Irv Kupcinet Bio on the Forum

[Kathleen Collins]

On this Forum, John Simkins has gone to the trouble of writing biographies of pertinent people in the Assassination. But one paragraph in Irv Kupcinet's bio must be changed, as it's not true!

Irv Kupcinet knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones Irv kept in contact with Ruby...

Irv never kept in contact with Ruby. When Ruby shot Oswald, Irv sprung into action, as Ruby was originally from Chicago.

and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy.

This is absolutely false. Irv knew nothing about the Assassination and called Paul Dorfman, connected with the mob, to ask about Ruby. (Dorman called him "Sparky.")

Jones argues that Irv passed this information on to his daughter Karyn.

Why in the name of God would he do that?

In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23...

She was 22.

was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Not Karyn. I believe this happened, as the FBI or phone company gave the story to the newspapers on the 23rd. But it was not Karyn Kupcinet. It was some other unfortunate woman. This is known as the Oxnard Call. Karyn went to Palm Springs for the weekend. The only thing she was upset about was breaking up with her boyfriend. Oxnard is 50 miles from her West Hollywood apartment. It would take her an hour to get there and an hour back. She didn't drive.

Kathy

Edited June 24, 2007 by Kathleen Collins

[Kathleen Collins]

This is known as the Oxnard Call

I was raised in Oxnard. Was there at the time. It wasn't me. Now we've narrowed that down some.

The story continues that they were able to trace the call and it came from a law practice in Oxnard. So there's the vision of a delirious woman, locked in an office, using the phone.

The story continues further that Bobby Kennedy went to the phone company in Oxnard on June 5, 1968 to get more info on this woman. I don't believe it. Bobby knew it was a conspiracy. The woman on the phone predicting the Assassination of his brother was obviously close to one of the conspirators. And I wouldn't be surprised if she died shortly after her misidentified phone call.

Do you remember where you were or what you were doing on Nov. 22, 1963? Do you remember hearing the story?

Kathy

[Kathleen Collins]

This is known as the Oxnard Call

I was raised in Oxnard. Was there at the time. It wasn't me. Now we've narrowed that down some.

I don't know how one would go about finding the identity of that woman, but I believe it happened. Another woman died in a similar manner as Karyn. Her name was Doris Helmts from San Mateo, which is quite a distance from Oxnard. But I don't have her obit. And I don't know what she died of. She was 35 years old, found on her couch, the small apartment a mess, a radio playing softly, apparently nothing taken and dead for about 3 days. That's all I know about her. I know someone in Vienna -- believe it or not -- who is trying to find out more about the case. It might have beenn natural causes, but you never know. She was discovered the same time Karyn was. And both their stories were in parallel columns on the same page of San Mateo Times, Dec 2, 1963.

Kathy

[James Richards]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Camarillo Ranch in the Oxnard area?

Also, if I remember correctly, a man by the name of Ray Sheehan was the manager of the telephone company at the time and gave a statement to the FBI. I wonder if he is still alive.

James

[Kathleen Collins]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Camarillo Ranch in the Oxnard area?

Also, if I remember correctly, a man by the name of Ray Sheehan was the manager of the telephone company at the time and gave a statement to the FBI. I wonder if he is still alive.

James

I have to look up Camarillo Ranch. It's near Ventura. Does your question have anything to do with the phone call?

I don't think Ray Sheehan is still alive. I don't think he had any more to tell.

Kathy

[James Richards]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Camarillo Ranch in the Oxnard area?

Also, if I remember correctly, a man by the name of Ray Sheehan was the manager of the telephone company at the time and gave a statement to the FBI. I wonder if he is still alive.

James

I have to look up Camarillo Ranch. It's near Ventura. Does your question have anything to do with the phone call?

I don't think Ray Sheehan is still alive. I don't think he had any more to tell.

Kathy

Kathy,

I think the Camarillo Ranch had some loose connections to what happened in Dallas.

That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed.

FWIW.

James

Edited June 26, 2007 by James Richards

[Kathleen Collins]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Camarillo Ranch in the Oxnard area?

Also, if I remember correctly, a man by the name of Ray Sheehan was the manager of the telephone company at the time and gave a statement to the FBI. I wonder if he is still alive.

James

I have to look up Camarillo Ranch. It's near Ventura. Does your question have anything to do with the phone call?

I don't think Ray Sheehan is still alive. I don't think he had any more to tell.

Kathy

Kathy,

I think the Camarillo Ranch had some loose connections to what happened in Dallas.

That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed.

FWIW.

James

Wow, this is so intriguing. I'm going to look more into the Camarillo Ranch. I noticed last night how many hits it had on Google and read something of its history. About the Skakel Bros, I read in a book on Bobby Kennedy -- and of course I can't remember which one -- that Bobby's male in-laws hated his guts because he would put on this macho exterior. Very competitive. Thank you for this new lead.

Kathy

[Kathleen Collins]

I was home in Oxnard on leave on 11/22/63. I remember I was going with a strict Catholic girl and it really screwed up my plans for a big weekend.

Having lived in Oxnard, Ventura County from 1952, til I joined the service in '63, I never really heard of a "Camarillo Ranch." The town of Camarillo, about 5 miles from Oxnard, was probably located on the old Spanish Granted Camarillo ranch...JMO.

I'd also heard that Sirhan had been involved with a preacher from Oxnard prior to the RFK killing. Supposedly the preacher had a church on J Street in Oxnard. I never could figure out what church that might have been. I read about it in one of the books on RFK, and thought it was interesting as Osborne was also supposedly a preacher.

Also, this may be of some information...both Bell Aircraft and LTV (Chance Vaught at the time) had operations at Pt. Mugu, about 10 miles from Oxnard. My Dad worked for both companies.

This is interesting. And I'm glad you and James responded to this. I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection. Have you heard of one? And who is Osbourne?

Kathy

[Kathleen Collins]

And who is Osbourne?

Wasn't there a preacher of some sort named Osborne that sat next to Ozzie on his bus trip to Mexico? A dude of rather neferious character?

I had read in one of the RFK books that Sirhan was supposedly acquainted with a preacher from Oxnard. Just thought the connection w/Sirhan and the JFK phone call from Oxnard were interesting.

I will look up the bus ride Lee Oswald (or Donald O. Norton or Ralph Geb) took to Mexico in Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong. In Google Maps I discovered that it takes 20 minutes from the heart of Oxnard to Camarillo Ranch in Camarillo, CA 93012. But I am having trouble finding anything negative about it. It's a place couples reserve for weddings.

Kathy

[Terry Mauro]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Camarillo Ranch in the Oxnard area?

Also, if I remember correctly, a man by the name of Ray Sheehan was the manager of the telephone company at the time and gave a statement to the FBI. I wonder if he is still alive.

James

I have to look up Camarillo Ranch. It's near Ventura. Does your question have anything to do with the phone call?

I don't think Ray Sheehan is still alive. I don't think he had any more to tell.

Kathy

Kathy,

I think the Camarillo Ranch had some loose connections to what happened in Dallas.

That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed.

FWIW.

James

I was home in Oxnard on leave on 11/22/63. I remember I was going with a strict Catholic girl and it really screwed up my plans for a big weekend.

Having lived in Oxnard, Ventura County from 1952, til I joined the service in '63, I never really heard of a "Camarillo Ranch." The town of Camarillo, about 5 miles from Oxnard, was probably located on the old Spanish Granted Camarillo ranch...JMO.

I'd also heard that Sirhan had been involved with a preacher from Oxnard prior to the RFK killing. Supposedly the preacher had a church on J Street in Oxnard. I never could figure out what church that might have been. I read about it in one of the books on RFK, and thought it was interesting as Osborne was also supposedly a preacher.

Also, this may be of some information...both Bell Aircraft and LTV (Chance Vaught at the time) had operations at Pt. Mugu, about 10 miles from Oxnard. My Dad worked for both companies.

**********************************************************

"Having lived in Oxnard, Ventura County from 1952, til I joined the service in '63, I never really heard of a "Camarillo Ranch." The town of Camarillo, about 5 miles from Oxnard, was probably located on the old Spanish Granted Camarillo ranch...JMO."

Camarillo is in Ventura County, off Hwy 101. It's a farming community with beautiful acres of corn, vegetables, strawberries, citrus and fruit orchards, and tall eucalyptus trees. It was also known as the town that housed Camarillo State Prison for the criminally insane. I believe the prison may have been decommissioned almost a decade ago. My boyfriend, Cam and I used to take his Harley 1958 Panhead, or his 1976 Electroglide, riding all through that area to Pt. Mugu, the Channel Islands, on out through the Oxnard/Ventura line, and on up to Montecito and Santa Barbara. Lovely area, Ventura County. I used to live in T.O. [Thousand Oaks, for those unfamiliar with California].

[James Richards]

Terry,

If I remember correctly, a fruit loop by the name of Warren Swanson, who may have been a past guest at the asylum burst into the courtroom where the Jimmy Hoffa trial was being held in 1962 and shot him with a harmless pellet gun. I would love to have seen the look on Hoffa's face.

Kathy, there is nothing negative about the ranch itself. It's more about the extended family of people who controlled its interests back in the early 1960's.

James

[Kathleen Collins]

Kathy, there is nothing negative about the ranch itself. It's more about the extended family of people who controlled its interests back in the early 1960's.

James

I have found some info on it and have started a new thread called Camarillo Ranch.

Kathy

[Terry Mauro]

I was home in Oxnard on leave on 11/22/63. I remember I was going with a strict Catholic girl and it really screwed up my plans for a big weekend.

Having lived in Oxnard, Ventura County from 1952, til I joined the service in '63, I never really heard of a "Camarillo Ranch." The town of Camarillo, about 5 miles from Oxnard, was probably located on the old Spanish Granted Camarillo ranch...JMO.

I'd also heard that Sirhan had been involved with a preacher from Oxnard prior to the RFK killing. Supposedly the preacher had a church on J Street in Oxnard. I never could figure out what church that might have been. I read about it in one of the books on RFK, and thought it was interesting as Osborne was also supposedly a preacher.

Also, this may be of some information...both Bell Aircraft and LTV (Chance Vaught at the time) had operations at Pt. Mugu, about 10 miles from Oxnard. My Dad worked for both companies.

This is interesting. And I'm glad you and James responded to this. I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection. Have you heard of one? And who is Osbourne?

Kathy

***********************************************************8

"I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection."

Spahn Ranch is nestled between the western side of Box Canyon and the Santa Susanna Pass Road, which is at the Ventura/Los Angeles County line, bordered by Simi Valley on the west and the city of Chatsworth to the east. Box canyon was a favorite film location for the old Hopalong Cassidy movies and serials. The rock formations are spectacular.

Rocket Dyne and Hughes had, and probably still have, a lot of acreage out in that area, cordoned off by high chain linked fences, topped with barbed wire on some of the more remote sections of the property, surveillance cameras, and many DANGER NO TRESPASSING signs strategically placed throughout, from what I can remember.

I also lived in Box Canyon in the late 1970's, before moving to T.O. in the early 1980's.

[Kathleen Collins]

Also, this may be of some information...both Bell Aircraft and LTV (Chance Vaught at the time) had operations at Pt. Mugu, about 10 miles from Oxnard. My Dad worked for both companies.

This is interesting. And I'm glad you and James responded to this. I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection. Have you heard of one? And who is Osbourne?

Kathy

***********************************************************8

Spahn Ranch is nestled between the western side of Box Canyon and the Santa Susanna Pass Road, which is at the Ventura/Los Angeles County line, bordered by Simi Valley on the west and the city of Chatsworth to the east. Box canyon was a favorite film location for the old Hopalong Cassidy movies and serials. The rock formations are spectacular.

Rocket Dyne and Hughes had, and probably still have, a lot of acreage out in that area, cordoned off by high chain linked fences, topped with barbed wire on some of the more remote sections of the property, surveillance cameras, and many DANGER NO TRESPASSING signs strategically placed throughout, from what I can remember.

I also lived in Box Canyon in the late 1970's, before moving to T.O. in the early 1980's.

What must they be doing out there? Another "Area 51"? MK/ULTRA stuff?

FWIW. Although Area 51 is not located where we've been talking about, the reason you can see it from Google Earth is because nobody is there anymore. They moved to another section of the desert. I know a woman and her husband who drove around out there lost and they could see air vents in the mountains. But no one came after them. If you look it up on Google Earth, you'll see there are a lot of Air Force Bases around there. Also, from what I've read, the old Area 51 is radioactive. So much for spooks.

Kathy

[Terry Mauro]

Also, this may be of some information...both Bell Aircraft and LTV (Chance Vaught at the time) had operations at Pt. Mugu, about 10 miles from Oxnard. My Dad worked for both companies.

This is interesting. And I'm glad you and James responded to this. I was thinking of Camarillo Ranch and I just thought of MK/ULTRA and the Manson family at Spahn Ranch. Probably no connection. Have you heard of one? And who is Osbourne?

Kathy

***********************************************************8

Spahn Ranch is nestled between the western side of Box Canyon and the Santa Susanna Pass Road, which is at the Ventura/Los Angeles County line, bordered by Simi Valley on the west and the city of Chatsworth to the east. Box canyon was a favorite film location for the old Hopalong Cassidy movies and serials. The rock formations are spectacular.

Rocket Dyne and Hughes had, and probably still have, a lot of acreage out in that area, cordoned off by high chain linked fences, topped with barbed wire on some of the more remote sections of the property, surveillance cameras, and many DANGER NO TRESPASSING signs strategically placed throughout, from what I can remember.

I also lived in Box Canyon in the late 1970's, before moving to T.O. in the early 1980's.

What must they be doing out there? Another "Area 51"? MK/ULTRA stuff?

FWIW. Although Area 51 is not located where we've been talking about, the reason you can see it from Google Earth is because nobody is there anymore. They moved to another section of the desert. I know a woman and her husband who drove around out there lost and they could see air vents in the mountains. But no one came after them. If you look it up on Google Earth, you'll see there are a lot of Air Force Bases around there. Also, from what I've read, the old Area 51 is radioactive. So much for spooks.

Kathy

**************************************************************

"What must they be doing out there? Another "Area 51"? MK/ULTRA

stuff?"

Seriously, I think they're noted for aircraft parts, assemblage, rocket science, the usual milspecs required in the manufacture and production of government/corporate issued contracts for materials and acquisition.

What and where was "Area 51" supposed to be?