Alan Healy Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Why do both these guys have to be " on the embankment" or "the stairs "area""?Why can't they be further back? Like here for example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm3neVe8Nlw...20911Revolution I was actually after Miles' thoughts but anyway.. Go ask Groden if there is a flash of light between the wall & fence in the Nix film. This should be interesting... Alan, I take it that you are suggesting that the man could have disappeared from Bowers' view behind the short leg of the fence. That's very interesting. Please confirm that you have this in mind. (I have some additional thoughts.) Sorry Miles, I honestly hadn't noticed it until after I read what you said above but, in Groden's '91 view, the short leg of the fence is at a slight angle from the tower. If it was the same in '63 it would be possible to disappear without heading around to the front of it yes. Well spotted. I just really wanted to know why you are so stuck on the area of the stairs & the embankment. Is it only because of that one line, "disappeared behind the fence"? Or was there something else? I think we should move away from taking Bowers comments too literally anyway, let's at least try to be a little more flexible. I've been trying to imagine losing sight of a man whilst he walks behind the true north side of the fence but even with the parked vehicles(& probably next to no foilage cover) it's too hard to do. If they were behind the fence in the first place, why not just say so? Bowers:"There were two men behind the fence" Lane: Thank you! I know exactly where you mean. Bowers: And.. uh... one of them disappeared from time to time Lane: Where? Bowers: Behind the fence lol Lane: lol Bill brought up(in his usual style) the issue of the other photos not showing anyone there which I'll cover asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 (edited) If they were behind the fence in the first place, why not just say so? Maybe Bowers was afraid that some bone-head might get all balled up in understanding what the word "behind" meant. Instead Bowers used terms like "HIGH GROUND" and "INCLINE". The north side of the fence being the high ground and the south side of the fence leading down to the street as the incline. One other note, Are you sure that Bowers actually saw a cycle try and jump the curb or did he assume that it did? The reason I ask is that Haygood dismounted the bike and put up the kick-stand. Surely if Bowers could see that happen, then there was no reason to assume the rider tried climbing the embankment with his motorcycle. Any logical well thought out thoughts on this??? Another point is that Bowers also considered the cycle rider being responsible for the smoke he saw. If Bowers believed he saw the rider try and jump the curb and head in the direction of the two men he saw - wouldn't that be the area up the embankment between the Hudson tree and the next tree west of it???? And before you say something silly, let me introduce what you have attempted to sell. If Bowers had a clear enough view to see Haygood try and jump a curb with his cycle, then why did he not know that the cycle really didn't come most of the way up the embankment because after all, if he could see such a feat as a curb jumping down over the hill and at the north curb, then surely Bowers had even a better view of anyone coming up the incline on their cycle so to be headed towards the area west of the shelter - right! Bill Miller Edited October 22, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 The Nix film shows the the gap between the fence & shelter for around five seconds. There does not appear to be anyone there in that opening during that period. If there was we would see their outline clearly. That's five seconds out of the four minutes Bowers covers. Willis5 & Betzner3 cover a period of half a second. Make of that what you will. Moorman5 would not show anyone standing up close to the north end of the fence but you could ask yourself, why would anyone stand there anyway? What's the point? The flash between the wall & fence in Nix. http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3127/grodensnixon3.gif . It's above the wall but way below the fence. It's not strictly on-topic but I would like to see Bill finally admit to where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 It's above the wall but way below the fence.It's not strictly on-topic but I would like to see Bill finally admit to where it is. I thought we covered this stuff a long time ago after Groden and I took his best 35 MM Nix print to a lab to have it analyzed. After JFK's head exploded we had seen someone take off moving to their left - our right. Anyone moving through a sunspot would make a type of a flash as they passed through the sun spot. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 (edited) If you look at it from Bowers POV(& why wouldn't you?) the only time Haygood could of been seen from the tower was when the man attempted to mount the curb on his bike & fell on his arse in the process.Where did this happen? From Bowers' POV, right where he saw the two men & right where there are two trees like Bowers said. Where is the "confusion"? Alan, I think the confusion for you and Miles is that neither of you know the plaza well enough to know what you are looking at. Two things I want to point out that you are going to have to concede to. (You may want to sit down for this one ...) The street that you think is Elm Street in Groden's photo is "COMMERCE STREET". How do I know this to be so ... because there is a sidewalk on its south side and only Commerce Street had one. That means that Bowers cannot see Main Street, nor the south pasture, nor any of Elm Street, thus he could not have seen Haygood until he saw Haygood once he got high enough on the incline so that Lee could track Haygood's white helmet over the fence. Now I'll leave you and Miles to your mistake for a while so that you two can regroup and try it again. Bill Miller Edited October 22, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 ? It's above the wall but way below the fence.It's not strictly on-topic but I would like to see Bill finally admit to where it is. Alan, Plaid ghosts & gun smoke gliding in the Nix shadows between the fence & the retaining wall, which Bowers saw? As Halloween approaches? Some may tremble & quake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 It's above the wall but way below the fence.It's not strictly on-topic but I would like to see Bill finally admit to where it is. I thought we covered this stuff a long time ago after Groden and I took his best 35 MM Nix print to a lab to have it analyzed. After JFK's head exploded we had seen someone take off moving to their left - our right. Anyone moving through a sunspot would make a type of a flash as they passed through the sun spot. Bill Miller Who is "we"? You always maintained the flash was up at the fence, you just said so again today. Now it's a sunspot & you've seen evidence of "a person" running away through it?? That's one person running away & one diving/falling to the ground, two people behind the wall, is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 It's above the wall but way below the fence.It's not strictly on-topic but I would like to see Bill finally admit to where it is. I thought we covered this stuff a long time ago after Groden and I took his best 35 MM Nix print to a lab to have it analyzed. After JFK's head exploded we had seen someone take off moving to their left - our right. Anyone moving through a sunspot would make a type of a flash as they passed through the sun spot. Bill Miller Who is "we"? You always maintained the flash was up at the fence, you just said so again today. Now it's a sunspot & you've seen evidence of "a person" running away through it?? That's one person running away & one diving/falling to the ground, two people behind the wall, is that correct? Hey Alan, Miller didn't know the street was Commerce. He thought it was Elm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 (edited) If you look at it from Bowers POV(& why wouldn't you?) the only time Haygood could of been seen from the tower was when the man attempted to mount the curb on his bike & fell on his arse in the process.Where did this happen? From Bowers' POV, right where he saw the two men & right where there are two trees like Bowers said. Where is the "confusion"? Alan, I think the confusion for you and Miles is that neither of you know the plaza well enough to know what you are looking at. Two things I want to point out that you are going to have to concede to. (You may want to sit down for this one ...) The street that you think is Elm Street in Groden's photo is "COMMERCE STREET". How do I know this to be so ... because there is a sidewalk on its south side and only Commerce Street had one. That means that Bowers cannot see Main Street, nor the south pasture, nor any of Elm Street, thus he could not have seen Haygood until he saw Haygood once he got high enough on the incline so that Lee could track Haygood's white helmet over the fence. Now I'll leave you and Miles to your mistake for a while so that you two can regroup and try it again. Bill Miller LMAO. Go ask Robert or Gary for petes sake, do not just rely on the part of that image which you think is a sidewalk to determine your thoughts. If you think Bowers was lieing when he said the limo came into view you have either totally lost it or your correct & we can throw everything Bowers said into the John. Classic thread indeed! EDIT. Wow. I went & looked, I can see Elm thru the pergola windows. Okay then, Bowers couldn't see Haygood, he couldn't see the limo & so odds are he didn't see two men either, his testimony & interview are worthless. He was so scared he started making crap up. Edited October 22, 2007 by Alan Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 If they were behind the fence in the first place, why not just say so? Maybe Bowers was afraid that some bone-head might get all balled up in understanding what the word "behind" meant. Instead Bowers used terms like "HIGH GROUND" and "INCLINE". The north side of the fence being the high ground and the south side of the fence leading down to the street as the incline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Healy Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 (edited) Wow. Edited October 22, 2007 by Alan Healy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Wow. Alan, Miller suggests that I did not know the street was Commerce. Why? Why this sudden triumphal revelation at this late date? I put it to you, Alan, that Miller just now discovered this fundamental. This does not affect Bowers testimony, mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Wow. Gotta see Elmo ! LINK: -- Image of Elmo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 Hey Alan,Miller didn't know the street was Commerce. He thought it was Elm. Miles - are you just trolling again? What made you think that I thought Commerce Street was Elm for it was Alan who said that Bowers had a LOS to Haygood in the opening. Please explain yourself. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 (edited) Who is "we"?You always maintained the flash was up at the fence, you just said so again today. Now it's a sunspot & you've seen evidence of "a person" running away through it?? That's one person running away & one diving/falling to the ground, two people behind the wall, is that correct? Alan, you must purposely try and get things wrong ... Miles has set quite an example for you to follow. If you go back through the threads that covered this stuff - I have maintained that only Gordon Arnold was the guy between the wall and the fence. I have always said that Gordon went to his left upon JFK being shot and I have supported Yarborough's observation that for what ever reason, Ralph believed he was seeing an infantry man trained as what to do in combat because Gordon dove to the ground. I would think that to a reasonably intelligent person that they'd understand that Arnold would have turned to one side and then moved away from where he was standing. Whether this took one step or two before hitting the dirt - I do not know. I can also tell you that the 35 MM film that I saw at the lab are the best images of the Nix film that Groden has. That particular print is not the copy that Groden used on his DVD. That particular copy on the DVD is inferior. If it is your opinion that after the kill shot to JFK that two/maybe three flashes from a gun went off beyond the wall and did so without anyone knowing it, then you are in la-la land IMO. Bill Miller Edited October 23, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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