Oswald has repeatedly lied to the Service, the FBI and this Commission on matters which are of vital concern to the people of this country and the world."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83#relPageId=132

Harold Weisberg called her "Scheherazade", referring to her own willingness to say whatever was required to save her own skin.

No one thinks she was a witting part of the assassination conspiracy. But she was (and I believe, as in the case of her white lies to John A. about a second Oswald, still is) willing to smear her late husband in any way necessary to get what she wanted - to stay and live in America. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=8FuCDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT29&dq=harold+weisberg+marina+oswald+scheherazade&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi87uX3n6HmAhWRwFkKHYhXANsQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=harold weisberg marina oswald scheherazade&f=false

4 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I talked to John Armstrong yesterday evening and again this morning. He said that his friend, a long time researcher in NYC, looked into the Gardos issue recently and discovered that there was a John Gardos living at 631 Rockaway(sp?) St. in Queens (a borough of New York City) in 1940.  This John Gardos’s parents were listed as Joe and Josephine Gardos.  Their two sons were Frank (7 years old) and John, 7 months old, suggesting that this John Gardos may also have been born in 1939, just like the son of Emil and Grace.

Gardos is not a very common name, and so this is quite a coincidence assuming it is true.  I haven’t been able to duplicate the results John’s friend (a very well known researcher) got in two quick searches of Census database front ends.

John also said that on one of his many visits with Marina she told him she didn’t believe there was a second Lee Harvey Oswald, but that they discussed the anonymous telephone call to the Tippits and John talked about the possible Hungarian connection. Marina said nothing about her husband owning a book by a Hungarian author, and nothing was said about a possible Hungarian connection for her former husband.  John has long believed that Marina knew nothing about the other LHO.

Jim,

Marina may have said nothing to John Armstrong about "Oswald's" copy of Tibor Kajan's "Circus Maximus", but there it is, listed on a reputable auction site in 2013 with a letter of provenance from Marina herself:

https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/social-sciences/-john-f-kennedy-lee-harvey-oswald-s-personal-books-total-2-items-/a/6106-38424.s

I can't conceive of a reasonable explanation for intelligence agencies to fabricate this evidence - they want to bury any leads into "Oswald's" real background, not highlight them (albeit however obscurely) in a public Dallas auction! 

Therefore, I think it is very likely that these books truly were once owned by our "Oswald", no matter what Marina later implied to John A.

Jim H.,

As you know, while I remain skeptical that little John Gardos grew up to be our "Oswald", it is not impossible, and therefore any research on this is legitimate. (Personally, I think it much more likely that our "Oswald" was briefly placed with Emil and Grace Gardos as a foster child in some sort of humanitarian effort to help resettle refugees/orphans from Eastern Europe just after WWII. And thus we've mistakenly inferred that the mysterious woman caller necessarily knew the correct relationship between the Gardos couple and "Oswald".)

That being said however, I'd like to know if anyone has checked the Ironwood Public Schools 1944/45 school year to see if there might be kindergarten records for little John Gardos. Those records probably no longer exist, but at this moment, we have no evidence that Emil Gardos, his wife Grace and son John were NOT living in Ironwood as of 1944/45. After all, the 1940 census tells us John Gardos was born in Ironwood, Michigan. Therefore, if extant, those kindergarten records would at least confirm that little John Gardos survived infancy.

I do believe the original FBI memo about the 11/30/63 phone call to Mrs. Jack Tippit (not the retyped, reformatted version, but the original) is worth perusing - on page two of the original, right in the middle of the page, is the name "Emile Kardos."

Someone at the FBI not only underlined the name, but also put a big asterisk right over the name "Emile Kardos". 

The FBI knew that the connection between our "Oswald" and Emil Gardos (regardless of whether it was biological) was very sensitive. 

So they buried it and corrupted the name. 

https://harveyandlee.net/Harvey Who/Tippit-FBI_Graphical.htm

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

John B:

In the absence of conclusive evidence regarding the beginning of the project, I am interested in knowing what theories they may have about it's origins. More arguments is not what I am looking for either, just more research on where Harvey came from and Marguerite's family history. Have been doing my own research and about their origins but have not been able to find any new leads.

 

As I originally discovered a few days ago (and immediately posted), our "Oswald" had taken the time and expense to buy an awfully obscure book: Tibor Kajan's "Circus Maximus", a collection of political cartoons from a dedicated Hungarian Communist Jew, a man who received multiple Kossuth award nominations.

Our "Oswald" shared an interest in professional cartoonists with . . . Mrs. Jack Tippit.

According to his NYT obituary from 1994, Jack Tippit (husband of the recipient of the phone call from the mysterious older woman) was . . . a professional cartoonist and the founder of the Museum of Cartoon Art in 1974.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/20/obituaries/jack-d-tippit-cartoonist-70.html

What's this have to do with the "Oswald" Project?

Well, the CIA financed artists, writers, movie-makers and cartoonists for years in an effort to turn the tide of public opinion in the Cold War. I find this passage (NYT story linked below) mighty telling: