Madeleine McCann

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Dave,

That is uncanny. I swear that's the precise argument I've used since the beginning re: Wayne & Waynetta

Gary

The essence of this position, and those of other "fine" minds on this forum, would seem to be that the media would have been quicker to condemn the parents had they been stupid and working class - better still ugly as well.

Didn't a convicted paedophile from Switzerland commit suicide soon after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?

That proves it surely

Another victory for rational analysis I think not.

Andy,

I am certainly not a fine mind. Yes, my conviction is that had the abduction of a child occurred in the custody of say a couple of young track-suited chavs from South Shields whilst holidaying in Ibiza - or in fact nipping across the road to their local - then I truly and sincerely believe meaningful questions and, in fact, accusations of negligence and beyond would have been made in the media.

Do you feel the McCanns should be condemned for their part?

Any media criticism of the parenting skills of the McCanns has been sorely missing - plenty for those bungling, inept, just not British, Portuguese Police though - to read the British media you'd think, at times, they were the root cause and at fault for the whole abduction/murder/accidental death of Madeline.

This tragedy was very easily avoided, and I'm sure the McCann's are suffering greatly. Unfortunately, though, because of similarly slipshod Portuguese media reports the McCanns will never be truly innocent now in many people's eyes. If the prosecutor cites lack of evidence for not bringing charges then the presumption of innocence will be stained. Many people will hear 'we know it was you, but just can't prove it'.

The media is a very powerful tool. This time though I think their human interest 'summer story' has spiralled into a bit of a monster for a media, struggling to come to terms with the consequences of the possible guilt of the McCann's.

I sincerely hope they have not fooled everyone. I hope also that they are innocent of the accusations in the Portuguese media.

[Dave Greer]

Dave,

That is uncanny. I swear that's the precise argument I've used since the beginning re: Wayne & Waynetta

Gary

I harbour suspicions that that may well have been the case. I vaguely recall similar cases where "chav" single mums had gone away for a week and left the 16 year old in charge of the 12 year old, to be greeted by a storm of outrage in the tabloids and a week at her Majesty's pleasure upon their return. Different details, but it smacked me of singling someone out mainly for their status (or rather lack of it).

The essence of this position, and those of other "fine" minds on this forum, would seem to be that the media would have been quicker to condemn the parents had they been stupid and working class - better still ugly as well.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if that had been the case.

Didn't a convicted paedophile from Switzerland commit suicide soon after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?

That proves it surely

Another victory for rational analysis I think not.

I agree - a complete non-sequitur.

[Don Jeffries]

Gary/Dave,

You both make some great points. I think we are in agreement that the public and media treatment of the McCann's (other than in the tabloids) has been very sympathetic. In the U.S., we saw the same thing in the Jon Benet Ramsey case, where suspicion naturally fell upon the only logical suspects- the parents, but all the talking heads on t.v. were reluctant to point the finger at them. Even in the Natalee Holloway case, where an attractive young high school senior from an upper class suburb in Alabama, vanished without a trace during a graduation trip to Aruba, the chaperones on the trip, who certainly should have been questioned about exactly what it was they were chaperoning, were given a free pass by the media. Also, her fellow students were allowed to leave Aruba, even her best friends, and despite hardly acting grieved during their numerous t.v. interviews, and issuing conflicting statements, have not had their own motives questioned by anyone in the mainstream media. Instead, all attention has been focused on three local Aruban young men (two of them nonwhite), who were supposedly the last ones with her that night. I think the fact that all the Alabama students and chaperones were white and from a wealthy part of the country certainly effected the way the story was covered. I believe that if a group of poor inner city youths attended a graduation somewhere, and the chaperones allowed one of them to disappear without knowing a thing about it, then they would be questioned just a bit more strongly than their upper class counterparts. Certainly, any fellow students and friends in that situation, who issued conflicting statements would have their motives questioned.

Anyhow, good discussion.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Gary/Dave,

You both make some great points. I think we are in agreement that the public and media treatment of the McCann's (other than in the tabloids) has been very sympathetic. In the U.S., we saw the same thing in the Jon Benet Ramsey case, where suspicion naturally fell upon the only logical suspects- the parents, but all the talking heads on t.v. were reluctant to point the finger at them. Even in the Natalee Holloway case, where an attractive young high school senior from an upper class suburb in Alabama, vanished without a trace during a graduation trip to Aruba, the chaperones on the trip, who certainly should have been questioned about exactly what it was they were chaperoning, were given a free pass by the media. Also, her fellow students were allowed to leave Aruba, even her best friends, and despite hardly acting grieved during their numerous t.v. interviews, and issuing conflicting statements, have not had their own motives questioned by anyone in the mainstream media. Instead, all attention has been focused on three local Aruban young men (two of them nonwhite), who were supposedly the last ones with her that night. I think the fact that all the Alabama students and chaperones were white and from a wealthy part of the country certainly effected the way the story was covered. I believe that if a group of poor inner city youths attended a graduation somewhere, and the chaperones allowed one of them to disappear without knowing a thing about it, then they would be questioned just a bit more strongly than their upper class counterparts. Certainly, any fellow students and friends in that situation, who issued conflicting statements would have their motives questioned.

Anyhow, good discussion.

The media cannot usually be trusted to fulfill their role in society. They have to many pressure points that can be pressed to modify their plans.

A case in point was the documentary TV film commissioned by Yorkshire Television that was shot and cut and then, at the last minute - spiked and never aired (Channel Four, from memory was the broadcaster). Pressure from the States I was told. I have a copy of it somewhere here. John DeCamp's book of the same title is quite informative about the blackmail uses can be put to (or targeted on) by the CIA.

David

[Don Jeffries]

David,

I think you are probably referring to "Conspiracy Of Silence," which was scheduled to air on the Discovery Channel back in the mid-1990ss, but was pulled at the last minute due to political pressure. I've seen it, and it is very powerful stuff. For those who are interested, type the title in on Google, and you should find someplace where it can be viewed online.

[Guest David Guyatt]

David,

I think you are probably referring to "Conspiracy Of Silence," which was scheduled to air on the Discovery Channel back in the mid-1990ss, but was pulled at the last minute due to political pressure. I've seen it, and it is very powerful stuff. For those who are interested, type the title in on Google, and you should find someplace where it can be viewed online.

Don,

The one I have is definitely "Franklin Cover-Up" commissioned by Yorkshire TV and due for broadcast on a terrestial channel (Channel 4 I thought but it might've been due out on ITV). The copy I have was a cutting room final minus the advertising inserts.

I took a peek at the blurb for "Conspiracy of Silence" you mentioned, and we're definitely talking about two different documentaries. I've not seen the latter but will try to do so.

David

[John Simkin]

A recent survey shows that 70% believe the McCanns are guilty of being involved in the disappearance of Madeleine. It is commonly believed that Kate McCann killed her daughter by accidentally giving her an overdose of sleeping pills and that her husband helped her dispose of her body.

This theory is based on leaks from the Portuguese police inquiry. For example, apparently the police have several witnesses that show that of the McCann's party, only Dr Russell O'Brien and Dr Matthew Oldfield left the dinner table that evening. In other words, their group of friends are telling lies in order to cover-up went on that evening.

Two other witnesses have refuted the testimony of Jane Tanner, another member of the McCann group, who claimed she saw a man carrying a child rushing from the Ocean Club complex at around 9.15 pm on 3rd May.

However, opinions held on the McCann case has little to do with evidence. It is more to do with class prejudice. The serious press have been very supportive of Kate and Gerry McCann. Their middle-class readership, especially those under 40, are very sympathetic to their plight. Most of them have no doubt left their children while they party into the night on holiday. Their view of parenthood is working long hours in order that they can buy the things their children need. Time is the one thing that they are reluctant to give.

The masses on the other hand are far less sympathetic. That is not to say that they do not leave their children to enjoy themselves. However, this case gives them the opportunity to have a go at the "toffs".

It is not unusual for major crime stories to divide the country on class lines. For example, see the case of Caroline Luard.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11057

[Guest David Guyatt]

In view of the local police record on abductions of British children in that part of Portugal -- black eyes of one Brit mother who "fell down the stairs" not-with-standing (do you really get black eyes falling down stairs, or you you get bruises on arms, elbows, hands, knees etc?), can anything that is leaked/spun out of the Portugese investigation be relied upon?

David

[Christopher Hall]

I am getting the feeling that Portugal's criminal investigative capabilities are pretty similar to those of Aruba.

[Guest David Guyatt]

One might argue that the principal difference is that Aruba is (allegedly) owned by the mafia, whereas Portugal is owned by a wealthy elite who have a range of unpleasant tastes, as detailed below (my emphases).

Shades of Belgium's Marc Dutroux. Wholesale abuse inside "Boy's orphanages" by government officials and others with rather more clout and protection, reappear with sickening regularity in these cases.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...,848412,00.html

Portugal's elite linked to paedophile ring

Abuse was reportedly going on at Lisbon orphanage for 20 years

Giles Tremlett in Lisbon

Wednesday November 27, 2002

The Guardian

A scandal over a paedophile ring run from a state orphanage gripped Portugal yesterday as it threatened to engulf diplomats, media personalities and senior politicians.

Photographs of unnamed senior government officials with young boys from Lisbon's Casa Pia orphanage were among the evidence reportedly available to police after they arrested a former orphanage employee called Carlos Silvino.

A number of former residents, and the mother of one boy who is still there, have denounced sexual attacks on children at what is known as Lisbon's most famous orphanage.

Mr Silvino, it was claimed, abused children himself and procured boys for a powerful group of clients.

He has publicly denied the allegations and was expected to repeat that denial at a closed-door bail hearing in Lisbon yesterday.

What has most shocked the Portuguese have been the revelations that systematic sexual abuse of children at the home had allegedly been going on for more than 20 years and had been known to police and other authorities for most of that time.

A former president, General Ramalho Eanes, was allegedly among those who knew about abuse at the home but failed to stop it.

The identity of the mysterious group of powerful paedophiles remained a secret yesterday, with only one person prepared to admit she knew at least some of the names.

Former secretary of state for families, Teresa Costa Macedo, said she had sent a dossier containing photographs and testimonies from children to the police 20 years ago but they had done nothing about it, while she was subjected to a campaign of threats.

"He [silvino] was just one element in a huge paedophile network that involved important people in our country," Mrs Costa Macedo explained in a newspaper interview. "It wasn't just him. He was a procurer of children for well-known people who range from diplomats and politicians to people linked to the media."

The material sent to the police, which yesterday appeared to have been lost, was damning proof of the activities of the paedophile ring, Mrs Costa Macedo said.

"There are photographs, an account of the methods used to spirit children out of the orphanage and testimonies of a number of children," she explained.

Mrs Costa Macedo said that many of the photographs were found at the house of a Portuguese diplomat in the town of Estoril, 20 miles from Lisbon. Four children who had gone missing from the orphanage were discovered at the house, where they had spent several days allegedly under lock and key.

President Eanes was introduced to five boys who told him of the abuse occurring at the orphanage in 1980 but failed to act on it, according to Mrs Costa Macedo.

There was no suggestion that General Eanes, a popular and respected figure who did not comment on the allegations yesterday, was involved in the paedophile ring.

Portuguese police insisted yesterday they had no record of the documents sent to them by Mrs Costa Macedo.

She said she had been the target of a campaign of intimidation to make her stop investigating the case.

"I received anonymous threats, by phone and post. They said they would kill me, flay me and a lot of other things," she said.

That campaign had started again yesterday, she said, with threatening phone calls made to her home.

Portugal has increasingly been under the scrutiny of anti-paedophile groups who have denounced its lax laws and uninterested courts for creating a paedophiles' paradise in Europe.

Belgian and Dutch paedophile groups are reported to have operated in Portugal, with foreigners travelling to the island of Madeira to seek out young children.

Investigators from the Swiss-based Innocence in Danger group, which claims children regularly disappear from the poorer streets of Portuguese towns and cities, say they too have been harassed and threatened.

Mr Silvino claimed his accusers were making up their allegations. "It is all lies," he said.

The orphanage's director and deputy director were sacked on Monday as the government pledged to clear up the case as soon as possible.

[Guest David Guyatt]

In view of yesterday's news on the McCann story, you have to ask yourself what is going on here. It seems evident to me that there is something more sinister lurking in the background to this matter than merely a policeman's turf war. I begin to wonder if the appointment of the spooky CRG to assist the McCann's was an arms length British government idea...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...2/wmaddy302.xml

Yesterday's Telegraph:

Madeleine McCann chief detective sacked

By Aislinn Simpson in Praia da Luz

Last Updated: 2:22am BST 03/10/2007

The Portuguese detective leading the Madeleine McCann investigation has been sacked from the inquiry after launching an astonishing public attack on his British counterparts.

# Police chief accuses parents of hindering inquiry

# In full: The Madeleine McCann case

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral, 47, was dismissed from the position by the national director of the Judicial Police.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral

Sacked: Goncalo Amaral

He had accused British detectives of only chasing leads Gerry and Kate McCann want followed up.

The move came after Portugal's Justice Minister Alberto Costa stepped into the row by insisting there is "fruitful cooperation" between the two countries' police forces over the inquiry.

Mr Costa said Portuguese police intend "to increase the collaboration" with their British counterparts and that the important thing is "to concentrate on the job and not on the comments" made by Mr Amaral.

Mr Amaral, who was jointly in charge of the inquiry, was also dismissed from his post as the head of the Judicial Police in the Algarve town of Portimao.

The 47-year-old detective not only laid into police but also attacked the McCanns, accusing them of "creating and working on" lines of inquiry which they then pass onto Leicestershire Police to investigate.

Mr Amaral, who headed the Policia Judiciaria in the nearby town of Portimao and is himself under investigation for allegedly concealing evidence about an alleged assault on the mother of another missing child, was speaking to the daily newspaper Diario de Noticias.

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The paper said the detective, who has come under fire in the British press for his "boozy" three-hour lunches and allegedly failing to investigate some of the tip-offs his 30-strong team of officers have received, was in an "explosive and indignant" mood during the brief interview.

Sources said his departure follows five months of gripes about the British police involved in the case.

A family friend said it was "just plain wrong" that Kate and Gerry, both 39-year-old doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, were seeking to exert any influence on the investigation, adding that British police were only involved to act as a liaison between the family and Portuguese detectives.

And one of the McCanns' two Portuguese lawyers, Carlos Pinto Abreu, told Lisbon radio station TSF that Mr Amaral's comments were "in very poor taste" and "unhelpful to the investigation".

"The British police have only been working on that which the McCann couple want them to and which is most convenient for them," he said.

"The have only investigated tips and information developed and worked on for the McCanns, forgetting that the couple are formal suspects in the death of their daughter Madeleine."

Officially, Portuguese detectives say they appreciate British help and expertise - particularly forensic - but unofficially claim they feel patronised and bullied.

Leicestershire Police were reluctant to wade into the developing row, only saying they would "continue to support the Portuguese investigation".

The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell was equally cautious, saying: "Kate and Gerry consistently said that they wish to cooperate with the Portuguese authorities in the hunt for Madeleine and that remains the case."

Mr Amaral has reportedly investigated only two child murders in his 26-year police career and he is facing a criminal hearing for allegedly concealing evidence, after a woman jailed for the murder of her daughter claimed police officers tortured her into making a confession.

Leonor Cipriano, 36, claims she was forced to kneel on glass ashtrays with a bag over her head as police repeatedly hit her during almost 48 hours of questioning.

She is serving 16 years for the murder of her eight-year-old daughter Joana, even though the body has never been found and she has since retracted her statement.

Mr Amaral, a father-of-three, strenuously denies covering up the alleged abuse said to have been carried out by three of his colleagues.